Re: [30-05-05] Layout update
Hi, John Jawed wrote: I've tried to amend to the best of my ability the resizing issues mentioned earlier. I think, if you do not know much about CSS layouts, that you should expect some type of distortion at some unrealistically small resolutions (less than 800x600). Try to use a fixed width for the left and right columns. CSS layouts are not suitable for columns, they are built to be fluid It gets tricky. Again, all feedback is appreciated and looked forward to. I would like to have bigger characters. They become pretty small on a 1280*768 with only 10". Do not use px for the character size, use pt and you get the same character size independent of the screen resolution. I also use mm for the unit. This is the same story. No matter what resolution the screen has, 10mm are 10 mm. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4
Hi, I do not think that this guy is that wrong. It was not the best move to declare 5.3 usable for production. Not even 5.4. It is not a single major problem in there, it is the number of little, little problems which can run people crazy who have to keep a web- or any other server up and running. Even upgrading to 5.4 was not 100% perfect for me. 99,9% is not enough if a company waits behind your back to start work. Do not get me wrong. I think the problems with FreeBSD 5.x are real minor things, only the label 'production' is what bothers. One more round with 4.11 as production and at least 5.3 with some other sticker would have been better for FreeBSD's reputation. It is not the technical guys who decide finally which operating system is used in a company. But those guys take this kind of articles as a base for a 'no' to the usage of FreeBSD. Erich Neal E. Westfall wrote: Anybody have any thoughts on this review? http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/2153257&tid=8 ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4
Hi, Astrodog wrote: On 6/3/05, Christian Weisgerber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Liam J. Foy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jem Matzan is known for poor reviews throughout *BSD. Is there anybody known for good reviews? If you aren't familier enough with something to evaluate it, you shouldn't review it. Just as I wouldn't write a review of Mac OSX at Yes, but 99% of all reviews are written by people who do not care to have a clue. Aren't most review written by people who's main skill is writing and not the the skill needed to do the review? Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4
Hi, M. Goodell wrote: After reading this review and seeing the comment at the bottom that reads: What review? Now, the fact is that "all dogs have fleas" - but I think for someone to state FreeBSD 5.3 / 5.4 are not ready for prime time is not accurate, at least not in my case. It does not get any more "Prime Time" than what we have done with FreeBSD. For us, the proof is in the pudding. I am glad to have FreeBSD out there working so well for us and I am proud to slap my "Powered By FreeBSD" stickers on all three systems. Yes, all dogs have fleas. But how long stay the fleas on the dogs? Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4
Hi, Peter Kieser wrote: Erich Dollansky wrote: Hi, M. Goodell wrote: After reading this review and seeing the comment at the bottom that reads: What review? http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/2153257&tid=8 This one again. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Fleas & Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4
Hi, M. Goodell wrote: Mr Dollansky, I would hope you are not trolling in here to advocate the use of Linux as some "magic bullet" and answer to all of our server problems. What I meant by the statement "all dogs have fleas" is that there is no magic bullet - no, not even Linux. This formal on this mailing list? No I am not trolling. I am serious, but in a different direction as you think. Linux is not a solution for me, Linux is a problem. My company must go with what I have seen for myself and that is rock solid stability and performance of FreeBSD. FreeBSD is, compared to other operating system stable. But it still has fleas. Those fleas go pretty fast. Compare the time it takes to get problems fixed in other environments with the time it takes to get it fixed by the FreeBSD people. I also have a dog. This dog also has fleas. But they go pretty fast. Just like at FreeBSD. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: I am curious why it's so difficult to get a simple and straight forward list of FreeBSD's features, that normal people can understand? There is no real answer to this question. I am trying to write one of the largest articles ever to be published on www.PCWorld.no -- to only say good things about FreeBSD. But I want it clear what good things to say. This sounds good. How much time is left for you to write it? http://www.freebsd.org/features.html is alright, but not the best. Using super-advanced jargons, it says what they are, but not what they do. At least not in a way normal people can understand. FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. Or, as I describe it for myself, if I would know marketing, I would not write software. http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ aims more towards the general public, and does the job a little better. How ever they don't even mention half of FreeBSD's features. Not all applies to FreeBSD. http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html is very, very good. I get the feeling though, that it ain't like that no more. It is a starting point but a bit outdated. Any idea, people? Not really as I also do not know the current status of your article. I also have no idea what the target audience will be. Let me give you some not to technical points for a start. FreeBSD strongest and also its weakest point is that it is developed by serious people as a serious operating system who took the work of a serious university as their base. This leads easily to misunderstandings when newcommers appearing at the scene. The main advantage of FreeBSD is its stability. It just runs like a work horse. FreeBSD follows very strict principles once set. The number of exceptions to be faced during operating a FreeBSD machine are pretty much limited. All applications come via the ports tree and are delivered as source or as a binary. The user can decide on what level he/she can maintain the machine. The installation from source need compilations but it does not need any knowledge of programming. Following the same steps for all ports, is all the user has to do: cd to the directory in the ports tree make make install make clean I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer. I hope this will start a discussion to give you the strong points of FreeBSD you need for the article. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: This sounds good. How much time is left for you to write it? A couple of weeks :) So I have a lot of time to do research. You could subscribe to more technical lists to see how help is done and what kind of problems people face with a none-technical background. FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. Clearly its weakest point. It is also its strongest point. FreeBSD has a very clear development paradigma. It is far off the chaotic system Linux has. Actually, it's not only for the article. I also want to create an introductory report where FreeBSD meets the real life, and try to present it in the same professional manner that Apple presents their Mac OS X. This would be very helpful for FreeBSD. Maybe some can even be used as wording for FreeBSD's new website, which they desperately need. Here we are again. But do not forget one thing. This technical way of doing things have to stay as it also presents FreeBSD's strongest point. I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer. Yeah I know a lot of people like that :) They would need two things: a very simple discription of doing things, without any ifs. a very clear message that it does not have to be Microsoft software. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Let's say this: Multi-threaded SMP architecture capable of executing the kernel in parallel on multiple processors, and with kernel preemption, allowing high priority kernel tasks to preempt other kernel activity, reducing latency. This includes a multi-threaded network stack and a multi-threaded virtual memory subsystem. With FreeBSD 6.x, support for a fully parallel VFS allows the UFS file system to run on multiple processors simultaneously, permitting load sharing of CPU-intensive I/O optimization. In the real world, that ought to sound more like: FreeBSD includes support for symmetric multiprocessing and multithreading. This makes the kernel lock down levels of interfaces and buffers, minimizing the chance of threads on different processors blocking each other, to give maximum performance on multiprocessor systems. The same old question pops up: what is the target audience. You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer operating system product. It is a very specific product in fact. What is then the difference to Windows in this case? FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: FreeBSD is used by the two groups. But it is not said that it could not be used by the third group. 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long as it works. I do not think that it the design of Windows which makes it target. It is the kind of support people with no knowledge get which makes it. This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works and how computer software that runs on it works in order to get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it works. I do not think so. If people with no knowledge would get proper answers when they run into problems instead of the hint to read the manual would help a lot here. Those people will end in your group 2 which got the system setup by someone else. Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus can get up and running with both of these systems, and that person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is better than nothing. What is the difference to FreeBSD if the system is running once? FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, and over time becomes a tremendous liability. There is no need for an interface like this if the people starting with no computer knowledge would get proper help just to get the machine up and running. With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you really do know everything in intimate detail. Let it tell me this way. I have a neighbour who has a Ph.D. in biology. If she would give me the same answer when it comes to gardening, I would stop gardening as I do not want to know the background. All I want to know is how I can get rid of a special kind of pest. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Vulpes Velox wrote: Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures, not community ones. They will just drag the community down with their weight if they don't help out. This would be the real tough one. There should also be a way to write some kind of descripton for the people between. I found the handbook to be useful in this area. Yes, if you understand it. It is written be serious IT professionals for serious IT professionals. Even a serious none IT professional has problems understanding it. Our problem is that we all do not know the people who would speak the language none IT professionals understand. The original writer sounds like being skilled enough to have serious try on this one if he gets the information he needs for this. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: I do not think that it the design of Windows which makes it target. It is the kind of support people with no knowledge get which makes it. People pay for Windows, not for FreeBSD. The support structures are totally different because of this. If support is what hinges on getting I am not talking of the support people get by paying for it. Just go to any support forum, mailing list or what ever name it has and compare the tone used there. The support is done by volunteers just like here. While people asking 'dumb' questions around FreeBSD just get a RTFM while the same question around Windows might gives them a lot of verbal abuse plus the answer. If a person wastes its time to write 'RTFM', the same person could also write 'RTFM at page xx' and the answer is useful. If people with no knowledge would get proper answers when they run into problems instead of the hint to read the manual would help a lot here. Why should they? If they were paying someone for FreeBSD support that is one thing. Nobody is getting paid to answer questions on the mailing list and on Usenet, if a no-knowledge person asks a question that is answered in the manual, then it is going overboard already, to even tell them to RTFM. They really shouldn't be asking questions if they haven't RTFMed. Why do I hear people crying about the acceptance of FreeBSD in this list? It is the atidute shown above which stops people jumping onto FreeBSD. What is the difference to FreeBSD if the system is running once? Bringing a large number of ignoramuses on board who are dedicated to continuing to be ignoramuses, does not help the FreeBSD project at all. It may help some people making money off servicing those people, but otherwise they are deadweight. Then, never complain that FreeBSD does not reach a higher market share. You know, even raw newbies who have RTFM can help the FreeBSD project by answering posts on the support forums with pointers to the manual!! Yes, just let them do so. But it happens to rearely. Proper help is in the manual, it is in my book, and in Greg Lehey's book, and in several other books written by a number of people. My book is I have to take my neighbour with her Ph.D. in biology again. We can assume she has proven not to be a plain idiot. She got some of the book, looked at them for some days and said 'why should I study IT before I can use FreeBSD'. I am sorry you are going to have to do better than that. The proper help is out there, you just have to spend a little effort looking for it. It is out there but written in a language a none IT person has problems with. The starter of this thread is trying to do something into this direction. I can only ask why do you bother to garden in the first place? Without that background, you don't know why the pesticide that she recommends works. And next season if it doesen't work, you don't know why either. I hope you never fall sick or have to undergo a serious surgery. As long as you do not understand how the whole procedure works, the doctor will not be able to treat you. It's like the saying "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" You just want the fish - I want to feed myself for the rest of my life. No, I want to make him able to catch the fish without knowledge of breeding. Sadly, your attitude is one of the reasons that the United States is being run into the ground by a bunch of religious conservatives these days. Those people are just like you - they don't want to know anything about Stem Cell research, they just want to be told whether it's bad or not. Honestly, before you knock it, you should try to understand how the world works sometime. It's really a better way to live. Do you really want to Let me put it this way. A long time ago, we call it now stone age, the people started to realise that a group of people shows better results if they specialise. The people better in hunting went hunting, the people better in 'farming'. Despite one group did not know how the other group got their kind of food, they shared it. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Andrew L. Gould wrote: On Wednesday 22 June 2005 10:35 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: Hi, /--big snip--/ That was a good idea. That's a great analogy; but I disagree with the way you've applied it. Yes, the hunters and farmers shared the food. That's not to say that the farmers wanted to use the bows and arrows, or that the hunters wanted to use a harvesting tool. If a farmer chose to use a bow and arrow, he/she would be irresponsible not to take a safety lesson (RTFM). Will ever any farmer have taken a bow if there was no other way than RTFM? Just give them the bow, make sure nothing happens to yourself and otehr and let them have a try. That's okay. FreeBSD users are currently "specialized" in their This is one of the reasons of low 'market' share. interest in computer technology when compared to the average Windows user. That's okay too. Specialized tools serve are used by specialized individuals; although all may benefit indirectly. I support better documentation. I don't think there's any argument I would not say there is a need for a better documentation as people who are IT professionals are fine with it. There is the need for a second set of documentation the avarage person on the road will understand. there. The idea that FreeBSD should be usable for all levels of computer users, however, is like putting training wheels on a racing bicycle. Any time you modify a professional tool to make it accessible If Porsche would stop selling cars to people not pushing the cars to the limit, they would sell a few hundreds a year instead of many tenthousands. to all, the tool loses some level of efficiency or power. In the case of FreeBSD, it would also absorb valuable development resources. This is what it should not. I think that there are enough people here who like to help out with their limited knowledge if there would not be this certain tone here if people do not use a very serious tone and lingo in their answers. All of this reminds me of a book I saw at Barnes & Noble last year: "Bioinfomatics for Dummies". Think about it: does anyone on this list want a dummy messing with genetics? We do not want them to run web server, just normal home PCs with FreeBSD instead of Windows or Linux. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Tone is in the eye of the beholder. Sure, posts all contain a tone to them. But very little posted on this mailing list has been anywhere near as harsh as what you see sometimes on Usenet in the FreeBSD groups there. I did not say this at all. This tone is not abusive at all. It is also a very serious tone. The problem is that this is a tone a high number of people has problems with. And I can tell you that absolutely nothing that I have EVER read here or on USENET has EVER held a candle to the power and majesty Nothing ever came even close to the abuse at the national service I did. So, I also know the other extreme. Then, never complain that FreeBSD does not reach a higher market share. _I_ don't. Who does? Some do a logo contest to make FreeBSD more appearing, there is some activity going in. I have to take my neighbour with her Ph.D. in biology again. We can assume she has proven not to be a plain idiot. She got some of the book, looked at them for some days and said 'why should I study IT before I can use FreeBSD'. Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a drivers license? I do not know why people do it. I just learned driving in a deserted place. That is correct. I don't allow someone to cut into my body until they have carefully explained how the whole procedure works and I understand it. I'm surprised you do. There is another difference. I asked 'my' surgeon a simple question: how many died in your hands doing this. The number wasn't zero but within avarage. With other words, I just trust them. And how exactly did they find out from the group of kids growing up each year which ones were better farmers and which ones were better hunters? At one point, the kids knew how to do both. You see, the stone age people understood that just because you had specialization, didn't mean that learning about someone else's specialty was a bad thing. But how deep did they go into the other's field? And, to come back to RTFM, did they first read a handbook or did they just have a try? After all, that other specialist might get et by a tiger, one day, and have to be replaced. This happens now to specialists running Windows catching a virus too. That worked real well until the religious bigots came along and started Yes, but there is a small difference to FreeBSD's use by others: they are not forced to use FreeBSD and they should be used to RTFM. There are so many people out there who do not understand things this way. Just allow them with some help from others who are willing to help. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: _I_ don't. Who does? Some do a logo contest to make FreeBSD more appearing, there is some activity going in. Most of the rank and file argued long against that contest. Not only them. Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a drivers license? I do not know why people do it. I just learned driving in a deserted place. I didn't say "learned driving" I said "get a license" You have to learn what's in the manual to pass the test to get the license. I also never studied that one. With other words: there is more than one way to get the knowledge. It's not a question of trust, it's a question of do I understand what is going to happen. I find post-operative pain a lot easier to bear when I know why it's hurting. I do not bother to understand as long they say it is all right. Ah, but help on who's terms? Telling a newbie to RTFM for an answer that he asks which is in the manual IS help. Yes, it is help. But how dumb does a person have to be if this is of real help? Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: How to improve FreeBSD
Hi, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: On 2005-07-04 11:11, Achilleus Mantzios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: If some of you want to help us improve FreeBSD, then stop arguing about religious and spiritual things and prove you can do something with a "real" impact on the current stateof FreeBSD, such as: - Submit a fix for one of the existing bugs - Improve an existing feature - Add new features - etc. Isn't he talking about the feature 'add new users to the user base of FreeBSD'? Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Infrigement?
Hi, Warren Myers wrote: There was similar case to this recently between Geico and Google, and the courts decided it's fine. There's no law against buying a keyword. it depends on the country. FreeBSD is used in the add not as a keyword. This is illegal in some countries. I do not know the situation in Sweden. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Mail originating from FreeBSD servers spam-blocked by large organization
Hi, Alan Smithee wrote: Naturally, I think this is a rather draconian defense, of limited practical they should block e-mails written by Outlook clients. Does anyone have any advice? In particular, I would be keen to obtain any statistics or references for organizations that use FreeBSD to host their email servers. The problem could be linked to Hotmail and Yahoo. Hotmail was FreeBSD and Yahoo should still be FreeBSD. Both are commonly used for spamming. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: BSDstats Statistics for Aug, 2007 ...
Hi, Marc G. Fournier wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- FreeBSD + 2.7% I hope the numbers are not this bad that my machine alone made your numbers jump his much. My FreeBSD was offline for a year. It was a hard time. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Suggested article to be referenced from FreeBSD Home Page
Hi, On Monday 06 February 2012 17:34:49 Hans Ottevanger wrote: > On 01/30/12 13:35, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > I my opinion it is essential that those few articles about FreeBSD that > still appear are linked to from the Home page of the website. It could > give the impression to a passer-by (i.e. a potential new user!) that > FreeBSD is still alive and kicking. Currently that specific column just > seems out-of-date. > > Another suggestion: on the FreeBSD Foundation site some content is > hidden, e.g. > > http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/testimonials.shtml > > that certainly deserves a more prominent place on the FreeBSD main site. this seems to be misleading: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/testimonials.shtml leads to http://www.kace.com/ which does not show any FreeBSD related things. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors
Hi, On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 12:17:34 +1100 Kubilay Kocak wrote: > On 4/10/2013 1:38 AM, Rodrigo OSORIO wrote: > > Maybe the question is : "have they found what they are looking > > for ?" > > > > Thats a good question Rodrigo and right on point. > > Bounce rates, without also identifying *legitimate* (and/or desirable) > exit points cant alone help us determine if a user has achieved their > objective or not. > I am one of the many 'bounced' users. The front page shows already very often what I want to know. Security notes, the current supported versions and news. Why should I read then things I am not interested in? But there is something missing. There is no 'entry' point for potential new users. > Among other things, marking actions on pages with GA labels will > differentiate many of these cases from the pathological and begins to > place 'our user goals' *first* as the primary definition of success. > > You cant manage or improve what you dont measure. I disagree here. A website is not a piece of engineering. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors
Hi, On Sat, 5 Oct 2013 23:37:52 -0400 Eitan Adler wrote: > On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Erich Dollansky > wrote: > >> Among other things, marking actions on pages with GA labels will > >> differentiate many of these cases from the pathological and begins > >> to place 'our user goals' *first* as the primary definition of > >> success. > >> > >> You cant manage or improve what you dont measure. > > > > I disagree here. A website is not a piece of engineering. > > Yes it is. Of a different type. this type is called 'design'. As an engineer I do the software behind an website but I do not dare to make the design. Ok, I tell the designer, when I think the design could be improved but I do not dare th change it myself. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors
Hi, On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 15:06:55 +1100 Kubilay Kocak wrote: > On 6/10/2013 1:29 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 12:17:34 +1100 > > Kubilay Kocak wrote: > > > >> On 4/10/2013 1:38 AM, Rodrigo OSORIO wrote: > >>> Maybe the question is : "have they found what they are looking > >>> for ?" > >>> > >> > >> Thats a good question Rodrigo and right on point. > >> > >> Bounce rates, without also identifying *legitimate* (and/or > >> desirable) exit points cant alone help us determine if a user has > >> achieved their objective or not. > >> > > I am one of the many 'bounced' users. The front page shows already > > very often what I want to know. Security notes, the current > > supported versions and news. Why should I read then things I am not > > interested in? > > You shouldnt, though im intrigued as to who or what gave you the > impression that you should? :) the content of the first e-mail in this threat. It gives the impression that the site is bad because some 50% 'bounce'. > > > But there is something missing. There is no 'entry' point for > > potential new users. > > +1 on this point. Additionally, new users are but one dimension of one > demographic of a diverse customer base. You want to see understand the > forest *and* the trees. > > >> Among other things, marking actions on pages with GA labels will > >> differentiate many of these cases from the pathological and begins > >> to place 'our user goals' *first* as the primary definition of > >> success. > >> > >> You cant manage or improve what you dont measure. > > > > I disagree here. A website is not a piece of engineering. > > If by engineering you mean not serving a purely technical endeavour, I > can't agree more. I consider the front ends always as design and would never allow an engineer to do one. Let the engineers build the cars but let designers design them. Would you like to drive a car like the Tin Lizzy? > Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors
Hi, On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 07:55:10 +0100 Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 06/10/2013 05:01, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > this type is called 'design'. As an engineer I do the software > > behind an website but I do not dare to make the design. Ok, I tell > > the designer, when I think the design could be improved but I do > > not dare th change it myself. > > The trick is to realise that site design is simply another form of > engineering, albeint with rather different contexts and constraints > than writing software. > > Writing a website so that the users can interact with it readily, find > and understand what they wat, avoid frustration and have a pleasant > overall experience is conceptually much the same sort of thing as > writing a website so it doesn't hog server resources or continually > fail ungracefully or have a badly indexed sub-optimal database schema. > Basically you want it to do it's job efficiently and smoothly, whether > 'it' is the back-end server code, or the on-screen presentation. > > Granted, optimizing sites for human interaction is a whole different > skill set, but it's not some holy task that only some annointed > designer with the mandate of heaven can undertake. yes, it is not rocket science but - as you said - a different skill set. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors
Hi, On Sun, 6 Oct 2013 05:06:02 -0400 Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:45 AM, Erich Dollansky > > wrote: > > > On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 07:55:10 +0100 > > Matthew Seaman wrote: > > > > > On 06/10/2013 05:01, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > this type is called 'design'. As an engineer I do the software > > > > behind an website but I do not dare to make the design. Ok, I > > > > tell the designer, when I think the design could be improved > > > > but I do not dare th change it myself. > > > > > > The trick is to realise that site design is simply another form of > > > engineering, albeint with rather different contexts and > > > constraints than writing software. > > > > > > Writing a website so that the users can interact with it readily, > > > find and understand what they wat, avoid frustration and have a > > > pleasant overall experience is conceptually much the same sort of > > > thing as writing a website so it doesn't hog server resources or > > > continually fail ungracefully or have a badly indexed sub-optimal > > > database schema. Basically you want it to do it's job efficiently > > > and smoothly, whether 'it' is the back-end server code, or the > > > on-screen presentation. > > > > > > Granted, optimizing sites for human interaction is a whole > > > different skill set, but it's not some holy task that only some > > > annointed designer with the mandate of heaven can undertake. > > > > yes, it is not rocket science but - as you said - a different skill > > set. > > > > Erich > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering > > The first sentence : > > *Software engineering* (*SE*) is the application of a systematic, this is the mistake made here. We - at least me - talk about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_design Nobody mentioned the software behind. Only the search function is mentioned very often as being behind current standards. Erich > disciplined, quantifiable approach to the design, development, > operation, and maintenance of software > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software>, and the study of these > approaches; that is, the application of > engineering<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering>to > software.<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering#cite_note-BoDu04-1> > > > Thank you very much . > > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: 80x15 powered by FreeBSD logo?
Hi, On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:17:57 -0800 Xin Li wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > Hi, > > Is there anybody who already created a 80x15 powered by FreeBSD logo > like this Debian one? I think it would be helpful to increase our > exposure on web applications. here is something: http://www.freebsd.org/art.html But updates are very rare. There is nothing I know off I would put onto a FreeBSD powered webserver. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD ZFS advocacy
Hi, another attempt would be to promote ZFS and use FreeBSD as the vehicle to bring ZFS into the game for a low price. The alternative would be Sun/Oracle with a nice price tag. Erich On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:53:05 +0100 k...@3msg.es wrote: > Hi, > > I'm proposing to a medium size enterprise to use a FreeBSD ZFS > installation on commodity hardware for a NAS/SAN storage > implementation. > > The actual implementation is quite small itself, around 8-12TB usable > space presented as iSCSI or cifs, for a TV recording system, with a > second device of similar capacity for a backup. > > However, the organisation is relatively conservative, and little > experience in Free software, with a background of purchasing > proprietary solutions. Part of this particular solution would be to > develop the organisations skills and trust in Free software > solutions, to help them going forward in purchasing decisions. > > I wonder if anyone has any user stories or blog posts etc, that they > could share, that would help provide some corroborating evidence for > the suitability of FreeBSD for this use. > > Thanks in advance, > > Kat ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD ZFS advocacy
Hi, On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 20:37:25 -0400 Allen wrote: > > > You could also try contacting iX directly. If your company likes > > proprietary solutions, then iX can sell you something that looks to > > management like a proprietary system, even if it doesn't to the > > people actually using it... > > Hahaha! I'm sorry to waste peoples tome with basically a giggle, but > when I read that line, I just instantly had a mental image of the > usual pointy haired moron managers all sitting around a boardroom > table saying to one person that FreeBSD being free must have no real > value, and then 5 minutes later someone showing then the same OS but > with a price tag from a company and then them all shaking their heads > yes in agreement because the sticker for the price tag is shiny and > looks good. Lol, sorry about the basically useless reply but it > brightened my day and maybe by pointing it out, it may brighten > someone elses day as well. a long time ago, I did some work for a e-commerce site. Huge machines with the need for a huge firewall. So, the people purchased a huge firewall which was practically a FreeBSD machine based on standard hardware. The client was happy to pay roughly ten times the price of the plain hardware. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Concerning our new Code of Conduct...
Hi, On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 22:37:17 + (UTC) Apostolic Seeker via freebsd-advocacy wrote: > Last year, during my transition away from Windows, having heard > recommendations for both FreeBSD and Linux, I found myselfblocked > from many Twitter accounts. After some research and asking around, it > turned out I was on a blacklist simply for interacting with "wrong > people" on Twitter. This lead back to a representative of FreeBSD, > "FreeBSDGirl", and that she was supported by your developers. She > was rather verbally aggressive when I reached out to her. Because of > this negative experience, I opted not to try FreeBSD and installed > Linux, which I have now been using for almost a year. > > I have long since removed my Twitter account, leaving me able to see > beyond the blacklist again. I see this person, now "Randi Lee > Harper", speaking of a code of conduct on Twitter. I cannot > understand why her behavior is tolerated, and find myself unable to > reconcile this with the high praises I have heard of FreeBSD, and > with a code of conduct. > sounds like the good, old Blockwarts are back in town. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem
Hi, just one word. I am from Kissing. My neighbours are from Fucking. I bet, the 'CoC' people will discriminate me and my neighbours now. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem
Hi, On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 01:08:41 + Kate Dawson wrote: > Actually you sound like you come from under a bridge. You know... > "Trolling" it just shows your low education level. You could have checked maps.google.com. But you did not. Erich > > xxx > > On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 07:21:44AM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > Hi, > > > > just one word. I am from Kissing. My neighbours are from Fucking. I > > bet, the 'CoC' people will discriminate me and my neighbours now. > > > > Erich > > ___ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem
Hi, On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 06:43:47 +0100 "Meixner, Johannes" wrote: > You must have never been to Southern Germany or Austria. and Alaska. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem
Hi, On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 16:12:44 +1100 Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > [trimming -current@, which is really not appropriate] > > On Sunday, 18 March 2018 at 12:40:56 +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 01:08:41 + > > Kate Dawson wrote: > > > >> Actually you sound like you come from under a bridge. You know... > >> "Trolling" > > > > it just shows your low education level. You could have checked > > maps.google.com. > > > > But you did not. > > I don't know if this is covered by the Code of Conduct, but it's > certainly offensive. Please stop. > you want to say, that my place of residence for 30 years is offensive? Are you absolutely sure that you discriminate people depending on their place of residence? In my case, former place of residence. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
CoC does not help in benchmarks
Hi, here are the consequences of putting a CoC up high on the priority list: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=windows-freebsd112-8linux&num=1 Focusing on software would have made FreeBSD do better. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: CoC does not help in benchmarks
Hi, On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 20:21:30 +0200 "Julian H. Stacey" wrote: > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > Hi, > > here are the consequences of putting a CoC up high on the priority > > list: > > https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=windows-freebsd112-8linux&num=1 > > > > FreeBSD performance is really bad on some comparisons there. > > > Focusing on software would have made FreeBSD do better. > > Yes, The new COC imposition distracted from coding: distracted is a nice euphemism for 'good people ran away'. > The COC hi-jack replacement promoted by FreeBSD Foundation, was > contentious, incompetently phrased in places, imposed without Here I disagree. It was competently phrased when targeting a functioning community with the aim to damage it. > prior debate, enforced by a few commiters, wasted peoples time & > caused annoyance. Aside from the content, the process also > deserves reprimand. There were complaints to core@. Core secretary > wrote me that review was in progress. Nothing long since. > > The hijacked COC needs at least core@ review. > Discussion before would have been better. > > I'd at least suggest append: > "No one may edit this COC, without prior consent of core@" > > As the promoting commiters abused due process, stifled debate, & > their hijacked COC foists their own "Code of Conduct Committee" & > taht will deny most appeals, a sceptical eye seems appropriate ;-) > > Refs: > https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html > "This Code of Conduct is based on the example policy from the Geek > Feminism wiki." > > https://web.archive.org/web/2017070100*/www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html > https://web.archive.org/web/20170824113511/www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html > Does anybody need more: Keep it civil. Be tolerant. Remember that you are in public and that your actions determine the public perception of the project. Do not make it personal. Do not take it personally. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: CoC does not help in benchmarks
Hi, do you think that this will bring back programmers? Erich On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 12:43:10 -0600 Warner Losh wrote: > The plan is to do another revision, this time in public. We've > already done the first round of data collection and have data to > inform the revisions. Now that core election is done, progress can be > made. > > Replying point by point to this misleading and slanted assessment is > not wothwhile. > > Warner > > > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 12:22 PM Julian H. Stacey > wrote: > > > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > Hi, > > > here are the consequences of putting a CoC up high on the > > > priority list: > > https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=windows-freebsd112-8linux&num=1 > > > > FreeBSD performance is really bad on some comparisons there. > > > > > Focusing on software would have made FreeBSD do better. > > > > Yes, The new COC imposition distracted from coding: > > The COC hi-jack replacement promoted by FreeBSD Foundation, was > > contentious, incompetently phrased in places, imposed without > > prior debate, enforced by a few commiters, wasted peoples time & > > caused annoyance. Aside from the content, the process also > > deserves reprimand. There were complaints to core@. Core > > secretary wrote me that review was in progress. Nothing long since. > > > > The hijacked COC needs at least core@ review. > > Discussion before would have been better. > > > > I'd at least suggest append: > > "No one may edit this COC, without prior consent of core@" > > > > As the promoting commiters abused due process, stifled debate, & > > their hijacked COC foists their own "Code of Conduct Committee" & > > taht will deny most appeals, a sceptical eye seems appropriate ;-) > > > > Refs: > > https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html > > "This Code of Conduct is based on the example policy from the Geek > > Feminism wiki." > > > > > > https://web.archive.org/web/2017070100*/www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html > > > > https://web.archive.org/web/20170824113511/www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html > > > > Cheers, > > Julian > > -- > > Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux > > Unix, Munich > > Brexit Referendum stole 3.7 million votes inc. 700,000 from > > British in EU. UK Goverment lies it's democratic in Article 50 > > paragraph 3 of letter to EU. > > http://exitbrexit.uk > > > > ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: CoC does not help in benchmarks
Hi, On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 17:31:04 -0600 Warner Losh wrote: > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 5:26 PM, Erich Dollansky < > freebsd.ed.li...@sumeritec.com> wrote: > > > > Does anybody need more: > > > > Keep it civil. > > Be tolerant. > > Remember that you are in public and that your actions determine > > the public perception of the project. Do not make it personal. Do > > not take it personally. > > > > Such overly-simply CoCs have proven unworkable in the past. They were > OK in the 90's, but we live in a different internet world today. > These are good guidelines and great advice, but make it hard to take > action when necessary. I wish it were not so. > > Warner what kind of action can be done with the new CoC that could not have been done with the old CoC? Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: CoC does not help in benchmarks
Hi, On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 00:28:38 + Adam wrote: > On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 12:24 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018, 6:20 PM Andras Farkas > > wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 7:31 PM Warner Losh > > > wrote: > > > > Such overly-simply CoCs have proven unworkable in the past. > > > > They were > > OK > > > in > > > > the 90's, but we live in a different internet world today. > > > > These are > > good > > > > guidelines and great advice, but make it hard to take action > > > > when necessary. I wish it were not so. > > > > we live in a different internet world today > > > > > [Citation needed] > > > > > > > Direct personal experience on a conduct board, 10 years over the > > last 20 serving on FreeBSD core team. Most of that time as core's > > specialist in interpersonal disputes. That qualifies me to have an > > informed, expert opinion. > > > > So what are your credentials? > > > > > I'm an expert because I say I am. What kind of conduct is that? > yeah, just like the exports who copied the CoC. Don't worry, I understand your point. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: CoC does not help in benchmarks
Hi, On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 12:10:47 -0400 Stephen Cook wrote: > Was the project going to lose any significant contributors if we > didn't protect them from *hugs*? I would not have expected. > > against spurious accusations. It would also be a violation to "dox" > someone, which the FreeBSD CoC does not protect against and in a way > encourages: "Deliberate "outing" of any private aspect of a person's > identity without their consent *except as necessary to protect > vulnerable people from intentional abuse*" (emphasis mine). I think that nobody thought of this at all. > > The FreeBSD CoC in its current form (or anything close to it) is > pushing a political agenda in itself, has little to do with its This is the point. > alleged goals, and does not help the community. It is possible to > protect people from harassment, or at least remove the offenders, > without defining some sets of people as Vulnerable and another as The > Oppressors. As if this would not have happened before. As result people who have nothing to do with this project could suddenly play an essential role here without contributing at all, at least not to the code. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: CoC does not help in benchmarks
Hi, On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 19:44:55 -0400 Chad Jacob Milios wrote: > > On Jul 13, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Erich Dollansky > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > here are the consequences of putting a CoC up high on the priority > > list: > > > > https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=windows-freebsd112-8linux&num=1 > > <https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=windows-freebsd112-8linux&num=1> > > > > There is NO indication of causality here. Your logic is missing or > flawed. > you mean, the money spent on the CoC would not helped to develop better code by getting people willing to code for the same amount of money. > > Focusing on software would have made FreeBSD do better. > > Fair ‘nuff, let’s do that. What is it that you’re focusing on with > this message or [ongoing] thread, though? > Just documenting some short comings of the project in its current state. > Insightful and informative. Thank you, Jeff. I think any of us who’ve > had any real participation in the various forums of communication > used by The Project for any significant length of time are familiar > with the often passionate and sometimes contentious nature of many > talented and creative people. When a necessary response, which may > come as drastic, is sometimes taken it’s only made worse if it’s met > with shock and surprise by the may-be brat throwing the would-be > tantrum. > > You know, Erich, this is a perfectly valid question. I had the same > very same question myself, and I must say, it’s a mighty fine CoC you > got here. I see nothing at all wrong with yer short CoC, but see, > we’re white, we’re men. A small CoC’s always seemed to work well > enough for us. Ask the women though. See what they think. Ask a > darker fellow how he appreciates the utility of having the longer, > broader CoC. > I showed this to my wife. She is not white, and - what a surprise - she is not make. All she could do is laugh. There was a time, when she asked if white people are really that bad. The CoC gave a clear answer. > Core and the CoC committee did _not_ have an easy job to do! No, they > didn’t do it flawlessly but it seems like it’s so Gawt dayum easy for > some of y’all to sit back and complain from your easy chair. If you > actually know how to behave and conduct yourself as a decent human > being then why t.f. should the prior or current CoC have any real > bearing on your life _whatsoever_? This is not rhetorical. I am > seriously asking, please, can someone explain all this butthurt to me? > I come from a background where we say, stop it before it takes over. What ever bad thing appeared in the past, appeared very smooth, very gentle, just like this CoC. > I can admit, i do understand the appeal of the good ol’ days of the > boyz club. Colorful and loud, outright raucous discourse, i tend to > enjoy. But we are a bigger project now. Like Warner said, the 90’s > are over. With all the good we’ve achieved comes some compromises. > I’d rather support and protect diversity. The Nineties are over, yes, but is civilisation also over? > > Can anyone actually tell me why they find the long CoC so > intimidating? Honestly, who really left the project _over_the_CoC_? > Pointing at our CoC to cast blame is just simple minded and lazy. > There are PLENTY of problems and issues with the project and the > software while there are also many very good very hard working people > doing all that they can to make FreeBSD GREAT, and I think it still > is. I find discussions about those issues to be infinitely more > interesting than bickering about our CoC. Of course, people can work on FreeBSD with the new CoC. But do they have to work? The future will tell. > > Much LOVE to all of you. Oh shoot, now did I just trip over FreeBSD’s > massive CoC? How come? You are a bad boy. And have a person who makes a fuss out of it. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: CoC does not help in benchmarks
Hi, On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:53:19 -0500 CL Moonriver wrote: > > Was the project going to lose any significant contributors if we > > didn't protect them from *hugs*? > The point is, I think it is important that the CoC make new > contributors feel welcome and that if they want to contribute, they doesn't the new CoC look like a legal letter only lawyers understand full with terms many people have never heard in their lives? > probably can, no matter what their background or skill level. And > they don't have to worry they are going to harassed or insulted for > "not being good enough". Again, that's one of the things that > attracted me to FreeBSD to begin with. The old one just said in this context 'be civil'. I think that nobody will need a lawyer to understand this. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: CoC does not help in benchmarks
Hi, On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:38:21 -0400 Chad Jacob Milios wrote: > > On Jul 17, 2018, at 5:23 AM, Erich Dollansky > > wrote: > > > > you mean, the money spent on the CoC would not helped to develop > > better code by getting people willing to code for the same amount > > of money. > > Now I see your point. Do we know how much was spent on CoC? I get > zero hits for /(coc|conduct)/i on all pdfs linked from the body of > https://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about/financials/ > <https://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about/financials/> only that this number is not published is fishy. > > I thought i recall Deb Goodkin said that means its expenditure was > “insignificant”. I dont have a citation unfortunately but at some > point in the last couple years i wanna say i heard numbers around > $1000 being tossed around but it sounded like conjecture to me at the > time. Am I anywhere near the mark? Did i miss something more concrete > coming out? Some smaller contributors told me to leave and two donors told me that they will stop donating. > > I still don’t see what’s to get so bent out of shape about. Is it > that y’all want more transparency, finer granularity, etc? Are coders > really leaving or effectively going “on strike” over this? > Isn't this the perfect example of how transparency is avoided? > > > I come from a background where we say, stop it before it takes over. > > What ever bad thing appeared in the past, appeared very smooth, very > > gentle, just like this CoC. > > Ok, i can hear you now. I think you’re saying that just about EVERY > horrific attrocity of human rights in the history of humankind had at > one time began with seemingly good intensions and was touted as > innocent and reasonable. You’re worried our CoC is pointing in the > direction of hindering innovation by stifling free speech and the > exchange of ideas. You wonder if a silent majority is simply leaving > because they recognize this with their gut intuition but are not as > vocal, opinionated or invested as those spearheading the controversy. > (?) > The future will tell. > Am i close? I have hardly taken in very much of this saga. I’ve > mostly tried to ignore it and not let it distract me from my work or > my participation in The Project. > > May I politely ask your background, out of curiosity? Is it that > you’re German or Jewish? Would that be a fair question or an > inappropriate presumption? I think i can also feel a bit of what > you’re saying now, that i’m not quite sure if i’m running afoul of > the CoC in asking that question and now my anxiety says i should just > shut up and leave. > You are right. I have a German passport. > > > The Nineties are over, yes, but is civilisation also over? > > I don’t think civilization was ever at risk of ending. Lawd, i hope > this isn’t the end of civility in the FreeBSD project. This is why I think that the old CoC was perfect for this cind of project. > > Maybe I’m being melodramatic but this brings to mind something i read > once along the lines of: A peace maintained by force or restriction > cannot be sustained and will eventually explode violently or crumble > chaotically. Or: Without freedom there can be no liberty. Without > liberty there can be no justice. Without justice there can be no > lasting peace. > Yes! > > > Of course, people can work on FreeBSD with the new CoC. But do they > > have to work? > > I’m sorry, i don’t think i caught your meaning here. It is just as written. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Interesting Benchmarks
Hi, https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=bsd-threadripper-2990wx&num=1 it was me some time ago criticising Micheal for his benchmarks using CURRENT out of the box with the out-of-the-box compiler. Micheal reacted also on this list those days and set this test up. It shows how far CLang can be behind GCC. The benchmarks also show that FreeBSD is very competitive when GCC is used. People without a GPL allergy can build a real fast system. Lazy people just keep CLang and get still a fast system. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
