Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Fwd: You just went to the Google homepage. What actually happened?

2013-03-21 Thread Parks, Raymond 
Steam engines work fine on wood - not as efficient but they worked with wood 
for years.  Hydro-power has worked even better since ancient times.

Charcoal comes from wood and can be made into coke.

All that aside, I don't understand the comment "we already have mined and spent 
all of easily available fossil fuels".  That's stupid on several levels.

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager
V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)



On Mar 21, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:

> At the risk of hijacking the thread... I liked the comment on the ycombinator:
> PeterisP
> 
> There exists a viewpoint that in case of a cataclysm (which would involve 
> man-made objects disappearing*) we would never, ever progress past 18th 
> century tech again.
> The argument is that getting from animal-powered devices to 
> solar/nuclear/whatever powered devices while at the same time switching from 
> 90%-agricultural workforce to anything more progressive can happen only if 
> there is a cheap source of energy available - and we already have mined and 
> spent all of easily available fossil fuels.
> Even if all kinds of fancy devices are available and constructed by rich 
> enthusiasts, the lack of cheap steam power ensures lack of cheap steel/etc, 
> and all the technologies don't get the mass adoption required for their 
> improvements, there are almost no advantages for industrialization, so the 
> world gets stuck in feudal-agriculture systems as the local optimum.
> 
> which suggests the Knowledge Ark would be largely a waste of time.
> 
> * refers to a preceding comment.
> 
> Robert C
> 
> 
> On 3/21/13 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>> From HN, a pointer to a delightfully clever essay that would be loved by 
>> Nick and others who are often bewildered by the hacker alphabet soup of 
>> acronyms and buzz words.
>> 
>> Well, what _does_ happen when you got to a web page?
>> https://plus.google.com/112218872649456413744/posts/dfydM2Cnepe
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5408597
>> 
>> This has the possibility of a new book that somehow makes it all reasonably 
>> clear. Maybe.
>> 
>>-- Owen
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Fwd: You just went to the Google homepage. What actually happened?

2013-03-21 Thread Robert J. Cordingley 

It would be nice to know the origin of 'the viewpoint'.
Robert C

On 3/21/13 5:48 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote:
Steam engines work fine on wood - not as efficient but they worked 
with wood for years.  Hydro-power has worked even better since ancient 
times.


Charcoal comes from wood and can be made into coke.

All that aside, I don't understand the comment "we already have mined 
and spent all of easily available fossil fuels".  That's stupid on 
several levels.


Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager
V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov 
SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov 
 (send NIPR reminder)

JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov  (send NIPR reminder)



On Mar 21, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:

At the risk of hijacking the thread... I liked the comment on the 
ycombinator:


PeterisP

There exists a viewpoint that in case of a cataclysm (which would
involve man-made objects disappearing*) we would never, ever
progress past 18th century tech again.
The argument is that getting from animal-powered devices to
solar/nuclear/whatever powered devices while at the same time
switching from 90%-agricultural workforce to anything more
progressive can happen only if there is a cheap source of energy
available - and we already have mined and spent all of easily
available fossil fuels.
Even if all kinds of fancy devices are available and constructed
by rich enthusiasts, the lack of cheap steam power ensures lack
of cheap steel/etc, and all the technologies don't get the mass
adoption required for their improvements, there are almost no
advantages for industrialization, so the world gets stuck in
feudal-agriculture systems as the local optimum.

which suggests the Knowledge Ark 
 would be largely a waste 
of time.


* refers to a preceding comment.

Robert C


On 3/21/13 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
From HN, a pointer to a delightfully clever essay that would be 
loved by Nick and others who are often bewildered by the hacker 
alphabet soup of acronyms and buzz words.


Well, what _does_ happen when you got to a web page?

https://plus.google.com/112218872649456413744/posts/dfydM2Cnepe
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5408597


This has the possibility of a new book that somehow makes it all 
reasonably clear. Maybe.


   -- Owen



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com





FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Fwd: You just went to the Google homepage. What actually happened?

2013-03-21 Thread Roger Critchlow 
Yeah, wood is great, except almost everywhere that depended on it ended up
with none within wood gathering radius.  The story is if you look at early
photos of Santa Fe, the hills seem strangely denuded compared to the
present.

-- rec --


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:

> Steam engines work fine on wood - not as efficient but they worked with
> wood for years.  Hydro-power has worked even better since ancient times.
>
> Charcoal comes from wood and can be made into coke.
>
> All that aside, I don't understand the comment "we already have mined and
> spent all of easily available fossil fuels".  That's stupid on several
> levels.
>
> Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
>
>
>
> On Mar 21, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:
>
>  At the risk of hijacking the thread... I liked the comment on the
> ycombinator:
>
> PeterisP
>
> There exists a viewpoint that in case of a cataclysm (which would involve
> man-made objects disappearing*) we would never, ever progress past 18th
> century tech again.
> The argument is that getting from animal-powered devices to
> solar/nuclear/whatever powered devices while at the same time switching
> from 90%-agricultural workforce to anything more progressive can happen
> only if there is a cheap source of energy available - and we already have
> mined and spent all of easily available fossil fuels.
> Even if all kinds of fancy devices are available and constructed by rich
> enthusiasts, the lack of cheap steam power ensures lack of cheap steel/etc,
> and all the technologies don't get the mass adoption required for their
> improvements, there are almost no advantages for industrialization, so the
> world gets stuck in feudal-agriculture systems as the local optimum.
>
>  which suggests the Knowledge 
> Arkwould be largely a waste of 
> time.
>
> * refers to a preceding comment.
>
> Robert C
>
>
> On 3/21/13 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>
> From HN, a pointer to a delightfully clever essay that would be loved by
> Nick and others who are often bewildered by the hacker alphabet soup
> of acronyms and buzz words.
>
>  Well, what _does_ happen when you got to a web page?
>
> https://plus.google.com/112218872649456413744/posts/dfydM2Cnepe
>  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5408597
>
>
>  This has the possibility of a new book that somehow makes it all
> reasonably clear. Maybe.
>
> -- Owen
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>  
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Fwd: You just went to the Google homepage. What actually happened?

2013-03-25 Thread Parks, Raymond 
  Yes, most currently wooded population areas in the West were pretty much 
lumbered out for railroad ties, mine frames, and buildings during the 19th 
Century.  Pictures of the Durango and Silverton area show the extent of that 
lumbering.

  A while back, the Corps of Engineers wanted to to do some work on the levee 
and bypass ditch that protects Corrales from Rio Grande flooding.  They 
intended to use bull-dozers and other equipment, which caused a great outcry 
from the environmentally-inclined about how the work would destroy old-growth 
trees in the Corrales bosque.   They were somewhat embarrassed when old-timers 
pointed out that those old-growth trees had replaced the trees wiped out by the 
big flood in 1941 - not old-growth at all.  Of course, much of the concern came 
from folks who don't realize that cottonwoods rarely live beyond 50 years, 
anyway.  Some forests never grow old.

  I wonder if one of the reasons that the juniper and piñon around Santa Fe 
have succumbed to bark beetle is because they are invasive species - certainly 
there was something else growing in the area worth lumbering that has been 
replaced by the trees which are not.

  It's a fascinating aspect of human nature that we assume that nature as we 
see it has been that way for eons.

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager
V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)



On Mar 21, 2013, at 6:55 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:

> Yeah, wood is great, except almost everywhere that depended on it ended up 
> with none within wood gathering radius.  The story is if you look at early 
> photos of Santa Fe, the hills seem strangely denuded compared to the present.
> 
> -- rec --
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:
> Steam engines work fine on wood - not as efficient but they worked with wood 
> for years.  Hydro-power has worked even better since ancient times.
> 
> Charcoal comes from wood and can be made into coke.
> 
> All that aside, I don't understand the comment "we already have mined and 
> spent all of easily available fossil fuels".  That's stupid on several levels.
> 
> Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 21, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:
> 
>> At the risk of hijacking the thread... I liked the comment on the 
>> ycombinator:
>> PeterisP
>> 
>> There exists a viewpoint that in case of a cataclysm (which would involve 
>> man-made objects disappearing*) we would never, ever progress past 18th 
>> century tech again.
>> The argument is that getting from animal-powered devices to 
>> solar/nuclear/whatever powered devices while at the same time switching from 
>> 90%-agricultural workforce to anything more progressive can happen only if 
>> there is a cheap source of energy available - and we already have mined and 
>> spent all of easily available fossil fuels.
>> Even if all kinds of fancy devices are available and constructed by rich 
>> enthusiasts, the lack of cheap steam power ensures lack of cheap steel/etc, 
>> and all the technologies don't get the mass adoption required for their 
>> improvements, there are almost no advantages for industrialization, so the 
>> world gets stuck in feudal-agriculture systems as the local optimum.
>> 
>> which suggests the Knowledge Ark would be largely a waste of time.
>> 
>> * refers to a preceding comment.
>> 
>> Robert C
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/21/13 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>>> From HN, a pointer to a delightfully clever essay that would be loved by 
>>> Nick and others who are often bewildered by the hacker alphabet soup of 
>>> acronyms and buzz words.
>>> 
>>> Well, what _does_ happen when you got to a web page?
>>> https://plus.google.com/112218872649456413744/posts/dfydM2Cnepe
>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5408597
>>> 
>>> This has the possibility of a new book that somehow makes it all reasonably 
>>> clear. Maybe.
>>> 
>>>-- Owen
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> 
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> 
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> 
>