Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote: is not ASF License compliant? If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7 This would compromise all Maven releases that include the maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org sites... Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the user chooses to use the hibernate plugin). So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver (can I use Hibernate in an ASF project) now be? If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build process (maven or ant)). I agree, that we need a clarification (best would be a legal council backed clarification). Having to move every bit of maven code that references LGPL off-ASF would hit quite a few plugins. :-( Regards Henning -- Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]+49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/ RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development Fighting for one's political stand is an honorable action, but re- fusing to acknowledge that there might be weaknesses in one's position - in order to identify them so that they can be remedied - is a large enough problem with the Open Source movement that it deserves to be on this list of the top five problems. --Michelle Levesque, Fundamental Issues with Open Source Software Development - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote: is not ASF License compliant? If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7 This would compromise all Maven releases that include the maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org sites... Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the user chooses to use the hibernate plugin). So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver (can I use Hibernate in an ASF project) now be? If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build process (maven or ant)). The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to introduce to Slide. I agree, that we need a clarification (best would be a legal council backed clarification). Having to move every bit of maven code that references LGPL off-ASF would hit quite a few plugins. :-( Somebody could setup mavendev.org (see cocoondev.org) to host (L)GPL pieces. PS Copying PMC because action is required Vadim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Wed, 2004-09-29 at 13:56, Vadim Gritsenko wrote: Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote: is not ASF License compliant? If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7 This would compromise all Maven releases that include the maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org sites... Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the user chooses to use the hibernate plugin). So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver (can I use Hibernate in an ASF project) now be? If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build process (maven or ant)). The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to introduce to Slide. Incorrect. Unless maven core depends on LPGL, which afaik doesn't. Just the plugins that depend on LGPL code need to become LPGL and probably need to move. The plugin architecture prevents the core from becoming infected. Somebody could setup mavendev.org (see cocoondev.org) to host (L)GPL pieces. PS Copying PMC because action is required Ehh Maven has it's own PMC... Mvgr, Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
Martin van den Bemt wrote: On Wed, 2004-09-29 at 13:56, Vadim Gritsenko wrote: Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote: is not ASF License compliant? If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7 This would compromise all Maven releases that include the maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org sites... Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the user chooses to use the hibernate plugin). So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver (can I use Hibernate in an ASF project) now be? If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build process (maven or ant)). The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to introduce to Slide. Incorrect. Unless maven core depends on LPGL, which afaik doesn't. Just the plugins that depend on LGPL code need to become LPGL and probably need to move. The plugin architecture prevents the core from becoming infected. That's exactly what I'm talking about, plugin code, not whole Maven. Sorry for not being presice enough :-) Somebody could setup mavendev.org (see cocoondev.org) to host (L)GPL pieces. PS Copying PMC because action is required Ehh Maven has it's own PMC... Oops :-) I'll go with assumptions that you guys (Maven PMC) will take care of this. Vadim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
| The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed | itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain | LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to | introduce to Slide. | | Incorrect. Unless maven core depends on LPGL, which afaik doesn't. | Just the plugins that depend on LGPL code need to become LPGL and | probably need to move. | The plugin architecture prevents the core from becoming infected. I believe this is untrue. LGPL doesn't infect, as such. It just places restrictions on how much you can restrict your users/customers of your code with your own license. I think that the problem is that -if- you have LGPL code in your system, then you must accept that the code using the LGPL code can be traced, disassembled and analyzed (and possibly packaged in such a way that the borders between your code and the library are clearly defined). The reason for this, is that a user shall have the option to -replace- the library with another version, or another implementation, and shall thus not be restricted from analyzing exactly how your code is using it. I might be dead wrong. Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, [iso-8859-1] Endre Stølsvik wrote: | The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed | itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain | LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to | introduce to Slide. | | Incorrect. Unless maven core depends on LPGL, which afaik doesn't. | Just the plugins that depend on LGPL code need to become LPGL and | probably need to move. | The plugin architecture prevents the core from becoming infected. I believe this is untrue. LGPL doesn't infect, as such. It just places restrictions on how much you can restrict your users/customers of your code with your own license. I think that the problem is that -if- you have LGPL code in your system, then you must accept that the code using the LGPL code can be traced, disassembled and analyzed (and possibly packaged in such a way that the borders between your code and the library are clearly defined). The reason for this, is that a user shall have the option to -replace- the library with another version, or another implementation, and shall thus not be restricted from analyzing exactly how your code is using it. I might be dead wrong. You'd have to talk to a lawyer to get a vaguely accurate answer Endre, and even then it would be untested in court so only an educated guess. The chief contention is that the LGPL licence is written for the C language and so the interpretations of the C-specific parts of the LGPL are very open to question in other languages. Lawrence Rosen's book on Open Source Licensing looked pretty interesting. http://www.bookpool.com/.x/p5ym5sort6/sm/0131487876 When I browsed it at the shop, he seemed to come down on this line. Although the intention might be for LGPL to behave as people think it should, the legalese in the licence does not back this up. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote: is not ASF License compliant? If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7 This would compromise all Maven releases that include the maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org sites... Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the user chooses to use the hibernate plugin). So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver (can I use Hibernate in an ASF project) now be? The same as it was before pretty much. LGPL code may not be depended on by code that is in the ASF CVS/SVN repositories, or released on the ASF site. Slide could have a pluggable backend, as long as no code in the ASF repository imported packages from Hibernate (or any LGPL dependencies of Hibernate). If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build process (maven or ant)). I agree, that we need a clarification (best would be a legal council backed clarification). I'll talk with the Maven PMC/Jason to find out what the deal is. Last I knew, the maven-plugins were hosted at http://maven-plugins.sourceforge.net/ and not at the ASF, but maybe there's a difference between these two plugin CVS repositories. The front page for that states: Maven Plugins is a collection of plugins for Apache Jakarta Maven. These plugins are currently not part of Maven since they use an incompatible licence agreement or the JARs upon which they depend use an incompatible license agreement. So I would have expected the hibernate plugin to be there. Source in CVS counted as distributing last I heard, but I'll find out more. -- Until we hear differently though: no LGPL jars or imports on *.apache.org. -- Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Sep 29, 2004, at 3:50 AM, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote: is not ASF License compliant? If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/ org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7 This would compromise all Maven releases that include the maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org sites... Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the user chooses to use the hibernate plugin). So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver (can I use Hibernate in an ASF project) now be? still no If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build process (maven or ant)). I agree, that we need a clarification (best would be a legal council backed clarification). This isn't a clear-cut legal issue, like speeding or stealing. The problem is that the ASF position is that the LGPL is unclear, and the FSF won't clarify in an official way. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Sep 29, 2004, at 4:56 AM, Vadim Gritsenko wrote: Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote: is not ASF License compliant? If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/ org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7 This would compromise all Maven releases that include the maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org sites... Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the user chooses to use the hibernate plugin). So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver (can I use Hibernate in an ASF project) now be? If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build process (maven or ant)). The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to introduce to Slide. No - LGPL isn't viral unless you make derivative works of the LGPL-ed code itself. Just using an LGPL-ed codebase as a library does not trigger the virality. The problem is that for java, there are questions about the clarity of the provisions in the license that prevent the virality from taking effect, which is why the ASF doesn't allow LGPLed java usage. This is a position that I'm trying to find a compromise for. geir I agree, that we need a clarification (best would be a legal council backed clarification). Having to move every bit of maven code that references LGPL off-ASF would hit quite a few plugins. :-( Somebody could setup mavendev.org (see cocoondev.org) to host (L)GPL pieces. PS Copying PMC because action is required Vadim -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
No - LGPL isn't viral unless you make derivative works of the LGPL-ed code itself. Just using an LGPL-ed codebase as a library does not trigger the virality. The problem is that for java, there are questions about the clarity of the provisions in the license that prevent the virality from taking effect, which is why the ASF doesn't allow LGPLed java usage. This is a position that I'm trying to find a compromise for. Thanx for clearing that one up.. Mvgr, Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
The problem is that for java, there are questions about the clarity of the provisions in the license that prevent the virality from taking effect, which is why the ASF doesn't allow LGPLed java usage. I believe that a specific example is implementing an interface where the interface is LGPL, the question of whether or not your work is a derivative work is one for the lawyers. d *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Sep 29, 2004, at 4:56 AM, Vadim Gritsenko wrote: The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to introduce to Slide. No - LGPL isn't viral unless you make derivative works of the LGPL-ed code itself. Just using an LGPL-ed codebase as a library does not trigger the virality. According to some opinions, IIRC, import some.lgpl.stuff; triggers LGPL virality, I based my comment on this opinion. The problem is that for java, there are questions about the clarity of the provisions in the license that prevent the virality from taking effect, which is why the ASF doesn't allow LGPLed java usage. Exactly, the clarity is missing. Any progress on this front will be an improvement. Vadim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 00:15, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Sep 27, 2004, at 11:37 AM, Tim O'Brien wrote:
For Oliver's sake, could we submit the question to ASF counsel and see
if there is any way to allow us to use Hibernate in even the most round
about way.
Our counsel would have no opinion different than what you've heard. We
(the ASF) have tried to get a clear statement from the FSF, and so far,
none have been forthcoming.
Even though I'm fairly certain of the answer (no). It would be nice to
get a firm answer - yes or no - from an officer or the board. What is
the best way to bring this to the boards' attention. Email to Greg,
copying Robyn Wagner?
board_hat
no
/board_hat
This is an issue important to me as well - I'd like to see this go
away, so we can use software w/ the LGPL. But until the problem is
resolved, right now the only way is to use via a dynamic dispatch
mechanism.
Hm. So writing a file
cut
package org.apache.foo;
import net.sf.hibernate.Session;
public class Foo
{
Session session = null;
}
cut
is not ASF License compliant?
If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7
This would compromise all Maven releases that include the
maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org
sites...
To make it worse: Maven and the seed repository available at
http://www.apache.org/dist/maven/binaries/seed-repo-maven-1.0.tar.gz
contain the a checkstyle.jar which, according to
http://checkstyle.sourceforge.net/java.header
is LGPL. This once more pointed out explicitly by
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/checkstyle/checkstyle/README?annotate=1.3
--- cut ---
This software is licensed under the terms in the file named LICENSE in
this directory.
--- cut ---
There _is_ also a file called LICENSE.apache in the CVS but it was not
clear to me if it is just there for documentation purposes (checkstyle
uses e.g. jakarta-regexp) or if checkstyle is dual-licensed.
I really understand the move to ibiblio.org now...
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
[EMAIL PROTECTED]+49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development
Fighting for one's political stand is an honorable action, but re-
fusing to acknowledge that there might be weaknesses in one's
position - in order to identify them so that they can be remedied -
is a large enough problem with the Open Source movement that it
deserves to be on this list of the top five problems.
--Michelle Levesque, Fundamental Issues with
Open Source Software Development
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
is not ASF License compliant? If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7 This would compromise all Maven releases that include the maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org sites... Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the user chooses to use the hibernate plugin). This could certainly do with some clarifying. To make it worse: Maven and the seed repository available at http://www.apache.org/dist/maven/binaries/seed-repo-maven-1.0.tar.gz contain the a checkstyle.jar which, according to ... There _is_ also a file called LICENSE.apache in the CVS but it was not clear to me if it is just there for documentation purposes (checkstyle uses e.g. jakarta-regexp) or if checkstyle is dual-licensed. This is definitely a potential problem. I've moved the seed repository out of the official dist directory until it can be further investigated. Thanks again. Cheers, Brett - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
Hi Oliver, I was considering OJB as well and it is my fall back solution. I am a little bit familiar with Hibernate so it was my natural choice. Anyway, could you give me a link to the and more or tell me a little bit about it? Generally speaking OJB and hibernate have comparable mapping capabilities. There is a feature comparison at the portland pattern repository: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ObjectRelationalToolComparison You'll notice that both products have evolved to quite a similar set of features over time. I think the big plus over hibernate is that we support standard persistence APIs like ODMG and JDO. (at some point hibernate also hat a ODMG demo implementation but it was never completed) OJB also provides better flexibility, you can replace almost any part of the framework by user-defined plugins. I've also heard about scalability issues from ex-hibernate users. They solved their issues by migrating to OJB. OJB documentation is more complete and contains all kind of tutorials, cookbooks, etc. this one will get you started: http://db.apache.org/ojb/docu/getting-started.html Our junit regression testbed is also outstanding. Thomas Thanks, Oliver Mahler Thomas wrote: You might consider Using Apache OJB (http://db.apache.org/ojb). It can do everything that hibernate can do - and more. And it's an Apache project... cheers, Thomas -Original Message- From: Oliver Zeigermann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:38 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License? Folks, I was considering to use Hibernate for persistence in the Slide project. Now, Hibernate is LGPL, but in http://www.hibernate.org/196.html the authors explain their idea of dynamic linking as mentioned in the LGPL text. This looks just fine to me. Additionally, I understand I can even put the jars into the Slide CVS if I include a reference to the license, right? Thanks for any comments in advance, Oliver - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
Hi Noel, Mahler Thomas wrote: You might consider Using Apache OJB (http://db.apache.org/ojb). It can do everything that hibernate can do - and more. We don't hear much (enough?) about OJB. Has anyone written up an OJB for Hibernate Users type document? I think that's a valid point. We did not focus on marketing a lot. Even though insiders agree that OJB is better suited for heavy duty applications than hibernate, there is still quite a hype around hibernate. I don't know of any OJB for Hibernate Users document. I don't think that there is a steep learning curve to OJB if you have worked with another O/R tool before. The concepts of Hibernate, TopLink, OJB, etc. are quite similar. But I agree that there is a tough learning curve for users that are new to O/R concepts. We have tried to help them by putting lots of effort into documentation. We have an extensive and well written documentation and have also provided several getting started tutorials. http://db.apache.org/ojb/docu/index.html http://db.apache.org/ojb/docu/getting-started.html http://db.apache.org/ojb/docu/tutorials/summary.html The faq will also be helpful: http://db.apache.org/ojb/docu/faq.html Thomas --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
Thanks Tim! I really appreciate your help! Such an answer would be great. If it is definitely impossbile to use Hibernate I should be fine with OJB as well. Olli Tim O'Brien wrote: For Oliver's sake, could we submit the question to ASF counsel and see if there is any way to allow us to use Hibernate in even the most round about way. Even though I'm fairly certain of the answer (no). It would be nice to get a firm answer - yes or no - from an officer or the board. What is the best way to bring this to the boards' attention. Email to Greg, copying Robyn Wagner? I just don't feel comfortable telling someone this is impossible without getting a firmer legal opinion. I'm certain that IANAL applies to most of us. Tim O'Brien -Original Message- From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:03 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License? Mahler Thomas wrote: You might consider Using Apache OJB (http://db.apache.org/ojb). It can do everything that hibernate can do - and more. We don't hear much (enough?) about OJB. Has anyone written up an OJB for Hibernate Users type document? --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Sep 27, 2004, at 11:37 AM, Tim O'Brien wrote: For Oliver's sake, could we submit the question to ASF counsel and see if there is any way to allow us to use Hibernate in even the most round about way. Our counsel would have no opinion different than what you've heard. We (the ASF) have tried to get a clear statement from the FSF, and so far, none have been forthcoming. Even though I'm fairly certain of the answer (no). It would be nice to get a firm answer - yes or no - from an officer or the board. What is the best way to bring this to the boards' attention. Email to Greg, copying Robyn Wagner? board_hat no /board_hat This is an issue important to me as well - I'd like to see this go away, so we can use software w/ the LGPL. But until the problem is resolved, right now the only way is to use via a dynamic dispatch mechanism. I've been thinking about this for a while, and have some funny solutions requiring a bit of classloader magic. Happy to start something in the sandbox :) geir I just don't feel comfortable telling someone this is impossible without getting a firmer legal opinion. I'm certain that IANAL applies to most of us. Tim O'Brien -Original Message- From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:03 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License? Mahler Thomas wrote: You might consider Using Apache OJB (http://db.apache.org/ojb). It can do everything that hibernate can do - and more. We don't hear much (enough?) about OJB. Has anyone written up an OJB for Hibernate Users type document? --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:06:09 +0200, Oliver Zeigermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I understand I can not check in the jar. But what about having it included in a Maven like build with dynamically downloading it. Theoretically, I suspect you could write such a build target, but you would not be able to distribute the results of such a build. -- Martin Cooper I was wondering if the dynamic linking thing hasn't be explitictely clarified in this: http://www.hibernate.org/196.html Or is the above still not satisfying? Just wondering... Oliver Henri Yandell wrote: Correct. We can't check in LGPL, and I don't believe you can check in code that depends on LGPL. The reason for this is that their interpretation of dynamic linking is debatable and the ASF takes the other side in that debate. The options appear to be to either have a plugin module which depends on the LGPL library and is a java.net or SF project etc, or to find a BSD dependency. Hen On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Tim O'Brien wrote: AFAIK IANAL, no. Checking in LGPL binaries is not something we can do here. Tim -Original Message- From: Oliver Zeigermann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:38 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License? Folks, I was considering to use Hibernate for persistence in the Slide project. Now, Hibernate is LGPL, but in http://www.hibernate.org/196.html the authors explain their idea of dynamic linking as mentioned in the LGPL text. This looks just fine to me. Additionally, I understand I can even put the jars into the Slide CVS if I include a reference to the license, right? Thanks for any comments in advance, Oliver - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: This is an issue important to me as well - I'd like to see this go away, so we can use software w/ the LGPL. But until the problem is resolved, right now the only way is to use via a dynamic dispatch mechanism. I've been thinking about this for a while, and have some funny solutions requiring a bit of classloader magic. Happy to start something in the sandbox :) Is the problem with LGPL at ASF only a Java issue? Can httpd depend on LGPL'd code? If so, then funny solutions sound useful. If it's a problem for all ASF languages, then it's pointless to do anything. One funny solution... generic-xxx, like commons-logging. Except it's not compiled at all. generic-orm is an API we define as an abstraction of hibernate, ojb, others. It is not an interface, but an actual class that delegates calls at runtime over to the implementation. It would use a configuration file to handle the delegation. generic-regexp would be a nice one to have, like commons-regexp but including the LGPL'd gnu-regexp. Also a simpler version than ORM stuff. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Sep 27, 2004, at 4:41 PM, Henri Yandell wrote: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: This is an issue important to me as well - I'd like to see this go away, so we can use software w/ the LGPL. But until the problem is resolved, right now the only way is to use via a dynamic dispatch mechanism. I've been thinking about this for a while, and have some funny solutions requiring a bit of classloader magic. Happy to start something in the sandbox :) Is the problem with LGPL at ASF only a Java issue? Can httpd depend on LGPL'd code? Yes, because the LGPL was 'fixed' back in 92 to solve the problem what what C and C++ compilers do, namely create combined work at compile time. For example, an inline function in a C++ header can be included completely by the compiler in an object file. I think that' why they have the weird wording in the LGPL that allows 20 lines or less, or something like that. If so, then funny solutions sound useful. If it's a problem for all ASF languages, then it's pointless to do anything. It applies to Java, and I'm sure other languages as well. IMO the problem is that they patched the LGPL for a specific technology, and the world has moved on. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote: On Sep 27, 2004, at 4:41 PM, Henri Yandell wrote: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: This is an issue important to me as well - I'd like to see this go away, so we can use software w/ the LGPL. But until the problem is resolved, right now the only way is to use via a dynamic dispatch mechanism. I've been thinking about this for a while, and have some funny solutions requiring a bit of classloader magic. Happy to start something in the sandbox :) Is the problem with LGPL at ASF only a Java issue? Can httpd depend on LGPL'd code? Yes, because the LGPL was 'fixed' back in 92 to solve the problem what what C and C++ compilers do, namely create combined work at compile time. For example, an inline function in a C++ header can be included completely by the compiler in an object file. I think that' why they have the weird wording in the LGPL that allows 20 lines or less, or something like that. If so, then funny solutions sound useful. If it's a problem for all ASF languages, then it's pointless to do anything. It applies to Java, and I'm sure other languages as well. IMO the problem is that they patched the LGPL for a specific technology, and the world has moved on. I know I keep repeating myself all the time, but for the special case of Hibernate doesn't this http://www.hibernate.org/196.html clarify the issue? Of course if you people say I must not use it in a Apache Project it is ok with me, but I still do not get the point why. But then, maybe it isn't that important that I - personally - get it ;) Oliver - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Sep 27, 2004, at 4:20 PM, Oliver Zeigermann wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr wrote: On Sep 27, 2004, at 4:41 PM, Henri Yandell wrote: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: This is an issue important to me as well - I'd like to see this go away, so we can use software w/ the LGPL. But until the problem is resolved, right now the only way is to use via a dynamic dispatch mechanism. I've been thinking about this for a while, and have some funny solutions requiring a bit of classloader magic. Happy to start something in the sandbox :) Is the problem with LGPL at ASF only a Java issue? Can httpd depend on LGPL'd code? Yes, because the LGPL was 'fixed' back in 92 to solve the problem what what C and C++ compilers do, namely create combined work at compile time. For example, an inline function in a C++ header can be included completely by the compiler in an object file. I think that' why they have the weird wording in the LGPL that allows 20 lines or less, or something like that. If so, then funny solutions sound useful. If it's a problem for all ASF languages, then it's pointless to do anything. It applies to Java, and I'm sure other languages as well. IMO the problem is that they patched the LGPL for a specific technology, and the world has moved on. I know I keep repeating myself all the time, but for the special case of Hibernate doesn't this http://www.hibernate.org/196.html clarify the issue? Of course if you people say I must not use it in a Apache Project it is ok with me, but I still do not get the point why. But then, maybe it isn't that important that I - personally - get it ;) I don't think it fixes it because it's just some web page - it's not part of the license. I've asked Gavin directly to modify the license to reflect this, hoping that it would resolve the problem. He refused :) geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
-Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] board_hat no /board_hat Alright, that's a clear answer. Thanks for bringing out the board_hat xml tag. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Sep 27, 2004, at 4:20 PM, Oliver Zeigermann wrote: I know I keep repeating myself all the time, but for the special case of Hibernate doesn't this http://www.hibernate.org/196.html From the link above: Using Hibernate (by importing Hibernate's public interfaces in your Java code), and extending Hibernate (by subclassing or implemention of an extension interface) is considered by the authors of Hibernate to be dynamic linking. Hence our interpretation of the LGPL is that the use of the unmodified Hibernate source does not affect the license of your application code. What if the authors change there mind? Until this opinion is expressed in the legal license, it means nothing. As an independent contractor I learned the hard way that you get everything in the legal contract. Also Hibernate is controlled by JBoss and we all know how happy they are to bring in the lawyers. -dain - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
Thanks to all coming the long way to explain to me and being patient. Bottom line: http://www.hibernate.org/196.html does not mean anything as authors (might) change their mind (Dain) it's just some web page - it's not part of the license (LGPL) (Geir). So there is no way to use Hibernate or any other LGPL stuff in Jakarta Apache. Oliver Oliver Zeigermann wrote: Folks, I was considering to use Hibernate for persistence in the Slide project. Now, Hibernate is LGPL, but in http://www.hibernate.org/196.html the authors explain their idea of dynamic linking as mentioned in the LGPL text. This looks just fine to me. Additionally, I understand I can even put the jars into the Slide CVS if I include a reference to the license, right? Thanks for any comments in advance, Oliver - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
