RE: velocity lovers...
-Mensaje original- De: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Enviado el: jueves 5 de diciembre de 2002 1:38 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: velocity lovers... I'm completely amazed and disappointed that Sun is spending so much time, energy and money towards creating so much crap. ... again. Un saludo, Alex.
Re: velocity lovers...
Wow. Java Server Faces really sucks ass. Much more than I could have ever imagined. No wonder I didn't bother looking at it before. What a confusing, over engineered, under thought out way to do things! I'm really surprised that Sun thinks that anyone is going to use this crap and actually like it. [...] I'm completely amazed and disappointed that Sun is spending so much time, energy and money towards creating so much crap. I usually call 'em Java Server Feces... But that's just me... :-) Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: velocity lovers...
What's troublesome is that the EA they leaked makes these bold claims as the end-all of Java web application development ... yet the demos they provided were creaky, poorly executing and poorly written (also, pretty darn ugly!) Some of the things they want to do are very ambitious, but the APIs are very, very thin. My own experience with Tapestry is that you have to build complex prototypes to find latent problems. I've had this happen repeatedly, where there was a tiny error in my abstractions that needed amending when someone pushed it to the limit (in case your interested, when I build the portal demo, there was a problem when one page would include some content from a different page ... the URLs for links taken from the second page but rendered as part of the first page weren't quite right -- in other words, a very complex scenario). Of course, open source projects are very nimble, I'm usually able to fix things in a backwards-compatible way and be done with it. JSF makes claims that it can handle very complex cases, but I won't believe it until I see it. What I fear will happen is that JSF 1.0 will be released and all the tool builders will standardize on it, then latent problems will be discovered (sure they'll be fixed in JSF 1.1, but then you have to wait for the vendors to update their tools ...) and everyone will be back to scriptlets and custom JSP taglibs to work around the problems ... and developers will have lost, not gained, productivity in the meantime. - Original Message - From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 6:04 AM Subject: Re: velocity lovers... Wow. Java Server Faces really sucks ass. Much more than I could have ever imagined. No wonder I didn't bother looking at it before. What a confusing, over engineered, under thought out way to do things! I'm really surprised that Sun thinks that anyone is going to use this crap and actually like it. [...] I'm completely amazed and disappointed that Sun is spending so much time, energy and money towards creating so much crap. I usually call 'em Java Server Feces... But that's just me... :-) Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
velocity lovers...
http://www.miceda-data.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/2002/12/04#Java/velocity -Andy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: velocity lovers...
Dave's da man... On Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 12:20 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: http://www.miceda-data.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/2002/12/04#Java/velocity -Andy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-355-2219(w) Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: velocity lovers...
on 2002/12/4 9:20 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.miceda-data.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/2002/12/04#Java/velocity -Andy Wow. Java Server Faces really sucks ass. Much more than I could have ever imagined. No wonder I didn't bother looking at it before. What a confusing, over engineered, under thought out way to do things! I'm really surprised that Sun thinks that anyone is going to use this crap and actually like it. I can hear the UI designers now... What does this mean? faces:textentry_input id='name' faces:validator className='javax.faces.validator.LengthValidator'/ faces:attributename= 'javax.faces.validator.LengthValidator.MINIMUM' value='3'/ /faces:textentry_input I think it is really funny that the validation code is being put into the templates. Let me guess, you don't have to do that if you don't want to. What happened to taking the APPLICATION LOGIC out of the View? If someone even starts to say to me that JSF is anywhere close to MVC, I think I will have to violently expel my lunch in their direction. Ha! I'm completely amazed and disappointed that Sun is spending so much time, energy and money towards creating so much crap. Bah. -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: velocity lovers...
While I haven't looked at Faces yet, this seems to be a not uncommmon trend at Sun. Look at the logging API in Java 1.4. Why? log4j is better, pretty much a defacto standard, and freely available under a license that nobody can complain about. It is sad that they felt they had to put logging in just to have another feature bullet point. Faces seems to be another step in the wrong direction, somewhat like JSP. It is odd that in much J2EE literatue, tons of EJB literature, and even Sun's J2EE Blueprints books, that they harp on MVC so much, yet they have things like JSP and Faces that don't do a good job ov that. Sure, you can sort of munge JSP to do some separation, but, well, I obviously don't need to say anymore about that here... -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 4:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: velocity lovers... on 2002/12/4 9:20 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.miceda-data.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/2002/12/04#Java/velocity -Andy Wow. Java Server Faces really sucks ass. Much more than I could have ever imagined. No wonder I didn't bother looking at it before. What a confusing, over engineered, under thought out way to do things! I'm really surprised that Sun thinks that anyone is going to use this crap and actually like it. I can hear the UI designers now... What does this mean? faces:textentry_input id='name' faces:validator className='javax.faces.validator.LengthValidator'/ faces:attributename= 'javax.faces.validator.LengthValidator.MINIMUM' value='3'/ /faces:textentry_input I think it is really funny that the validation code is being put into the templates. Let me guess, you don't have to do that if you don't want to. What happened to taking the APPLICATION LOGIC out of the View? If someone even starts to say to me that JSF is anywhere close to MVC, I think I will have to violently expel my lunch in their direction. Ha! I'm completely amazed and disappointed that Sun is spending so much time, energy and money towards creating so much crap. Bah. -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: velocity lovers...
While I agree with everyhting you're saing. I read that over twice and I'm like Why? I mean why? So lets say for a moment you're one of the new breed whom use that epitomy of object orientation better known as Java Server Pages. Well really, what does this Java Server Faces add over Struts? I don't really see any value added here. Sun seems desperately determined to hand the kingdom over. Its a real good thing we have an Oligarchy of tool vendors running the show. Which means you need bloated garbage churned out so they can sell the really big dollar stuff to make it work. Put that against the Microsoft business model of cornering the market with mass production/marketing/bundling and I don't have a great deal of faith in it. Not that Microsoft puts out quality... But I don't look at it and say Why??? or What's the point? so much as with the cruft thats coming out of the Java Communist Party.. Maybe its just me. -Andy Wow. Java Server Faces really sucks ass. Much more than I could have ever imagined. No wonder I didn't bother looking at it before. What a confusing, over engineered, under thought out way to do things! I'm really surprised that Sun thinks that anyone is going to use this crap and actually like it. I can hear the UI designers now... What does this mean? faces:textentry_input id='name' faces:validator className='javax.faces.validator.LengthValidator'/ faces:attributename= 'javax.faces.validator.LengthValidator.MINIMUM' value='3'/ /faces:textentry_input I think it is really funny that the validation code is being put into the templates. Let me guess, you don't have to do that if you don't want to. What happened to taking the APPLICATION LOGIC out of the View? If someone even starts to say to me that JSF is anywhere close to MVC, I think I will have to violently expel my lunch in their direction. Ha! I'm completely amazed and disappointed that Sun is spending so much time, energy and money towards creating so much crap. Bah. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: velocity lovers...
on 2002/12/4 5:57 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Java Communist Party LOL! -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: velocity lovers...
The structure of the JCP is the same as the structure of your average communist party, at least as I undestand it. You have the party loyal whom run divied up industries (which can't be called industrialists), you have a strongman (Sun). Occasionally, this is a bid feudal with a rebelling industrialist, but the strongman tends to appease the rebelling industrialists because they are required to hold on to power. However, if the strongman shows weakness or starts fumbling the ball, the industrialists will sponsor a new strongman and a coup is held. Once Sun screws this up enough IBM and others will move to Microsoft and we'll have the next phase of the show. Where are we the working class who makes it work in this process? Pawns in the game. -Andy Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2002/12/4 5:57 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Java Communist Party LOL! -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: velocity lovers...
Any time man. Any time. Scott Sanders wrote: The structure of the JCP is the same as the structure of your average communist party, at least as I undestand it. You have the party loyal whom run divied up industries (which can't be called industrialists), you have a strongman (Sun). Occasionally, this is a bid feudal with a rebelling industrialist, but the strongman tends to appease the rebelling industrialists because they are required to hold on to power. However, if the strongman shows weakness or starts fumbling the ball, the industrialists will sponsor a new strongman and a coup is held. Once Sun screws this up enough IBM and others will move to Microsoft and we'll have the next phase of the show. Where are we the working class who makes it work in this process? Pawns in the game. -Andy Andy, this is an email that I must keep archived. This is truly a gem. Thank you. Scott -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
re[2]: velocity lovers...
Re: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=10390294901r=1w=2 | Where are we the working class who makes it work in this process? Pawns | in the game. | | -Andy It may be motivating to remember that blog (from the colonies) is a candidate for the empire's OED: http://www.oed.com/public/news/0206.htm Pawns are transparent (landless) and social (ants). http://www.despair.com/sacrifice.html Identity is increasingly social. Opaque societies don't influence dictionaries. http://www.libraries.psu.edu/iasweb/locke/ch7-18c.htm#00419 All hail the mighty pawn. Rich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
