[Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered?
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- Paulo, your post below is very confusing like a few other posters we know.. You are supposed to make the case that in Goa after 1961, the people have no freedom and are slaves. Yet you make an-about-face on yourself. Your example below suggest democracy in Goa is alive and well, both at the individual level and at societal level. The fact that there are not many protests, would suggest after all the griping on Goanet, the native Goans are generally happy with their elected representatives. If you think otherwise, perhaps you (or others) can make a run for political office in Goa on a platform of your choosing. Goan freedom is shown in the frequent free election of representatives; and they being held accountable even after they are in office. Is not that how democracy is supposed to work? Do you think being part of India has helped Goa? Or possibly a free Goa could be another Timor, Anglola or Mozambique? Thank you for making my case and giving specific examples about the difference in Goa, pre- and post-1961. Regards, GL --- Paulo Colaco Dias Of course I have seen. Haven't you? Not many but yes, there have been cases especially in the last months with the SEZ and other atrocities in Goa. Like Mario, you must have no clue of what is going on in Goa these days. -- Gilbert wrote: Vis-a-vis India, the actions of the Goans speak louder than your words. Goans are happy with the legal rights that they have and exercise through numerous elections. Those who are unhappy can always march, go on hunger-strike, etc. IN GOA.? Have you seen anybody in Goa do that since 1961?
Re: [Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered?
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- Further to my recent posting, here is a chronological history of Goa - does tell a lot! That was provided to me by my close friend. 1367 - Conquest of the kingdom of Kadamba (of which Goa was the capital) by the empire of Vijaynagar. 1380-1454: Rule of Vijaynagara governors. 1469 - Capture of Goa by the Muslim Bahmani king, Muhammad Shah II. 1454-1471: Rule by Bankapur chiefs. 1488 - Capture of Goa by Yusuf Adil Shah (the Sabayo) of Bijapur. 1471-1489: Rule of Sultan of Bijapur. 1498 - Discovery of the route to India by Vasco da Gama. 1489-1510: Yusuf Adilshaha rules over Goa. 1510 - Capture of Goa by Afonso de Albuquerque. 1515 - Defence of Goa against Ismail Adil Shah (the Idalcan). 1542 - Arrival of St. Francis Xavier. 1543-1783: Portuguese aquire Bardez and Salcette from Ibraim Adilshah. 1570 - Siege of Goa by the Idalcan. 1510-1543: Portuguese rule over a limited territory of Goa, mostly Tiswadi islands. 1595 - First Dutch voyage to the Indies. 1600 - English East India Company's charter. 1642 - Treaty between England and Portugal. 1683 - Attack on Goa by Marathas under Sambhaji. 1695 - Viceroy moves his residence out of the city of Velha Goa. 1741 - Marathas and Bhonsles defeated by Portuguese forces. 1749 - Expulsion of the Jesuits. 1759 - Viceroy takes up residence in Panjim. 1764 - Acquisition of New Conquests. 1778 - Acquisition of Pernem. 1783 - Portuguese annex Pernem. 1788-1799: Portuguese rule extended over entire Goa. 1797 - Occupation of Goa by British Army. 1813 - Withdrawal of British Army. 1821 - Goa represented in Portuguese parliament. 1843 - Panjim declared the capital of Goa. 1881 - Commencement of railway building in Goa. 1905 - Development of iron and manganese ore mines. 1947 - Indian independence. 1961 - Goa incorporated into the Indian Union. Dec-19,1961: Conquest of Goa by the army of Nehru. 1987 - August 12th, Goa gained statehood. 1961-1987: Union territory of Goa, Daman and Diu. May-30,1987:Goa becomes a state within India.
[Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered ?
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- This is a sequential response to first Jose and then Paulo. Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:58:20 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc [EMAIL PROTECTED] I submit that you can grab ... but NOT grab BACK anything you did not possess .. in the first place. Mario responds: Good point, Jose. Paulo has made the same point. After re-consideration I withdraw the qualifier back because India was not one sovereign country in the early 1500s. Jose wrote: Out of fairness ...no doubt ...Mario would suggest that India returns the Andaman Islands to whoever it was forcibly and illegitimately colonized from by those Brits. Mario responds: There is nothing fair in geopolitics, Jose, just national self interest backed by power or lack therof. Thus, in my never humble opinion and my theory that national strength prevails in the end, tempered always by national self interest, whoever the Andamans belonged to before the Brits seized it will have to come and grab it back from India. Jose wrote: They are saying (effectively) in Marioesque fashion - If you cannot defend the hills and fields or even your houses tough. We gone with it. That's the way the world works. Mario observes: I'm not sure Jose has gotten the point which is That's the way the world works. Nothing Marioesque about it. Mario only describes, mostly with great accuracy and precision, how the world works. Jose wrote: That is also the way the Commie world worked. Perhaps the reason Gadgil is supporting it. Strange though that Mario would be supporting the Commie line of thought. Mario observes: Now we know that Jose didn't get it:-)) His confusion leads him to surmise, incorrectly, that Mario, by describing how the REAL geopolitical world works, supports some Commie line of thought. Strange that Jose fails to note that this was also the Portuguese line of thought, and the colonial line of thought, not to mention the Portophiles line of thought who wanted Goa to be ruled by force and intimidation by the white Portuguese they identified with after knowing that it had been grabbed by force and ruled by intimidation. Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:43:02 +0100 From: Paulo Colaco Dias [EMAIL PROTECTED] I believe I made it very clear that we are all aware that Goa was colonized by Portugal and the Portuguese were our conquerors. There is no denying that fact. Mario responds: Thanks for acknowledging this, Paulo. Portugal grabbed Goa by force. India grabbed Goa by force, considering it part of the new India, and incorporated it just like Pondicherry. Portugal was unable to stop India. The UN was unable to stop India. The UN has accepted Goa as part of India. Case closed. Your revisionist history and suggestions of what coulda, shoulda, woulda happened from your point of view is not going to happen. Time to move on. Paulo wrote: Of course conquests and land grabbing do not make any sense if the UN exist. Mario responds: Paulo, have you followed the recent history and goings on in the middle-east and Africa? Has the existence of the UN made much difference to all the conflicts and genocides going on? They even voted down a US resolution declaring Darfur a genocide - because that would have meant that the UN would have to intervene with force to stop the genocide. Paulo wrote: Check your facts. The sovereignty of Portugal over Portuguese India was recognised by the entire world, Mario responds: Checked my facts. Found that this applied to all colonies at the time. Also found that Kuwait was a country, not a colony. While Paulo and his ilk are still in dreamland, the entire world now recognizes Goa as part of India. THAT is how much what the entire world recognizes at any given time is worth. Paulo wrote [referring to Goa] Of course it was not free. And it is still not free! Mario responds: The last time I checked, Goa was part of a democratic India, which is about as free as it is going to get. Besides, I'm sure you agree that Goa is free from domination by white Europeans and their lackeys. Paulo wrote: Mario, have you been to Goa recently? Maybe you are the only one that has not noticed that Goans (regardless of their religion) are becoming a minority in Goa. Mario responds: Very recently, Paulo, and I go there every year. No, I am not the only one who has noticed that the majority of the population of Goa are still old Goans whose roots go back to pre-colonial days. Furthermore, just as you have migrated to wherever you live, there are
[Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered?
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- Wed Jun 25 20:54:28 PDT 2008 Oscar Lobo oscarlobo1 at optusnet.com.au The Portuguese gave Goa stability after they took over in 1500, stability that existed till their ousting by India's troops in Dec 1961. Mario responds: Oscar, You are absolutely correct about the stability of Goa under the Portuguese. I also hear that the trains always ran on time in pre-WW-II Italy and Germany, and Iraq under Saddam was a very stable country, as is Cuba:-)) Oscar wrote: One thing that we Goans need to understand is that the Portuguese treated Goans better than the British treated Indians. I recall someone telling me that during the British rule there used to be Notices in Restaurants stating Indians and dogs not allowed I have not seen any such notices in Goa. Mario Goveia may not have lived in Goa! Mario responds: I, too, have heard rumors that the Portuguese were nicer than the Brits. The Portuguese are supposed to be the least skin-color-conscious of all Europeans and show no superiority complex, but that may be because they are not really superior to anyone:-)) But YOU need to understand that they were selectively nice, as long as you bowed before them. I recall that my family were warned to stay away from Goa throughout the 50's or risk being arrested because Goa's wonderful white Portuguese masters did not like the fact that some of my relatives were vociferously demanding that they leave. Anyway, what does any of this have to do with the facts as they stand right now? Goa has been a state in India for several years now and the status quo has been accepted by the UN and everyone else around the world. I'm sorry to inform you that there is nothing that you Portophiles - for whom Uncle Alfred would use the obsolete term Lusophiles - can do about it other than use this situation improve your appetite and to cure low blood pressure:-)) PS - The improvement of appetite comes from the increase in hydrochloric acid in the stomach when the Portophiles dream of Goa and how they may still be the preferred community of the white European colonists. If they don't eat something right away, or take an antacid, they may experience heartburn:-))
Re: [Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:goanet- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gilbert Lawrence Sent: 24 June 2008 23:39 To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered? 1) Gilbert wrote: I may be wrong, but never in history has anybody gotten their legal rights by just writing letters / posts; or by merely sitting in an arm- chair; or worse still, sitting in an easy-chair 1000 miles away. Are you suggesting that Goa and Goans make a breakthrough in 5000 years of recorded history? Paulo's response: In developed societies, you put your point of view in writing first. That is how you get your basic rights protected and non-violated. For the more complex legal rights, if you write to the right people and if you create enough momentum, you may be able to influence public opinion by simply writing. I agree it takes more than that but it surely is the beginning. That is what celebrities like Wendell Rodricks are starting to do. 2) Gilbert wrote: Vis-a-vis India, the actions of the Goans speak louder than your words. Goans are happy with the legal rights that they have and exercise through numerous elections. Those who are unhappy can always march, go on hunger-strike, etc. IN GOA. Have you seen anybody in Goa do that since 1961? Paulo's response: Of course I have seen. Haven't you? Not many but yes, there have been cases especially in the last months with the SEZ and other atrocities in Goa. Like Mario, you must have no clue of what is going on in Goa these days. Best Paulo.
[Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered?
Was Goa liberated or Conquered? - Oscar Lobo In the 1500's, INDIA DID NOT EXIST, period. It was basically a bundle of petty kingdoms ruled by kings and chieftains. India came into existence only when the Brits left in 1947. In other words, the present country INDIA was a late creation of the Brits. No one is in doubt that the Portuguese conquered Goa in the 1500's, but then, Goa in those times was in a state of constant conquering by different chieftains/rulers/kings. The Portuguese gave Goa stability after they took over in 1500, stability that existed till their ousting by India's troops in Dec 1961. One thing that we Goans need to understand is that the Portuguese treated Goans better than the British treated Indians. I recall someone telling me that during the British rule there used to be Notices in Restaurants stating Indians and dogs not allowed I have not seen any such notices in Goa. Mario Goveia may not have lived in Goa!! Goa was invaded according to the U.N. resolution.
Re: [Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered ?
Mario is right: *** When he says that the Portuguese in Goa were * conquerors *. There is no denying this fact. We all know it very well and it is in the world history books. But Mario is wrong: *** When he says that this is a Portophile issue. In most cases, this has nothing to do with Portugal or the Portuguese anymore. The Portuguese couldn't care less. In fact, today one could even blame the Portuguese for abandoning the true Goan cause in 1975. One could even blame the Portuguese for handing over Goa on a plate illegitimately because that Portuguese government of 1975 was merely a temporary government * not elected democratically *. So they had absolutely no business to mess about with the Goan issue and they lacked a democratic mandate from the people of Portugal in 1975. Despite protests from prominent Goans in 1975, the temporary Portuguese government not elected democratically decided to recognize the annexation of Goa by India but no doubt this Portuguese action was illegitimate and can be challenged even today. This was the last backstabbing from Portugal to Goans (1975)! This discussion - has to do with us Goans when Nehru said in the Indian Parliament that he would march over Goa regardless of the wishes of Goans. He was not interested at all about what Goans really wanted. And no doubt that there were three clear options all with considerable supporters inside and outside Goa: 1) Independent nation, 2) Merger with Indian Union, 3) Continue under Portuguese rule. - has to do with us Goans when India invaded our territory. A territory that should have been liberated from the Portuguese and handed over to Goans to decide our future in accordance to the real meaning of liberation. In the same way as it happened with the liberation of Kuwait from Iraq. - has to do with us Goans and the fact that according to the Supreme Court of India, Goa was acquired by conquest and subjugation when India took over on the 19th Dec 1961. (ref: Supreme Court of India determination.) - has to do with us Goans when some Goans approached Nehru in 1962 and 1963 for a plebiscite and the request was denied and totally ignored. - has to do with us Goans when the most active freedom fighters approached Nehru with the expectation to be given leading jobs in the supposedly post Dec 1961-free Goa but were sent home with the response that they had already done enough and the jobs went to the Indian bureaucrats from Delhi and Bombay instead. - has to do with us Goans when slowly our laws were changed and our comunidade lands were stolen and violated. - has to do with us Goans when we became a minority in our own land. - has to do with us Goans when the central government decides our future. - has to do with us Goans when we failed to guarantee some sort of protection for our distinct Goan identity. - has to do with us Goans when we continue to claim that we have been liberated (wrongly) when in fact we have been conquered and subjugated, yet again! Best regards Paulo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mario Goveia Sent: 23 June 2008 15:52 To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered ? Mario responds: So, in response to the debate I would say that, in my never humble opinion, the Portuguese in Goa were conquered and Goa was liberated from India's point of view. Forty seven years later the debate remains something that keeps up the blood pressure of many Goan Portophiles, especially those with nostalgic delusions of the supremacy of white Europeans and have entirely too much time on their hands. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1514 - Release Date: 23/06/2008 07:17
Re: [Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered ?
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:53:32 +0100 From: Paulo Colaco Dias [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mario is wrong: *** When he says that this is a Portophile issue. Mario responds: Mario??? Wrong WHAT??? Surely you jest:-)) How could anyone come to such a bizarre conclusion? What the heck is Paulo talking about?:-)) Paulo wrote: In most cases, this has nothing to do with Portugal or the Portuguese anymore. The Portuguese couldn't care less. In fact, today one could even blame the Portuguese for abandoning the true Goan cause in 1975. One could even blame the Portuguese for handing over Goa on a plate illegitimately because that Portuguese government of 1975 was merely a temporary government * not elected democratically *. So they had absolutely no business to mess about with the Goan issue and they lacked a democratic mandate from the people of Portugal in 1975. Mario responds: OK. Now I see what is going on here. To begin with, Paulo doesn't know the difference between a Portophile, which would be for purposes of this discussion a native Goan Portuguese sychophant believer in the supremacy of white Europeans, and a real Portuguese person. Secondly, Paulo doesn't seem to realize that Goa was forcibly and illegitimately colonized in the early 1500's, when many European countries did the same thing, but that the beginning of the end of the era of colonization had started in 1947, the much more powerful Brits and French had left, perhaps reluctantly but somewhat graciously, and the far weaker Portuguese were clinging to a sophistry that made sense only to them, that Goa was an overseas province of Portugal. India simply grabbed back in 1961 territory that had been grabbed in the early 1500s. That's the way the world works. If you cannot defend territory that you hold, you have to move on. A democratically elected government in Portugal would have made little difference because Portugal was in no position to militarily defend Goa against India in 1947. In fact, a democratically elected government in Portugal may have been far more gracious and civilized and withdrawn on its own. Paulo wrote: Despite protests from prominent Goans in 1975, the temporary Portuguese government not elected democratically decided to recognize the annexation of Goa by India but no doubt this Portuguese action was illegitimate and can be challenged even today. This was the last backstabbing from Portugal to Goans (1975)! Mario responds: The prominent Goans Paulo refers to were all lackeys of the Portuguese who had benefited under Portuguese rule at the expense of the rest of Goa. This is like saying, despite protests by Brit expatriates and Anglo-Indians, the Brits gave up India. Some of my relatives, on the other hand, were active Goan freedom fighters because of whom we were barred from entering Goa throughout the fifties under threat of being arrested by the colonists and their lackeys among native Goans. We celebrated when Goa was liberated and we were free to visit Goa again. Paulo wrote: - has to do with us Goans when India invaded our territory. A territory that should have been liberated from the Portuguese and handed over to Goans to decide our future in accordance to the real meaning of liberation. In the same way as it happened with the liberation of Kuwait from Iraq. Mario observes: Kuwait was a sovereign country before it was invaded by Iraq, not an illegal and obsolete colony of some second rate European country. Paulo wrote: - has to do with us Goans and the fact that according to the Supreme Court of India, Goa was acquired by conquest and subjugation when India took over on the 19th Dec 1961. Mario responds: The Supreme Court was simply describing the facts. What is more important is that the annexation of Goa has been accepted by the United Nations and has been a fait accompli for decades now. Paulo wrote: - has to do with us Goans when the most active freedom fighters approached Nehru with the expectation to be given leading jobs in the supposedly post Dec 1961-free Goa but were sent home with the response that they had already done enough and the jobs went to the Indian bureaucrats from Delhi and Bombay instead. Mario responds: Oh, I don't know. My relatives who were freedom fighters did not do so with the expectation of receiving government jobs. Some of them did get such jobs, others went on with their businesses and professions. Anyway, I'm glad to see that Paulo acknowledges the notion of freedom fighters which suggests that Goa was not free, which it obviously was not. Anyone who crossed the Portuguese colonists found that out in a hurry. Paulo wrote: - has to do with us Goans when we became a minority in our own land. Mario responds: I wonder if Paulo is confusing Goan Christians with Goans? Paulo wrote: - has to do with us Goans when the central government decides our future. Mario responds: The central government treats Goa like any other state in
[Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered ?
Mario Goveia wrote to Paulo: [1] Goa was forcibly and illegitimately colonized in the early 1500's, [2] India simply grabbed back in 1961 territory that had been grabbed in the early 1500s. [3] That's the way the world works. If you cannot defend territory that you hold, you have to move on. == jc's comment: For once, I agree with Mario Goveia in at least 97.67% - of what he has written above. The only word (1 out of 43) I disagree with is back. I submit that you can grab ... but NOT grab BACK anything you did not possess .. in the first place. If Goa belonged to the India which existed in the 1500s - Goa and its wealth should be divided among India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Burma. In that case ...it would be the real Grab Back. As it is ...it remains a Grab. Out of fairness ...no doubt ...Mario would suggest that India returns the Andaman Islands to whoever it was forcibly and illegitimately colonized from by those Brits. But, Mario does make a pragmatic closing (as quoted above) remark. In light of his and his amigos contemporary logik ani confusao, he correctly says: if You cannot defend it ...you lose. That is what Rajan Parrikar's 'bhaille are doing now. They are saying (effectively) in Marioesque fashion - If you cannot defend the hills and fields or even your houses tough. We gone with it. That's the way the world works. That is also the way the Commie world worked. Perhaps the reason Gadgil is supporting it. Strange though that Mario would be supporting the Commie line of thought. No wonder, Selma gone to live in a gated community, even though Cornel said Hey I ain't see no gate? Where der Gate is? This ain't no Gated community. Oh BTW: Your Rice Curry was good but I was looking for some dessert. Excuse Moi! juss me jc
Re: [Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered ?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mario Goveia Sent: 24 June 2008 16:05 To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered ? 1) Mario wrote: Secondly, Paulo doesn't seem to realize that Goa was forcibly and illegitimately colonized in the early 1500's, when many European countries did the same thing, but that the beginning of the end of the era of colonization had started in 1947, the much more powerful Brits and French had left, perhaps reluctantly but somewhat graciously, and the far weaker Portuguese were clinging to a sophistry that made sense only to them, that Goa was an overseas province of Portugal. Paulo's response: Mario must not understand English. I believe I made it very clear that we are all aware that Goa was colonized by Portugal and the Portuguese were our conquerors. There is no denying that fact. 2) Mario wrote: India simply grabbed back in 1961 territory that had been grabbed in the early 1500s. That's the way the world works. If you cannot defend territory that you hold, you have to move on. Paulo's response: Your sentence would be correct if you omit the word back, ie, India grabbed in 1961 territory that had been grabbed in the early 1500s (from the Portuguese). Please do not use the word back because I do not think I need to explain to you that India as a country did not exist before 1947. Do not join the group of ignorant people that claim that Goa always belonged to India. That is completely nonsense. Goa belonged to the Indian subcontinent, not to the newly created country called India (1947). Allow me to point out the differences between early 1500s to 1961. A) Four and a half centuries apart. B) India did recognize the existence of a neighbouring country called Portugal. C) India did have a consulate of India in Goa. D) Both India and Portugal were both members of the UN in 1961. E) Of course conquests and land grabbing do not make any sense if the UN exist. 3) Mario wrote: A democratically elected government in Portugal would have made little difference because Portugal was in no position to militarily defend Goa against India in 1947. In fact, a democratically elected government in Portugal may have been far more gracious and civilized and withdrawn on its own. Paulo's response: Yes, and by withdrawing on its own it would have probably granted independence to Goa or at least hear the requests and the wishes of the Goan people. It would probably also have allowed a plebiscite. 4) Mario wrote: This is like saying, despite protests by Brit expatriates and Anglo-Indians, the Brits gave up India. Paulo's response: The Brits gave independence to British India. The Brits gave independence to the entity that they themselves created. In the same way, Goans should have expected the Portuguese to give independence to Portuguese India or at least be liberated from the Portuguese by India and given the option to decide their own future democratically. Got it? Did you understand the difference? 5) Mario wrote: Kuwait was a sovereign country before it was invaded by Iraq, not an illegal and obsolete colony of some second rate European country. Paulo's response: Check your facts. The sovereignty of Portugal over Portuguese India was recognised by the entire world, including the UN Organisation and the Indian Union since 1947 until at least 1953 because the Indian Union even had a general consulate of India in Goa! Your claim that it was an illegal colony is wrong and does not have a legal stand. 6) Mario wrote: Anyway, I'm glad to see that Paulo acknowledges the notion of freedom fighters which suggests that Goa was not free, which it obviously was not. Anyone who crossed the Portuguese colonists found that out in a hurry. Paulo's response: Of course it was not free. And it is still not free! I am glad that more and more people start realising that, including celebrities like Wendell Rodricks. Only some of us abroad refuse to accept it. 7) Mario wrote: I wonder if Paulo is confusing Goan Christians with Goans? Paulo's response: No Mario, I am not confusing Goan Christians with Goans. I am well aware that Christians have always been a minority. Mario, have you been to Goa recently? Maybe you are the only one that has not noticed that Goans (regardless of their religion) are becoming a minority in Goa. For starters, check who speaks Konkani. But that should not be the only factor because many of the emigrants are learning Konkani to pass as Goans. But everyone (except you) is aware that we are becoming a minority in our motherland. You seem to be living in cuculand if you have not realised this. Everyone is talking about it. If you are not convinced, I give up. As I said before to you on another thread, please take your bike. You won it and you deserve it. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1516 - Release Date: 24/06
[Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered?
Hi Paulo, Most societies when they do not get their legitimate rights, they fight and often die (for them), till they get those inalienable rights. That is what Goans did against the Portuguese. I may be wrong, but never in history has anybody gotten their legal rights by just writing letters / posts; or by merely sitting in an arm-chair; or worse still, sitting in an easy-chair 1000 miles away. Are you suggesting that Goa and Goans make a breakthrough in 5000 years of recorded history? Vis-a-vis India, the actions of the Goans speak louder than your words. Goans are happy with the legal rights that they have and exercise through numerous elections. Those who are unhappy can always march, go on hunger-strike, etc. IN GOA. Have you seen anybody in Goa do that since 1961? Or like civilized people have they not gone to the polls to elect their democratic representatives? Perhaps you should follow the advice you recently gave Samir - Move On Regards, GL -- Paulo Colaco Dias Mario is right, when he says that the Portuguese in Goa were * conquerors *. There is no denying this fact. We all know it very well and it is in the world history books. This discussion: - has to do with us Goans when Nehru said in the Indian Parliament that he would march over Goa regardless of the wishes of Goans. - has to do with us Goans when India invaded our territory. A territory that should have been liberated from the Portuguese and handed over to Goans to decide our future - has to do with us Goans and the fact that according to the Supreme Court of India, Goa was acquired by conquest - has to do with us Goans when some Goans approached Nehru in 1962 and 1963 for a plebiscite and the request was denied and totally ignored. - has to do with us Goans when the most active freedom fighters approached Nehru with the expectation to be given leading jobs - has to do with us Goans when slowly our laws were changed and our comunidade lands were stolen and violated. - has to do with us Goans when we became a minority in our own land. - has to do with us Goans when the central government decides our future. - has to do with us Goans when we failed to guarantee our distinct Goan identity. - has to do with us Goans when we continue to claim that we have been liberated (wrongly) when in fact we have been conquered and subjugated, yet again!
[Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered ?
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:45:20 +0530 From: Rishi [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is an interesting discussion taking place on orkut on events in Goa in 1961. Many history students and academics are part of this community. Mario responds: One can have an opinion about the effects of what happened back in 1961, but is there any dispute about the facts? Fact 1: Goa was a bucolic Portuguese colony in 1961 way past the point when colonies started becoming obsolete with the independence of India in 1947 and the exiting of the Brits and French. These colonists were initially reluctant to leave their cheap source of raw materials and captive markets but the freedom movement led by Gandhi and others prevailed, not in small part because liberal Laborite, Clement Atlee, had replaced fierce opponent of de-colonization, Tory, Winston Churchill, as Prime Minister of Britain. Fact 2: The Portuguese on the other hand continued to hold onto Goa under the bogus sophistry that it was an overseas province until even pacifist India ran out of patience and firmly showed them the door in 1961, pretty much ending the centuries old era of European colonization of countries populated by brown skinned people. So, in response to the debate I would say that, in my never humble opinion, the Portuguese in Goa were conquered and Goa was liberated from India's point of view. Forty seven years later the debate remains something that keeps up the blood pressure of many Goan Portophiles, especially those with nostalgic delusions of the supremacy of white Europeans and have entirely too much time on their hands. Rishi wrote: BTW Orkut seems to be better social networking site than a mailing list like goanet. Mario responds: Rishi, is there some reason for hiding your identity or is this a clandestine social networking kind of thing? I don't exactly see Goanet as a social networking site, but more like an open forum for news and discussion of issues that mostly Goans and some non-Goan friends are interested in.
[Goanet] Was Goa liberated or Conquered ?
There is an interesting discussion taking place on orkut on events in Goa in 1961. Many history students and academics are part of this community. Would you be interested in participating in this thread on a social networking site like orkut ? Just go to http://www.orkut.com and register yourself. Then click on the below link - weight. http://www.orkut.co.in/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=21177tid=5213471783448280383start=1 regards BTW Orkut seems to be better social networking site than a mailing list like goanet
[Goanet] Re. Goa - Liberated or Conquered ?
Dear Vivian, A Goan cannot buy land in Kashmir while a Kashmiri can...and many have ...buy land in Goa. Seems unfair, doesn't it? Pray, tell me which sane and sober Goan want to buy real estate in Srinagar or Uddampur or Baramulla or Sopore or Kargil today. We cannot go to hell while alive but the Devil can come here [or so they say]. any volunteers to go to hell? I believe we need to choose better examples. Amitabh Bachan lost his property in Maharashtra because he did not won farmland in UP or anywhere else. Even a Maharastrian cannot buy farmland in Maharashtra if he is not a farmer already. Ditto for karnataka. Between them, the two states surround Goa. Yet, a non farmer can buy farm land in Goa even if the tenant who sells it does not really own it! An agricultural tenant in Goa cannot legally convert the tenanted land for non-agricultural purposes, let alone sell it. Yet it is happening all the time. The Church cannot sell the Souto Maior estate, yet builders are converting church land in to housing estates at Miramar faster than Afonso de Albuquerque converted Muslim widows in to sailors' wives at the start of the colonial era! The treachery is the same. So is the greed. Laws alone do not help us. We need to wake up and help ourselves and honestly. If American and Russian citizens can own land in Goa, the Kashmiris who are Indian citizens, have a greater right to land in Goa. Mog asundi. Miguel Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:12:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Vivian A. DSouza [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet] Goa - Liberated or Conquered ? In December 1961, Goa was liberated from the Portuguese through the Conquest of Goa by India. We were conquered. Liberated from the Portuguese but Conguered by India. We Goans were eiither too susegard or too inebriated to fight for our freedom. Promises by Nehru to maintain the unique identity of Goa a la Kashmir, were not kept .Non-Kashmiri Indians cannot acquire land in Kashmir but anyone can buy land in Goa. Slowly but surely the Goan identity is being diluted, and the sons of Goa are largely to be blamed for selling their ancestral homes to Delhiites and other foreigners. Our elected officials are also to be blamed for facilitating the process of selling off Goa to enrich themselves. Communidade lands have been usurped by the Government and sold off to Industrialists enriching primarily the elected officials who arrange these deals. Sadly this is the state of affairs in Goa today. -- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. Miguel Braganza, S1 Gracinda Apts, Rajvaddo, Mhapsa 403507 Goa Ph 9822982676 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
