Re: [HOT] Gentle grump
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 15:12:21 -0500 john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: Just for the heck of it I ran JOSM validation on a tile I was mapping before touching it. It turned up duplicate buildings, crossed buildings, lots of highways separated by a few inches etc. Do we need an idiot guide? A sort of this is how to provide the maximum benefit for the least effort. Speaking as an idiot, I would say that the answer to this is yes. Perhaps you think I jest Mine would probably run along the lines of for Africa the convention is only the following values of highways are used for minor highways: path, track, unclassified, use highway=road if you are uncertain. Someone will probably have tagged the secondary and primary highways. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dsecondary If possible use JOSM especially for buildings. Please map buildings as building=yes do not assume it is a house. As a 2-3 times per week mapper (who wishes I could do more), it can get frustrating. Lots of projects point to the Africa roads page but that page is hard to interpret for any particular context. There is a lot of information. And I hate to say it but I use ID and it drives me nuts. This may be from browser/js/platform issues. I am using Firefox 36.0 on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS. But I have looked at JOSM and it is somewhat bewildering and I have no idea how long it would take to get over the first humps of the learning curve. For now, my annoyances with ID are tolerable. If one was able to look at a task and see what tags where being used and how often within just that task, this might help the African roads situation. People use maps to get from one place to another, if the highways are joined up then routing software such as comes as part of OSMAND can be used. Look for highways around settlements that connect to other settlements. Crtlarrow in JOSM will navigate vertically or horizontally making scanning easier. I should see if there is a cheat sheet for JOSM. It would be nice to know what control-shift-elbox-J does and all that. Of course, these may be platform specific (eg Windows keys vs Linux keys vs MacOS X keys). I assume that most of these errors have crept in because JOSM validation was not used. I suspect that the immediate feedback from JOSM might assist our less skilled mappers to improve their skills. Cheerio John There needs to be validation on input and obviously both ID and JOSM do some, but can validation be done on the server? This would be better, especially if the results can be communicated to users. A HOT task could have a Validations tab. I, for one, would like to see the things that have been already fixed in data in that task. It would let me know when there are things not to do. If I am going to make a mistake within a task's maps, it is at least a bit likely that others will make or have made similar mistakes in the same context. Again, seeing the phrase JOSM might assist our less skilled mappers, I have to wonder what you are thinking about here. Any sentence with both JOSM and less skilled mappers in it is going to lead to bad things. JOSM might be easier than it is, but I am not even very sure of that. Sometimes complex tasks require complex tools. One just hopes that there are options between the very-simple-but-also-brain-dead tool and the amazingly-powerful-but-shockingly-unintuitive tool. I am not saying that this is what JSOM and ID are, but hopefully you see my point. So, grump back at ya. :-) cheers - ray ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Gentle grump
John - Wow. That was actually an amazing help. I am not sure how adding a plugin can be made intuitive for someone doing it the first time without this level of detail. I also think part of my problem is going from slippy maps, like what we have been using on the web for years, and the iPhone and so on, to JOSM. The navigation is ... different. I guess control-arrow makes sense for moving in the map, but I seem to keep looking for a grab tool of some kind. My hands know slippy maps. And your hit-update-but-dont workflow is brilliant, but the fact that it has to be done that way, or is easier done that way Well, it suggests something is off, but I do not know what. We will see. I think that, at this point, I can go to the JOSM resources and get where I need to go. It is certainly daunting at first but, OMG, for buildings, JOSM is fantastic. Well, onward and upward. - ray On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 18:30:59 -0500 john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: Right the basic idiot guide. First write down your OSM userid and password. For task 917 we only care about highways, settlements and buildings. Buildings if only because if there is one in isolation sometimes we like to map it rather than call it a landuse=residential. Start JOSM up, in the edit menu you'll find preferences down the bottom. We need to allow HOT to remotely control JOSM to feed it the bit to map. So look for the remote control, usually second button up on the left. Click enable remote control, ignore the rest. Now we need to add a plugin, fourth tile down is the plugin button. Download the list. Look for buildings_tool they're in alphabetical order, click it and ignore the rest. go to http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/917 Read the instructions. Click on a tile, click on start mapping, select edit with JOSM. Switch back to JOSM and you'll find its pulled in the existing OSM map for the tile. We want to look at the imagery so look across the top, File, Edit etc until you reach Imagery, for this one we will be using Bing so select Bing. Now we need to trace over the image. We'll use two buttons directly under file, the top one is select, the second one is draw nodes. Hover the mouse over them to display the tags. Zoom in to the image, generally speaking I zoom so that roughly 90 meters shows on the scale. Personally I start at the top right corner and use Crtldown arrow to scan the image. The following is not the official way to do things but its fast. Draw round each settlement but don't tag it. If you're lucky enough to find a road joining settlements draw the highway in again don't tag it. As you go draw round each settlement you see on the road. Stick to one type of highway omit the others for the moment. The upload button is the fourth button from the left near Tools. When you upload JOSM will give you a warning, cancel the upload. On the right hand side normally at the bottom you'll see a Validation Results box, click on the + by the warning. You'll see untagged ways. Highlight the untagged ways and select them. In tags Add landuse=residential to them all. Click the upload button once more, again you'll get a warning this time saying landuse residential has unclosed ways, select these as a group. In tags Edit and change the tag to highway=unclassified. Now upload. You may need your OSM userid and password at this point. You'll notice that JOSM already has the source of the image filled in and the HOT tile etc. Now go back and look for highway=tracks. Again don't tag until JOSM warns you on uploading then tag them all at once. For rectangle buildings press b for the building plug-in, now find the longest side and mouse click one corner, follow the edge to the next corner then click again, now drag the mouse to the other side. Click once more and the building is done and correctly tagged for HOT. There is a lot more to JOSM but this guide's objective is to get you going productively quickly. Cheerio John On 6 March 2015 at 15:07, Ray Kiddy r...@ganymede.org wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 15:12:21 -0500 john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: Just for the heck of it I ran JOSM validation on a tile I was mapping before touching it. It turned up duplicate buildings, crossed buildings, lots of highways separated by a few inches etc. Do we need an idiot guide? A sort of this is how to provide the maximum benefit for the least effort. Speaking as an idiot, I would say that the answer to this is yes. Perhaps you think I jest Mine would probably run along the lines of for Africa the convention is only the following values of highways are used for minor highways: path, track, unclassified, use highway=road if you are uncertain. Someone will probably have tagged the secondary and primary highways. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dsecondary
Re: [HOT] Malawi Flood TM job #847
On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 19:08:17 +0100 Severin Menard severin.men...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, snip * WARNING:* sometimes the buildings have been created as a node. Please do not delete them as they generally encompass a lot of attributes from the field survey done in August-September 2014. Sincerely, Severin It is fairly easy, in iD, to create a shape for a building and merge data from a node at the same location and delete the node. Is there a reason you actually want the node? Or are you just worried about the data being lost by mappers not doing the right thing? - ray ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
[HOT] why is the imagery I see going gray?
Hello - I am trying to do some edits on task # 765. Here I am at the bottom-left of my grid. http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=id#map=17/12.34481/-9.10106 This all looks cleat to me, but it is a bit small. But when I double-click in one more time, to: http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=id#map=18/12.34492/-9.10084 then I can briefly see the imagery but then, within a second, it fades to a uniform gray. What is up? The imagery at the higher-resolution obviously exists, because I catch just a glimpse of it, But that is really not enough time to identify anything. I am going to unlock and try again later. Any suggestions? thanx - ray BTW, I am using the iD editor with Firefox 33.0 on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS. ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Validating - Take a Task at Random
On Wed, 12 Nov 2014 09:28:11 -0600 Andrew Buck andrew.r.b...@gmail.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Yeah, this definitely is an issue, 'take a random task' should not offer validation squares. I did not see this issue in the TM's issue list. Just FYI. https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/446 cheers - ray ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] unknown structures are buildings?
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 20:59:57 + Michel Gilbert michc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ian, I found this page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot/West_African_HOT_Mapping_Tips that is created by BGirardot that provides good tips helping to understand the context for mapping West Africa in terms of features. As an uninitiated HOT mappers I would need more of these. Michel It seems an obvious suggestion that a link to the page above could appear on the page which some of the Instructions are linking to: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2014_West_Africa_Ebola_Response Obviously BGirardot's brain is not automatically hooked to all the wiki pages it should be hooked up with, more's the pity. :-) And this whole discussion could tie into the thread on the list: Video that Best Represents Our Work? This thread seems to end up discussing ways to use video to help teach mappers how to do better mapping. This may be a good time for a straw-man catalog/training tool to appear on the wiki. - ray On Tue Nov 04 2014 at 1:27:33 PM thatwo...@hushmail.com wrote: I agree wholeheartedly with Ray. It would be very helpful to have a page of examples of W. Africa satellite imagery showing, 1) buildings that are often overlooked by mappers, especially the less experienced ones, because they may not look like buildings to the uninitiated, and; 2) things that are often mistaken for buildings, but aren't. This catalog could be even more useful if further broken down by areas/countries whose structures differ somewhat, as well as by typical rural vs urban structures. If s/he has neither visited these countries nor studied their cultures, a mapper's working at a distinct disadvantage without such examples. I've spent some time looking at photos online of traditional buildings in this part of the world to try to improve my mapping, but these shots are taken from ground level, of course. And as Ray points out, it's a completely different experience when viewing them from a satellite's POV. -Ian On 11/4/2014 at 3:03 AM, Ray Kiddy r...@ganymede.org wrote: On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 09:51:54 +0100 Claire Halleux claire.hall...@hotosm.org wrote: Hi Ray, For cassava, you could add something on the following page I guess: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:crop%3Dcassava If you intend to use a screenshot of imagery, make sure you keep the copyright visible. We got permissions to do so from MapBox, HIU and Bing, for training purposes. Cheers Claire I am not explaining myself well. The page you are pointing to has a picture of casava taken from the ground. This does not help me identify anything if I am looking at casava in a photo taken from a satellite. How does one recognize a mound of casava in Liberia? Or a yurt in Mongolia? Or a well in Pakinstan? From satellite imagery? Does a well in Pakistan look like well in Montana? Probably not. So, when one has no experience with an area of the world, how can one identify its structures? One way is to look at a bunch of satellite imagery and keep asking questions, over and over. Or, perhaps pictures of differently shaped structures can be pulled out which identifies different structures and describes where they appear. Like a catalog. So, is there some catalog of satellite imagery that will show what things look like in various places, for training purposes? Or would there be suggestions on how to create one and where it could be? thanx - ray On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 2:58 AM, Ray Kiddy r...@ganymede.org wrote: On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 09:16:50 +0800 maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: To me, it looks like building=construction (the dividing walls are visible). Nearly the same as what I've seen on the ground in Malawi, Africa. If you're unsure, just tag it as building=yes. Is there a place on a wiki to place pictures that can be examined to learn to recognize some of the local structures? A catalog that shows how different things appear in different places? I have had similar questions. I had a pic and the round honeycomb looking things were identified as casava plants growing in bunches in Liberia. Is there a logical place on one of the wikis, a sort of image catalog, where I could add this pic and mark it with Casava plant, Liberia, resolution of image = x? I was editing in #479 Tharparkar Drought, Sindh, Pakistan, and some of this stuff could have been on the moon. I just have no context to figure out the shapes of houses, what wells look like (just like houses?) and so on. A catalog of the structure types one might find in, for example, the deserts of Pakistan might be helpful. We could me mapping in Mongolia and I am also not going to know what a yurt looks like from
Re: [HOT] Think before you hit reply
On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 23:21:48 + Dave Corley davecor...@gmail.com wrote: Folks, snip You know, of course, that if one is reading the e-mails as e-mails, then the context absolutely helps, yes? But if people are reading this list in digest form, then yes, not including previous verbiage is best. When I am in my mail application, I can certain click back to the previous e-mails in the thread to see what was said. Sorry for the inconvenience. cheers - ray ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
[HOT] bother adding source=Whatever to each object?
Hello - This is probably a somewhat basic question about editing for HOT tasks. As I have been editing in various HOT tasks, I have been adding something like source=Bing (where that is the imagery) onto every road, every building, every ... everything that I create. Need I bother with this? I have seen in (perhaps just some tasks') instructions that I could also just put this on the changeset comment. So I can just add it to the changeset once instead of adding it to the object 100 times? If it could be put on the changeset comment and not on every object, that would be convenient. It would also explain why, when I look at all of the objects others have created, I hardly ever see a source value. So, am I doing too much work by re-entering the source value every time? What is the level of diligence expected here? thanx - ray ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] bother adding source=Whatever to each object?
On Mon, 3 Nov 2014 19:51:52 +0100 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com wrote: It's more logical to put it on the changeset. Like when you draw a building, and add source=bing. But then someone who lives there gives it a name, and forgets to alter the source, the object has data that can't be derived from the source. So it's in fact your edit operation that has a source, not the object itself. I had wondered about this when I saw multiple source values on an object. I mean, which other attributes came from which source? Technically the source should map to the subset of the attributes that were observed from that source, but in real life, I would have no idea how that could be presented in a way anyone would understand. As such, source=Bing is by many mappers preferred on the changeset (also because it keeps the database a bit smaller). When you edit with JOSM, you can add the source manually as a tag to the changeset (which is handy if your source is a survey or offline source). In iD, it automatically logs the imagery used in the changeset, but you don't get an option to give other sources (which is why many people still put a source on the objects). So I understand this to mean that if you are putting in an object from the imagery in front of you, you do not need to do anything else. I am not seeing that iD is attaching this anywhere but I may not be looking in the right place. But as long as the database sees it, I do not need to. Take away point, I do not need to set the source 100 times and I am good with that. cheers - ray Regards, Sander 2014-11-03 19:41 GMT+01:00 Ray Kiddy r...@ganymede.org: Hello - This is probably a somewhat basic question about editing for HOT tasks. As I have been editing in various HOT tasks, I have been adding something like source=Bing (where that is the imagery) onto every road, every building, every ... everything that I create. Need I bother with this? I have seen in (perhaps just some tasks') instructions that I could also just put this on the changeset comment. So I can just add it to the changeset once instead of adding it to the object 100 times? If it could be put on the changeset comment and not on every object, that would be convenient. It would also explain why, when I look at all of the objects others have created, I hardly ever see a source value. So, am I doing too much work by re-entering the source value every time? What is the level of diligence expected here? thanx - ray ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] seeking your help on OSM data extraction tutorial
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 11:10:41 -0700 Mikel Maron mikel.ma...@gmail.com wrote: HOTties I'm seeking someone(s) to collaborate in putting together and delivering a short tutorial on extraction and distribution of OSM data. I suspect that there may need to be more than one tutorial, with each oriented to a different kind of user. For example, I have a lot of experience with traditional relational databases. I also work with a framework that uses key-value coding (ala Eiffel), so I am ok with it. And I have worked with geo data, but mostly in relational databases. But when I am looking at OSM data, I have a hard time finding the terms to use to ask the question I want the answer to. And I suspect my challenges are different that those of someone brought up with NoSQL technologies and such. Does this make sense? I often seem to have questions like: I am surprised to see this key being used on this feature. Where else is this key used? How comprehensively it is applied? I know there are tags in the US relating to TIGER data. If I know the TIGER id of an area, how can I find it on OSM? How can I find the major (by length? by type?) lines in an area, and not try to get the 450,000 other lines within this rectangle? Is there any help for someone coming to OSM from a YesSQL background? thanx - ray ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
[HOT] a few editing questions
Hello - I have been doing some work just lately. I started out mostly in #665 (shout-out to @schuyler at @MaptimeOAK). I am doing more in #611 (Gaza Strip) now. Two things. Is it cool to check buildings in the Gaza task and add the source tag? I can make arguments both ways. On the one hand, where else would the imagery have come from? AFAIK, there is no other source on the project. On the other hand, who knows what someone was looking at. Adding a source attribution knowing nothing of the source might not be kosher. But I can see, also, that the building is there in this imagery, so I am not just closing my eyes and adding data. So, yes or no? Also, I found what appeared to be software edits. Buildings were marked with a bunch of all-caps attributes that had to do with perimeter and area and a bunch of other things but almost all values were 0 or 0.0. I took some out and then decided that might not be good. On the other hand, software edits can be a problem, yes? Should these be corrected in validation only? Let me know. Trying to help but not mess up others work. If there is an easy way to find out the fate of my edits, whether they were validated or un-done, give a holler. I know I can find a lot of info on my edits but there may not be a single-page source like this, or there could be and it might take a while to find. So, open to suggestions. thanx - ray ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] a few editing questions
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 19:45:54 + Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ray, Thanks for all your efforts! To answer your questions: I don't think it's a good idea to go through and add the source tag to objects, based on your own working out what the source probably was. Very often the source IS already given, but it's in the changeset comment=* or source=* tag, not on the object itself. Even if that isn't the case, I don't think it's a good idea to guess. Makes sense. The database-geek in me balks at this. And my inner-database-geek is very loud. Perhaps that means I need to learn more about the validation stuff that goes on. We will see. About the software edits, well, it's hard to say for certain, and if you can link to specific examples it'd help. There are often some bits of imported data which look kinda weird, and I've been told off in the past for deleting tags just cos they looked weird ;) - there may be a specific deliberate reason they're there, or they may be the result of a bad import, but in most cases the weird tags are doing no harm, and we probably shouldn't delete them in case someone has a purpose for them. If they're bugging you then you could look at the object history, work out who imported them, and contact them. Yep. I got out of the edits and wrote this and could not find the features I had seen. Will examine more closely when I see them again. thanx - ray Best Dan ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Video that Best Represents Our Work?
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:12:44 -0400 Blake Girardot bgirar...@gmail.com wrote: I intend to re-do this how-to I made in answer to a question on this list a little while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=042TbopS7HM It was done without much preparation and to answer some specific questions so it needs some adjustments (and I make a mistake in mapping if you look closely), but I think it is close to what you are talking about for a quick description of mapping buildings. It also uses iD as that is what the person who asked the question used and it is what most new mappers will be using. There should be one like it for JOSM as well which I will do. I will also do a second one about roads in each editor. Regards, Blake This video is really great. I went to a presentation in Oakland CA last week where I was introduced to HOT and my first thought when doing something at home was ... there has to be a video that explains some of this ... and here it is. Any hints on how to fix this thing with iD? One clicks on Line or Shape and there is a __huge__ tooltip which completely gets in the way of using the pointer. It goes away eventually but, wow. Bothersome to say the least. Well, I grabbed a copy of the source for iD on github. We will see. Or, perhaps I have too much experience with other mapping tools and am already hitting the OMG I have to learn JOSM point in my mapping career. I imagine most people hit that wall and most get past it. I am going to try to use iD for a while and see if I can find more videos like Blake's. And as I figure things out, I might record some myself. Onwards and upwards and all that. cheers - ray On 10/21/2014 7:58 AM, john whelan wrote: So the fantasy would be a simple screen cast video using something like HOT task 690 http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/690 since it uses the high resolution satellite imagery, Kevin Bullock's presentation http://vimeo.com/91880883 covers why this type is best to work from, the interesting bit starts 5 mins in to the presentation, locally there have been some clean up issues with lower resolution satellite imagery and mentioning the use of the JOSM building plug in as mentioned by Tom Taylor https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JkiL8wlvJqdVMgGxKXPzF22YzQ-S08Q31zZQna9CTMk/edit To come back to the original topic I think you need an overview, starting perhaps with a couple of interviews from two or three AID agencies about why the OSM maps are important to them and how they are used. Then flip to the sources of data which are made free to use such as DigitalGlobe, UN place names, and finally a few mappers putting it altogether. Given that the maps are useful perhaps Unicef or someone might have some resources for this? Or the BBC? Cheerio John On 21 October 2014 01:42, Kate Chapman kate.chap...@hotosm.org mailto:kate.chap...@hotosm.org wrote: Hi John, There are a few videos out there, but I don't know of too many recent ones. You are right a simple screencast showing how to map a building for example would be really helpful. I made some videos in 2010 about mapping from imagery in Haiti and people really enjoyed them. Having updated ones would be great. Best, -Kate On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 5:59 PM, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: Talking of videos are there any training videos about what HOT expects? The reason I ask is that although we break down to give tasks can we break it down even more. ie teach someone to do a simple task of map a building using high resolution satellite imagery, sounds dumb but map one in JOSM, q it to square it, tag it building=yes, select, Crtlc move the mouse to another crtlv, adjust the four corners, q again etc. The concept is we can teach people to map buildings on You-tube, its simple and has value. Another would teach people how to recognise a road and to tag it or highway=path. We may need expertise to map things like water bodies, rivers, streams and forests but buildings and footpaths in Africa are probably 80% of what needs to be mapped and you don't need a degree in GIS to do this. Let's delegate what we can. Cheerio John On 20 October 2014 15:55, Kate Chapman kate.chap...@hotosm.org mailto:kate.chap...@hotosm.org wrote: Hi All, Is there a video you think best represents our work? Most videos seem to focus on one project or are a talk at a conference. Do we have anything that is less specific? Thanks, -Kate -- Kate Chapman Executive Director email: kate.chap...@hotosm.org mailto:kate.chap...@hotosm.org U.S. mobile: +1 703 673 8834 Indonesian mobile: +62 82123068370 *
