[lace] Copenhagen holes LONG!!

[Bobbi Donnelly]

No idea why this came through so oddly sprinkled with weird symbols but
here it is one more time. If it is still weird I'm sorry.

bobbi

Good morning all. I feel the need to jump in now and hope to help.
The Copenhagen hole that Devon is speaking about is a technique only
(as far as I know?) used in Tonder lace. It is worked on a diamond shaped
pricking and is worked from the top down one side and then down the second
side. I have seen holes worked in half stitch (CT), honeycomb stitch (CTT),
and
linen or cloth stitch (CTC). Each give a totally different effect. My 
personal

preference is the honeycomb stitch (CTT). I think that the webbing is more
attractive in CTT.
They can be pinned with the webbing from the CTT or which ever you choose
on the inside (most often) or the webbing on the outside (not so much).
There are samples of this last one in my latest book. (Tallies and Pin
Chains)
For those of you with a copy of the book, on page 76 the holes are worked in
Linen
or cloth stitch (CTC) and pinned on the inside of the hole.
In class we use the honeycomb stitch and pin on the outside. (other than 
this

piece!)
The process of doing the hole is the same regardless of how many pins are
on each quarter of the hole. I have seen Copenhagen holes with 4 pins on 
each

quarter from top pin to widest point pin up to 7 pins in the same area. The
process is the same. The write up in the last book (mentioned above) I think 
is

logical.
Other differences between Bucks Point and Tonder are the way the gimp is
moved in the piece and the way the valleys are worked. Having said that, I 
also

think that we want to have rules for all laces. This is always worked this
way and that is always worked that way. I have found through years of 
working
with Tonder lace that this is not the case. Sadly, because we are only 
dealing

with samples or bits of the laces we have no way of knowing _for sure_ one
way or the other what the thoughts of the designer or the lace maker were.
These two people were not normally the same person. So when I do 
reconstructions,

IF I have a sample with more than one repeat of the lace the chances are
good that all of the repeats are different.
Some times drastically, some times very subtlety. But the question is 
always:

What is the inspiration of the designer? Or is it the lacemaker that chooses
the right pattern? Is the lacemaker given the pricking and then told to make 
it
and she/he gets to choose if that section of diamond shaped hole is a 
spider,

a diamond, in half stitch or whole? a Copenhagen hole? So many choices
And who are we to say that a diamond shape with 5 holes from top pin to 
widest

point pin is always a spider? Or a half stitch diamond? or a linen/cloth
stitch diamond?
Or for that matter a Copenhagen hole?
On the design end... once you do a sample of a piece, even torchon lace, if
you look at the
finished piece some times you will choose to make something different in an
area because to your eye it will look better.
My personal opinion of the piece that Devon posted the other day is that
although the head side motif is traditional Tønder that the piece on a
whole is a mix of different laces.
That or it is just very disjointed as a design. We have confirmed that the
head side is in fact
a traditional Tonder design. Pre 1900.
Ok I've blithered on for long enough. Hope this was helpful.
bobbi

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[lace] Point Ground Study Book

[Bev Walker]

Hello Devon and everyone

The OIDFA publication, The Point Ground Study Book, is an excellent
resource, compares by chart details of about 25 unique point Ground styles
including pre- and post-1900 Tønder. It might not answer all your questions
but it's a start.
Re the term Copenhagen hole, I came across that when I was learning
Torchon, maybe in the Torchon Workbook. I understood it to be a Danish
technique therefore, with a name invented by an English-speaking person,
say?

Bev
working from home :-) on a wet April day in Shirley BC Canada



--
Sent from my iPod

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[lace] Re: Copenhagen holes LONG!!

[Bobbi Donnelly]

Good morning all. I feel the need to jump in now and hope to help.
The Copenhagen hole that Devon is speaking about is a technique only
(as far as I know?) used in Tønder lace. It is worked on a diamond shaped
pricking and is worked from the top down one side and then down the second
side. I have seen holes worked in half stitch (CT), honeycomb stitch (CTT),
and
linen or cloth stitch (CTC). Each give a totally different effect. My personal
preference is the honeycomb stitch (CTT). I think that the webbing is more
attractive in CTT.
They can be pinned with the webbing from the CTT or which ever you choose
on the inside (most often) or the webbing on the outside (not so much).
There are samples of this last one in my latest book. (Tallies and Pin
Chains)
For those of you with a copy of the book, on page 76 the holes are worked in
Linen
or cloth stitch (CTC) and pinned on the inside of the hole.
In class we use the honeycomb stitch and pin on the outside. (other than this
piece!)
The process of doing the hole is the same regardless of how many pins are
on each quarter of the hole. I have seen Copenhagen holes with 4 pins on each
quarter from top pin to widest point pin up to 7 pins in the same area. The
process
is the same. The write up in the last book (mentioned above) I think is
logical.
Other differences between Bucks Point and Tønder are the way the gimp is
moved
in the piece and the way the valleys are worked. Having said that, I also
think
that we want to have ‘rules’ for all laces. ‘This is always worked this
way and that is
always worked that way.’ I have found through years of working with Tønder
lace
that this is not the case. Sadly, because we are only dealing with samples or
bits
of the laces we have no way of knowing _for sure_ one way or the other what
the
thoughts of the designer or the lace maker were. These two people were not
normally
the same person. So when I do reconstructions, IF I have a sample with more
than
one repeat of the lace the chances are good that all of the repeats are
different.
Some times drastically, some times very subtlety. But the question is always:
What is the inspiration of the designer? Or is it the lacemaker that chooses
the
‘right’ pattern? Is the lacemaker given the pricking and then told to
‘make it’
and she/he gets to choose if that section of diamond shaped hole is a spider,
a diamond, in half stitch or whole? a Copenhagen hole? So many choices
And who are we to say that a diamond shape with 5 holes from top pin to widest
point pin is always a spider? Or a half stitch diamond? or a linen/cloth
stitch diamond?
Or for that matter a Copenhagen hole?
On the design end... once you do a sample of a piece, even torchon lace, if
you look at the
finished piece some times you will choose to make something different in an
area because
to your eye it will look better.
My personal opinion of the piece that Devon posted the other day is that
although the
head side motif is traditional Tønder that the piece on a whole is a mix of
different laces.
That or it is just very disjointed as a design. We have confirmed that the
head side is in fact
a traditional Tønder design. Pre 1900.
Ok I’ve blithered on for long enough. Hope this was helpful.
bobbi

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/png which had a name of 
wlEmoticon-winkingsmile[1].png]

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[lace] Copenhagen holes

[Devon Thein]

Thank you to Susan and Adele for their input.

I had a look at what is available on line from the Lacemaker’s Pattern
book. They are point ground designs as is the piece of Tonder lace. I think
the thing that distinguishes the Tonder lace that I posted is its spindly
design, especially stems hanging in mid-air.

I am posting another piece of Tonder lace which I would consider to me more
the norm. But, what is it that makes it recognizable as a Tonder lace? My
somewhat untutored concept is that it is big holes that scream Tonder.
Recalling my instruction by Gunvor Jorgensen she had me do something called
a Copenhagen hole. It was great fun and seemed to involve a lot of twists.
I have always had difficulty relating it to a diagram because it was more
of a muscle memory thing where you were working pairs in cross twist twist
one after another in the inside of the hole. Maybe I was even doing it
wrong. Looking at this example of Tonder there are big holes, but they are
not formed the way I thought they were supposed to be. In fact, there seem
to be linen stitches on the inside of the hole. Sometimes, I even see big
holes that are really lined with single honeycomb stitches. I realize that
in making a big hole, you really have to find something to do with a lot of
pairs that would otherwise be in the point ground, so there might be
different ways of handling that issue. But, can anyone tell me if I am
correct that the big holes are sort of an aesthetic preference for the
makers of Tonder lace that other makers of point ground did not use as
much? Is there a particular time frame associated with them? Do they have
any specific structural requirements?

Photos posted at
https://laceioli.ning.com/group/identification-history?xg_source=activity


Devon

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Re: [lace] Email problem?

[J-D Hammett]

Hi Brian,
I got your email ok. There has also a thread going on a tonder lace. This had
several references to IOLI.  So you have missed some. That happens to me now
and again.
Regards,
Joepie.
   Sorry, tried to trim, but I am not able to do it on my phone. J

Get Outlook for Android


From: owner-l...@arachne.com  on behalf of
brid...@bigpond.com 
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 12:21:48 AM
To: lace@arachne.com 
Subject: [lace] Email problem?

I have not had any posts from Arachne for a few days. I am beginning to
suspect it might be my email might be wrong.



Sorry about this.  I suppose this will act as a test for me.



Brian

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