Re: [LegacyUG] Software Testing
Mike, I was on the TMG list for several years, as well. Like you I have ultimately chosen Legacy over TMG although I liked TMG quite well, and think it is a fine program. The TMG list does have a ³higher tone² than the Legacy list. Having said that, the Legacy list is full of clever people, good eggs people like Ron and Wendy, who generously lend so much time responding to questions; it is just a few people that pull the level of conversation down a bit. Probably not their intention, but there it is. You will quickly learn to skim the posts of the most contentious or demanding with a sense of humor, or to delete them straight away. I think this last week was a bit unusual, in that one person had a problem that was truly driving her around the bend, hence a flurry of very frustrated emails. Welcome to the list. Stick with us. I think Legacy is making some great strides right now, in spite of the bugs, toward edging into TMG¹s former stranglehold on the ³serious genealogist² slice of the market. Janis Walker Gilmore On 9/12/08 5:32 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Ward, > > Thanks for a thoughtful and articulate post. I am a new user of Legacy, > having recently switched over from TMG v7 to Legacy 7, and have been hovering > along the side-lines of this list for the past couple of weeks or so. I have > never used Legacy 6. I have also been a database developer for many years, > and after trying out most of the competing products I settled on Legacy as the > best choice, bugs or not. > > The only other genealogy mailing list that I have been associated with is the > TMG list. And although I have come to prefer Legacy to TMG, I must say that > during the 2 years that I used it and participated in its mail list, I never > encountered the lack of respect for the feelings of other users that I have > seen here recently. > > I always found the TMG list to be extremely helpful. But, as a total newcomer > to the Legacy-world, I find myself hesitating to post here. I would hope that > the anger, frustration and bad feeling toward the developers and also toward > other posters that I have observed here lately is a transient thing, rather > than the norm. > > Mike >> -- Original message -- >> From: "Ward Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>> > While sympathetic to the users impacted by the report output bugs, I am >>> > distressed by all the hostility directed towards Millennia and even >>> towards >>> > fellow listers. Software development, including software testing, is not >>> an >>> > exact science. (It comes close only in certain life-critical military >>> > applications, where incredible resources are devoted to avoiding bugs.) >>> > >>> > I worked as a software tester and test manager for many years. It is >>> > impossible to create and execute test cases for every function with every >>> > combination of input conditions. So, you prioritize and do your best, and >>> > you work with the developers to ensure that they are also following best >>> > practices such as code reviews and unit testing. Since manual testing is >>> so >>> > expensive, many companies have developed suites of automated tests that >>> can >>> > be run, not only after major updates, but even after minor bug fixes. >>> Still, >>> > the automated test cases and test tools require an up-front investment. It >>> > can take a small company years to evolve a good suite of automated test >>> > cases and then to keep them up with all the changes and enhancements. >>> > >>> > Manual or automated, the first priority for a product like Legacy is >>> > probably to ensure that no data gets corrupted during data >>> > entry/merge/repair. Avoiding crashes would also be very high. Where I have >>> > worked, a higher priority was placed on ensuring that existing functions >>> are >>> > not broken than on ensuring that new features are perfect. It is possible >>> > that the test team had test cases for direct report output, and perhaps >>> for >>> > output of simple reports to file formats such as RTF . It would appear >>> that >>> > they had insufficient test cases for output of more complex reports to >>> RTF, >>> > or chose not to re-execute them. By 'complex', I mean with various >>> scenarios >>> > for sources, footnotes, database size, formatting options, etc., etc. >>> > >>> > The company management is responsible for funding an adequate test team >>> (or >>> > test 'effort', if it is being done by the developers), and for giving them >>> > enough time to complete testing after most development is frozen. The >>> senior >>> > management cannot micro-manage the testers, but it can audit test coverage >>> > analysis and bug open/close rates. There are constant financial and >>> > technical trade-offs. Mistakes will be made and now and then a fairly >>> > serious bug will 'escape' testing. Sometimes a bug is introduced at the >>> last >>> > minute by a fix to a different b
Re: [LegacyUG] Software Testing
Mike, I totally agree...and I'm sorry to say that is seems to be the norm here...with the same players usually. They can take a subject & turn it around to a witch-burning so fast you have a huge download of useless messages in an instant. And when someone speaks up against the practice they turn on them. They never seem grateful for the wonders they have, only gripe about bits of imperfection & ask for more. If it was my list, it would be -flame once, warning- flame twice, banned. I don't know how the Legacy staff stays so calm...Chocolate must be involved... They are good people with a good product & for a VERY reasonable price. Hey... maybe Legacy can start a second list for grownups... people with manners who know how to discuss problems & solutions without getting snide, rude & insulting??? LOL Sally Hi Ward, Thanks for a thoughtful and articulate post. I am a new user of Legacy, having recently switched over from TMG v7 to Legacy 7, and have been hovering along the side-lines of this list for the past couple of weeks or so. I have never used Legacy 6. I have also been a database developer for many years, and after trying out most of the competing products I settled on Legacy as the best choice, bugs or not. The only other genealogy mailing list that I have been associated with is the TMG list. And although I have come to prefer Legacy to TMG, I must say that during the 2 years that I used it and participated in its mail list, I never encountered the lack of respect for the feelings of other users that I have seen here recently. I always found the TMG list to be extremely helpful. But, as a total newcomer to the Legacy-world, I find myself hesitating to post here. I would hope that the anger, frustration and bad feeling toward the developers and also toward other posters that I have observed here lately is a transient thing, rather than the norm. Mike Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
Re: [LegacyUG] Software Testing
Hi Ward, Thanks for a thoughtful and articulate post. I am a new user of Legacy, having recently switched over from TMG v7 to Legacy 7, and have been hovering along the side-lines of this list for the past couple of weeks or so. I have never used Legacy 6. I have also been a database developer for many years, and after trying out most of the competing products I settled on Legacy as the best choice, bugs or not. The only other genealogy mailing list that I have been associated with is the TMG list. And although I have come to prefer Legacy to TMG, I must say that during the 2 years that I used it and participated in its mail list, I never encountered the lack of respect for the feelings of other users that I have seen here recently. I always found the TMG list to be extremely helpful. But, as a total newcomer to the Legacy-world, I find myself hesitating to post here. I would hope that the anger, frustration and bad feeling toward the developers and also toward other posters that I have observed here lately is a transient thing, rather than the norm. Mike -- Original message -- From: "Ward Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > While sympathetic to the users impacted by the report output bugs, I am > distressed by all the hostility directed towards Millennia and even towards > fellow listers. Software development, including software testing, is not an > exact science. (It comes close only in certain life-critical military > applications, where incredible resources are devoted to avoiding bugs.) > > I worked as a software tester and test manager for many years. It is > impossible to create and execute test cases for every function with every > combination of input conditions. So, you prioritize and do your best, and > you work with the developers to ensure that they are also following best > practices such as code reviews and unit testing. Since manual testing is so > expensive, many companies have developed suites of automated tests that can > be run, not only after major updates, but even after minor bug fixes. Still, > the automated test cases and test tools require an up-front investment. It > can take a small company years to evolve a good suite of automated test > cases and then to keep them up with all the changes and enhancements. > > Manual or automated, the first priority for a product like Legacy is > probably to ensure that no data gets corrupted during data > entry/merge/repair. Avoiding crashes would also be very high. Where I have > worked, a higher priority was placed on ensuring that existing functions are > not broken than on ensuring that new features are perfect. It is possible > that the test team had test cases for direct report output, and perhaps for > output of simple reports to file formats such as RTF. It would appear that > they had insufficient test cases for output of more complex reports to RTF, > or chose not to re-execute them. By 'complex', I mean with various scenarios > for sources, footnotes, database size, formatting options, etc., etc. > > The company management is responsible for funding an adequate test team (or > test 'effort', if it is being done by the developers), and for giving them > enough time to complete testing after most development is frozen. The senior > management cannot micro-manage the testers, but it can audit test coverage > analysis and bug open/close rates. There are constant financial and > technical trade-offs. Mistakes will be made and now and then a fairly > serious bug will 'escape' testing. Sometimes a bug is introduced at the last > minute by a fix to a different bug. Hopefully Millennia has learned a lot > from the V7 experience, as the business grows and as the product grows in > complexity. > > We have seen a lot of good things from this company, including great > responsiveness to customer feedback over the years. Let's concentrate on > objective, detailed, and unemotional reporting of bugs and give Millennia a > chance to recover and to regain our trust. > > Ward > > > > > > Legacy User Group guidelines: > http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp > Archived messages: > http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ > Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp > To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp > > >
Re: [LegacyUG] Software Testing
Ward, Well said - I concur completely. From over 40 years as a medical instrument developer I find your words accurate and on-target. Some of the criticism of Millenia has been unfair and misdirected. The accusers only need to be taken through the verification and validation testing cycle once to realize how incredibly complex software testing can be. As a software product matures, more features are invariably added. More features equate to many more variables. Similarly in this case, Legacy has been written the program with an extreme amount of flexibility which we all enjoy. Flexibility *multiplies* the number of variables once again. Flexible and complex outputs of flexible and complex software is a nightmare to fully test. I'd suggest that we all cool our jets and give this highly responsive company a chance to address our complaints and make appropriate corrections. I dare say they will never be able to satisfy every complaint or wish list they receive but I bet they'll try! I own three and tried a fourth genealogy package and this is the best one for me. Thanks, Millenia! Hugh W. Busey ___ On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Ward Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > While sympathetic to the users impacted by the report output bugs, I am > distressed by all the hostility directed towards Millennia and even towards > fellow listers. Software development, including software testing, is not an > exact science. (It comes close only in certain life-critical military > applications, where incredible resources are devoted to avoiding bugs.) > > I worked as a software tester and test manager for many years. It is > impossible to create and execute test cases for every function with every > combination of input conditions. So, you prioritize and do your best, and > you work with the developers to ensure that they are also following best > practices such as code reviews and unit testing. Since manual testing is so > expensive, many companies have developed suites of automated tests that can > be run, not only after major updates, but even after minor bug fixes. > Still, > the automated test cases and test tools require an up-front investment. It > can take a small company years to evolve a good suite of automated test > cases and then to keep them up with all the changes and enhancements. > > Manual or automated, the first priority for a product like Legacy is > probably to ensure that no data gets corrupted during data > entry/merge/repair. Avoiding crashes would also be very high. Where I have > worked, a higher priority was placed on ensuring that existing functions > are > not broken than on ensuring that new features are perfect. It is possible > that the test team had test cases for direct report output, and perhaps for > output of simple reports to file formats such as RTF. It would appear that > they had insufficient test cases for output of more complex reports to RTF, > or chose not to re-execute them. By 'complex', I mean with various > scenarios > for sources, footnotes, database size, formatting options, etc., etc. > > The company management is responsible for funding an adequate test team (or > test 'effort', if it is being done by the developers), and for giving them > enough time to complete testing after most development is frozen. The > senior > management cannot micro-manage the testers, but it can audit test coverage > analysis and bug open/close rates. There are constant financial and > technical trade-offs. Mistakes will be made and now and then a fairly > serious bug will 'escape' testing. Sometimes a bug is introduced at the > last > minute by a fix to a different bug. Hopefully Millennia has learned a lot > from the V7 experience, as the business grows and as the product grows in > complexity. > > We have seen a lot of good things from this company, including great > responsiveness to customer feedback over the years. Let's concentrate on > objective, detailed, and unemotional reporting of bugs and give Millennia a > chance to recover and to regain our trust. > > Ward > > > > > Legacy User Group guidelines: > http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp > Archived messages: > http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ > Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp > To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp > > > > Legacy User Group guidelines: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp Archived messages: http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyfamilytree.com/ Online technical support: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Help.asp To unsubscribe: http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/LegacyLists.asp
