Re: leovue meets leo4sqlite

[tscv11]

I've had my own difficulties but the site is back up. I will be making the 
suggested updates, thanks.

tscv11

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 11:55 AM, Terry Brown  wrote:

>
​​
I just want to point out that the
​ ​
problem identified here is @settings / myLeoSettings.leo / using Leo as a
settings manager, and not the theme generation machinery per se.

I have just spent all afternoon wrestling with themes.  I agree with you
that the substitution mechanism is ok.
​T
here is a gotcha lurking. Commenting out a setting that uses an @value:

  /* setting = @value */

​will
fail mysteriously
 if one forgets and puts a comment in the definition of value.​


​
​
> Just hoping we can add switchable themes without losing anything like
​ ​
substitution of settings into stylesheets, which I don't think is part
​ ​
of the proximal problem here.

Don't worry.  The goal is to create pre-built themes that can be loaded
from a menu, that is, from a command.

We can do that without necessarily changing
​*​*
*anything *about the stylesheet machinery or even the trees used to create
the stylesheets.

> Also that I don't think @settings / myLeoSettings.leo / using Leo as
​ ​
a settings manager is a bad thing, it's just awkward for newbies seeing
​ ​
they want to do it before they've had any chance to get the Leo way :)

Yeah, but I
​ grow ​
weary
​figuring ​
out how things dereference. In some cases I'm just hard-coding constants.
​  To be sure, this is a symptom of bad design of the settings, but it's
easy to go down that road.​
​ And the brain-dead solarized names don't help any either.​


In short, the fancy machinery will stay in place, but I'm not sure I will
use it.

​Right now I am stumped by something that is harmless in a white theme but
madly irritating in a dark theme.  Somehow there is (if I see clearly) a
2-pixel white/light border/margin/SOMETHING at the bottom of each Log pane
widget.  I have tried everything that I can think of to color that area
red, but no joy.  It just stays white, which is the worst possible color in
a dark theme. It would be great if someone could solve the mystery.  You
would think a default style on QWidget would do the trick, but not yet.

I'm starting to wonder whether there is a widget that isn't a subclass of
QWidget...

And I wouldn't bet my life that the stylesheet machinery correctly handles
overrides correctly.  I'm doing nothing fancy, afaik, but things aren't
always overriding as I expect.

Which all goes to show that we need decent, pre-built themes :-)

Edward

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Re: I love Leo, but... Scrivener and Org-Mode

[Largo84]

Wow, reading Israel's post made me me think I wrote it (except the org-mode 
part). Probably 80+% of my work in Leo is writing content w/ LaTEX output. 
Most of the rest is variations of markdown and RST. I tried moving my work 
to Scrivener and really like it a lot. However, I like Leo better (plus 
it's free and open source) and once I figured out how to link to external 
resources, I never went back to Scrivener. I don't like using LaTEX content 
auto-generated from something else. I end up spending too much time 
cleaning it up. For what it's worth, my work flow with LaTEX content is:

   1. I mostly write content directly in LaTEX syntax (it's cleaner and 
   easier to edit directly). I created many Leo abbreviations to speed up the 
   process (lists, sections, etc.)
   2. I wrote several outline-data-tree abbreviations to create 'wrapper' 
   shells for different kinds of documents (preambles, etc). Then I simply 
   input the LaTEX content files (\input{content.tex}}.
   3. Since I'm mostly on Windows, I use the excellent TeXnic Center 
    compiler to create the PDF output. (I 
   never use it to edit, only to compile.)
   4. Rarely, if I need to export to something else (xxx.docx or xxx.rtf or 
   xxx.html), I write in multi-markdown and use Pandoc to output.

Excellent post and I'd love to share ideas with other Leo/LaTEX users on 
work flow. Perhaps I can steal a few better ideas or trade for some of my 
own.

Rob...

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Re: leovue meets leo4sqlite

[Joe Orr]

Just realized there is a bug in the bookmarks for subtrees. So the 5-26 
link goes just to node 5 and the 4-23 links to node 4.

5-26 is supposed to go the = leo4sqlite script = / << docstring >>

You'll see that the version in the link below has the correct formatting.

4-23 points to the Sqlite3 node, under leo4sqlite local, which I edited to 
have the @language python directive + ''' in order to get LeoVue to 
recognize that it is a docstring.

Joe

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 2:48:40 PM UTC-5, Joe Orr wrote:
>
> I fixed the handling of docstrings (at least the multiline ones)
>
> I put a demo on the leo-examples repo:
>
> See https://kaleguy.github.io/leo-examples/leo4sqlite/#/t/5-26/
>
> The latter page shows that the docstring is being properly formatted for 
> the web.
>
> To get this to work with your version, just update the CDN to 
> https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/npm/leo-vue@1.6.5
>
> Also, on this page:
> https://kaleguy.github.io/leo-examples/leo4sqlite/#/t/4-23/
> you need to add @language python + ''' on beginning and end of the page. 
>
> The demo file is also an example of making a general leo file and then 
> adding the coding leo file as a node:
>  https://kaleguy.github.io/leo-examples/leo4sqlite
>
> You can see that the first page is the repo README.
>
> -Joe
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 4:26:43 PM UTC-5, tscv11 wrote:
>>
>> The script 'leo4sqlite' is now online using leovue - the syntax 
>> highlighting works well.
>> I'm looking forward to trying some of leovue's more advanced capabilities.
>>
>> My leovue/leo4sqlite demo lives here: 
>> https://tscv11.github.io/leo4sqlite/#/t/23/
>>
>> tscv11
>>
>

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Re: leovue meets leo4sqlite

[tscv11]

It's clear that I need to keep better track of this google group. I must 
have turned off email notifications because I had no idea anyone was 
communicating with me. My apologies - I'll fix that. If I have an active 
Leo project I think I should keep tabs on what's happening here, so I will 
make the effort.

Looks like Leovue is progressing nicely, I will update my project today if 
possible.

Thanks, Joe!

tscv11

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Re: Mermaid flowcharts from Leo subtree in Leo Vue

[Joe Orr]

Offray,

Wanted to respond this before but didn't have time.

About the name, Leo Web makes sense in that the LeoVue project shows the 
power of the web dev ecosystem. However, for a couple of reasons I think 
LeoVue is still the better name:

1. LeoVue isn't Leo, it is a content viewer, not a content creator. It has 
features that Leo doesn't and shouldn't have, and adding editing and other 
Leo features to LeoVue would make those features harder to use. I think it 
makes sense for it to stay a separate project, although some of the code 
could be useful in building a frontend for Leo.
2. Vue gets equal billing in LeoVue bc Vue isn't simply the tool that was 
used to build LeoVue. LeoVue allows you to put Vue components into the 
content pane, and these components have access to the entire leo tree. For 
example, charts can read csv data stored in a different node. Summary node 
components can represent the data in a subtree (e.g. the mermaid summary 
node).

Joe

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 5:59:10 PM UTC-5, Offray Vladimir Luna 
Cárdenas wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> This is really cool. Leo Vue is so cool that I think it should be renamed 
> Leo Web, because it's exploring what can be done when the ideas behind Leo 
> start a deep talk with the web technologies, including improved 
> interactivity and rendering, a search that many of us have been  looking 
> for so long. I have even thought in a non distant future where the Leo 
> website, is "just" a Leo outline, showed as a Leo Vue instance.
>
> Maybe the best place to talk about the search improved interactivity 
> (liveness) and outlining, particularly in Leo, is the thread titles "An 
> avalanche of new thoughts". As soon as I have more time I will do it. But 
> your explorations are pretty worthy and inspiring.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Offray
>
> On 01/02/18 14:50, Joe Orr wrote:
>
> Added a new feature which might be worth a look. 
>
> Mermaid is a markup language for creating and viewing diagrams such as 
> flowcharts and Gannt charts. Leo Vue already support Mermaid, but I added a 
> new directive that will create an interactive flowchart from the subtree of 
> a node. Because of Leo's clone nodes, these flowcharts can be more complex 
> than simple trees. 
>
> 1.5 min overview video 
>
> Also added couple more things: Kanban summary nodes, inherit language 
> directives.
>
> Joe Orr
>
>
>
>
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Re: leovue meets leo4sqlite

[Joe Orr]

I fixed the handling of docstrings (at least the multiline ones)

I put a demo on the leo-examples repo:

See https://kaleguy.github.io/leo-examples/leo4sqlite/#/t/5-26/

The latter page shows that the docstring is being properly formatted for 
the web.

To get this to work with your version, just update the CDN to 
https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/npm/leo-vue@1.6.5

Also, on this page:
https://kaleguy.github.io/leo-examples/leo4sqlite/#/t/4-23/
you need to add @language python + ''' on beginning and end of the page. 

The demo file is also an example of making a general leo file and then 
adding the coding leo file as a node:
 https://kaleguy.github.io/leo-examples/leo4sqlite

You can see that the first page is the repo README.

-Joe




On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 4:26:43 PM UTC-5, tscv11 wrote:
>
> The script 'leo4sqlite' is now online using leovue - the syntax 
> highlighting works well.
> I'm looking forward to trying some of leovue's more advanced capabilities.
>
> My leovue/leo4sqlite demo lives here: 
> https://tscv11.github.io/leo4sqlite/#/t/23/
>
> tscv11
>

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Terry Brown]

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 11:40:28 -0600
"Edward K. Ream"  wrote:

> Leo *must* have a library of pre-built themes that users can choose
> without knowing *anything* about @settings trees and
> myLeoSettings.leo.

This sounds like a good idea - I just want to point out that the
problem identified here is @settings / myLeoSettings.leo / using Leo as
a settings manager, and not the theme generation machinery per se.

Just hoping we can add switchable themes without losing anything like
substitution of settings into stylesheets, which I don't think is part
of the proximal problem here.

Also that I don't think @settings / myLeoSettings.leo / using Leo as
a settings manager is a bad thing, it's just awkward for newbies seeing
they want to do it before they've had any chance to get the Leo way :)

Kind of like having a French English dictionary with the only index in
French, when all you speak is English.

Cheers -Terry

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 9:45 AM, rengel  wrote:

>> the python_terminal plugin
​[is now]​
visible in the plugins menu and in the Log pane.

> Does this imply that every outline opened has its own Python console?

​At present, the answer is yes.  A global console is conceivable, but does
not seem necessary.

Edward

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 8:24 AM, Zoom.Quiet  wrote:

> > 1. Better theme setting and pre-built themes
​ ​
#766

> this is the biggest profit task;

​Just to underscore how wretched the present situation is, it took about 10
minutes for me to figure out how to enable Chris George's new scheme.

I finally did figure it out, but this just shows that it is no good
pretending that the present way is acceptable just because we don't change
themes much.  That's emphatically not true.

Leo *must* have a library of pre-built themes that users can choose without
knowing *anything* about @settings trees and myLeoSettings.leo.

Edward

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Re: Terry, please update leo_edit_pane branch in branches.md

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Terry Brown  wrote:

> > Is there any reason not to create an issue for this?
> No, I should probably do that to clarify current subtasks.

Please do.
​Imo it's​
the
​best​
way to keep up with major projects like this.

> I guess recent work had been done in devel (master) and I figured I'd
keep doing it there.

We devs should be using devel most of the time, so pushing to devel seems
best.

> Feature branches are good for isolating things
that are non-functional or broken or likely to cause disruption, but
things like this that are fairly inert unless you specifically activate
them, working in devel doesn't seem to pose any major risk of harm.

I agree.  Devel is explicitly bleeding edge.
​ ​
We want to test your work as much as possible, and using devel
​seems​
the best way to do that.

> The upside for keeping the branch
​ ​
[snip].

I don't
​much ​
care where the work gets done.  But I do care that
​ ​
this
​project ​
is documented. Please create an item
​ that tells ​
you have done and what is planned.  Thanks!

Edward

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Re: Terry, please update leo_edit_pane branch in branches.md

[Terry Brown]

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 10:58:28 -0600
"Edward K. Ream"  wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:52 AM, Terry Brown 
> wrote:
> 
> Not that it's a reason not to document as I go, but the project's far
> > from finished.  It aspires to replace:
> > ​ [snip]
> 
> ​Is there any reason not to create an issue for this?

No, I should probably do that to clarify current subtasks.

> I'm confused.  Why delete the branch if the project isn't finished?
> 
> Edward

I guess recent work had been done in devel (master) and I figured I'd
keep doing it there.  Feature branches are good for isolating things
that are non-functional or broken or likely to cause disruption, but
things like this that are fairly inert unless you specifically activate
them, working in devel doesn't seem to pose any major risk of harm.

The upside for keeping the branch would be grouping all the commits
related to this work "together", although you can also get that by
looking for commits touching certain files.  Maybe it would be worth
doing that, although I think that horse has bolted as far as this
particular project is concerned.  The downside is the admittedly minor
chore of merging to devel when putting new features out for testing etc.

The branch can be recreated of course, although if recent commits are
in devel there will be a hole in it lineage wise.

Cheers -Terry

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 8:24 AM, Zoom.Quiet  wrote:

​>​
> 1. Better theme setting and pre-built themes

> suggest base Sublime Text 3 's
​ ​
Spacegray/base16-eighties.dark.tmTheme -> predawn-DEV.sublime-theme

​Thanks. ​
I've made a note of this suggestion in #766.

​Edward​

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Re: I love Leo, but... Scrivener and Org-Mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 8:34 AM, David Szent-Györgyi 
wrote:

Googling "scrivener convert to LaTeX" yields this page
>> .
>> It doesn't look to difficult to translate this approach into Leo. I've
>> given it a 5.7.1 milestone, which means it will happen this year.
>>
>
> Would it make sense to make use of
> ​​
> Pandoc ?
>

​This kinda a FAQ.  The short answer is, "maybe".  I don't use pandoc in
every workflow, so I'm not really familiar with it.  I've made a note of
this suggestion in #767
.

Edward

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Re: Terry, please update leo_edit_pane branch in branches.md

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:52 AM, Terry Brown  wrote:

Not that it's a reason not to document as I go, but the project's far
> from finished.  It aspires to replace:
> ​ [snip]
>

​Is there any reason not to create an issue for this?

I'm confused.  Why delete the branch if the project isn't finished?

Edward

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Re: Is it time to discuss Leo in a MacInTouch lovefest for Dave Winer's MORE outliner?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:00 AM, David Szent-Györgyi 
wrote:

>
​ ​
I recall reading that MORE was one of Edward's inspirations for Leo.

It was.  Clones would not have happened otherwise.

>
​ ​
A MacInTouch discussion of reminiscences of old technology is full of
praise for MORE's technology, starting with this comment.

​MORE's design​ was superb. The code, while amazing for its time, was buggy.

Furthermore, clones were in fact *copies* of nodes, so updating an outline
containing clones was very slow.  Leo has gone through two or three major
improvements to its data structure since those early.  Now, *all *outline
operations merely change python references (like changing C pointers).
Leo's unlimited undo means that data is never actually garbage collected,
which is correct.

Feel free to discuss Leo on MacInTouch.  Leo doesn't do presentations
directly, but it does everything else far better than MORE did.  And Leo
(almost) never hard crashes, which could not be said for MORE.

Edward

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Re: Terry, please update leo_edit_pane branch in branches.md

[Terry Brown]

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 10:43:35 -0600
"Edward K. Ream"  wrote:

> ​Thanks.  Where would I find documentation for what you did?

Not that it's a reason not to document as I go, but the project's far
from finished.  It aspires to replace:

 - viewrendered*
 - the body pane (with, essentially, the body pane)
 - the stickynotes plugin
 - the richtext plugin

and to add

 - Jupyter style eval/output pair cells
 - seamless editing of separate nodes
 - 'code only view' for literate programming type things

etc.

Cheers -Terry

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Re: python_terminal.py now enabled by default in master & devel

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:04 AM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:

This plugin creates a python terminal in the Log pane.
>

​It may be possible to use an ipython terminal instead.  This will always
be optional

I am excited about the possibilities: better syntax coloring, better
autocompletion and (maybe) an easily visible alternative to the valuespace
plugin/Easter Egg. Plus direct access to a superb programming ecosystem.

Edward

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Re: Terry, please update leo_edit_pane branch in branches.md

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Terry Brown  wrote:

​> ​
> ​Is there any reason to retain leo_edit_pane?
...​If not, please delete the branch.
> Gone.

​Thanks.  Where would I find documentation for what you did?

Edward

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Re: Terry, please update leo_edit_pane branch in branches.md

[Terry Brown]

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 01:18:08 -0600
"Edward K. Ream"  wrote:

> ​I see.  Is there any reason to retain leo_edit_pane?  If there is,
> please update branches.md.  If not, please delete the branch :-)

Gone.

Cheers -Terry

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Nightly builds will continue

[Edward K. Ream]

I see no great reason to change anything about nightly builds.  Some people 
may use them.  If not, no great harm is done.

Using the devel branch instead of master for most work implicitly changes 
what the nightly builds represent.  Previously, they were the bleeding 
edge.  Now, they are (supposedly) the most stable code.  Imo, this change 
need not be documented anywhere else but here.

This is the present plan, and I will stay with it unless someone 
strenuously objects, which I doubt will happen :-)

Edward

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python_terminal.py now enabled by default in master & devel

[Edward K. Ream]

This plugin creates a python terminal in the Log pane.

Edward

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Is it time to discuss Leo in a MacInTouch lovefest for Dave Winer's MORE outliner?

[David Szent-Györgyi]

I recall reading that MORE was one of Edward's inspirations for Leo. 

A MacInTouch discussion of reminiscences of old technology is full of 
praise for MORE's technology, starting with this comment 

. 

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Re: I love Leo, but... Scrivener and Org-Mode

[David Szent-Györgyi]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 7:50:31 AM UTC-5, Israel Hands wrote:
>
> What do I use Leo for then?
>
> Content - for me content is king. Manipulate it - tag it - filter it - 
> anything you like but it's about content.
>
> So my first use of Leo is as a free form database for notes, minutes, 
> agendas,passwords, journal type stuff. Leo is a tremendously effective 
> bucket for information - and the ability to link to external files adds to 
> this capability.
> I have written simple Python scripts.  
> So I am by no means a heavy duty user in terms of features but Leo is open 
> on my computers Win10 and OSX all the time. 
>
> However there are things (and these I'm sure are very particular to me) 
> that make me look elsewhere for tools that I probably could and should use 
> Leo for that I don't.
>
> I'm a writer and generally my output is PDFs via Latex. I have looked at 
> the info on a workflow from Leo and just not found the energy to tackle it.
>
> So I use Scrivener - which is tree based - looks great and has a 
> relatively simple 'compile' mode to Latex.  Now any attempt to turn Leo 
> into Scrivener would be madness, but if someone wrote a Latex plugin that
> simple folk like me could use that would be great. However I hear the 
> argument 'there are plenty of text to Latex tools why should Leo be 
> another?' Well Leo has the tremendous advantage of not having to 'contain' 
> all the files
> within itself - it can just reference them. So in Scrivener when I output 
>  the document.tex file and then I want to make edits then I have go round 
> the whole edit in scrivener, compile, TexStudio routine. Whereas in Leo I 
> could just reference the 
> document.tex file and edit it directly from within Leo or just make the 
> final edits in TexStudio know that Leo will be able to reflect those edits 
> in the referenced file. 
>
> Secondly I use org-mode - nothing sophisticated - not even as a todo list 
> - but as my daily agenda and reminder - I need a lot of reminding.  Org's 
> capture and schedule tools are second to none. And with the addition of 
> Beorg on iOS 
> Org is surely going from strength to strength.  Seeing my Org Mode Agenda 
> in Leo would be lovely - having that agenda fire reminders from Leo would 
> be even better. 
>
> I wonder if I am alone on this island or are there other Leo users who 
> step away to do Scrivener and Org type things? 
>

You're not alone. I'm about to begin exploring Scrivener on a Mac, for 
writing technical manuals, including one that would run into the hundreds 
of pages with at least one index - grist for MultiMarkdown, I'm waiting for 
the posting of the Scrivener project for the manual for Scrivener 3. 

I've been reluctant to plunge into Org Mode since I don't necessarily want 
to live in Emacs. 

Twelve years ago or so, I used Leo under Windows to organize a software 
development effort; I loved the outliner-with-clones toolkit. I've wondered 
whether anyone uses Scrivener to track technical support work, with the 
mindset that the history of technical support for a customer is a form of 
storytelling. . . . .

Since my Leo-based project of twelve years ago, I've switched jobs and 
moved from hosting my work on a Windows computer to basing my work on a 
Mac. I haven't figured out a Mac installation of Python and Qt and 
everything else needed for Leo. I gather that work has been done on 
installing Leo via Homebrew. Past reading left me preferring MacPorts to 
Homebrew, since MacPorts addressed multiple-user Macs where Homebrew did 
not. 

But, my Mac-related struggles are grist for a separate discussion thread. . 
. .

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[rengel]

>
>
> ​> ​
> If the Python console should be used, make it visible in the menu; don't 
> bury it in the documentation.
>
> ​Actually, my intention is to make key features visible *directly*, not 
> just in menus.​
>
 

> I am going to enable the python_terminal plugin today, in both master and 
> devel.  Once that is done, the plugin will be visible in the plugins menu 
> *and 
> in the Log pane*.
>

Does this imply that every outline opened has its own Python console? If 
you put the console in the Log pane, IMHO, you might create a 'hierarchy 
clash'. As I understand the Leo UI, the three panes (Outline, Log, Editor) 
always *belong to one and the same* outline. A Python console that serves 
all outlines opened would break this design.

Again, PyCharm has a solution for this problem:

In PyCharm, if you hover above the left-most button in the status bar, a 
list of tools is presented (among them a Python console). If chosen, the 
Python console is opened below the other panes, with its *own vertical 
toolbar* to the left.

Reinhard

>

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Re: Rethinking Leo's distribution process

[David Szent-Györgyi]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 9:06:12 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>
> ​I would happily abandon all the work we have done, except perhaps 
> assoc.exe.
>

Unless I misread the current situation, the NSIS installer for Leo and all 
its files is no longer in use - the file association is all that you handle 
now. That makes sense, given the use of multiple source trees that goes 
with modern workflow. 

It was clear to me twelve years ago that the detail work of deployment was 
not your focus, you wanted to work on the technologies of Leo itself. I 
wouldn't expect that to change! 

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Re: I love Leo, but... Scrivener and Org-Mode

[David Szent-Györgyi]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 8:16:33 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:

> ​#774 Convert Leo trees to LaTex as in Scrivener 
>  is a new 
> enhancement request. 
>
> Googling "scrivener convert to LaTeX" yields this page 
> . 
> It doesn't look to difficult to translate this approach into Leo. I've 
> given it a 5.7.1 milestone, which means it will happen this year.
>

Would it make sense to make use of Pandoc ? 

>

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[David Szent-Györgyi]

On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 11:27:59 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:

*2. Better support for markdown*
>
> #767: Add markdown command similar to rst3 command 
> . I want to move 
> Leo's docs to markdown.
>
> #763: Use html comments to support @file x.md 
> . This will allow 
> structured markdown files.
>

Scrivener  supports 
MultiMarkdown  for technical 
writing. The Wikipedia article on Markdown mentions MultiMarkdown as well 
as other variants in its discussion of standardization efforts 
. Once one has more 
than one standard, there is no standard - which one to use? 

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Re: Rethinking Leo's distribution process

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 7:44 AM, David Szent-Györgyi 
wrote:

> A decade ago, when you were kindly using NSIS to generate proper Windows
> installers for each release of Leo, I worked on an enhanced NSIS installer.
>

​I would happily abandon all the work we have done, except perhaps
assoc.exe.

Edward

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Re: Rethinking Leo's distribution process

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 7:41 AM, David Szent-Györgyi 
wrote:

>
> I can't find assoc.exe in the source code for Leo. Where is it? What does
> it do?
>

​leoDist.leo#NSIS source files-->@file ../../leo_assoc.nsi​


​It sets Windows associations without installing files.

Edward

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[David Szent-Györgyi]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 7:56:48 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 6:49 AM, David Szent-Györgyi  > wrote:
>
> ​> ​
> My coworker's motto was, "If it's stupid, and it works, it isn't stupid"!
>
> ​Hehe.  It's an arguable point.​
>  
> ​There is also an argument for cleanups, when possible.​
> ​ Vitalije is working on collapsing Leo's tree-drawing code as we speak.
>

Cleanup and improvement are worthwhile, given time and energy that I 
couldn't spare in those days. Now, I have some time to address the matter. 
 

> ​> ​
> Do we know whether @root and @tangle work in 2018-era Leo?
>
> ​@root and Leo's tangle and untangle commands will remain "forever".  They 
> are, on purpose, no longer documented, but there is nothing whatever to be 
> gained by removing a feature that you and others still use.
>

Thank you! 

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Re: Rethinking Leo's distribution process

[David Szent-Györgyi]

A decade ago, when you were kindly using NSIS to generate proper Windows 
installers for each release of Leo, I worked on an enhanced NSIS installer. 
In those days, it was possible to install Python itself for all users of a 
machine or for the current user only, and I figured out how to handle those 
cases. My thought was, I would make it possible to install and test a 
development copy of Leo on a secondary Windows login, using an installation 
of Python and one of Leo for the current user only. Testing thoroughly on a 
single machine struck me as worthwhile. 

The NSIS installer required careful management of source code to make it 
work, and the syntax of NSIS scripts was unique. You ended up abandoning 
it. 

Regarding extending the *register-leo.leox* and *unregister-leo.leox *scripts: 
in 
the pre-Windows-Vista days when I worked on the enhanced NSIS installer, 
there was no concern with User Account Control privileges, and I chose not 
to address 64-bit Windows XP. Now, UACs are with us, and Microsoft supports 
the use of 32-bit applications on 64-bit Windows, so the number of possible 
scenarios is greater than it was when I worked on this. 

We also have virtual machine technology that makes it possible to run a 
testbed without multiple accounts, which might limit the need for the 
approaches I worked on. 

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Re: Rethinking Leo's distribution process

[David Szent-Györgyi]

On Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 12:49:48 PM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 11:11 AM, Matt Wilkie  > wrote:
>
>>
>> - No need for sourceforge, pyinstaller, windows installer.
>>>
>>
>> The only significant advantage of those installers over the pip install 
>> route is desktop integration (menu and desktop links, file type 
>> association). This could be done from inside Leo via a settings menu 
>> item[0], though I'm not sure about the effort/profit ratio due to varying 
>> operating systems and elevation privileges.
>>
>
> ​Leo already has assoc.exe, which iirc does all this.
>

I can't find assoc.exe in the source code for Leo. Where is it? What does 
it do? 

I do find in the *scripts* folder within the Leo source code files 
*register-leo.leox* and *unregister-leo.leox *- these handle Windows 
Registry entries for using *launchLeo.py* for a simple one of the (many!) 
scenarios supported by Microsoft. Are these scripts deprecated, or are they 
in active use?

If they are in active use, they might be extended to make for easier 
testing of Leo, and more flexible use. 

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Re: I love Leo, but... Scrivener and Org-Mode

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 6:50 AM, Israel Hands  wrote:

​> ​
Disclaimer

​No need for that.

​>
​ ​
Scrivener
​.. ​
has a relatively simple 'compile' mode to Latex.

​#774 Convert Leo trees to LaTex as in Scrivener
 is a new enhancement
request.

Googling "scrivener convert to LaTeX" yields this page
.
It doesn't look to difficult to translate this approach into Leo. I've
given it a 5.7.1 milestone, which means it will happen this year.

​> ​
Seeing my Org Mode Agenda in Leo would be lovely
​.

Leo supposedly can read .org files.  Have you tried doing so?

> Having that agenda fire reminders from Leo would be even better.

#775: Support org mode agendas in Leo
 is another
enhancement request.

This has a 5.8 milestone, which is no guarantee that it will be done soon.

​Edward​

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 6:49 AM, David Szent-Györgyi 
wrote:

​> ​
My coworker's motto was, "If it's stupid, and it works, it isn't stupid"!

​Hehe.  It's an arguable point.​

​There is also an argument for cleanups, when possible.​
​ Vitalije is working on collapsing Leo's tree-drawing code as we speak.

​> ​
Do we know whether @root and @tangle work in 2018-era Leo?

​@root and Leo's tangle and untangle commands will remain "forever".  They
are, on purpose, no longer documented, but there is nothing whatever to be
gained by removing a feature that you and others still use.

Edward

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I love Leo, but... Scrivener and Org-Mode

[Israel Hands]

Disclaimer - I understand that nothing breaks software like trying to 
satisfy the demands of disparate individual users. I do realise that so 
this is observation not really requests and certainly not criticism!
Leo is wonderful. 

When I read the group postings I often don't feel at all like the target 
audience. Now that of course is probably because I'm not the target 
audience, my programming skills are just no where near good enough!
What do I use Leo for then?

Content - for me content is king. Manipulate it - tag it - filter it - 
anything you like but it's about content.

So my first use of Leo is as a free form database for notes, minutes, 
agendas,passwords, journal type stuff. Leo is a tremendously effective 
bucket for information - and the ability to link to external files adds to 
this capability.
I have written simple Python scripts.  
So I am by no means a heavy duty user in terms of features but Leo is open 
on my computers Win10 and OSX all the time. 

However there are things (and these I'm sure are very particular to me) 
that make me look elsewhere for tools that I probably could and should use 
Leo for that I don't.

I'm a writer and generally my output is PDFs via Latex. I have looked at 
the info on a workflow from Leo and just not found the energy to tackle it.

So I use Scrivener - which is tree based - looks great and has a relatively 
simple 'compile' mode to Latex.  Now any attempt to turn Leo into Scrivener 
would be madness, but if someone wrote a Latex plugin that
simple folk like me could use that would be great. However I hear the 
argument 'there are plenty of text to Latex tools why should Leo be 
another?' Well Leo has the tremendous advantage of not having to 'contain' 
all the files
within itself - it can just reference them. So in Scrivener when I output 
 the document.tex file and then I want to make edits then I have go round 
the whole edit in scrivener, compile, TexStudio routine. Whereas in Leo I 
could just reference the 
document.tex file and edit it directly from within Leo or just make the 
final edits in TexStudio know that Leo will be able to reflect those edits 
in the referenced file. 

Secondly I use org-mode - nothing sophisticated - not even as a todo list - 
but as my daily agenda and reminder - I need a lot of reminding.  Org's 
capture and schedule tools are second to none. And with the addition of 
Beorg on iOS 
Org is surely going from strength to strength.  Seeing my Org Mode Agenda 
in Leo would be lovely - having that agenda fire reminders from Leo would 
be even better. 

I wonder if I am alone on this island or are there other Leo users who step 
away to do Scrivener and Org type things? 

Notwithstanding these minor niggles it would be churlish not to thank 
everyone for their efforts especially EKR so THANKS!


IH

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[David Szent-Györgyi]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 2:39:59 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 11:39 PM, David Szent-Györgyi  > wrote:
>
>> I employed Leo for an oddball use case, which it addressed beautifully. 
>>
>
> ​
> Quite an interesting project.  Your post is now in LeoDocs.leo and will 
> appear on Leo's web site when it gets updated. 
>

Let me know if I can clarify that posting.  

I was using commands that were by your standards less easy to use. I was 
also structuring my Leo outline in a way that risked data loss if I did a 
Wrong Thing. As such, I did not explain the details of what I'd done. The 
guideline I followed came from a coworker who had to figure out how to 
install assortments of demanding expansion cards in computers that did not 
work unless those cards were installed Just So. My coworker's motto was, 
"If it's stupid, and it works, it isn't stupid"!

I would like to maintain the utilities that I wrote using Leo all those 
years ago - at least one of them remains useful. Do we know whether @root 
and @tangle work in 2018-era Leo?

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 12:47 AM, rengel  wrote:

​> ​
you might want to study the user interface of PyCharm (
https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/), especially their wording of menu
entries and their 'Tools' menu.

​Good idea.  It's on my list of things to do immediately.
​

​> ​
If the Python console should be used, make it visible in the menu; don't
bury it in the documentation.

​Actually, my intention is to make key features visible *directly*, not
just in menus.​

I am going to enable the python_terminal plugin today, in both master and
devel.  Once that is done, the plugin will be visible in the plugins menu *and
in the Log pane*.

Terry and I are debating whether this should be moved to Leo's core, or
remain a plugin.  The issue, I think, is whether any related commands could
be "baked in" to Leo's menus, or created dynamically by the plugin.  I'm
investigating, but there is so much going on right now that it may take a
few days.

Terry and I are also debating whether the valuespace plugin suffices.  Imo,
it does not, precisely because its way-cool features are hidden.  I am
investigating embedding an ipython terminal into Leo. That would make all
of ipython's cool features *visible* as well as available.  There's a big
difference.

Edward

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Re: The first, urgent task: show people what Leo already has

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 9:24 PM, lewis  wrote:

A recent discussion by Terry of the valuespace plugin helped me grasp just
> one basic idea of what it did.
> Terry noted "The vs-eval-block command from the valuespace plugin gives
> Leo a cell like behavior." This seems to be hinting that these cells are
> similar to the Jupyter cells. If this is true, may I propose 2 ideas...
>
> 1. Can the output be directed to a vr type pane? Rather than just output
> to log pane.
>

​Anything is possible, and Leo already has facilities for redirecting
output.
​


> 2. Is it worth considering a rename of the valuespace plugin? Valuespace
> doesn't give an immediate hint of what the plugin does. I think basic
> marketing concepts are important and encourage users to take the plunge
> with a product feature.
>

​Perhaps, but it would not clarify matters enough.

I am investigating putting an ipython pane into Leo
​. This might
enhance/replace the python_terminal plugin.

Edward

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