Re: Schikkers List

[Federico Bruni]

2013/12/5 Jan Nieuwenhuizen 

> Federico Bruni writes:
>
> > I'm not a coder, so nothing.
> > I was just thinking that I may test it better if I could run it on my
> > computer.
>
> Okay...thanks for the offer!  I'll think about it.  Because development
> is so slow the code is only available to the actual developers for now.
>
>
ok, I supposed that was the  reason



> > It's a nice idea if the purpose of the application is teaching
> > lilypond syntax by interacting with a GUI.
>
> That's one of the main purposes, to help people make jump the hurdle
> of text input.  I predict that some people who would never consider
> using text input, may still start to use it once they experience that
> all their clumsy mousings can be described so short and simple in
> text.
>
> > Actually, it's a great idea: I would add a link in the website
> > introduction once you feel that it's stable enough.
>
> Thanks.  I was thinking of active panes in the tutorial.  What if
> you could edit all these snippets:
>
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/simple-notation
>
>
Edit locally in your browser, right? Using the software on the server.. Cool


> > I have a feature request that it may make this app special: note entry
> > using a tablature instead of a staff.  You choose the tuning and then
> > enter numbers on each string, then the number should be turned into
> > the right pitch.  I guess this is not easy to implement. But it may
> > attract users of Tuxguitar, Guitarpro and similar.
>
> I'm not a guitar player/tab staff reader, so I don't really get the
> idea of what this should look like.  How/why would you enter numbers
> rather than click on the Tab staff?
>
>
When you click on the TabStaff you can only select the string, there's no
pitch. When you enter the fret  number, the program can find the right
pitch combining string + fret number (and taking the  tuning into account).


> Can we do away with choosing the tuning, isn't there a common tuning
> for guitar that > 90% of guitars use?
>
> If someone would want to have a go with implementing this, I'd be
> glad to talk with them.
>
>
Sure, you should let the default guitar tuning but also offer the option to
change the tuning.
If the tuning changes, obviously string + fret number combination will
refer to a different pitch.

All the guitar players I know work with software which uses this kind of
input. MuseScore already have this feature in the current development
version (2.x), but I did just a quick test.



> > How can I make an horizontal selection?
>
> Push down mouse-1, drag to the left or right.
>
>
I managed to get it one after several tries. Now I can't make it working
anymore.
There's something buggy? Or maybe I lost the ability to use the mouse since
I use lilypond :-)
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Re: Schikkers List

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Noeck writes:

> how do you generate the visual output?

Using LilyPond.

> Does this scale to larger scores?

It depends.  Larger score support will need a lot of work.  The first
thing is to get this project really started.

> Is there a possibility to compile line by line to get smaller changes
> quicker?

Yes, that was the main reason for me to create the prototypes of
Schikkers List that were released three years ago.

Greetings, Jan

-- 
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Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar®  http://AvatarAcademy.nl  

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Werner LEMBERG]

> I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something
> out of the eighties knocked up on a dos machine.  By comparison,
> take a look at the home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.

Actually, I don't see a very big difference between lilypond's and
musescore's site.  But improvements are always possible, of course.
Do you want to work on that?  We don't have a specialist who really
likes to dive into the nifty HTML and Java issues while creating the
contents via the texinfo format so that the PDF stays in sync with the
HTML and info output.


Werner

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Re: Schikkers List

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Federico Bruni writes:

> I'm not a coder, so nothing.
> I was just thinking that I may test it better if I could run it on my
> computer.

Okay...thanks for the offer!  I'll think about it.  Because development
is so slow the code is only available to the actual developers for now.

> I see that the demo doesn't work always: for example, now I
> refreshed the page and the canvas is empty (no staff).

Oh, that's bad.  It's up again...

> Sure, but the thing is: why showing the text input if you cannot
> modify it?

Why enable editing the text input as long as it's next to useless
because it's slow and buggy?  Your request is noted, though.

> It's a nice idea if the purpose of the application is teaching
> lilypond syntax by interacting with a GUI.

That's one of the main purposes, to help people make jump the hurdle
of text input.  I predict that some people who would never consider
using text input, may still start to use it once they experience that
all their clumsy mousings can be described so short and simple in
text.

> Actually, it's a great idea: I would add a link in the website
> introduction once you feel that it's stable enough.

Thanks.  I was thinking of active panes in the tutorial.  What if
you could edit all these snippets:

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/simple-notation

> OTOH if you want to create a GUI application, I'd remove the text
> input (at least, until you implement the "two-way edit").

There are many GUI applications that have this feature: "only editable
by mouse" already.  I don't think that brings anything new and
interesting to this world.

> I have a feature request that it may make this app special: note entry
> using a tablature instead of a staff.  You choose the tuning and then
> enter numbers on each string, then the number should be turned into
> the right pitch.  I guess this is not easy to implement. But it may
> attract users of Tuxguitar, Guitarpro and similar.

I'm not a guitar player/tab staff reader, so I don't really get the
idea of what this should look like.  How/why would you enter numbers
rather than click on the Tab staff?

Can we do away with choosing the tuning, isn't there a common tuning
for guitar that > 90% of guitars use?

If someone would want to have a go with implementing this, I'd be
glad to talk with them.

> How can I make an horizontal selection?

Push down mouse-1, drag to the left or right.

> I think that yesterday somehow I managed to select more than a note,
> using Alt or Ctrl; but then slur didn't work. Today the demo is not
> working, so I'm stuck... Did I say that I'd like to install it on my
> PC? :-)

:-)

You can always ask, I'll think about it.
Jan

-- 
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Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar®  http://AvatarAcademy.nl  

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Carl Peterson  writes:

> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Tim McNamara  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Phil Burfitt 
>> wrote:
>> > I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like
>> > something out of the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By
>> > comparison, take a look at the home pages of musescore, finale and
>> > sibelius.
>>
>> If you think that Lilypond's web page needs a facelift, then volunteer to
>> roll up your sleeves and help change it by writing text blocks, creating
>> better HTML, creating better graphics, etc.  There is no well-funded
>> corporation behind Lilypond, just a bunch of dedicated and amazingly
>> talented volunteer programmers.
>
>
> Where do I sign up and what do I need to know about the way the
> current site works? I cannot write a single line of C++, my Scheme
> skills are meager at best (limited mostly to taking existing code and
> tweaking parameters), and I've only looked into MetaFont enough to
> send a patch to Janek to review to refine the shape note parameters to
> deal with unsightly MI and SO noteheads. (speaking of which,
> Janek... :) ). But I can do web development.

One thing you have to realize that much of the content is created
programmatically with a uniform look and feel.  So much is contained in
style sheets, and most of the rest is basically hand-written fragments
combined by procedures.

Which, in comparison to the popular HTML authoring tools generating
oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody peruses closely, exactly
entails the workflows that would have been used for "something out of
the eighties knocked up on a dos machine".

So if you are versed with modern tools for web development, you may
easily be frustrated at just how little possibility there is for
employing them as you are used to do.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2013-12-05 um 01:12 schrieb David Kastrup :

> Francisco Vila  writes:
> 
>> 2013/12/4 David Kastrup :
>>> The last time this discussion came up, Frescobaldi did not work on
>>> MacOSX.  And it comes with its own dependencies.  And installers.
>> 
>> Fresco is now in Macports (whatever that means) and I think that means
>> it is now very easy to install there.
> 
> "It is very easy to install there" is not the same as "it is very easy
> to integrate into LilyPond's installer".

Right, and „very easy to install“ is not true for the average Mac user - 
MacPorts is kind of a Linux parallel installation on your mac, controlled by 
command line.
And Frescobaldi has so much dependencies, it pulls in nearly a complete Linux 
with some hours of compile time.

I’m glad it works, but it doesn’t avoid the command line problem for clicky 
users.


Greetlings, Hraban
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
http://www.fiee.net
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)





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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Carl Peterson]

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Tim McNamara  wrote:

>
> On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Phil Burfitt 
> wrote:
> > I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something out
> of the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By comparison, take a look at
> the home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.
>
> All things considered, I'd rather focus Lilypond's meager resources to
> software that creates beautifully engraved sheet music.  The printed output
> of Lilypond is vastly superior (and more readable by musicians) than
> MuseScore, Finale or Sibelius.  I'm always amazed at how crappy Finale
> output looks, in particular.
>
> If you think that Lilypond's web page needs a facelift, then volunteer to
> roll up your sleeves and help change it by writing text blocks, creating
> better HTML, creating better graphics, etc.  There is no well-funded
> corporation behind Lilypond, just a bunch of dedicated and amazingly
> talented volunteer programmers.


Where do I sign up and what do I need to know about the way the current
site works? I cannot write a single line of C++, my Scheme skills are
meager at best (limited mostly to taking existing code and tweaking
parameters), and I've only looked into MetaFont enough to send a patch to
Janek to review to refine the shape note parameters to deal with unsightly
MI and SO noteheads. (speaking of which, Janek... :) ). But I can do web
development.

Carl P.
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Re: LilyPond (and Denemo?)

[Ryan McClure]

I saw your video and kind of chuckled at how many windows popped up... not to
make light of how many come up :) I only have two, the main window and a PDF
viewer. 



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Tim McNamara]

On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Phil Burfitt  wrote:

> From: "Janek Warchol" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 11:55 PM
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> a couple of thoughts:
>> 
>> 2013/12/4 Francisco Vila :
>>> I find this path tortuous. People double-click
>>> the lilypond icon, and don't see this shell as many of them could
>>> expect. Instead, ugly things happen. Therefore, lilypond is ugly. I
>>> think this summarizes the start and the end of a newcomer's
>>> experience.
>> 
>> AMEN.
>> Francisco nailed it on the head.
>> Such things may seem small, but they make all the difference, and the
>> biggest companies (like Apple) know about this.  First impression,
>> elegance, simplicity, intuitiveness, etc. are very important.

Apple's applications are written by a legion of well paid professionals who do 
nothing but live up to the Apple aesthetic.  Lilypond is written by a bunch of 
volunteers in their spare times, none of whom (as far as I know) is an GUI 
interface expert.

Powerful software and simple software are usually mutually exclusive.  Compare 
Word, Pages and LaTeX, for example.  Pages is more elegant but can do a small 
fraction of what Word can do.  Word can't do a lot of things that LaTeX can.


> AMEN+1
> 
> I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something out of 
> the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By comparison, take a look at the 
> home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.

All things considered, I'd rather focus Lilypond's meager resources to software 
that creates beautifully engraved sheet music.  The printed output of Lilypond 
is vastly superior (and more readable by musicians) than MuseScore, Finale or 
Sibelius.  I'm always amazed at how crappy Finale output looks, in particular.

If you think that Lilypond's web page needs a facelift, then volunteer to roll 
up your sleeves and help change it by writing text blocks, creating better 
HTML, creating better graphics, etc.  There is no well-funded corporation 
behind Lilypond, just a bunch of dedicated and amazingly talented volunteer 
programmers.


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Re: LilyPond (and Denemo?)

[SoundsFromSound]

Ryan McClure wrote
> Not having a problem here. I installed Denemo 1.0.4-1 on Arch and it works
> fine. What OS are you running?

Hi Ryan. I wasn't necessarily reporting any "problem", just a question or
concern about how Denemo loads a ton of different mini-windows on startup.
Were you able to check out the video I included? It shows what I was trying
to describe.

Ben



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Burfitt]

- Original Message - 
From: "Janek Warchoł" 

To: "Phil Burfitt" 
Cc: "LilyPond Users" 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience



2013/12/5 Phil Burfitt :
I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something out 
of
the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By comparison, take a look at 
the

home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.


are you visiting http://lilypond.org/ or http://lilypond.org/web/ ?

Janek




http://lilypond.org/

Of course it's a matter of taste, but that's how I see it - sorry:(

Phil.



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/5 Phil Burfitt :
> I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something out of
> the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By comparison, take a look at the
> home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.

are you visiting http://lilypond.org/ or http://lilypond.org/web/ ?

Janek

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Burfitt]

From: "Janek Warchol" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 11:55 PM


Hi,

a couple of thoughts:

2013/12/4 Francisco Vila :

I find this path tortuous. People double-click
the lilypond icon, and don't see this shell as many of them could
expect. Instead, ugly things happen. Therefore, lilypond is ugly. I
think this summarizes the start and the end of a newcomer's
experience.


AMEN.
Francisco nailed it on the head.
Such things may seem small, but they make all the difference, and the
biggest companies (like Apple) know about this.  First impression,
elegance, simplicity, intuitiveness, etc. are very important.



AMEN+1

I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something out of 
the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By comparison, take a look at the 
home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.


Phil.



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Janek Warchoł  writes:

> Anyway, what about something like this: a "higher-level" installer
> that installs LilyPond and lets user choose what editing program he
> wants to use:
>
> "LilyPond files can be edited using different programs.  Pleasse
> choose what to install additionally:
> * Denemo (has a GUI but it cannot open lilypond files created with
> other programs)
> * Frescobaldi (gives you more control, but doesn't have a GUI)
> * I'm a computer wizard, and I'll use my own EMACS/vim/Notepad++"
>
> This way we avoid the problem of favoring one editor over the other.

Are you going to implement this for all GUB targets?  MacOSX, MacOS
PowerPC, Windows, FreeBSD, and so on?

Write a "higher-level" installer for all of these that will know how to
get at all the editors for all of these?

> I believe that the most important thing is just to have a powerful
> editor installed with LilyPond so that people get the most of LilyPond
> right away.

It would even better to have a friendly human tutor installed
automatically.  We just need to get her into the installer, same
problem.  For better or worse, I think that the interactive task of
managing LilyPond versions is better placed with the editors which are
supposed to interact with the user than the other way round.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Symmetrical ties in TieColumn

[Karol Majewski]

Hi, David
 
Your function for offsetting control-points of a TieColumn is very useful to me. Now it would be great if someone could improve it to make it work with ties over the line break.
 
Best
Karol
 
 
Dnia 20-10-2013 o godz. 0:39 David Nalesnik napisał(a):

Hi Karol,

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Karol Majewski  wrote:
Hi  Currently I'm making some experiments with ties.  What I need is a function that makes all ties in TieColumn have the same length (see attachment). I tried to achieve this by changing some values from Tie.details, but couldn't find the right configuration.  Then I tried to modify shapeTieColumn.ly (http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2012-06/msg00285.html) but that's probably not the way it should be done.  My question: how difficult would be to write such function?
 
The problem here is that AFAIK you can't tell LilyPond: here are the attachment points I want for my ties; draw nice ones.
.
I've come up with a sketch which does something like what you want, but you have to play around with numbers to get a good result.
 
Basically, it draws however many ties you need, but draws them with the same shape, lined up.
 
You need to specify the shape of one of them by giving a list resembling control points.
 
The y coordinates in this list are relative to 0. 
The x-coordinates represent the horizontal distance of the control points from the first NoteColumn associated with the TieColumn.
 
I don't think that makes a lot of sense--and I'm a little too tired to do better--but I fiddling with the numbers should make it clear.
 
Now the problems :)
 
--Layout changes will mess up your hard work.
--Won't work with broken ties as of yet.
 
Anyway, it's something.
 
--David
 
 








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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Janek Warchoł]

Hi,

a couple of thoughts:

2013/12/4 Francisco Vila :
> I find this path tortuous. People double-click
> the lilypond icon, and don't see this shell as many of them could
> expect. Instead, ugly things happen. Therefore, lilypond is ugly. I
> think this summarizes the start and the end of a newcomer's
> experience.

AMEN.
Francisco nailed it on the head.
Such things may seem small, but they make all the difference, and the
biggest companies (like Apple) know about this.  First impression,
elegance, simplicity, intuitiveness, etc. are very important.

Currently LilyPond's first impression (via LilyPad) is that it's a
second-rate program, looking as if it was written by a student in a
garage during the last holidays.  And it may seem that Lily is free
because it's not good enough to be worth any money.  Seriously, i
think that's the impression we're currently making.

While i'm sure that the people who created LilyPad had good
intentions, i really believe that LilyPad doesn't make sense (please
don't get offended by this).  For advanced users it's dramatically
underfeatured, while for newbies it's still not making things clear
enough.  And - at least the last time i checked - it lacks most text
editing tools, like syntax highlighting.  Only Windows notepad.exe has
less features i think.

David may be right that it'd be easier to integrate LilyPond into
Frescobaldi's installer than the other way round.  Or maybe there
won't be an easy way to have an installer that actually installs
everything - but maybe it would be enough if it downloaded other
program setup files and ran them?

Anyway, what about something like this: a "higher-level" installer
that installs LilyPond and lets user choose what editing program he
wants to use:

"LilyPond files can be edited using different programs.  Pleasse
choose what to install additionally:
* Denemo (has a GUI but it cannot open lilypond files created with
other programs)
* Frescobaldi (gives you more control, but doesn't have a GUI)
* I'm a computer wizard, and I'll use my own EMACS/vim/Notepad++"

This way we avoid the problem of favoring one editor over the other.

I believe that the most important thing is just to have a powerful
editor installed with LilyPond so that people get the most of LilyPond
right away.

best,
Janek

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Re: Supporting my work on LilyPond financially

[Chris Crossen]

> Hi,
> 
> we are nearing the end of the year, and, uh, it looks like I could make use 
> of some of the spirit of giving.
> 
> As you can see from the accompanying report, the current number of people 
> supporting my work on LilyPond financially is on the decline:
> while there are a few large donors, many of them actually have done so much 
> for LilyPond in other ways that it is embarrassing I am dependent on their 
> continued _large_ contributions.
> 
> So taking some of the load off them will not just express your gratitude 
> towards the work I do myself on LilyPond but also towards them.  It would be 
> fabulous if I could get along well with mostly "small"
> donations in the monthly €15-€25 range, but that requires quite a few more 
> who are willing to pitch in.
> 
> Think about it.  You can ask me for my SEPA bank account number (SEPA order 
> should be the cheapest variant within the Euro zone), this mail address is 
> registered at Paypal, and you can use the account number 
> 1Kw7HZMd8L52BCL9vEjSxdPG4p3phRvtQF for Bitcoin transfers.
> 
> There is still a lot LilyPond is in need of doing, I am pretty positive that 
> 2.18 will be out before Christmas, and I am responsible for a large part of 
> the developments even though the majority of contributions and of 
> organizational tasks and efforts and translation work and user help and so on 
> is done by volunteers working in their spare time.
> 
> But one person who just works on LilyPond can make a difference.  Can we keep 
> this up?
> 
> Thanks for your help!
> 
> --
> David Kastrup

David's post generated some interesting threads and discussion. But, it strayed 
from the original point. He needs more donors to continue his work for us in 
the LilyPond community.

I just wanted to re-emphasize that original point and hope the discussion has 
convinced a few more of us to make a small, but regular donation.

Thanks,
Chris Crossen


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Re: Denemo-feedback

[Johan Vromans]

Richard Shann  writes:

> At the moment this AI step is the simplest possible, it goes through the
> durations that you played assigning them to the nearest note lengths
> using only whole-note 1/256th note and dotted versions of them (no
> triplet values have been entered in the table of durations).

I assume this is customizable to, e.g., whole-note...1/8th or something
similar. 

But even if only 80% of the durations are correct, this would already be
helpful (for me, in some situations).

I'm not a piano player. I can, however, enter notes using a (MIDI)
keyboard in a slow and rhythmless pace, and I can tap the correct rhythm
on a single key. I'd love to combine these two inputs.

-- Johan

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Re: LilyPond (and Denemo?)

[Ryan McClure]

Not having a problem here. I installed Denemo 1.0.4-1 on Arch and it works
fine. What OS are you running?



-
Ryan McClure

Luna Music Engraving
www.lunamusicengraving.com
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 20:24, schrieb David Kastrup:

Urs Liska  writes:


Am 04.12.2013 19:44, schrieb David Kastrup:

Catering for integration of Frescobaldi would be a real headache.  And
the documentation would need adapting as well.  That's not to say
anything about the value provided by such an approach, but it would
likely make a lot more sense and a lot less work if the primary
installed application was Frescobaldi and it offered to install LilyPond
for you using one of our installers, rather than trying to do it the
other way round.

It would also make juggling with several versions a lot nicer since then
Frescobaldi can manage paths, and knows where it put things.

I don't know if that's something which could get a sufficient majority
because it somehow would make Frescobaldi look like an official editor
;-)

Not really.  We'd just recommend downloading and installing Frescobaldi
on certain platforms for getting a customary user experience rather than
a command line application.


OK. Then I suggest we will come back if we have managed to integrate 
LilyPond installation in Frescobaldi (Actually Wilbert says it was in 
Frescobaldi 1, although Linux only).
I think it's a good idea to do it in Frescobaldi anyway, then we/you can 
still consider how to communicate it to the end-user.



Bit I'm quite sure it would be trivial to include such a functionality
in Fresobaldi.

For a very variable value of "trivial".  But I think it would make sense
to do this distribution of labor/development for platforms where it
would work.


Of course.




It would be simple to add a menu item that looks for updates, fetches
and installs LilyPond, and finally adds it to the list of configured
LilyPond instances.
Such a function could easily be added to the installation process of
Frescobaldi.

Well, maybe a good idea to add that anyway.

It seems like a more common use case to use Frescobaldi for managing
multiple LilyPond's installed by LilyPond's installer than the other way
round, namely managing multiple Frescobaldi instances.


{
  \updateFrescobaldi #'stable-only
}

LOL

But actually I've implemented a menu in Frescobaldi that allows you to 
switch versions based on Git branches available. The next steps will be 
to update through Git, then allow switching to versions on branches of 
other remotes (i.e. contributors).
Of course everything can be done with a few Git commands. But I'm sure 
it will boost the collaborative spirit if there's a menu structure 
telling me which branches other contributors are working on.


Urs






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Re: Different beaming for triplets

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann  writes:

> On Wed, 2013-12-04 at 19:05 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Richard Shann  writes:
>> 
>> > Thank you David (and to the others that replied), I had a go at
>> > getting my head round this before I asked, I find it a serious
>> > challenge.
>> 
>> Yes.
>> 
>> > It would be nice to have a graphical way of selecting what you want
>> > visually and letting the computer do the hard work...
>> 
>> > Your new 2.19 syntax certainly looks an improvement!
>> 
>> Note:
>> 
>> >> \beamExceptions { 8[ 8 8] | \repeat unfold 3 \tuplet 3/2 { 16[ 16 16] } }
>> rather than
>> >> #'((end . (((1 . 8) . (3)) ((1 . 24) . (3 3 3)
>> 
>> Well, you can also write
>> 
>> \beamExceptions { c8[ c c] | \repeat unfold 3 \tuplet 3/2 { c16[ c c] } }
>> 
>> which will look more familiar.  But I am rather fond of the 2.19 way of
>> being able to enter rhythms without the distraction of pitches.
>
> Ha! I had just been mulling this over when you emailed. It looks like we
> could offer a Denemo command to extract beam exceptions from the current
> selection just by copying its LilyPond representation into a
> \beamExceptions parameter.

If the music has been written for that.  If you just pick some random
example measures, it is likely that the exceptions will end up being
incomplete.

> I was just trying to track down \beamExceptions in the unstable
> documentation but that seems only to go as far as 2.17 and you
> mentioned 2.19. I guess the documentation, such as it is, is still in
> the devel-discussions (naturally).

No, it is checked into master.  But it won't appear on the web site
before 2.19.0 is released.

The info looks something like

Beaming based on ‘beamExceptions’
.

Special autobeaming rules (other than ending a beam on a beat) are
defined in the ‘beamExceptions’ property.

   The value for ‘beamExceptions’, a somewhat complex Scheme data
structure, is easiest generated with the ‘\beamExceptions’ function.
This function is given one or more manually beamed measure-length
rhythmic patterns (measures have to be separated by a bar check ‘|’
since the function has no other way to discern the measure length).
Here is a simple example:

 \time 3/16
 \set Timing.beatStructure = #'(2 1)
 \set Timing.beamExceptions =
   \beamExceptions { 32[ 32] 32[ 32] 32[ 32] }
 c16 c c |
 \repeat unfold 6 { c32 } |

  Note: A ‘beamExceptions’ value must be _complete_ exceptions
  list.  That is, every exception that should be applied must be
  included in the setting.  It is not possible to add, remove,
  or change only one of the exceptions.  While this may seem
  cumbersome, it means that the current beaming settings need
  not be known in order to specify a new beaming pattern.

   When the time signature is changed, default values of
‘Timing.baseMoment’, ‘Timing.beatStructure’, and ‘Timing.beamExceptions’
are set.  Setting the time signature will reset the automatic beaming
settings for the ‘Timing’ context to the default behavior.

 \time 6/8
 \repeat unfold 6 { a8 }
 % group (4 + 2)
 \set Timing.beatStructure = #'(4 2)
 \repeat unfold 6 { a8 }
 % go back to default behavior
 \time 6/8
 \repeat unfold 6 { a8 }

   The default automatic beaming settings for a time signature are
determined in ‘scm/time-signature-settings.scm’.  Changing the default
automatic beaming settings for a time signature is described in *note
Time signature::.


-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 04.12.2013 19:44, schrieb David Kastrup:
>> Catering for integration of Frescobaldi would be a real headache.  And
>> the documentation would need adapting as well.  That's not to say
>> anything about the value provided by such an approach, but it would
>> likely make a lot more sense and a lot less work if the primary
>> installed application was Frescobaldi and it offered to install LilyPond
>> for you using one of our installers, rather than trying to do it the
>> other way round.
>>
>> It would also make juggling with several versions a lot nicer since then
>> Frescobaldi can manage paths, and knows where it put things.
>
> I don't know if that's something which could get a sufficient majority
> because it somehow would make Frescobaldi look like an official editor
> ;-)

Not really.  We'd just recommend downloading and installing Frescobaldi
on certain platforms for getting a customary user experience rather than
a command line application.

> Bit I'm quite sure it would be trivial to include such a functionality
> in Fresobaldi.

For a very variable value of "trivial".  But I think it would make sense
to do this distribution of labor/development for platforms where it
would work.

> It would be simple to add a menu item that looks for updates, fetches
> and installs LilyPond, and finally adds it to the list of configured
> LilyPond instances.
> Such a function could easily be added to the installation process of
> Frescobaldi.
>
> Well, maybe a good idea to add that anyway.

It seems like a more common use case to use Frescobaldi for managing
multiple LilyPond's installed by LilyPond's installer than the other way
round, namely managing multiple Frescobaldi instances.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Francisco Vila  writes:

> 2013/12/4 David Kastrup :
>> The last time this discussion came up, Frescobaldi did not work on
>> MacOSX.  And it comes with its own dependencies.  And installers.
>
> Fresco is now in Macports (whatever that means) and I think that means
> it is now very easy to install there.

"It is very easy to install there" is not the same as "it is very easy
to integrate into LilyPond's installer".

-- 
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[Nick Payne]

On 05/12/13 05:02, Phil Holmes wrote:
I am willing to look at improving the Windows experience, although 
this would need to wait until my degree finishes next Summer.  
However, there's one thing I don't know: what should happen when you 
double-click a .ly file in Explorer: open an editor or compile the 
file?  And if the former, how should the file be compiled? 


Well, if it were a .c or .cpp file, I would expect it to open in an 
editor. On both my Linux and Windows machines, a double-click on an ly 
file opens it in Frescobaldi.


Nick

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Re: Get context in Scheme function (determining current moment)

[Mike Solomon]

On Dec 4, 2013, at 9:45 PM, Urs Liska  wrote:

> Am 04.12.2013 17:15, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:
>> Am 04.12.2013 17:01, schrieb Urs Liska:
>>> My \annotate function should also store the position in the score (to
>>> print that out and to sort by it).
>>> So when I use the function in the input file it should store location
>>> elements and current measure and measure position in several variables.
>> so yout need some kind of music function, that inserts an info to the
>> music objects, which will be caught by an engraver, or you use applyContext.
>> Then you need some kind of singleton, which holds the annotations. Then
>> you can add them anywhere and get the list afterwards.
>> Later more on that ...
>> 
> 
> Yes, that's for later. Now I first need to collect information on the current 
> moment.
> 
> And I _do_ have read the whole section of lalily's edition.scm. But it's 
> _way_ too complex, in particular because it references so much other code 
> from outside the file.
> IISC it isn't exactly what I need so I'm afraid I have to build up my stuff 
> from ground up. Also in order to have understood what it does.
> 
> Best
> Urs

>From practice, my advice is to create a music function that does all this 
>bookkeeping for you by iterating through your stream, minding time signatures, 
>counting durations and adding events when appropriate.  All this before it 
>hits the engravers.  I wrote a function that that did this back when I removed 
>all the Es from the Overture to Fidelio (http://bit.ly/1gEXXJ7), but I lost 
>the function when my hard drive crashed.  It was a day of work, though, so 
>it’s re-doable and probably very useful for lots of people.

Cheers,
MS
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 20:56, schrieb Noeck:

IMHO users should always be pointed to Frescobaldi and install it. Could
Lilypond be included in the Frescobaldi download?


As said I wouldn't want to promote that too much because I'm biased. But 
if there was an agreement on this it would be quite simple to arrange.

Frescobaldi should _not_ include LilyPond in its download because
- many people already have LilyPond
- which version should be included?
- would blow up download size

Instead I suggest that after finishing the installation Frescobaldi's 
installer looks for an existing LilyPond installation, and if it doesn't 
find one it suggests to download, install and configure it. By default 
this should take the latest stable version, but could also offer to look 
for the latest development version.


Urs


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Noeck]

This editor in Windows is deterrent. When I started, it took several
weeks after I gave LP a second try. The first thing I then did, was
changing the default-opening-program to the standard windows notepad
editor, because the fonts an the look of this LP editor window was so
ugly. An I am glad that I came back to LP in the end.

IMHO users should always be pointed to Frescobaldi and install it. Could
Lilypond be included in the Frescobaldi download?

For an average user, Lilypond behaves quite strange:
- Doubleclick does not open a window
- Drag and drop for compiling (what is "compiling" anyway?)
- Editor window is not looking nice
- black window opens shortly (users did already complain about the
viruses in LP because they interpreted the command line window as such)

What could be expected of a windows program:
- installing one program that can be executed right a way
- main window opens from desktop or system menu short cut
- what is needed happens in this window

In that sense Frescobaldi is the program and it just uses LP in the
back. Should we then promote Frescobaldi as music engraving program
instead of LP? It would be strange as the engraving is done by LP, but
from the user’s perspective Frescobaldi is the tool he works with.
These names and startup issues can be quite confusing for new users.

Cheers,
Joram

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Re: altering stem length of tuplets

[bart deruyter]

Noeck,

thank  you, that did the trick :-) . Adding to snippets in frescobaldi :-D

grtz,

Bart

http://www.bartart3d.be/
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2013/12/4 Noeck 

> If you don't mind setting explicit beam positions, you probably could go
> with:
>
> \override Beam #'positions = #'(-2 . -2) % adjust the numbers
>
> Joram
>
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Re: Get context in Scheme function (determining current moment)

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 17:15, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

Am 04.12.2013 17:01, schrieb Urs Liska:

My \annotate function should also store the position in the score (to
print that out and to sort by it).
So when I use the function in the input file it should store location
elements and current measure and measure position in several variables.

so yout need some kind of music function, that inserts an info to the
music objects, which will be caught by an engraver, or you use applyContext.
Then you need some kind of singleton, which holds the annotations. Then
you can add them anywhere and get the list afterwards.
Later more on that ...



Yes, that's for later. Now I first need to collect information on the 
current moment.


And I _do_ have read the whole section of lalily's edition.scm. But it's 
_way_ too complex, in particular because it references so much other 
code from outside the file.
IISC it isn't exactly what I need so I'm afraid I have to build up my 
stuff from ground up. Also in order to have understood what it does.


Best
Urs

PS: I'll surely come back on this current issue because I doubt I have 
fully grasped it yet.



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Re: altering stem length of tuplets

[Noeck]

If you don't mind setting explicit beam positions, you probably could go
with:

\override Beam #'positions = #'(-2 . -2) % adjust the numbers

Joram

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altering stem length of tuplets

[bart deruyter]

Hi all,

I'm trying to figure out how to alter the stem length of tuplets. I've
tried \override Stem #'length = #1 for example. It did not work. The piece
contains 3 voices, and it is the stem length of second voice I'm trying to
change.

The explanation on 'Altering the length of beamed stems'  in the snippets
did not seem to work either, : e.g.: \override Stem.details.beamed-lengths
= #'(2)

There is very little space between the middle and lowest voice. Using the
last method, I get some effect, but random, when I increase the number the
stems can get shorter, or longer, as if lilypond tries to override the
override to avoid collisions.

Is there a specific method for tuplets to change the stem length? So far I
haven't found it.

Using lilypond 2.17.95


grtz,

Bart

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 19:44, schrieb David Kastrup:

Catering for integration of Frescobaldi would be a real headache.  And
the documentation would need adapting as well.  That's not to say
anything about the value provided by such an approach, but it would
likely make a lot more sense and a lot less work if the primary
installed application was Frescobaldi and it offered to install LilyPond
for you using one of our installers, rather than trying to do it the
other way round.

It would also make juggling with several versions a lot nicer since then
Frescobaldi can manage paths, and knows where it put things.


I don't know if that's something which could get a sufficient majority 
because it somehow would make Frescobaldi look like an official editor ;-)


Bit I'm quite sure it would be trivial to include such a functionality 
in Fresobaldi.
It would be simple to add a menu item that looks for updates, fetches 
and installs LilyPond, and finally adds it to the list of configured 
LilyPond instances.
Such a function could easily be added to the installation process of 
Frescobaldi.


Well, maybe a good idea to add that anyway.

Urs

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Francisco Vila]

2013/12/4 David Kastrup :
> The last time this discussion came up, Frescobaldi did not work on
> MacOSX.  And it comes with its own dependencies.  And installers.

Fresco is now in Macports (whatever that means) and I think that means
it is now very easy to install there.
-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[Francisco Vila]

2013/12/4 Phil Holmes :
> For me, I'd say that we should not install Frescobaldi as a pre-requisite of
> running Lily on Windows.  I'm a heavy Windows user, and would not want
> another program installed by default.

But you _already_ have another program installed by default: the
lilypad editor. What I suggest is to replace this by a proper windows
mini-shell with the essential buttons clearly visible. Open Document.
Edit Document. Compile Document. All with Auto PDF view, a selectable
external viewer in the Edit-Preferences menu. And (very important!)
message output console. Not a paragraph in the docs explaining you
have to find a log and read it. This is impossible to be popular.

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Different beaming for triplets

[Richard Shann]

On Wed, 2013-12-04 at 19:05 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> Richard Shann  writes:
> 
> > Thank you David (and to the others that replied), I had a go at
> > getting my head round this before I asked, I find it a serious
> > challenge.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > It would be nice to have a graphical way of selecting what you want
> > visually and letting the computer do the hard work...
> 
> > Your new 2.19 syntax certainly looks an improvement!
> 
> Note:
> 
> >> \beamExceptions { 8[ 8 8] | \repeat unfold 3 \tuplet 3/2 { 16[ 16 16] } }
> rather than
> >> #'((end . (((1 . 8) . (3)) ((1 . 24) . (3 3 3)
> 
> Well, you can also write
> 
> \beamExceptions { c8[ c c] | \repeat unfold 3 \tuplet 3/2 { c16[ c c] } }
> 
> which will look more familiar.  But I am rather fond of the 2.19 way of
> being able to enter rhythms without the distraction of pitches.

Ha! I had just been mulling this over when you emailed. It looks like we
could offer a Denemo command to extract beam exceptions from the current
selection just by copying its LilyPond representation into a
\beamExceptions parameter. I was just trying to track down
\beamExceptions in the unstable documentation but that seems only to go
as far as 2.17 and you mentioned 2.19. I guess the documentation, such
as it is, is still in the devel-discussions (naturally). Well, all in
good time.

Richard




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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Francisco Vila  writes:

> But wait: this has been done. Valentin Villenave dit it once. A bundle
> that installed a PDF viewer and a small button panel with all the most
> basic operatons. I don't remember if it included a message output.

I was of the impression that LilyPad _was_ what was delivered with the
Windows installer.

> But wait again: Frescobaldi already does this. It is super-easy to
> install on windows and it has got all the necessary items: an editor,
> a pre-viewer and a message output panel. Of course it has many, many
> more features, but even so it is lightweight (unlike the now almost
> defunct jEdit/lilypondtool). Why don't we do a cut-down
> Frescobaldi-like shell for the absolute beginner? The File->Open...
> menu entry must include a sub-menu with a lot of ready_to_compile
> fancy or real-world examples.

The last time this discussion came up, Frescobaldi did not work on
MacOSX.  And it comes with its own dependencies.  And installers.

> I always think all you do to lower the entry threshold is never enough
> and ours is currently a bit too high. It's not the language, it's the
> experience. And never forget Windows users are potentially way more
> numerous than command line users.

Catering for integration of Frescobaldi would be a real headache.  And
the documentation would need adapting as well.  That's not to say
anything about the value provided by such an approach, but it would
likely make a lot more sense and a lot less work if the primary
installed application was Frescobaldi and it offered to install LilyPond
for you using one of our installers, rather than trying to do it the
other way round.

It would also make juggling with several versions a lot nicer since then
Frescobaldi can manage paths, and knows where it put things.

-- 
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[Francisco Vila]

2013/12/4 SoundsFromSound :

> I'm confused. There is a Lilypad for Windows. It comes standard w/ the
> LilyPond installation. ?

Yes. But it opens IIRC when you right-click on a ly document, then choose Edit.
This lilypad editor does have a menu entry to compile. So, it is a
sort of shell/editor. I find this path tortuous. People double-click
the lilypond icon, and don't see this shell as many of them could
expect. Instead, ugly things happen. Therefore, lilypond is ugly. I
think this summarizes the start and the end of a newcomer's
experience.

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: LilyPond (and Denemo?)

[SoundsFromSound]

Noeck wrote
> Am 04.12.2013 19:23, schrieb SoundsFromSound:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Can someone take a quick look at this and see if what I'm experiencing is
>> normal? I just did a fresh install of Denemo and opened it for the first
>> time. This is what I see:
>> 
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22105560/Denemo%20Startup%20Config.mp4
>> (I've also attached a small (2MB) video file if you prefer to watch it
>> offline and not stream it.)
>> 
> 
> Thats exactly my experience, too. (as reported yesterday).
> 
> Joram
> 
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Thanks for checking! (and sorry about putting this on the LP mailing list)




-
composer | sound designer 
LilyPond Tutorials (for beginners) --> http://bit.ly/bcl-lilypond
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Re: LilyPond (and Denemo?)

[Noeck]

Am 04.12.2013 19:23, schrieb SoundsFromSound:
> Hello,
> 
> Can someone take a quick look at this and see if what I'm experiencing is
> normal? I just did a fresh install of Denemo and opened it for the first
> time. This is what I see:
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22105560/Denemo%20Startup%20Config.mp4
> (I've also attached a small (2MB) video file if you prefer to watch it
> offline and not stream it.)
> 

Thats exactly my experience, too. (as reported yesterday).

Joram

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[Phil Burfitt]

From: "Urs Liska" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 6:16 PM




I am willing to look at improving the Windows experience, although this
would need to wait until my degree finishes next Summer.  However,
there's one thing I don't know: what should happen when you 
double-click a .ly file in Explorer: open an editor or compile the file?

And if the former, how should the file be compiled?

--
Phil Holmes 


I think double-clicking should open an editor while there should be a
right-click command to compile (maybe evon label it "Create PDF").

Urs



+1


Phil



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[SoundsFromSound]

pkx166h wrote
> On 04/12/13 17:24, Francisco Vila wrote:
>> Warning. I this message, "Why don't we" does not mean "do it, you
>> slave". It means just asking "do you think it's a worthwhile idea?"
>>
>> The thread about usability and promoting has forked too much and my
>> thoughts are somewhat related to both. I am crossposting to hear users
>> feedback also, sorry for that.
>>
>> I keep seeing newcomers double-clicking the LilyPond icon on the
>> desktop despite of our warnings about not to do that. LaTeX is also
>> just a typesetting engine and people do not try to work with it by
>> first clicking on a desktop icon, do they? I don't really know what's
>> the Windows LaTeX experience like, but I can assume the user base of
>> LaTeX is far greater than LilyPond's, and newcomers have always an
>> experienced user in the nearby ready to help. That's the "critical
>> mass" effect that Finale and Sibelius already have and we don't.
>>
>> Despite of having a README just in front of your eyes, IMO we should
>> expect people will always try to "open lilypond" to work in a typical
>> program window. Why don't we just give them what they want? That is: a
>> program you open. All programs are "opened" and it doesn't matter how
>> hard we try, most people want to open the program. We could make the
>> lilypond icon to launch a shell applet to open ly projects and a
>> button to compile. Of course, a console output window and a PDF
>> pre-viewer are necessary. I see the drag-drop ritual in the tutorial
>> too few standard, too weird and too much lilypond-specific. That
>> scares newcomers.
>>
>> But wait: this has been done. Valentin Villenave dit it once. A bundle
>> that installed a PDF viewer and a small button panel with all the most
>> basic operatons. I don't remember if it included a message output.
>>
>> But wait again: Frescobaldi already does this. It is super-easy to
>> install on windows and it has got all the necessary items: an editor,
>> a pre-viewer and a message output panel. Of course it has many, many
>> more features, but even so it is lightweight (unlike the now almost
>> defunct jEdit/lilypondtool). Why don't we do a cut-down
>> Frescobaldi-like shell for the absolute beginner? The File->Open...
>> menu entry must include a sub-menu with a lot of ready_to_compile
>> fancy or real-world examples.
>>
>> Yes, we already promote easier environments, but in my opinion the
>> bare minimum we offer is too weak as to be useful for all except
>> mid-high level nerdies.
>>
>> I always think all you do to lower the entry threshold is never enough
>> and ours is currently a bit too high. It's not the language, it's the
>> experience. And never forget Windows users are potentially way more
>> numerous than command line users.
> Like this : http://lilypond.org/macos-x.html
> 
> Are you just asking for a 'Lilypad' but for Windows?
> 
> James
> 
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list

> lilypond-user@

> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

I'm confused. There is a Lilypad for Windows. It comes standard w/ the
LilyPond installation. ?



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LilyPond (and Denemo?)

[SoundsFromSound]

Hello,

Can someone take a quick look at this and see if what I'm experiencing is
normal? I just did a fresh install of Denemo and opened it for the first
time. This is what I see:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22105560/Denemo%20Startup%20Config.mp4
(I've also attached a small (2MB) video file if you prefer to watch it
offline and not stream it.)

The bottom of the screen is what I'm mainly concerned with (clutter?).

Thank you so much for taking a look!

Ben

Denemo_Startup_Config.mp4
  



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[Urs Liska]

>I am willing to look at improving the Windows experience, although this
>
>would need to wait until my degree finishes next Summer.  However,
>there's 
>one thing I don't know: what should happen when you double-click a .ly
>file 
>in Explorer: open an editor or compile the file?  And if the former,
>how 
>should the file be compiled?
>
>--
>Phil Holmes 

I think double-clicking should open an editor while there should be a 
right-click command to compile (maybe evon label it "Create PDF").

Urs


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Re: Different beaming for triplets

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann  writes:

> Thank you David (and to the others that replied), I had a go at
> getting my head round this before I asked, I find it a serious
> challenge.

Yes.

> It would be nice to have a graphical way of selecting what you want
> visually and letting the computer do the hard work...

> Your new 2.19 syntax certainly looks an improvement!

Note:

>> \beamExceptions { 8[ 8 8] | \repeat unfold 3 \tuplet 3/2 { 16[ 16 16] } }
rather than
>> #'((end . (((1 . 8) . (3)) ((1 . 24) . (3 3 3)

Well, you can also write

\beamExceptions { c8[ c c] | \repeat unfold 3 \tuplet 3/2 { c16[ c c] } }

which will look more familiar.  But I am rather fond of the 2.19 way of
being able to enter rhythms without the distraction of pitches.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Francisco Vila" 
To: "LilyPond-User list" ; "LilyPond-Devel list" 


Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 5:24 PM
Subject: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)



Warning. I this message, "Why don't we" does not mean "do it, you
slave". It means just asking "do you think it's a worthwhile idea?"

The thread about usability and promoting has forked too much and my
thoughts are somewhat related to both. I am crossposting to hear users
feedback also, sorry for that.

I keep seeing newcomers double-clicking the LilyPond icon on the
desktop despite of our warnings about not to do that. LaTeX is also
just a typesetting engine and people do not try to work with it by
first clicking on a desktop icon, do they? I don't really know what's
the Windows LaTeX experience like, but I can assume the user base of
LaTeX is far greater than LilyPond's, and newcomers have always an
experienced user in the nearby ready to help. That's the "critical
mass" effect that Finale and Sibelius already have and we don't.

Despite of having a README just in front of your eyes, IMO we should
expect people will always try to "open lilypond" to work in a typical
program window. Why don't we just give them what they want? That is: a
program you open. All programs are "opened" and it doesn't matter how
hard we try, most people want to open the program. We could make the
lilypond icon to launch a shell applet to open ly projects and a
button to compile. Of course, a console output window and a PDF
pre-viewer are necessary. I see the drag-drop ritual in the tutorial
too few standard, too weird and too much lilypond-specific. That
scares newcomers.

But wait: this has been done. Valentin Villenave dit it once. A bundle
that installed a PDF viewer and a small button panel with all the most
basic operatons. I don't remember if it included a message output.

But wait again: Frescobaldi already does this. It is super-easy to
install on windows and it has got all the necessary items: an editor,
a pre-viewer and a message output panel. Of course it has many, many
more features, but even so it is lightweight (unlike the now almost
defunct jEdit/lilypondtool). Why don't we do a cut-down
Frescobaldi-like shell for the absolute beginner? The File->Open...
menu entry must include a sub-menu with a lot of ready_to_compile
fancy or real-world examples.

Yes, we already promote easier environments, but in my opinion the
bare minimum we offer is too weak as to be useful for all except
mid-high level nerdies.

I always think all you do to lower the entry threshold is never enough
and ours is currently a bit too high. It's not the language, it's the
experience. And never forget Windows users are potentially way more
numerous than command line users.



For me, I'd say that we should not install Frescobaldi as a pre-requisite of 
running Lily on Windows.  I'm a heavy Windows user, and would not want 
another program installed by default.  I've not used it, but I do understand 
that many people feel it's excellent - so an option would be to promote it 
more heavily for Windows users?


I am willing to look at improving the Windows experience, although this 
would need to wait until my degree finishes next Summer.  However, there's 
one thing I don't know: what should happen when you double-click a .ly file 
in Explorer: open an editor or compile the file?  And if the former, how 
should the file be compiled?


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[James]

On 04/12/13 17:24, Francisco Vila wrote:

Warning. I this message, "Why don't we" does not mean "do it, you
slave". It means just asking "do you think it's a worthwhile idea?"

The thread about usability and promoting has forked too much and my
thoughts are somewhat related to both. I am crossposting to hear users
feedback also, sorry for that.

I keep seeing newcomers double-clicking the LilyPond icon on the
desktop despite of our warnings about not to do that. LaTeX is also
just a typesetting engine and people do not try to work with it by
first clicking on a desktop icon, do they? I don't really know what's
the Windows LaTeX experience like, but I can assume the user base of
LaTeX is far greater than LilyPond's, and newcomers have always an
experienced user in the nearby ready to help. That's the "critical
mass" effect that Finale and Sibelius already have and we don't.

Despite of having a README just in front of your eyes, IMO we should
expect people will always try to "open lilypond" to work in a typical
program window. Why don't we just give them what they want? That is: a
program you open. All programs are "opened" and it doesn't matter how
hard we try, most people want to open the program. We could make the
lilypond icon to launch a shell applet to open ly projects and a
button to compile. Of course, a console output window and a PDF
pre-viewer are necessary. I see the drag-drop ritual in the tutorial
too few standard, too weird and too much lilypond-specific. That
scares newcomers.

But wait: this has been done. Valentin Villenave dit it once. A bundle
that installed a PDF viewer and a small button panel with all the most
basic operatons. I don't remember if it included a message output.

But wait again: Frescobaldi already does this. It is super-easy to
install on windows and it has got all the necessary items: an editor,
a pre-viewer and a message output panel. Of course it has many, many
more features, but even so it is lightweight (unlike the now almost
defunct jEdit/lilypondtool). Why don't we do a cut-down
Frescobaldi-like shell for the absolute beginner? The File->Open...
menu entry must include a sub-menu with a lot of ready_to_compile
fancy or real-world examples.

Yes, we already promote easier environments, but in my opinion the
bare minimum we offer is too weak as to be useful for all except
mid-high level nerdies.

I always think all you do to lower the entry threshold is never enough
and ours is currently a bit too high. It's not the language, it's the
experience. And never forget Windows users are potentially way more
numerous than command line users.

Like this : http://lilypond.org/macos-x.html

Are you just asking for a 'Lilypad' but for Windows?

James

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Re: Different beaming for triplets

[Richard Shann]

On Wed, 2013-12-04 at 16:52 +, Phil Holmes wrote:
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Richard Shann" 
> To: "lilypond-user" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:30 PM
> Subject: Different beaming for triplets
> 
> 
> > I've been asked a beaming rule question:
> > 
> > Is it possible to specify a different beaming rule if a beat is divided
> > into a triplet? In this example
...
> 
> Can you use manual beaming?

you can, and if you don't want to look at the LilyPond output you can
even set up a snippet in Denemo with this beaming in it and use that
just as easily as the default triplet. But it would be nice not to
clutter the output, hence the beaming rule question.

Richard



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Re: Different beaming for triplets

[Richard Shann]

Thank you David (and to the others that replied), I had a go at getting
my head round this before I asked, I find it a serious challenge. It
would be nice to have a graphical way of selecting what you want
visually and letting the computer do the hard work...
Your new 2.19 syntax certainly looks an improvement!
Richard

On Wed, 2013-12-04 at 18:00 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> Richard Shann  writes:
> 
> > I've been asked a beaming rule question:
> >
> > Is it possible to specify a different beaming rule if a beat is divided
> > into a triplet? In this example
> >
> >
> >  \version "2.16.0"
> >  \score {
> >   {\time 3/8   
> >   d''4 \times 2/3 { bes''16 a'' bes'' }
> >   fis''8 g''8 r
> >   ees'' \times 2/3 { d''16 c'' bes' } \times 2/3 { a' g' fis' }
> >   g'16. a'32 bes'8 a'
> >   }
> > }
> >
> > The triplet is beamed together with the 1/8 notes, this override
> >
> > \overrideTimeSignatureSettings 3/8 1/8 #'(1 1 1) #'()
> >
> > breaks up the beaming at each beat so that the 1/8th notes in the second
> > bar are not beamed. Is there a way to frame an override that applies to
> > notes shorter than a certain amount, or some such?
> 
> Yes, that's what the last argument is for (the second to last can just
> be #'() as this will default to beaming on the beat).
> 
> You'd write
> \overrideTimeSignatureSettings 3/8 1/8 #'()
> \beamExceptions { 8[ 8 8] | \repeat unfold 3 \tuplet 3/2 { 16[ 16 16] } }
> 
> Except that you are not using 2.19.0.  In 2.16.0, the beam exceptions
> (calculated above with \beamExceptions) would look like
> 
> #'((end . (((1 . 8) . (3)) ((1 . 24) . (3 3 3)
> 
> This will beam the tuplets or shorter on the beat.
> 



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A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[Francisco Vila]

Warning. I this message, "Why don't we" does not mean "do it, you
slave". It means just asking "do you think it's a worthwhile idea?"

The thread about usability and promoting has forked too much and my
thoughts are somewhat related to both. I am crossposting to hear users
feedback also, sorry for that.

I keep seeing newcomers double-clicking the LilyPond icon on the
desktop despite of our warnings about not to do that. LaTeX is also
just a typesetting engine and people do not try to work with it by
first clicking on a desktop icon, do they? I don't really know what's
the Windows LaTeX experience like, but I can assume the user base of
LaTeX is far greater than LilyPond's, and newcomers have always an
experienced user in the nearby ready to help. That's the "critical
mass" effect that Finale and Sibelius already have and we don't.

Despite of having a README just in front of your eyes, IMO we should
expect people will always try to "open lilypond" to work in a typical
program window. Why don't we just give them what they want? That is: a
program you open. All programs are "opened" and it doesn't matter how
hard we try, most people want to open the program. We could make the
lilypond icon to launch a shell applet to open ly projects and a
button to compile. Of course, a console output window and a PDF
pre-viewer are necessary. I see the drag-drop ritual in the tutorial
too few standard, too weird and too much lilypond-specific. That
scares newcomers.

But wait: this has been done. Valentin Villenave dit it once. A bundle
that installed a PDF viewer and a small button panel with all the most
basic operatons. I don't remember if it included a message output.

But wait again: Frescobaldi already does this. It is super-easy to
install on windows and it has got all the necessary items: an editor,
a pre-viewer and a message output panel. Of course it has many, many
more features, but even so it is lightweight (unlike the now almost
defunct jEdit/lilypondtool). Why don't we do a cut-down
Frescobaldi-like shell for the absolute beginner? The File->Open...
menu entry must include a sub-menu with a lot of ready_to_compile
fancy or real-world examples.

Yes, we already promote easier environments, but in my opinion the
bare minimum we offer is too weak as to be useful for all except
mid-high level nerdies.

I always think all you do to lower the entry threshold is never enough
and ours is currently a bit too high. It's not the language, it's the
experience. And never forget Windows users are potentially way more
numerous than command line users.
-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: Help ~ LilyPond Tablature

[Simon Bailey]

hi,


On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Раул Апонт  wrote:
>
> I just wanted to know what is this bongos notation about, I do not
> understand what "bohm" or "boho" is, it would be a pleasure to get some
> help of you guys, I would definitely thank you if you send me a brief
> description of this notation, it is interesting because I use the bongos
> and I teach how to play them, having handy this notation is a plus to
> enhance the teaching. Thank you in advance.
>

boh = bongo high
boho = bongo high open
bohm = bongo high muted
ssh = side stick high

bol = bongo low
bolo = bongo low open
bolm = bongo low muted
ssl = side stick low

the -o form prints an "o" symbol over the notehead. the -m form prints a
"+" symbol over the notehead.

regards,
sb

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of trombonists, for they are subtle and quick
to anger.
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RE: Different beaming for triplets

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Richard,

This may help:
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/notation/beams#setting-autom
atic-beam-behavior

Mark

-Original Message-
From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
Richard Shann
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 8:30 AM
To: lilypond-user
Subject: Different beaming for triplets

I've been asked a beaming rule question:

Is it possible to specify a different beaming rule if a beat is divided into
a triplet? In this example


 \version "2.16.0"
 \score {
  {\time 3/8   
  d''4 \times 2/3 { bes''16 a'' bes'' }
  fis''8 g''8 r
  ees'' \times 2/3 { d''16 c'' bes' } \times 2/3 { a' g' fis' }
  g'16. a'32 bes'8 a'
  }
}

The triplet is beamed together with the 1/8 notes, this override

\overrideTimeSignatureSettings 3/8 1/8 #'(1 1 1) #'()

breaks up the beaming at each beat so that the 1/8th notes in the second bar
are not beamed. Is there a way to frame an override that applies to notes
shorter than a certain amount, or some such?

Richard



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Re: Different beaming for triplets

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann  writes:

> I've been asked a beaming rule question:
>
> Is it possible to specify a different beaming rule if a beat is divided
> into a triplet? In this example
>
>
>  \version "2.16.0"
>  \score {
>   {\time 3/8   
>   d''4 \times 2/3 { bes''16 a'' bes'' }
>   fis''8 g''8 r
>   ees'' \times 2/3 { d''16 c'' bes' } \times 2/3 { a' g' fis' }
>   g'16. a'32 bes'8 a'
>   }
> }
>
> The triplet is beamed together with the 1/8 notes, this override
>
> \overrideTimeSignatureSettings 3/8 1/8 #'(1 1 1) #'()
>
> breaks up the beaming at each beat so that the 1/8th notes in the second
> bar are not beamed. Is there a way to frame an override that applies to
> notes shorter than a certain amount, or some such?

Yes, that's what the last argument is for (the second to last can just
be #'() as this will default to beaming on the beat).

You'd write
\overrideTimeSignatureSettings 3/8 1/8 #'()
\beamExceptions { 8[ 8 8] | \repeat unfold 3 \tuplet 3/2 { 16[ 16 16] } }

Except that you are not using 2.19.0.  In 2.16.0, the beam exceptions
(calculated above with \beamExceptions) would look like

#'((end . (((1 . 8) . (3)) ((1 . 24) . (3 3 3)

This will beam the tuplets or shorter on the beat.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Help ~ LilyPond Tablature

[Раул Апонт]

 Hello, I need some help with this concern.

I just wanted to know what is this bongos notation about, I do not understand 
what “bohm” or “boho” is, it would be a pleasure to get some help of you guys, 
I would definitely thank you if you send me a brief description of this 
notation, it is interesting because I use the bongos and I teach how to play 
them, having handy this notation is a plus to enhance the teaching. Thank you 
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Re: Inconsistent behavior with additional staves?

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Lovis Suchmann" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 12:23 PM
Subject: Inconsistent behavior with additional staves?



Hello everyone,

first: I'm new on this mailing list, so I hope I'm on the right place for 
my question:


today when working with LilyPond, I noticed some strange behaviour with 
additional staves. Have a look at the LilyPond code below. When 
interpreting this, the staves named "eigth" and "sixteenth" do not end 
after the end of the note but contine futher on. The staves named "full", 
"half" and "quarter" end after the end of the note as expected. I think 
you will be able to reproduce this behavior, i checked it with LilyPond 
2.16 and 2.17.95. This inconsistency also happens in a slightly different 
manner when changing "\context" to "\new". I cannot see this is intended, 
so is it a bug?


(If someone is not able to reproduce what I'm talking about, please tell 
me...)


Thank you in advance :)

Lovis


I've no idea what you're trying to achieve, or why LilyPond is doing this, 
but it's easy to work around:


\context Staff = "eigth" { c'8 s128 }
\context Staff = "sixteenth" { c'16 s128 }


--
Phil Holmes 



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Different beaming for triplets

[Richard Shann]

I've been asked a beaming rule question:

Is it possible to specify a different beaming rule if a beat is divided
into a triplet? In this example


 \version "2.16.0"
 \score {
  {\time 3/8   
  d''4 \times 2/3 { bes''16 a'' bes'' }
  fis''8 g''8 r
  ees'' \times 2/3 { d''16 c'' bes' } \times 2/3 { a' g' fis' }
  g'16. a'32 bes'8 a'
  }
}

The triplet is beamed together with the 1/8 notes, this override

\overrideTimeSignatureSettings 3/8 1/8 #'(1 1 1) #'()

breaks up the beaming at each beat so that the 1/8th notes in the second
bar are not beamed. Is there a way to frame an override that applies to
notes shorter than a certain amount, or some such?

Richard



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Re: Get context in Scheme function (determining current moment)

[Jan-Peter Voigt]

Am 04.12.2013 17:01, schrieb Urs Liska:
> My \annotate function should also store the position in the score (to
> print that out and to sort by it).
> So when I use the function in the input file it should store location
> elements and current measure and measure position in several variables.
so yout need some kind of music function, that inserts an info to the
music objects, which will be caught by an engraver, or you use applyContext.
Then you need some kind of singleton, which holds the annotations. Then
you can add them anywhere and get the list afterwards.
Later more on that ...



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Re: Get context in Scheme function (determining current moment)

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 16:39, schrieb David Kastrup:

Again: what are you trying to do?
Probably my reply to your previous answer will have told you in the 
meantime.


My \annotate function should also store the position in the score (to 
print that out and to sort by it).
So when I use the function in the input file it should store location 
elements and current measure and measure position in several variables.


The main goal of that is to make it possible to annotate a score with 
different types of comments (general annotation, todo, technical 
question, musical question, critical note etc.).
When compiling the score it will (among other things) output one or 
several files (don't know yet) with sorted list(s) of (clickable) 
annotations. That way I'll have a list of things that still have to be 
done. Reading the list I can simply click on an item and go to the input 
file.


Once that's reasonably stable I intend to write a LaTeX package that can 
use the output of \annotate (at least the critical notes) and insert 
them as a critical report in a LaTeX file. (Of course it won't be 
trivial to make that generally useful, but I think it's possible).


This way one will be able to edit a critical report directly in the 
musical score.
I found proof-reading of our Fried songs edition _very_ tedious. I had 
repeatedly (and with repeatedly I mean 7 pages of three-column 
scriptsize revision entries) to

- compare original edition with new engraving
- if there was a difference: check if there is an entry for that
- if not: decide if it's an error in our score or if I have to add an entry.
always switching between paper print, LilyPond edition and files and the 
LaTeX file with the report.


With that \annotate framework I could immediately see if there's an 
entry - in the .ly file - and add or edit it.


Also, while preparing the edition I could add an annotation at any time 
when I notice a questionable item. And when I'm decided about the issue 
I can change the annotation type from "question" to "critical-note" to 
make it available for the official report.


Surely a long way to go (particulary if I'm still having to poke around 
so much with Scheme basics), but hopefully very rewarding.
If it works out it will be a big selling point towards professional 
academics.


Best
Urs

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Re: type of "location" argument

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 16:33, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

Am 04.12.2013 15:04, schrieb Urs Liska:

Hi, its:
ly:input-location?

HTH

Unfortunately not (TH).
This is what redirects me to

Input *
unsmob_input (SCM s)
{
   if (SCM_IMP (s))
 return 0;
   if (SCM_CAR (s) == (SCM)input_tag) // ugh.
 return (Input *) SCM_CDR (s);
   else
 return 0;
}

And that's where I get stuck. This function looks like it somehow munges
a Scheme pair or list, so I tried to access it through
(car location)
but that didn't work. Which isn't surprising because the original
(write) would have printed something like (location "...") if it were a
list, isn't it?

What are you trying to do? If you want to pass a location to a
music(scheme/void)-function, it looks like:

%%%
\version "2.17.96"

% save the current location
saveLocation =
#(define-void-function (parser location name)(symbol?)
(ly:parser-define! parser name location))

% show the file path of the given location
showFile =
#(define-void-function (parser location loc)(ly:input-location?)
(ly:message "file '~A'" (car (ly:input-file-line-char-column location

% save location
\saveLocation hier
% show file name
\showFile \hier
%%%

The showFile function takes a ly:input-location as argument.

Or is it something else, you are going to do?


Thanks a lot. It's _nearly_ what I want to do, but I'm quite sure it 
will help me do it.


(cdr (ly:input-file-line-char-column location))
was the thing ...


Urs


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Re: type of "location" argument

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 16:34, schrieb David Kastrup:

Urs Liska  writes:


Am 04.12.2013 15:00, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

Am 04.12.2013 14:58, schrieb Urs Liska:

Hi,

next helpless question: what Scheme type is the "location" argument used
for Scheme functions?
(write)ing location gives

Hi, its:
ly:input-location?

HTH

Unfortunately not (TH).

Wanna bet?


This is what redirects me to

Input *
unsmob_input (SCM s)
{
   if (SCM_IMP (s))
 return 0;
   if (SCM_CAR (s) == (SCM)input_tag) // ugh.
 return (Input *) SCM_CDR (s);
   else
 return 0;
}

And that's where I get stuck. This function looks like it somehow
munges a Scheme pair or list, so I tried to access it through
(car location)
but that didn't work.

Oh, that's bloody entrails you are dealing with here, the raw C++ code
used for implementing a Scheme type.  You don't want to go there.  Not
even the C++ code wants to go there more than once.


Which isn't surprising because the original (write) would have printed
something like (location "...") if it were a list, isn't it?

#<...> basically means "Uh, I have no way of printing this primitive
type in a way that could be read back in, but here is some information
anyway."

The naming consistency for input locations and their related Scheme and
C++ types and print results is actually screwed up much more than any
other type I can think of.  It was probably implemented before Jan and
Han-Wen figured out how to do things systematically.

You won't learn anything useful from _this_ code.

What are you trying to achieve?



I want to write a function \annotate that (among other things) does
- use the location to write out annotation lists to auxiliary files, for 
this I need the separate parts of the location
- print a message to the console like ly:input-message, but without 
quoting what is in the input file at the location.


I'm quite sure Jan-Peter's answer will keep me going (until the next 
obstacle arrives ...)


Thanks
Urs

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Re: Get context in Scheme function (determining current moment)

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Hi,
>
> when I'm trying to determine the the position in a piece when inside a
> music function I think I have to use either
> ly:context-current-moment
> or
> ly:context-now

That's stupid: they do the same thing.  Why do we have the same function
twice?

> Both functions take a 'context' as argument, but I don't see where
> this should be taken from.
>
> so
> a)
> how do I get a current context from when inside a Scheme function?

That one's easy: there first _has_ to be a current context.  Contexts
are only created when a music expression is getting iterated.  So you
need to have your Scheme function called during iteration.  The easiest
way to do this is to use \applyMusic.

It will be called for every iteration of a score, so if you are doing
midi, you'll get it called there as well.

> and
> b)
> how would I proceed to determine the position in a score when the
> Scheme function is called?

Seems like it would do that.

Again: what are you trying to do?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: type of "location" argument

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 04.12.2013 15:00, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:
>> Am 04.12.2013 14:58, schrieb Urs Liska:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> next helpless question: what Scheme type is the "location" argument used
>>> for Scheme functions?
>>> (write)ing location gives
>> Hi, its:
>> ly:input-location?
>>
>> HTH
> Unfortunately not (TH).

Wanna bet?

> This is what redirects me to
>
> Input *
> unsmob_input (SCM s)
> {
>   if (SCM_IMP (s))
> return 0;
>   if (SCM_CAR (s) == (SCM)input_tag) // ugh.
> return (Input *) SCM_CDR (s);
>   else
> return 0;
> }
>
> And that's where I get stuck. This function looks like it somehow
> munges a Scheme pair or list, so I tried to access it through
> (car location)
> but that didn't work.

Oh, that's bloody entrails you are dealing with here, the raw C++ code
used for implementing a Scheme type.  You don't want to go there.  Not
even the C++ code wants to go there more than once.

> Which isn't surprising because the original (write) would have printed
> something like (location "...") if it were a list, isn't it?

#<...> basically means "Uh, I have no way of printing this primitive
type in a way that could be read back in, but here is some information
anyway."

The naming consistency for input locations and their related Scheme and
C++ types and print results is actually screwed up much more than any
other type I can think of.  It was probably implemented before Jan and
Han-Wen figured out how to do things systematically.

You won't learn anything useful from _this_ code.

What are you trying to achieve?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: type of "location" argument

[Jan-Peter Voigt]

Am 04.12.2013 15:04, schrieb Urs Liska:
>> Hi, its:
>> ly:input-location?
>>
>> HTH
> Unfortunately not (TH).
> This is what redirects me to
> 
> Input *
> unsmob_input (SCM s)
> {
>   if (SCM_IMP (s))
> return 0;
>   if (SCM_CAR (s) == (SCM)input_tag) // ugh.
> return (Input *) SCM_CDR (s);
>   else
> return 0;
> }
> 
> And that's where I get stuck. This function looks like it somehow munges
> a Scheme pair or list, so I tried to access it through
> (car location)
> but that didn't work. Which isn't surprising because the original
> (write) would have printed something like (location "...") if it were a
> list, isn't it?
What are you trying to do? If you want to pass a location to a
music(scheme/void)-function, it looks like:

%%%
\version "2.17.96"

% save the current location
saveLocation =
#(define-void-function (parser location name)(symbol?)
   (ly:parser-define! parser name location))

% show the file path of the given location
showFile =
#(define-void-function (parser location loc)(ly:input-location?)
   (ly:message "file '~A'" (car (ly:input-file-line-char-column location

% save location
\saveLocation hier
% show file name
\showFile \hier
%%%

The showFile function takes a ly:input-location as argument.

Or is it something else, you are going to do?



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Get context in Scheme function (determining current moment)

[Urs Liska]

Hi,

when I'm trying to determine the the position in a piece when inside a 
music function I think I have to use either

ly:context-current-moment
or
ly:context-now

Both functions take a 'context' as argument, but I don't see where this 
should be taken from.


so
a)
how do I get a current context from when inside a Scheme function?
and
b)
how would I proceed to determine the position in a score when the Scheme 
function is called?


I don't know if I need a) for b) but wanted to ask for it anyway.

Best
Urs

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Re: type of "location" argument

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 15:00, schrieb Jan-Peter Voigt:

Am 04.12.2013 14:58, schrieb Urs Liska:

Hi,

next helpless question: what Scheme type is the "location" argument used
for Scheme functions?
(write)ing location gives

Hi, its:
ly:input-location?

HTH

Unfortunately not (TH).
This is what redirects me to

Input *
unsmob_input (SCM s)
{
  if (SCM_IMP (s))
return 0;
  if (SCM_CAR (s) == (SCM)input_tag) // ugh.
return (Input *) SCM_CDR (s);
  else
return 0;
}

And that's where I get stuck. This function looks like it somehow munges 
a Scheme pair or list, so I tried to access it through

(car location)
but that didn't work. Which isn't surprising because the original 
(write) would have printed something like (location "...") if it were a 
list, isn't it?


Urs

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Re: type of "location" argument

[Jan-Peter Voigt]

Am 04.12.2013 14:58, schrieb Urs Liska:
> Hi,
> 
> next helpless question: what Scheme type is the "location" argument used
> for Scheme functions?
> (write)ing location gives
Hi, its:
ly:input-location?

HTH

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type of "location" argument

[Urs Liska]

Hi,

next helpless question: what Scheme type is the "location" argument used 
for Scheme functions?

(write)ing location gives

#/home/uliska/git/openLilyLib/snippets/editorial-tools/annotate/examples.ly:29:3>



While I didn't find anything about the "#<" combination in Scheme in 
general I have the impression that is an object of some kind.
Looking for the definition of ly:input-message I was lead to 
unsmob_input in input-smob.cc - but that doesn't help me any further to 
understand what's going on (I can read C++ like I can read a Spanish 
newspaper based on my knowledge of French and (partially) Italian).



How can I access the items in this location individually, at least the 
string, better the file, line and cursor position independently?
And how could I create something like ly:input-message, but without 
quoting the respective input?



I would like to create a clickable input message, but in the context of 
a series of information, so the output of the code context lines should 
be avoided.



Thanks
Urs


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New "ancient" music font available, but not for us

[Urs Liska]

http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/leipzig-urtext-fonts-now-available-from-fontshop/

I like these fonts, but do you agree with me that the second example 
partially spoils the impression through too regular spacing? I would 
love to see the same typeset through LilyPond ...


One more point for the wish (I know that's difficult) to be able to use 
arbitrary fonts with LilyPond ...


Urs
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Inconsistent behavior with additional staves?

[Lovis Suchmann]

Hello everyone,

first: I'm new on this mailing list, so I hope I'm on the right place 
for my question:


today when working with LilyPond, I noticed some strange behaviour with 
additional staves. Have a look at the LilyPond code below. When 
interpreting this, the staves named "eigth" and "sixteenth" do not end 
after the end of the note but contine futher on. The staves named 
"full", "half" and "quarter" end after the end of the note as expected. 
I think you will be able to reproduce this behavior, i checked it with 
LilyPond 2.16 and 2.17.95. This inconsistency also happens in a slightly 
different manner when changing "\context" to "\new". I cannot see this 
is intended, so is it a bug?


(If someone is not able to reproduce what I'm talking about, please tell 
me...)


Thank you in advance :)

Lovis

[Lilypond Source Code below]
-

\version "2.17.95"

\new Staff = "main" {

c''1 |

<<

\context Staff = "full" { c'1 }

\context Staff = "half" { c'2 }

\context Staff = "quarter" { c'4 }

\context Staff = "eigth" { c'8 }

\context Staff = "sixteenth" { c'16}

>> |

c''1 |

<<

\context Staff = "full" { c'1 }

\context Staff = "half" { c'2 }

\context Staff = "quarter" { c'4 }

\context Staff = "eigth" { c'8 }

\context Staff = "sixteenth" { c'16}

>> |

c''1 |

<<

\context Staff = "full" { c'1 }

\context Staff = "half" { c'2 }

\context Staff = "quarter" { c'4 }

\context Staff = "eigth" { c'8 }

\context Staff = "sixteenth" { c'16}

>> |

c''1 |

}



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Re: promoting LilyPond

[Joseph Rushton Wakeling]

On 04/12/13 11:18, David Kastrup wrote:

It's not really a discussion: I am just reiterating points already made
a lot of times with regard to Free Software.  Corporate parents can
easily become a liability rather than an asset, and when that happens,
you are powerless as a user.


Yes, I'm very familiar with those arguments, and in the general sense I strongly 
agree with them.  It's just that in practice, based on experience, I find that 
the weight others will give to those arguments tend to vary a great deal based 
on context.  So, if you're trying to promote your software solution to other 
people, you need to tailor the message with that in mind.


For example, the risk of your software ceasing to be maintained or developed is 
often (for good reason) not seen as a high risk by users of major proprietary 
software tools.  The risk of a business decision being taken that undermines the 
software's usefulness is taken much more seriously, but even then that risk gets 
offset against costs of migration, and the perceived maintainability of 
alternatives.  In that context having a corporate body to deal with is generally 
considered a major plus (and a volunteer community, often something of a 
negative) regardless of the licensing situation, because it generally attests to 
the economic sustainability of the software in question.


So I'm not disagreeing with you or the general free software philosophy, I'm 
just pointing out that -- like free-as-in-beer -- not all of these benefits are 
necessarily perceived as such by prospective users.  And I think one particular 
point you raised fits that bill.



So we need to get LilyPond into the shape where an average programmer
caring about mongolic double flute music can do what is needed to let
LilyPond support it nicely without too many unexpected road blocks.


Yes.  Generally speaking whenever I consider some development idea in Lilypond, 
I quickly come up against the realization that the investment of time required 
just to work out how to _start_ doing it is extremely large, and doesn't bring 
with it a lot of transferable knowledge.  So, it's difficult to justify putting 
that effort in compared to (say) providing an overview of what I want and 
offering a bounty.



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Re: promoting LilyPond

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 04.12.2013 11:18, schrieb David Kastrup:
>> We're not there yet.  LilyPond is more a humongous blob of an
>> application rather than a music typesetting_platform_, like Emacs is an
>> easily extended editing platform.
>>
>
> Of course this would be a beautiful idea. And it's of course very good
> to work into that direction as we (and particularly you) do.
> But would you really think it is possible (actually, not
> theroretically) to reach such a state? Maybe "Framework" would be a
> nice label too.

Oh, it's not a realistic goal to set.  It never was a goal for Emacs to
become a "platform".  It's just more or less a consequence if you have
to serve a lot of different and possibly temporary interests very well
while trying to keep the code base from becoming unmaintainable.

"Platform" basically implies that the code base needs to get divided
along similar lines as the interest of the community and the various
applications.

The alternatives are staying single-purpose (where "single" is not
literal but implies a small number), or becoming unmaintainable.

We'll see where LilyPond will end up.  But it's not really a goal you
can set yourself, it's more or less _how_ you go about reaching the
goals that you actually _do_ set yourself.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: promoting LilyPond

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 11:18, schrieb David Kastrup:

We're not there yet.  LilyPond is more a humongous blob of an
application rather than a music typesetting_platform_, like Emacs is an
easily extended editing platform.



Of course this would be a beautiful idea. And it's of course very good 
to work into that direction as we (and particularly you) do.
But would you really think it is possible (actually, not theroretically) 
to reach such a state? Maybe "Framework" would be a nice label too.


Urs

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Re: promoting LilyPond

[David Kastrup]

Joseph Rushton Wakeling  writes:

> On 04/12/13 10:33, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Uh, the original developers of Sibelius made Avid an offer for buying
>> Sibelius back.  The offer was turned down.
>
> Happy to have this discussion if you want it, but I think it's getting
> away from the point I wanted to make.

It's not really a discussion: I am just reiterating points already made
a lot of times with regard to Free Software.  Corporate parents can
easily become a liability rather than an asset, and when that happens,
you are powerless as a user.

If you take a look at serious general-purpose programmers' editing
environments, the market is more or less Eclipse, Emacs, vi clones
(mostly vim).

Open Source and/or Free Software.  "general-purpose" "programmers'" are
the buzz phrases where an open community really pays off for a product.
"general-purpose" since it serves and is served back a larger variety of
applications than the original developers imagined and/or could hope to
care for, "programmers'" because those are in the situation to indeed
contribute back.

So we need to get LilyPond into the shape where an average programmer
caring about mongolic double flute music can do what is needed to let
LilyPond support it nicely without too many unexpected road blocks.

We're not there yet.  LilyPond is more a humongous blob of an
application rather than a music typesetting _platform_, like Emacs is an
easily extended editing platform.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: promoting LilyPond

[Joseph Rushton Wakeling]

On 04/12/13 10:33, David Kastrup wrote:

Uh, the original developers of Sibelius made Avid an offer for buying
Sibelius back.  The offer was turned down.


Happy to have this discussion if you want it, but I think it's getting away from 
the point I wanted to make.


It's simply that I don't see the risk of proprietary software stopping being 
maintained or developed as one that is appealing to many current Finale/Sibelius 
users.  The risk of the software being sold to an irresponsible or greedy 
investor, or the risk of development being messed around with for commercial 
reasons, is a different risk (and an argument that IMO carries much more weight).


I understand that we may have simply been talking about the same thing in 
different words, though.


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Re: ly:context-mod? list to string

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Ah, I'd already grepped the git repo in the past, but didn't see it as
> a standard means when looking up usage information. Thanks.

Well, in doubt the documentation string is relevant, but you have to
find it first.  "git grep" has the main advantage of being really fast.

When I know some half-answer, I usually git-grep with parts of it, see
where it can be found in the documentation, look for some context there,
feed it into a web search engine and cite the result in answers.

Alternatively, I use C-h i in Emacs and then the index for LilyPond's
documentation (which is rather good, and Emacs searches the LilyPond
doc's and follows index entries with autocompletion again basically
instantaneously).  And then I pick context, search in the HTML and so
on.

It's perhaps a bit of a letdown that a flat git-grep at the start often
leads to results faster than a hierarchical search, but then with
git-grep you know where to go in the hierarchy without having to
backtrack.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: promoting LilyPond

[David Kastrup]

Joseph Rushton Wakeling  writes:

> Yes, the processes of contribution-based free software "break" in
> different ways to the processes of commercial proprietary software --
> there are different risks and different benefits.  But the fact is,
> someone using Sibelius now does not have to worry about the product
> being discontinued.  Even if Avid decided to discontinue the product,
> its userbase, brand value and commercial viability would mean that
> someone would step in to buy it.

Uh, the original developers of Sibelius made Avid an offer for buying
Sibelius back.  The offer was turned down.

The situation you are talking of is that of a complete discontinuation
of every developer continuity: what "someone" would be buying would be a
final dump, not a project in development.  Even porting to a different
platform will be difficult.

Betting on Sibelius is nowhere like betting on Microsoft Office on
Windows (which feels more like betting on a race track than on a horse
since if it goes down, it will change how races are done).  It's already
a bouncing ball.

> By contrast, I do worry about what happens to Lilypond if for example
> you find yourself indisposed.  I think we can all agree it would be a
> severe blow. :-)

It would be a blow for its progress but not for its existence.  I fancy
myself to believe that I make a difference regarding where the
equilibrium between maintainability, usability, bit rot, user
experience, releasability and a few other things lies (or rather where
it gravitates quite slowly).

Without me, the equilibrium would likely move differently.  But
hopefully we are nowhere near the state that me quitting would lead to
an unstable situation.

And I have been cited as a reason that scares off new developers, so it
would appear the vacuum would be filled by such new developers stepping
in, and it's to be hoped that they'd be interested enough in maintaining
stability and usability that they'd take care not to go off the deep
end.

Let's not forget that Han-Wen and Jan are basically indisposed (though
available for reference) for most purposes, and that would appear to
have been quite a larger blow that LilyPond got over reasonably well.

Not to mention that Graham left, and it's hard to estimate what the
ultimate cost of that will be, particularly regarding community building
and maintaining.  A good technical lead can't make up for everything:
that's another shift in the equilibrium that happened in the recent
past.

What I am saying is that LilyPond survived a lot, and it survived this
with a reasonable amount of continuity.  A _sale_ of a software without
accompanying infrastructure is not the same.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Denemo-feedback

[Richard Shann]

On Wed, 2013-12-04 at 08:23 +0100, Johan Vromans wrote:
> Richard Shann  writes:
> 
> > Right now I have a new entry option nearly complete - playing on a MIDI
> > keyboard and then entering the rhythm.
> 
> By hitting a MIDI keyboard key in the desired rhythm?

Well, that is what is interesting: if you played in on a MIDI keyboard
in perfect rhythm then you would be able to hit the "accept" key to
accept the rhythm Denemo has computed. Indeed, if it was going to be
perfect, you wouldn't need any second step, you could just go straight
on to adding non-music features - repeat bar lines, rehearsal marks or
WHY.
What happens in practice is that the rhythm computed from your playing
is full of "errors" and an artificial intelligence (AI) step is needed
to get close to something that would be acceptable. (It has to be near
perfect to make it worth giving to the user to check over, as fixing
mistakes is far more costly than playing in the music).

At the moment this AI step is the simplest possible, it goes through the
durations that you played assigning them to the nearest note lengths
using only whole-note 1/256th note and dotted versions of them (no
triplet values have been entered in the table of durations).

There are then two ways to go:

Write some Scheme procedures to work out what the user likely
wants, asking for the user to intervene where necessary

Let the user start typing in the actual durations (on the
numeric keypad) and "learn" from the first few what the likely
durations of the succeeding notes are. So, once you have covered
the rhythmic variety that you have in the passage, you would be
able to go over to just hitting Return to accept Denemo's idea
of the rhythm. This could include stuff like staccato markings,
so that once you had shown it what you mean by a certain
duration it could guess between say, a quarter note, a staccato
quarter note and an eighth note followed by eighth note rest.

At the moment, you can type in the duration on the numeric keypad or hit
Return to accept the suggested duration. The note is played as you do
this, so you can actually hear the piece as you go through it if you
keep time. You have to enter rests, staccato markings etc. yourself.

I will need to gain more experience of this system before deciding where
to go next. The stuff is in Denemo's git now though, if folk like to
experiment. The table of durations and the decision calculation using it
is not currently available to Scheme, but if someone with Scheme wants
to start experimenting it could be made available without problem, just
ask.

The system also works with imported MIDI files, which can have perfect
rhythm if machine generated.

Richard




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Re: ly:context-mod? list to string

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 07:46, schrieb David Kastrup:

Urs Liska  writes:


Thanks for pointing this out.
with "write" I indeed see what I want to.

But when I try to pass that to a ly:message I'll get

Wrong type argument in position 1 (expecting string): ("critical-remark")

ly:message expects a string.  You are passing it a list.  That its first
element is a string does not change that.

The documentation says:
LY_DEFINE (ly_message, "ly:message",
1, 0, 1, (SCM str, SCM rest),
"A Scheme callable function to issue the message @var{str}."
"  The message is formatted with @code{format} and @var{rest}.")

So you need a format string here.

You can write (ly:message "~s\n" your-variable) here and get what you
want output in Scheme form.  If you don't want strings to be quoted, use
~a instead.


Thanks again. Now I see that this actually is what you already referred 
you in your previous email.





Still driving me crazy all this ...

+1

You know you are agreeing with yourself?


Yes.
I wanted to express my frustration about the fact that yesterday I 
thought I'd understood the issue and this morning - after changing a 
tiny bit - I'm as dumb as before. ;-)



When in doubt, use
git grep
on the LilyPond code base to find usage examples for functions.  I see

dak@lola:/usr/local/tmp/lilypond$ git grep ly:message
Documentation/contributor/programming-work.itexi:@tab @code{(ly:message msg args
input/regression/loglevels.ly:#(ly:message "Test message\n")
lily/warn-scheme.cc:LY_DEFINE (ly_message, "ly:message",
po/zh_TW.po:#. (ly:message (_ "Converting to `~a'...")
scm/backend-library.scm:(ly:message (_ "Converting to `~a'...\n") pdf-name)
scm/backend-library.scm:(ly:message (_ "Converting to ~a...") "PNG")
scm/backend-library.scm:  (ly:message (_ "Writing header field `~a' to `~a'...")
scm/documentation-lib.scm:  (ly:message (_ "Writing ~S...") x))
scm/framework-eps.scm: (ly:message (_ "Writing ~
scm/framework-svg.scm:(ly:message (_ "Updating font into: ~a") u
scm/graphviz.scm:(ly:message (format #f (_ "Writing graph `~a'...") (port-fi
scm/lily.scm:(else (ly:message ""
scm/lily.scm:(ly:message
scm/lily.scm:(ly:message
scm/lily.scm:(ly:message (_ "Redirecting output to ~a...") log-name)
scm/lily.scm:(ly:message "# -*-compilation-*-"))
scm/lily.scm:(ly:message (_ "Invoking `~a'...\n") cmd)
scm/music-functions.scm:(apply ly:message msg rest
scm/safe-lily.scm:   ly:message
scm/song.scm:  (ly:message "Writing Festival XML file ~a..." filename)
scm/song.scm:(apply ly:message message (map pp args
scm/stencil.scm:  (ly:message "Writing ~a" outname)

anf there are a few examples fitting your use case.



Ah, I'd already grepped the git repo in the past, but didn't see it as a 
standard means when looking up usage information. Thanks.


Urs


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Re: promoting LilyPond

[Joseph Rushton Wakeling]

On 03/12/13 22:47, David Kastrup wrote:

You are aware that the Sibelius development team has been laid off due
to financial problems of their parent company in spite of Sibelius
having a paying market and turning a profit?


Yes, fully.  But there is still _a_ Sibelius development team, there is still 
commercial support and maintenance available, etc. etc.  The worries are 
obvious, but only time will tell how damaging this really is to the software.



Well, you can't lay them off, and you can't prohibit them from
continuing to work on their software like the original authors of
Sibelius who have no right to do anything with the sources written by
themselves any more.

And you can't prohibit anybody else from working on LilyPond in order to
meet a company's needs.


You should not take my words as an endorsement of non-free software, merely a 
recognition of the factors that many users take into account.  Whether or not we 
like it, there is a general perception that commercially-backed software 
(whatever the licence) is in general more viable and future-proof than 
volunteer-driven efforts.


Yes, the processes of contribution-based free software "break" in different ways 
to the processes of commercial proprietary software -- there are different risks 
and different benefits.  But the fact is, someone using Sibelius now does not 
have to worry about the product being discontinued.  Even if Avid decided to 
discontinue the product, its userbase, brand value and commercial viability 
would mean that someone would step in to buy it.


By contrast, I do worry about what happens to Lilypond if for example you find 
yourself indisposed.  I think we can all agree it would be a severe blow. :-)



No question about that.  I think a necessary step would be to move to
GUILE2 first because the costs and tradeoffs of refactoring stuff
between C++ and Scheme will be different, so this is more or less a
prerequisite to make decisions and be able to factor in their costs.


Makes sense to me.


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