Re: Problems with LilyJAZZ.ily

[Urs Liska]

Am 10.12.2013 00:49, schrieb Janek Warcho?:

2013/12/8 David Kastrup :

"Shall be" does not state when.  It's certainly not a replacement for a
formal submission.  If someone finds a way to get hold of the author and
get him to place the thing in some public place with a clear license
statement, it would not get lost in case he becomes harder to reach.

The problem is that he had already become harder to reach.
Anyway, i think it would be a good idea to try to contact him using
other means - telephone, other email?
But this should be done by someone speaking German.  For example, i
found this 
http://telefonbuch-suche.com/torsten-h%C3%A4mmerle-kleinschmidtstra%C3%9Fe-69115-heidelberg
but i'm not sure if it could be of actual use because i don't
understand German and thus don't understand the full context :-/

Janek

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I'll give that a try.
But it's of course not sure that this actually points at the right place ...
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Re: lilypond.org "Pondings"

[Urs Liska]

Am 10.12.2013 04:01, schrieb Paul Morris:

Urs Liska wrote

Step out of the dark and tell the world what we do!

I use LilyPond for alternative music notation systems like Clairnote:
http://clairnote.org/
http://clairnote.org/sheet-music/

and TwinNote (which was my previous focus):
http://clairnote.org/twinnote/
http://clairnote.org/twinnote/sheet-music/

I don't know if this qualifies for a ponding since it is a marginal use case
and I suppose there's a rationale for keeping the focus on more
mainstream/established uses.  On the other hand, it does illustrate the
great flexibility and extensibility of LilyPond.

-Paul




I wouldn't want to decide this, but both should surely qualify for a 
link on the "What people did" gallery on the website.


Urs

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Anthonys Lists  writes:

> Likewise, I have no trouble using lilypond's *P*D*F* manuals. My mind
> is very text-oriented. But I HATE HYPERTEXT. My IQ is off the scale
> (not really, but I'm in the top few percent of the population), but
> give me a web-site and if what I'm looking for is not staring me in
> the face, then I have difficulty finding it.

How do you get along with the documentation in Info format and TeX as
its info reader?

I'm interested because that's

a) hypertext
b) what I use predominantly
c) and I hate HTML documentation

but it features fast indexing, flat searches and instant response.  And
I get along very well with it, certainly better than with PDF.  Which
makes me suspect that it's not as much the "hypertext" aspect but rather
the typical browser representation and nabigation and speed that gets in
my way.

> So you can NOT conclude that a "reasonably intelligent" visitor will
> be able to find what they're looking for.

My usual way for handing out manual links is to first find them in Info
with Emacs (usually using the i command with specific keywords), then
use a search engine on key phrases in the right chapter for digging up
the web links.

> I'm "extremely intelligent" and I have difficulty. And I doubt I'm
> alone ...

See above.  But it's not "hypertext" per se but HTML and its browser
universe for me.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: lilypond.org "Pondings"

[Mike Solomon]

On Dec 10, 2013, at 12:20 AM, Janek Warchoł  wrote:

> 2013/12/7 Urs Liska :
>> Mike, are you still "responsible" for this or how will new Pondings be
>> included?
> 
> Pondings can be added by anyone who has push access (and if someone
> without it makes a patch, having it pushed by someone should be a
> no-brainer).  David is adding one now:
> http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3712 and i think it
> would be generally good if everyone felt responsible for pondings.
> 
> It would be nice to drop three sentences in the CG about pondings
> (probably in chapter about website).
> I'd do it myself, but i already have too much to do :/
> 
> best,
> Janek

There probably should be an easier way to submit these things, as it is truly a 
no-brainer.
The only difficult step is substituting all special characters with HTML codes, 
which is doable on a number of conversion sites.

Cheers,
MS
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Re: lilypond.org "Pondings"

[Paul Morris]

Urs Liska wrote
> Step out of the dark and tell the world what we do!

I use LilyPond for alternative music notation systems like Clairnote:
http://clairnote.org/
http://clairnote.org/sheet-music/

and TwinNote (which was my previous focus):
http://clairnote.org/twinnote/
http://clairnote.org/twinnote/sheet-music/

I don't know if this qualifies for a ponding since it is a marginal use case
and I suppose there's a rationale for keeping the focus on more
mainstream/established uses.  On the other hand, it does illustrate the
great flexibility and extensibility of LilyPond.

-Paul



--
View this message in context: 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/lilypond-org-Pondings-tp155249p155468.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: still no ultimate way to create three-staff piano layout

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi all,

> I think this is a paradoxical situation:
> if a staff (group) is removed then the vertical spacing of the staff group
> above is applied

This isn’t “paradoxical”; it’s a lack in the spacing algorithm/.parameters, one 
which has irritated me for a long time.
There should be a way to set pre-system/pre-staff spacing, not just post-.

Regards,
Kieren.
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Re: Problems with LilyJAZZ.ily

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/8 David Kastrup :
> "Shall be" does not state when.  It's certainly not a replacement for a
> formal submission.  If someone finds a way to get hold of the author and
> get him to place the thing in some public place with a clear license
> statement, it would not get lost in case he becomes harder to reach.

The problem is that he had already become harder to reach.
Anyway, i think it would be a good idea to try to contact him using
other means - telephone, other email?
But this should be done by someone speaking German.  For example, i
found this 
http://telefonbuch-suche.com/torsten-h%C3%A4mmerle-kleinschmidtstra%C3%9Fe-69115-heidelberg
but i'm not sure if it could be of actual use because i don't
understand German and thus don't understand the full context :-/

Janek

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Re: promoting LilyPond

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/6 Johan Vromans :
> "Trevor Daniels"  writes:
>
>> A real example using a template which
>> provides an SATB choir on two staves with lyrics between them and
>> a piano staff with accompaniment is attached.
>
> I've been using a similar approach for SLHML choir, with a skeleton
> template (attached). I haven't been able to add this to LSR since it's
> not a snippet file, but a package of associated files.

Now, this is *exactly* one of the reasons why i have a beef with
current LSR design[1], and why i insisted on creating
openlilylib/snippets repository.

Johan, feel invited to contribute it to https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets

best,
Janek

[1] i don't mean to say that LSR is wrong and unneeded!  LSR is
awesome, but we need something more awesome :-)

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Re: promoting LilyPond

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/6 Trevor Daniels :
>
> Janek Warchoł wrote Thursday, December 05, 2013 11:29 PM
>
>> 2013/12/6 Trevor Daniels :
>>>
>>> A simpler approach would be to embed templates into LP so that they
>>> could just be invoked.  The template would provide the context structure
>>> of a particular type of score, and also define the variables needed.
>>
>> I very much like it!
>>
>> Could you add it to
>> https://github.com/openlilylib/snippets/tree/master/templates
>
> I could, but I'll need to annotate them first.  And as I said above,
> a pair of \include'd files are needed, one at the top and one at the
> bottom - the user code goes in-between the two.

I saw Trevor's snippet and it's really nice!  Now i'm waiting for the
pull request :)

best,
Janek

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Re: adding engravers

[Noeck]

Hi David,

> I don't like exceptions.

I understand, me neither. But to me the current way looks like an
exception (until the user understands the details). I attached a small
list what users struggle with, whom I help to use LP*.

>> I know that your are reluctant towards such changes and mostly for
>> good reasons. In this case the explanation didn't convince me fully so
>> far.
> 
> Shrug.  The proposed syntax also does not work all that well with Scheme
> engravers.

It's not about my syntax, it's about ease of use for inexperienced
users. I won't propose another syntax. My question was more like: if you
(who knows the details) see a way of simplifying this for the user, I
would welcome it.

Cheers,
Joram


* Here is the list (real life, incomplete and unordered), not with the
intend that this has to be changed, just to give an impression what
"exception" means for non-programmers (in most cases I know the reason
and try to teach it, but that is a complete new universe for most
musicians):

- what does " mean? sometimes enclosing in "" is needed sometimes not
- sometimes # before the value is needed sometimes not
- sometimes it's Staff sometimes \Staff
- most commands start with \ arguments not, but it is not: \key d major
- mostly spaces do not matter, but sometimes text} is bad
- what is this tagline I didn't call for?
- \transpose c d \relative {…} is ok, but \relative \transpose c d {…} not

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Re: lilypond.org "Pondings"

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/7 Urs Liska :
> Mike, are you still "responsible" for this or how will new Pondings be
> included?

Pondings can be added by anyone who has push access (and if someone
without it makes a patch, having it pushed by someone should be a
no-brainer).  David is adding one now:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3712 and i think it
would be generally good if everyone felt responsible for pondings.

It would be nice to drop three sentences in the CG about pondings
(probably in chapter about website).
I'd do it myself, but i already have too much to do :/

best,
Janek

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Anthonys Lists]

On 09/12/2013 06:12, James Harkins wrote:
My flippant response makes it sound like any reasonably intelligent 
person would find the right information fairly quickly, casting the 
problem in terms of user carelessness. That was a misstatement. My 
point is that reasonably intelligent, reasonably careful readers can 
visit lilypond.org and get from it no strong feeling for the 
importance of downloading a dedicated editor *in addition to* LilyPond 
itself.


Don't forget, also, that PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT. Off-topic slightly, but 
read Feynmann on keeping time in your head. The task was "count from 1 
to 60 in your head and keep consistent time". MOST people can do that 
while watching TV, come in bang on time, and answer questions on what 
they have seen. MOST people, if you hold a conversation with them, 
either they ignore you or their time-keeping goes to pot. Feynmann was 
surprised that some of his fellow students could hold a conversation no 
problem - but watching TV trashed their time-keeping!


Turns out MOST people count in their head using "silent talking". Make 
them talk, and they can't keep time. But SOME people watch a 
ticker-tape, and have no trouble talking. Disrupt their visual sense, 
however, and they're in trouble...


I answer a lot of questions on the SuperCollider mailing list -- a LOT 
of questions. Often the answers involve "See * in the 
documentation." At some points, I would get frustrated with this... 
"Why can't people find this information? Aren't they reading the help 
pages?" Then I realized, it's not that it all -- it's just that there 
are so many help pages that nobody can get intimately familiar with 
them quickly. I have something like a 10 year head start over new SC 
users in that regard. That's a valuable resource on my part, but not a 
failing on their part. 


Are the manual pages in a suitable format? I HATE Word, because its 
mental map is not mine. On the other hand, I switched to WordPerfect no 
trouble - it has a different mental map that meshes with mine almost 
perfectly. The more WP tries to ape Word, the harder it becomes for me 
to use it.


Likewise, I have no trouble using lilypond's *P*D*F* manuals. My mind is 
very text-oriented. But I HATE HYPERTEXT. My IQ is off the scale (not 
really, but I'm in the top few percent of the population), but give me a 
web-site and if what I'm looking for is not staring me in the face, then 
I have difficulty finding it.


So you can NOT conclude that a "reasonably intelligent" visitor will be  
able to find what they're looking for. I'm "extremely intelligent" and I 
have difficulty. And I doubt I'm alone ...


Cheers,
Wol
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Re: man pages refer to older version in title

[Federico Bruni]

2013/12/9 Scott Miller 

> I am not sure if this is due to being in development, but I wanted to send
> a note that the man pages for lilypond, musicxml2ly and such for 2.17.x
> have version 2.14.2 in the title text of the man page doc.
>

the man pages are part of your distro lilypond package
$ apt-cache policy lilypond

will return 2.14.2  in your case
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Re: man pages refer to older version in title

[Scott Miller]

Ah! Cancel. That appears to be from the Debian stable version of lilypond
on the system.

 :)
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Re: man pages refer to older version in title

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: Scott Miller

To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 9:16 PM
Subject: man pages refer to older version in title



I am not sure if this is due to being in development, but I wanted to
send a note that the man pages for lilypond, musicxml2ly and such
for 2.17.x have version 2.14.2 in the title text of the man page doc.


I'm guessing the man pages need to be updated separately from the binary? 
The other docs certainly do.


--
Phil Holmes




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man pages refer to older version in title

[Scott Miller]

I am not sure if this is due to being in development, but I wanted to send
a note that the man pages for lilypond, musicxml2ly and such for 2.17.x
have version 2.14.2 in the title text of the man page doc.


(linux 64bit binary from lilypond.org)

$ lilypond --version
GNU LilyPond 2.17.97

Copyright (c) 1996--2012 by
  Han-Wen Nienhuys 
  Jan Nieuwenhuizen 
  and others.



$ man lilypond

LILYPOND(1)
User
Commands
LILYPOND(1)

NAME
   LilyPond - manual page for LilyPond 2.14.2





$ man musicxml2ly

MUSICXML2LY(1)
User
Commands
MUSICXML2LY(1)

NAME
   musicxml2ly - manual page for musicxml2ly (LilyPond) 2.14.2


[snip to bottom]

musicxml2ly (LilyPond)
2.14.2
February
2013
MUSICXML2LY(1)
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Re: adding engravers

[David Kastrup]

Noeck  writes:

>>> \layout {
>>>   \consists Staff.Ambitus_engraver
>>> }
>> 
>> That would only make any kind of sense if you could actually write
>> \consists Staff.Ambitus_engraver also in mid-music. 
>
> What is the connection? I would not expect this just because the
> syntax to \override is similar.

Well, I don't expect analogous use of equivalent functionality in
several situations to sometimes work, and sometimes not, and to have
people remember which will be the case when.

I don't like exceptions.

> I know that your are reluctant towards such changes and mostly for
> good reasons. In this case the explanation didn't convince me fully so
> far.

Shrug.  The proposed syntax also does not work all that well with Scheme
engravers.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: LilyPond editing environments

[Urs Liska]

Am 09.12.2013 18:19, schrieb Carl Peterson:

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Urs Liska  wrote:


Would a section "Online Tools" better be placed between the
"full-fledged" editors (Frescobaldi/Denemo) and "Text editors" or after the
"Text editors".

I think we could consider not only score editors but also tools like
- http://scalematcher.adamspiers.org/
or
- a tool for harmonic analysis someone announced just recently and which
I unfortunately don't find right now.

Urs


I think here you're starting to cross the line from editors/tools (things
that help you use and work with LilyPond) into more of a "Gallery" (things
that people have done with LilyPond). Scale Matcher is an interesting,
"This is what someone has done with LilyPond" (similar to "Pondings"). The
difference between it and Lilybin is that Lilybin is an online editing
environment that compiles whatever the user wants. Scale Matcher only does
one thing through a user interface.


To clarify on this point, I would separate "Gallery" items into a separate
page from anything related to installing/using LilyPond. This is fairly
normal and I would want to maintain a clear distinction between things that
let you work with LilyPond to do what *you* want, and things that either
(a) have no functional use (e.g., postings of LilyPond-engraved works), or
(b) are limited-scope utilities (such as Scale Matcher), particularly in
the latter case so that someone doesn't go to the site mistakenly thinking
they can use it to do x (in spite of clear disclaimers to the contrary).

Carl



Actually this is what I thought immediately after sending my message ;-)

I think the "Gallery" of
- concerts
- published scores
- things that have been done with LilyPond

also deserves a few thoughts ...

Urs

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Re: LilyPond editing environments

[Carl Peterson]

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Urs Liska  wrote:
>
>>
>> Would a section "Online Tools" better be placed between the
>> "full-fledged" editors (Frescobaldi/Denemo) and "Text editors" or after the
>> "Text editors".
>>
>> I think we could consider not only score editors but also tools like
>> - http://scalematcher.adamspiers.org/
>> or
>> - a tool for harmonic analysis someone announced just recently and which
>> I unfortunately don't find right now.
>>
>> Urs
>>
>
> I think here you're starting to cross the line from editors/tools (things
> that help you use and work with LilyPond) into more of a "Gallery" (things
> that people have done with LilyPond). Scale Matcher is an interesting,
> "This is what someone has done with LilyPond" (similar to "Pondings"). The
> difference between it and Lilybin is that Lilybin is an online editing
> environment that compiles whatever the user wants. Scale Matcher only does
> one thing through a user interface.
>

To clarify on this point, I would separate "Gallery" items into a separate
page from anything related to installing/using LilyPond. This is fairly
normal and I would want to maintain a clear distinction between things that
let you work with LilyPond to do what *you* want, and things that either
(a) have no functional use (e.g., postings of LilyPond-engraved works), or
(b) are limited-scope utilities (such as Scale Matcher), particularly in
the latter case so that someone doesn't go to the site mistakenly thinking
they can use it to do x (in spite of clear disclaimers to the contrary).

Carl
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Re: LilyPond editing environments

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/9 Urs Liska :
> Would a section "Online Tools" better be placed between the "full-fledged"
> editors (Frescobaldi/Denemo) and "Text editors" or after the "Text editors".

before "text editors" imo

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Re: LilyPond editing environments

[Carl Peterson]

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Urs Liska  wrote:

>
> Would a section "Online Tools" better be placed between the "full-fledged"
> editors (Frescobaldi/Denemo) and "Text editors" or after the "Text editors".
>
> I think we could consider not only score editors but also tools like
> - http://scalematcher.adamspiers.org/
> or
> - a tool for harmonic analysis someone announced just recently and which I
> unfortunately don't find right now.
>
> Urs
>

I think here you're starting to cross the line from editors/tools (things
that help you use and work with LilyPond) into more of a "Gallery" (things
that people have done with LilyPond). Scale Matcher is an interesting,
"This is what someone has done with LilyPond" (similar to "Pondings"). The
difference between it and Lilybin is that Lilybin is an online editing
environment that compiles whatever the user wants. Scale Matcher only does
one thing through a user interface.
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Re: LilyPond editing environments

[Urs Liska]

Am 09.12.2013 17:34, schrieb Janek Warchoł:

2013/12/9 Federico Bruni :

2013/12/9 Janek Warchoł 

Hard to say.  And I think there was some licensing problem with
Lilybin (it may not be fully free, and as GNU we cannot recommend
non-free programs).


I see MIT license here:
https://github.com/trevordixon/LilyBin/blob/master/LICENSE

Indeed, i couldn't find any information about problems in the mail
archives.  So i think it should be added - i think it's very nice, and
a terrific introduction to Lilypond!

J




Would a section "Online Tools" better be placed between the 
"full-fledged" editors (Frescobaldi/Denemo) and "Text editors" or after 
the "Text editors".


I think we could consider not only score editors but also tools like
- http://scalematcher.adamspiers.org/
or
- a tool for harmonic analysis someone announced just recently and which 
I unfortunately don't find right now.


Urs
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Re: adding engravers

[Noeck]

Hi David,

thanks for patiently answering my mail.

> like \music copying a music variable, \Staff copies a context
> definition.  The salient point is that this context definition contains
> a \name "Staff", so without overriding \name (which is perfectly
> feasible), the new definition will get stored back into \Staff again.

Ok, that's what happens internally. But do I have to care and understand
all that as a user? A user might want all his scores without bar
numbers. The recommended way is to remove the corresponding engraver.
That makes sense. Why does he have to know about \Staff and the
difference to Staff (as in \new Staff)?

If found
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/notation/defining-new-contexts
and I see that this is a powerful syntax. Still I think, the basic
functions of adding and removing engravers to/from their default context
could become easier for newbies (like me who uses LP only for 10 years
now) – in addition to the powerful syntax.

>> \layout {
>>   \consists Staff.Ambitus_engraver
>> }
> 
> That would only make any kind of sense if you could actually write
> \consists Staff.Ambitus_engraver also in mid-music. 

What is the connection? I would not expect this just because the syntax
to \override is similar.

I know that your are reluctant towards such changes and mostly for good
reasons. In this case the explanation didn't convince me fully so far.
But ok.

Cheers,
Joram

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Re: LilyPond editing environments

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/9 Federico Bruni :
> 2013/12/9 Janek Warchoł 
>>
>> Hard to say.  And I think there was some licensing problem with
>> Lilybin (it may not be fully free, and as GNU we cannot recommend
>> non-free programs).
>
>
> I see MIT license here:
> https://github.com/trevordixon/LilyBin/blob/master/LICENSE

Indeed, i couldn't find any information about problems in the mail
archives.  So i think it should be added - i think it's very nice, and
a terrific introduction to Lilypond!

J

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 15:56 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> Richard Shann  writes:
> 
> > I thought I would test out the binary that is on denemo.org and
> > downloaded it in a virtual machine running a vanilla Debian stable O/S,
> > the result: it will not even start. The executables ~/usr/bin/denemo and
> > ~/usr/bin/lilypond are present and have the right permissions but
> > attempting to execute them from the bash prompt results in a baffling
> > "No such file or directory" message:
> >
> >  ls -l denemo
> > -rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 1479840 Nov 25 23:00 denemo
> > rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./denemo
> > bash: ./denemo: No such file or directory
> > rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ 
> >
> > and then the same thing for lilypond:
> >
> > ls -l lilypond
> > -rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 4377128 Nov 25 23:00 lilypond
> > rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./lilypond
> > bash: ./lilypond: No such file or directory
> 
> That's typical if
> a) the file is an executable script
> b) it has a #! comment in its first characters
> c) the named executable in the #! comment does not exist

hmm, well they are Elf binary executables (I checked), and when I create
a small test script with a bad #! I get a much more helpful "bad
interpreter" error message when I try to execute it.

The scripts (as with LilyPond that do start #! /bin/sh) are in ~/bin and
they give the bizarre messages:

8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><
 denemo
/home/rshann/bin/denemo: 41: /home/rshann/bin/denemo: cannot create : Directory 
nonexistent
/home/rshann/bin/denemo: 45: /home/rshann/bin/denemo: 
/home/rshann/denemo/usr/bin/gtk-query-immodules-2.0: not found
/home/rshann/bin/denemo: 49: exec: /home/rshann/denemo/usr/bin/denemo: not found
8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><

These seem of a piece with the attempts to get the executables to launch
directly - it is as if the command line interpreter is not a normal
shell. I see that it is a link to /bin/dash and indeed running the
script using bash instead I get a different error message.

8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><
/bin/bash bin/denemo
bin/denemo: line 41: $GDK_PIXBUF_MODULE_FILE: ambiguous redirect
bin/denemo: line 49: /home/rshann/denemo/usr/bin/denemo: No such file or 
directory
8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><

I've never tried delving into this stuff before, as I assumed it was
just my development environment interfering with the normal user
experience.
> 
> >> Do you have any users actually having success with the binary package
> >> on Ubuntu?  If not, telling people that the "ancient" versions
> >> delivered with the system itself are not to be used is creating a
> >> rather large barrier of entry.
> >
> > As I say, I am told that it is a Ubuntu system that it gets tested on,
> > but if would help if we got more feedback from users. I occasionally
> > get visits from people with apple macs and the mac versions have
> > worked on their machines and I test windows versions on two or three
> > machines with various flavors of their o/ses. A GNU/Linux binary you
> > would have thought would be easier than either of those to get working
> > ...  (As I wrote this I recalled that I have a small partition with
> > Ubuntu 12.04 installed, I rebooted and went through the same process
> > as with Debian Stable and got the same, bizarre result). I think we
> > need to warn people that they may well need to built it :(
> 
> It may also help to put the binary directory into PATH proper, like with
> export PATH="$PATH:$HOME/denemo/usr/bin"
> (don't use ~/denomo/... since that does not work reliably.)

Putting the path to the denemo and lilypond executables still does not
make them execute from the command line:

8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><
/bin/which denemo
/home/rshann/denemo/usr/bin/denemo
rshann@DebianBox:~$ denemo
bash: /home/rshann/denemo/usr/bin/denemo: No such file or directory
8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><

this was done in my development environment, but now I'm fairly sure
that is not relevant. It appears to be the actual Elf executables that
cause the bizarre "No such file or directory" message, there is no
symbol "main" to stop them on, which would indicate that they are not
proper executables at all... some sort of trouble with the linker or
libtool I guess. But then why does it ever work (or do people quietly go
off and build from sources and not mention the problem?).

Richard




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Re: still no ultimate way to create three-staff piano layout

[Eluze]

karol wrote
> This doesn't solve the problem. Look at the example. In the first system
> spacing is proper, but in the second, distance between 'b' and 'd' is 9
> (should be 10.5).

I think this is a paradoxical situation:

if a staff (group) is removed then the vertical spacing of the staff group
above is applied

I'm sorry I can't even see a workaround - I'll report this issue to the bug
list.

Eluze





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Re: LilyPond editing environments

[Federico Bruni]

2013/12/9 Janek Warchoł 

> Hard to say.  And I think there was some licensing problem with
> Lilybin (it may not be fully free, and as GNU we cannot recommend
> non-free programs).
>

I see MIT license here:
https://github.com/trevordixon/LilyBin/blob/master/LICENSE
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann  writes:

> I thought I would test out the binary that is on denemo.org and
> downloaded it in a virtual machine running a vanilla Debian stable O/S,
> the result: it will not even start. The executables ~/usr/bin/denemo and
> ~/usr/bin/lilypond are present and have the right permissions but
> attempting to execute them from the bash prompt results in a baffling
> "No such file or directory" message:
>
>  ls -l denemo
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 1479840 Nov 25 23:00 denemo
> rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./denemo
> bash: ./denemo: No such file or directory
> rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ 
>
> and then the same thing for lilypond:
>
> ls -l lilypond
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 4377128 Nov 25 23:00 lilypond
> rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./lilypond
> bash: ./lilypond: No such file or directory

That's typical if
a) the file is an executable script
b) it has a #! comment in its first characters
c) the named executable in the #! comment does not exist

>> Do you have any users actually having success with the binary package
>> on Ubuntu?  If not, telling people that the "ancient" versions
>> delivered with the system itself are not to be used is creating a
>> rather large barrier of entry.
>
> As I say, I am told that it is a Ubuntu system that it gets tested on,
> but if would help if we got more feedback from users. I occasionally
> get visits from people with apple macs and the mac versions have
> worked on their machines and I test windows versions on two or three
> machines with various flavors of their o/ses. A GNU/Linux binary you
> would have thought would be easier than either of those to get working
> ...  (As I wrote this I recalled that I have a small partition with
> Ubuntu 12.04 installed, I rebooted and went through the same process
> as with Debian Stable and got the same, bizarre result). I think we
> need to warn people that they may well need to built it :(

It may also help to put the binary directory into PATH proper, like with
export PATH="$PATH:$HOME/denemo/usr/bin"
(don't use ~/denomo/... since that does not work reliably.)

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 14:15 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> Richard Shann  writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 11:51 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> >> David Kastrup  writes:
> >> 
> >> _Very_ frustrating and unusable.  Complains about missing libraries when
> >> starting but those are available in Ubuntu.

I missed this bit when I replied before. Remarkable that it does
actually start then, in fact, bizarre, this is not a static executable
but a dynamic one with a bunch of shared libraries bundled in (like
LilyPond, in fact, built with the same GUB machinery).


> >> 
> >> Opens what feels like dozens of overlapping windows you first need to
> >> cleanup.
> >
> > Yes, this has annoyed all ponders who have tried the latest Denemo. I
> > guess they will have to stay closed on the first run. (Once you close
> > them they stay closed if you quit cleanly). It will then be up to the
> > user to find the palettes in the View menu and start exploring them.
> >
> >>   Refuses to compile anything, stating in the print preview
> >
> > I wonder why - it works for some distros out of the box - otherwise you
> > have to give the path to LilyPond in Edit->Change Prefs->Externals
> 
> Nope.  Not even with an explicit path to either 2.19.0 or 2.16.2.  Just
> displays the following screen shot.
> 
> Also seems to have some memory managing problems: the fonts in the
> windows displayed "E" instead of "k".

This does indeed look like memory corruption - the other symptoms you
give are not like anything I have seen with Denemo running correctly
either.
I thought I would test out the binary that is on denemo.org and
downloaded it in a virtual machine running a vanilla Debian stable O/S,
the result: it will not even start. The executables ~/usr/bin/denemo and
~/usr/bin/lilypond are present and have the right permissions but
attempting to execute them from the bash prompt results in a baffling
"No such file or directory" message:

 ls -l denemo
-rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 1479840 Nov 25 23:00 denemo
rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./denemo
bash: ./denemo: No such file or directory
rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ 

and then the same thing for lilypond:

ls -l lilypond
-rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 4377128 Nov 25 23:00 lilypond
rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./lilypond
bash: ./lilypond: No such file or directory

This is something I've seen before and assumed was to do with my
development environment. I think it gets tested on Ubuntu distributions
before being uploaded, and certainly it seems to get a bit further on
your distro. I can only appeal to anyone with a GNU/Linux system to test
it out.

> 
> >> window that LilyPond can't compile stuff (there is a version of LilyPond
> >> in the path).  One can open the LilyPond source file window (looks like
> >> it should work in 2.19.0), but Denemo refuses to open the "LilyPond
> >> error" window.
> >
> > It does actually open the LilyPond Errors pane, but as Denemo is unable
> > to run LilyPond that is empty.
> > The LilyPond Errors item is not a separate window but a pane in the
> > LilyPond view, it would be better if the toggle for this lived in the
> > LilyPond window.
> 
> No, there is no LilyPond error view, not in a pane or otherwise.
> 
> > Well as this is a LilyPond output window with no LilyPond executable
> > found this is not by itself surprising. It should tell you (once only)
> > that it didn't find LilyPond.
> 
> It's a text in the window, and it does not change.
> 
> >> So much for the binary install.  I am not too enthused about the
> >> prospect of having to compile from source just to be able to test
> >> basic functionality and possibly get a better clue about the intended
> >> startup behavior.
> >
> > For folk with compilers, autotools and so on already installed
> > building from source is painless - it is not like running GUB. The
> > list of packages needed is on the Download page. (Hmm, pretty
> > painless, but there is some squabble amongst the distros about
> > splitting up one library into two ...)
> >
> > I have put in bug reports for the problems you have unearthed - Thank
> > you!
> 
> Do you have any users actually having success with the binary package on
> Ubuntu?  If not, telling people that the "ancient" versions delivered
> with the system itself are not to be used is creating a rather large
> barrier of entry.

As I say, I am told that it is a Ubuntu system that it gets tested on,
but if would help if we got more feedback from users. I occasionally get
visits from people with apple macs and the mac versions have worked on
their machines and I test windows versions on two or three machines with
various flavors of their o/ses. A GNU/Linux binary you would have
thought would be easier than either of those to get working ...
(As I wrote this I recalled that I have a small partition with Ubuntu
12.04 installed, I rebooted and went through the same process as with
Debian Stable and got the same, bizarre result). I think we need 

Re: adding engravers

[David Kastrup]

Noeck  writes:

> Inside a \with context or for the default context, this is short and
> nice to write. But it gets more lengthy for general settings in the
> layout block when different contexts are addressed. I always have to
> look it up as for the former #' syntax.

Perhaps time to learn what each line means.

> Is there a shorter way for a general setting like this?
>   \layout {
> \context {
context definition follows:
>   \Staff
like \music copying a music variable, \Staff copies a context
definition.  The salient point is that this context definition contains
a \name "Staff", so without overriding \name (which is perfectly
feasible), the new definition will get stored back into \Staff again.
>   \consists "Ambitus_engraver"

This changes the context definition.

> }
>   }
>
> Would it be difficult to implement something like this?
>
> \layout {
>   \consists Staff.Ambitus_engraver
> }

That would only make any kind of sense if you could actually write
\consists Staff.Ambitus_engraver also in mid-music.  However, engravers
are not usually prepared to be added and removed from already live
contexts, so this would likely cause huge messes and new bugs.

> or
>
> \layout {
>   \add Staff.Ambitus_engraver
> }

That does not resemble anything else.  I'm not in favor of adding random
syntactic variations of already existing features.

-- 
David Kastrup

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adding engravers

[Noeck]

Hi,

Inside a \with context or for the default context, this is short and
nice to write. But it gets more lengthy for general settings in the
layout block when different contexts are addressed. I always have to
look it up as for the former #' syntax.

Is there a shorter way for a general setting like this?
  \layout {
\context {
  \Staff
  \consists "Ambitus_engraver"
}
  }

Would it be difficult to implement something like this?

\layout {
  \consists Staff.Ambitus_engraver
}

or

\layout {
  \add Staff.Ambitus_engraver
}

Cheers,
Joram


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Re: LilyPond editing environments

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/9 Urs Liska :
> Hi,
>
> I have a few questions about the contents of the "Easier editing" page on
> lilypond.org.
>
> a)
> LilyPondTool.
> The link is broken, and http://lilypondtool.blogspot.de/ states (as of
> 2012-09-14) that development of LilyPondTool is stopped.
> Should I move it to the " Other programs not being actively developed"
> section?

absolutely!

> b)
> What is the reason that Tunefl is the topmost item in this list
> Shouldn't we instead add a new subsection for Online tools?
> - Tunefl
> - Schikker's list
> - lilybin
> - more?
> I would even add the MediaWiki extension to Wikipedia there.

Hard to say.  And I think there was some licensing problem with
Lilybin (it may not be fully free, and as GNU we cannot recommend
non-free programs).

But i agree that Frescobaldi should be on top, then Denemo, and then
Tunefl (as it does allow only to create small scores).
Janek

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Re: Unaccepted #t

[Jan-Peter Voigt]

Hi Tom,

Am 09.12.2013 14:05, schrieb Tom van der Hoeven:
> \override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'line-break-permission = #'force
> \override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'page-break-permission = #'allow
> 
> this solves the problem, but is is strange that
> 
> \override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'page-break-permission = ##f
> 
> is accepted

#f is often just interpreted as nil or null. So
\override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'page-break-permission = ##f
would be something like
NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-break-permission = null
in another language.

HTH, Jan-Peter


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Re: Unaccepted #t

[Tom van der Hoeven]

Urs,

thank for you quick reply.
I am translating pieces with clef alto to clef treble
First step by just copy the original.
At checking time I want to be in sink with the original
Second step clef treble and free format, because the spacing of Lilypond 
is the best.

For free format you need changes at 2 places.
The trick with mbreak = {} %\break
and give line break permission.
I want to handle them both with a boolean in the masterfile
freeformat = #t
or
freeformat = #f

So this is the underlying problem

Tom

Noeck,

\override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'line-break-permission = #'force
\override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'page-break-permission = #'allow

this solves the problem, but is is strange that

\override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'page-break-permission = ##f

is accepted

Tom


Urs Liska schreef op 9-12-2013 13:30:

Am 09.12.2013 13:00, schrieb Tom van der Hoeven:

The following snippet gives an error because ##t
Why

Tom


\version "2.16.2"
freeformat = #f
\score{
\new Staff <<
\relative c'{ c d e f a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g 
a g a g a \break a b f}

>>
  \layout {
\context {
  \Score
  \override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'line-break-permission = ##t
  \override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'page-break-permission = ##f
}
  }
  %\midi{}
}



In order for this to be compiled without errors you'd have to write

freeformat = ##f

#f
is the Scheme representation of "false"
and you need the second # to tell LilyPond that there is going to be a 
Scheme expression.


But you don't use that value in your code, so what is it for?

HTH
Urs

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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[Federico Bruni]

Il 09/dic/2013 09:22 "Janek Warchoł"  ha scritto:
>
> 2013/12/9 Carl Peterson :
> > 2013/12/6 David Kastrup :
> > > A complete color _scheme_ might be distracting, but it may make sense
to
> > > have a title or side bar or other obvious always on-screen element
> > > color-coded.
> >
> > Okay, so I have a patch set ready to go with this. The only differences
are
> > that the Usage book is yellow, the Internals book is purple, and I made
the
> > Contributor's Guide black.
> >
> > Where should I submit the patches for review? I've tried reading the
> > Contributor's Guide and I come up with about 3 or 4 different methods,
and
> > this sort of work is kind of in a no-man's land anyway.
>
> Please upload it using git cl tool, as described in
>
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/contributor/commits-and-patches#uploading-a-patch-for-review
> After doing so, there should be a new issue in the tracker
> (http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list) about your patch, and
> inside that issue there should be a link to
> http://codereview.appspot.com/
>

I've already created the issue in the tracker.
Carl, put the issue number in your commit message and IIRC git-cl will be
able to understand
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 11:51 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> David Kastrup  writes:
> 
> > Richard Shann  writes:
> >
> >> On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 09:52 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> >>
> >>> Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
> >>> LilyPond internally for creating its output.  While working with it,
> >>> you will not be exposed to the LilyPond language at all,
> >>
> >> This is incorrect. If you double click on a note, repeat bar ... you
> >> are told the LilyPond syntax that this element has created. If you
> >> switch to the LilyPond view of the Denemo score you see the LilyPond
> >> syntax and can edit it. There are some limitations still in that
> >> editing (e.g.  changing a note to a different note is still not
> >> possible, and there is no syntax highlighting, but you can re-write
> >> entirely the score layout starting from the default).
> >
> > Ok ok, I guess I'll get the Midi-equipped accordion from the storage,
> > see whether any contacts are stuck, install a current version of Denemo
> > and get myself informed.
> 
> _Very_ frustrating and unusable.  Complains about missing libraries when
> starting but those are available in Ubuntu.
> 
> Opens what feels like dozens of overlapping windows you first need to
> cleanup.

Yes, this has annoyed all ponders who have tried the latest Denemo. I
guess they will have to stay closed on the first run. (Once you close
them they stay closed if you quit cleanly). It will then be up to the
user to find the palettes in the View menu and start exploring them.

>   Refuses to compile anything, stating in the print preview

I wonder why - it works for some distros out of the box - otherwise you
have to give the path to LilyPond in Edit->Change Prefs->Externals

> window that LilyPond can't compile stuff (there is a version of LilyPond
> in the path).  One can open the LilyPond source file window (looks like
> it should work in 2.19.0), but Denemo refuses to open the "LilyPond
> error" window.

It does actually open the LilyPond Errors pane, but as Denemo is unable
to run LilyPond that is empty.
The LilyPond Errors item is not a separate window but a pane in the
LilyPond view, it would be better if the toggle for this lived in the
LilyPond window.


>   So it is impossible to figure out _why_ compilation
> fails.  On stderr, there is a flurry of messages like
> 
> ** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
> file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: 
> No such file or directory
[,,,]
> 
> which is probably related to the problem in some kind: there is no
> directory DenemooneMNfd anywhere and I don't see why it should.
> 
> This was using the Denemo 1.1 installer for GNU/Linux from the Denemo
> download page, on an Ubuntu 13.10 installation.
> 
> It seems pretty much unusable.

well, it is until it has found LilyPond. 

>   I can enter notes, but I don't get
> anywhere with trying to generate output.  The print preview has several
> buttons labelled things like "Print" and other, and it is totally
> unclear what they will actually do.

If you hover over them the tooltip will tell you. When you get tired of
the tooltips popping up so quickly and obtrusively you cut out the real
newbie ones from the Help menu and alter the time to pop up tooltips
from the Preferences menu.


>   Pressing them does not cause any
> effect (apart from error messages on stderr).

Well as this is a LilyPond output window with no LilyPond executable
found this is not by itself surprising. It should tell you (once only)
that it didn't find LilyPond.

> 
> So much for the binary install.  I am not too enthused about the
> prospect of having to compile from source just to be able to test basic
> functionality and possibly get a better clue about the intended startup
> behavior.

For folk with compilers, autotools and so on already installed building
from source is painless - it is not like running GUB. The list of
packages needed is on the Download page. (Hmm, pretty painless, but
there is some squabble amongst the distros about splitting up one
library into two ...)

I have put in bug reports for the problems you have unearthed - Thank
you!

Richard











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Re: Unaccepted #t

[Noeck]

> both the line- and the page-break-permissions expect one of these key
> words: 'allow or 'force and not boolean values (#t or #f).

PS: Btw, this documented here:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/internals/nonmusicalpapercolumn

PPS: If you put this in the layout block, they are valid for each point
in time and thus line breaks or page breaks are allowed or forced at
each barline.

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Re: Unaccepted #t

[Noeck]

Am 09.12.2013 13:00, schrieb Tom van der Hoeven:
> The following snippet gives an error because ##t
> Why
>   \override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'line-break-permission = ##t
>   \override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'page-break-permission = ##f

Hi Tom,

both the line- and the page-break-permissions expect one of these key
words: 'allow or 'force and not boolean values (#t or #f).

For example:
\override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'line-break-permission = #'force
\override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'page-break-permission = #'allow

HTH,
Joram

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Re: Unaccepted #t

[Urs Liska]

Am 09.12.2013 13:00, schrieb Tom van der Hoeven:

The following snippet gives an error because ##t
Why

Tom


\version "2.16.2"
freeformat = #f
\score{
\new Staff <<
\relative c'{ c d e f a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g 
a g a g a \break a b f}

>>
  \layout {
\context {
  \Score
  \override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'line-break-permission = ##t
  \override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'page-break-permission = ##f
}
  }
  %\midi{}
}



In order for this to be compiled without errors you'd have to write

freeformat = ##f

#f
is the Scheme representation of "false"
and you need the second # to tell LilyPond that there is going to be a 
Scheme expression.


But you don't use that value in your code, so what is it for?

HTH
Urs

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Unaccepted #t

[Tom van der Hoeven]

The following snippet gives an error because ##t
Why

Tom


\version "2.16.2"
freeformat = #f
\score{
\new Staff <<
\relative c'{ c d e f a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a g a 
g a g a \break a b f}

>>
  \layout {
\context {
  \Score
  \override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'line-break-permission = ##t
  \override NonMusicalPaperColumn #'page-break-permission = ##f
}
  }
  %\midi{}
}

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Re: LilyPond 2.17.97 released!

[Eluze]

I've just been informed by Phil that due to internet connection problems
during the upload not all files have reached the server - this will be fixed
as soon as possible!

Eluze



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LilyPond editing environments

[Urs Liska]

Hi,

I have a few questions about the contents of the "Easier editing" page 
on lilypond.org.


a)
LilyPondTool.
The link is broken, and http://lilypondtool.blogspot.de/ states (as of 
2012-09-14) that development of LilyPondTool is stopped.
Should I move it to the " Other programs not being actively developed" 
section?


b)
What is the reason that Tunefl is the topmost item in this list
Shouldn't we instead add a new subsection for Online tools?
- Tunefl
- Schikker's list
- lilybin
- more?
I would even add the MediaWiki extension to Wikipedia there.

Urs
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

David Kastrup  writes:

> ** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file
> file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening
> file: No such file or directory
>
> starting to generate LilyPond
>
> finished generating LilyPond
>
>
> which is probably related to the problem in some kind: there is no
> directory DenemooneMNfd anywhere and I don't see why it should.

Now I have to take that one back: there is such a directory:
dak@lola:~$ ls /tmp/DenemoneMNfd/
denemoprintA.ly  denemoprintB.ly

I just happened to type the ls command in a window logged into a
different computer.

The rest is pretty much as described.

> This was using the Denemo 1.1 installer for GNU/Linux from the Denemo
> download page, on an Ubuntu 13.10 installation.
>
> It seems pretty much unusable.  I can enter notes, but I don't get
> anywhere with trying to generate output.  The print preview has several
> buttons labelled things like "Print" and other, and it is totally
> unclear what they will actually do.  Pressing them does not cause any
> effect (apart from error messages on stderr).
>
> So much for the binary install.  I am not too enthused about the
> prospect of having to compile from source just to be able to test basic
> functionality and possibly get a better clue about the intended startup
> behavior.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

David Kastrup  writes:

> Richard Shann  writes:
>
>> On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 09:52 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
>>
>>> Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
>>> LilyPond internally for creating its output.  While working with it,
>>> you will not be exposed to the LilyPond language at all,
>>
>> This is incorrect. If you double click on a note, repeat bar ... you
>> are told the LilyPond syntax that this element has created. If you
>> switch to the LilyPond view of the Denemo score you see the LilyPond
>> syntax and can edit it. There are some limitations still in that
>> editing (e.g.  changing a note to a different note is still not
>> possible, and there is no syntax highlighting, but you can re-write
>> entirely the score layout starting from the default).
>
> Ok ok, I guess I'll get the Midi-equipped accordion from the storage,
> see whether any contacts are stuck, install a current version of Denemo
> and get myself informed.

_Very_ frustrating and unusable.  Complains about missing libraries when
starting but those are available in Ubuntu.

Opens what feels like dozens of overlapping windows you first need to
cleanup.  Refuses to compile anything, stating in the print preview
window that LilyPond can't compile stuff (there is a version of LilyPond
in the path).  One can open the LilyPond source file window (looks like
it should work in 2.19.0), but Denemo refuses to open the "LilyPond
error" window.  So it is impossible to figure out _why_ compilation
fails.  On stderr, there is a flurry of messages like

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintB.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory
Switched to Default Score Layout

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintB.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintB.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond


which is probably related to the problem in some kind: there is no
directory DenemooneMNfd anywhere and I don't see why it should.

This was using the Denemo 1.1 installer for GNU/Linux from the Denemo
download page, on an Ubuntu 13.10 installation.

It seems pretty much unusable.  I can enter notes, but I don't get
anywhere with trying to generate output.  The print preview has several
buttons labelled things like "Print" and other, and it is totally
unclear what they will actually do.  Pressing them does not cause any
effect (apart from error messages on stderr).

So much for the binary install.  I am not too enthused about the
prospect of having to compile from source just to be able to test basic
functionality and possibly get a better clue about the intended startup
behavior.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann  writes:

> On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 09:52 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
>
>> Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
>> LilyPond internally for creating its output.  While working with it,
>> you will not be exposed to the LilyPond language at all,
>
> This is incorrect. If you double click on a note, repeat bar ... you
> are told the LilyPond syntax that this element has created. If you
> switch to the LilyPond view of the Denemo score you see the LilyPond
> syntax and can edit it. There are some limitations still in that
> editing (e.g.  changing a note to a different note is still not
> possible, and there is no syntax highlighting, but you can re-write
> entirely the score layout starting from the default).

Ok ok, I guess I'll get the Midi-equipped accordion from the storage,
see whether any contacts are stuck, install a current version of Denemo
and get myself informed.

>>  and the LilyPond documentation will be mostly irrelevant.
>
> I think this is not so either: it is slightly daft that you need to
> run the insert LilyPond command in the main Denemo display rather than
> in the LilyPond view in order to start inserting text, but the
> LilyPond syntax is entirely relevant if you want to do things that
> Denemo does not have built in. Ok, so it is mostly irrelevant if you
> just want to do things that Denemo has built in, but I am sure you
> have written all that other LilyPond syntax for very good reasons :)

How does Denemo's relation to LilyPond compare to LyX's with LaTeX?
Anybody here who knows both?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: LilyPond 2.17.97 released!

[Eluze]

couldn't find the windows version!

Eluze



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Re: LilyPond 2.17.97 released!

[Thomas Scharkowski]

Not Found

The requested URL
/lilypond/binaries/linux-64/lilypond-2.17.97-1.linux-64.sh was not found
on this server.

 Original-Nachricht 

> We are excited to announce the release of LilyPond 2.17.97 as a potential 
> final beta release for the upcoming stable release 2.18. The developers 
> believe this to be feature-complete, the documentation to be accurate, and 
> no important issues to be overlooked. For upgrading the syntax of your input 
> files to the latest version, see Updating files with convert-ly. Please test 
> this release and report back any problems, see Bug reports.
> 
> --
> Phil Holmes
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Info-lilypond mailing list
> info-lilyp...@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-lilypond
> 


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 09:52 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> James Harkins  writes:
> 
> > Carl's two-column approach is pretty much what I had in
> > mind. Although, he suggests this would be only a slight improvement. I
> > think it could be more than that. Suppose we introduce the downloads
> > with a couple of paragraphs across the top:
> >
> > ~~
> > IMPORTANT: A complete working environment for LilyPond consists of two
> > components: LilyPond itself, and a music editor. If you have installed
> > only one of these, then you're not experiencing LilyPond's full power.
> 
> That's nonsensical.  You'll be experiencing LilyPond's full power if and
> only if you have LilyPond itself installed.
> 
> > NEW USERS: After installing LilyPond for your operating system, review
> > the editors in the right-hand column and install one of them. Use the
> > editor as your primary LilyPond interface.
> 
> Again: I think the graphical environments should cater for
> downloading/installing LilyPond itself, and at least Denemo currently
> seems to do this, while Frescobaldi is quite open to that.
> 
> As long as its developers are actively participating on this list and
> interested in making things easier for the users, I'd lean towards
> something like:
> 
> LilyPond is a _command_ _line_ application translating files written in
> LilyPond's music description language [see text input] into complete
> scores.  It does _not_ constitute a work environment.  What you will be
> working with for entering your scores is either a text editor of your
> choice, or a tool specialized for creating LilyPond files.
> 
> Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
> LilyPond internally for creating its output.  While working with it, you
> will not be exposed to the LilyPond language at all,

This is incorrect. If you double click on a note, repeat bar ... you are
told the LilyPond syntax that this element has created. If you switch to
the LilyPond view of the Denemo score you see the LilyPond syntax and
can edit it. There are some limitations still in that editing (e.g.
changing a note to a different note is still not possible, and there is
no syntax highlighting, but you can re-write entirely the score layout
starting from the default).


>  and the LilyPond
> documentation will be mostly irrelevant.

I think this is not so either: it is slightly daft that you need to run
the insert LilyPond command in the main Denemo display rather than in
the LilyPond view in order to start inserting text, but the LilyPond
syntax is entirely relevant if you want to do things that Denemo does
not have built in. Ok, so it is mostly irrelevant if you just want to do
things that Denemo has built in, but I am sure you have written all that
other LilyPond syntax for very good reasons :)

Richard


>   Since it has a number of input
> methods as well as Midi input, it may also be used as an input tool for
> entering the bulk of your music material first and exporting it to
> native LilyPond format for further editing.
>   If you employ it in this
> manner, you will still need an editor suitable for working directly with
> the LilyPond language.  Denemo already includes a version of LilyPond
> and can be downloaded here [Download from external link].
> 
> Frescobaldi: this is a specialized editor with lots of support for
> creating and maintaining scores in the LilyPond language itself.  As
> opposed to Denemo, you'll be responsible for writing every bit, and your
> main reference will be the LilyPond documentation which is also
> accessible from within Frescobaldi.  Frescobaldi can download and
> install any version of LilyPond itself via the .../... menu and is
> available here [Download from external link].
> 
> LilyPond: command line driven compiler of the LilyPond language.  If you
> want to install just LilyPond itself and will be working with an editor
> of your choice, you can download it from here [Download]
> 
> Something like that.
> 



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 09.12.2013 10:15, schrieb James Harkins:

Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
LilyPond internally for creating its output.


I think this is too much to ask people to read on the download page. 
The download page should be as simple as possible and direct people 
toward the resources they need. Much more than that, and you get into 
TL;DR territory. Linking directly from the proposed "editors" section 
of the download page to the "Easier editing" page would be more 
appropriate, I think.


What we want users to get is the idea that they will need *some* 
editor, which the download page can do in a compact way. Providing a 
brain-dead easy "can't miss it" link to profiles of the various 
editors, and links directly to the Denemo and Frescobaldi homepages, 
would be enough.




I will use most of David's suggestion quite literally but will see how 
to distribute it on the different pages.


Urs
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[James Harkins]

On Monday, December 9, 2013 4:52:08 PM HKT, David Kastrup wrote:

James Harkins  writes:


Carl's two-column approach is pretty much what I had in
mind. Although, he suggests this would be only a slight improvement. I
think it could be more than that. Suppose we introduce the downloads
with a couple of paragraphs across the top:

~~
IMPORTANT: A complete working environment for LilyPond consists of two
components: LilyPond itself, and a music editor. If you have installed
only one of these, then you're not experiencing LilyPond's full power.


That's nonsensical.  You'll be experiencing LilyPond's full power if and
only if you have LilyPond itself installed.



That's splitting hairs, isn't it? If you install only an editor, you'll get 
0% of LilyPond's power. This is, indeed, less than "full power." My wording 
underestimates the severity of failing to install LilyPond, but one would 
hope (of all possible details to omit) that this might go without saying.




LilyPond is a _command_ _line_ application translating files written in
LilyPond's music description language [see text input] into complete
scores.  It does _not_ constitute a work environment.  What you will be
working with for entering your scores is either a text editor of your
choice, or a tool specialized for creating LilyPond files.


Sure, that sounds good.


Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
LilyPond internally for creating its output.


I think this is too much to ask people to read on the download page. The 
download page should be as simple as possible and direct people toward the 
resources they need. Much more than that, and you get into TL;DR territory. 
Linking directly from the proposed "editors" section of the download page 
to the "Easier editing" page would be more appropriate, I think.


What we want users to get is the idea that they will need *some* editor, 
which the download page can do in a compact way. Providing a brain-dead 
easy "can't miss it" link to profiles of the various editors, and links 
directly to the Denemo and Frescobaldi homepages, would be enough.


hjh

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 00:10 +0100, Federico Bruni wrote:
> 2013/12/5 Richard Shann 
> The Denemo windows and mac binaries have LilyPond built in.
> Not sure
> about the GNU/Linux one.
> 
> 
> I would bet that it's not built in.

I just checked, and the GNU/Linux one does in fact have lilypond built
in. (It is not surprising - once you have got GUB working you are not
going to start unpicking the installer to give the user more to do)


> In debian lilypond is recommended, it's not a dependency of denemo:
> 
> 
> $ apt-cache depends denemo | grep lilypond
>   Recommends: lilypond

This is nothing to do with these Denemo binaries (or the LilyPond ones
either), these binaries are just user programs - another user cannot
even execute them without the original installer changing the
permissions.
They don't affect your system stability and so on for that reason - the
cost is disk space, you have copies under your home directory of many
libraries and executables that you have already installed in the system.
Indeed if you use the LilyPond installer as well (and point Denemo to
use that) you will have e.g. three versions of ghostscript, one
in /usr/bin one in ~/lilypond/usr/bin and one in ~/denemo/usr/bin

Richard


> 
> 
> BUT
> Note that apt-get now installs recommended packages as default and is
> the preferred program for package management from console to perform
> system installation and major system upgrades for its robustness.
> 
> Source:
>  http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-pkgtools.en.html
> 
> 
> 
> 



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

James Harkins  writes:

> Carl's two-column approach is pretty much what I had in
> mind. Although, he suggests this would be only a slight improvement. I
> think it could be more than that. Suppose we introduce the downloads
> with a couple of paragraphs across the top:
>
> ~~
> IMPORTANT: A complete working environment for LilyPond consists of two
> components: LilyPond itself, and a music editor. If you have installed
> only one of these, then you're not experiencing LilyPond's full power.

That's nonsensical.  You'll be experiencing LilyPond's full power if and
only if you have LilyPond itself installed.

> NEW USERS: After installing LilyPond for your operating system, review
> the editors in the right-hand column and install one of them. Use the
> editor as your primary LilyPond interface.

Again: I think the graphical environments should cater for
downloading/installing LilyPond itself, and at least Denemo currently
seems to do this, while Frescobaldi is quite open to that.

As long as its developers are actively participating on this list and
interested in making things easier for the users, I'd lean towards
something like:

LilyPond is a _command_ _line_ application translating files written in
LilyPond's music description language [see text input] into complete
scores.  It does _not_ constitute a work environment.  What you will be
working with for entering your scores is either a text editor of your
choice, or a tool specialized for creating LilyPond files.

Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
LilyPond internally for creating its output.  While working with it, you
will not be exposed to the LilyPond language at all, and the LilyPond
documentation will be mostly irrelevant.  Since it has a number of input
methods as well as Midi input, it may also be used as an input tool for
entering the bulk of your music material first and exporting it to
native LilyPond format for further editing.  If you employ it in this
manner, you will still need an editor suitable for working directly with
the LilyPond language.  Denemo already includes a version of LilyPond
and can be downloaded here [Download from external link].

Frescobaldi: this is a specialized editor with lots of support for
creating and maintaining scores in the LilyPond language itself.  As
opposed to Denemo, you'll be responsible for writing every bit, and your
main reference will be the LilyPond documentation which is also
accessible from within Frescobaldi.  Frescobaldi can download and
install any version of LilyPond itself via the .../... menu and is
available here [Download from external link].

LilyPond: command line driven compiler of the LilyPond language.  If you
want to install just LilyPond itself and will be working with an editor
of your choice, you can download it from here [Download]

Something like that.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Heard on Twitter

[Peter Bjuhr]

In a reply the MuseScore Twitter account stated that the LilyPond export 
function will be removed in the next version:



@shoorick77 Lilypond export is removed for next version in favour of 
consolidating efforts on MusicXML i/o

http://twitter.com/musescore/status/409830922658529280



Best
Peter

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 09.12.2013 07:28, schrieb Carl Peterson:
On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:12 AM, James Harkins > wrote:


Carl's two-column approach is pretty much what I had in mind.
Although, he suggests this would be only a slight improvement. I
think it could be more than that. Suppose we introduce the
downloads with a couple of paragraphs across the top:

~~
IMPORTANT: A complete working environment for LilyPond consists of
two components: LilyPond itself, and a music editor. If you have
installed only one of these, then you're not experiencing
LilyPond's full power.

NEW USERS: After installing LilyPond for your operating system,
review the editors in the right-hand column and install one of
them. Use the editor as your primary LilyPond interface.
~~


I didn't intend my statement to be intended as my thinking it is only 
a slight improvement. I meant primarily that regardless of however 
slight it *might* be, it is an improvement, nonetheless.


The page flow I usually see is something like:

Front page --> Download page.

We have most of that. I think we need to find some way to make the 
front-ends like Frescobaldi and Denemo clearly visible on the 
downloads page. Go ahead and put in the disclaimer that these aren't 
maintained by the LP project itself (just to try to stave off confusion).


I see the following needs:

a)
Do what you (and some others) say above: Edit the text of the "Download" 
page to make explicit that you _do_ need _any_ editing environment and 
that this is separate from the LilyPond download.


b)
Rename "Easier Editing" to "Editing"
After all, that's what we're talking about here. While technically you 
could argue "Editing" can be done with any text editor and "Easier 
Editing" is done with dedicated tools this isn't relevant for someone 
looking for initial information.
If I were looking at the website the first time I'd probably think: 
"Easier Editing? OK, let's give the default tools a try first. If I 
decide to stick with that program I can always go back and look for 
"easier Editing"."


c)
Add an introductory text at the top of the "Editing" page.

d)
(_slightly_ OT, but important anyway: improve the structure on the 
"Introduction" and "Features" page from the perspective of that 
imaginary new user.


The question that remains in my mind is whether it is more beneficial 
to redirect to the project site (to get specific install instructions) 
or to hotlink the install binaries. It's been awhile since I've 
installed an LP front-end  to remember whether there are particular 
installation things that have to happen outside of download and run (I 
know there is for Frescobaldi for Mac, as has been discussed numerous 
times on this list). Perhaps coordinate with the people on the 
respective projects to arrange for a download link that always 
provides the latest stable version?


I suggest to link to the project page in any case.
If it's possible to link to a "latest stable binary" then do this 
additionally.


Urs
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Re: LilyPond Website Work

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/9 Carl Peterson :
> 2013/12/6 David Kastrup :
> > A complete color _scheme_ might be distracting, but it may make sense to
> > have a title or side bar or other obvious always on-screen element
> > color-coded.
>
> Okay, so I have a patch set ready to go with this. The only differences are
> that the Usage book is yellow, the Internals book is purple, and I made the
> Contributor's Guide black.
>
> Where should I submit the patches for review? I've tried reading the
> Contributor's Guide and I come up with about 3 or 4 different methods, and
> this sort of work is kind of in a no-man's land anyway.

Please upload it using git cl tool, as described in
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/contributor/commits-and-patches#uploading-a-patch-for-review
After doing so, there should be a new issue in the tracker
(http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/list) about your patch, and
inside that issue there should be a link to
http://codereview.appspot.com/

If you have problems, let us know.

thanks!
Janek

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Re: Lilypond Website Work

[David Kastrup]

Carl Peterson  writes:

> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:
>>
>> I have something in development for #2 on Federico's list. I've parsed
>> through enough of the texi2html script that I was able to insert CSS
>> classes into the  tag that will allow me to color code each manual.
>>
>
> One thing that is very strange that I've noticed in working on this is that
> if I modify Documentation/lilypond-texi2html.init (which impacts virtually
> every part of the website) and build the documentation, nothing happens,
> but if I change one of the stylesheets (which is a superficial thing that
> does not, to my knowledge, impact the building of any other file), the
> entire documentation gets rebuilt. This is backwards. When I've been
> working on the lilypond-texi2html.init file, I've been having to go in and
> touch one of the manual pages (usually changes.tely, since it's probably
> the smallest and easiest to build) to get it to recompile that manual so I
> can see what my changes did.

If you feel comfortable figuring out what change would be required to
the makefiles or makefile inclusion files, you can propose a patch after
checking it does what you think it does.

Other than that, report a bug.

-- 
David Kastrup

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