Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Am Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:51:14 +0900 schrieb John Summerfield [EMAIL PROTECTED]: QEMU is different. I don't know what the interaction with KVM is, but QEMU is said to emulate fairly well. I've not explored setting up QEMU to run Power, but I did try QEMU on my G4 laptop a while ago. I decided Windows was too slow to be useful. KVM just uses qemus device subsystem for I/O emulation and it uses it as a management hub. The qemu console allows to attach/detach devices/cpus and such similar to CPs console. so long, Carsten -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Alan Altmark wrote: Even the Xen solutions do not do cross-architecture virtualization. If you run Xen on x86, you get x86. If you run it on Power, you get Power. If it were to run on System z, you would get z/Architecture. I keep More or less: one can run 32-bit code under xen on AMD-64. I presume the like applies on Power etc. QEMU is different. I don't know what the interaction with KVM is, but QEMU is said to emulate fairly well. I've not explored setting up QEMU to run Power, but I did try QEMU on my G4 laptop a while ago. I decided Windows was too slow to be useful. waiting for an operating system written in Java with a byte-code-interpreting CPU! I expected a PCI card with a Java RM back when IBM was still pushing OS/2. Seems a way cool thing to do. I thought Sun might do it, else some wannabe startup. -- Cheers John -- spambait [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Berry van Sleeuwen wrote: As for cost, yes, a mainframe will cost you more than a PC, but can you run as much workload on a PC? You would need more PC's to run the same workload and that would increase the cost to the same level or even above that. The problem is that you can't compare a single PC with a single mainframe and then say that the mainframe is more expensive. It is just like comparing a car with a truck. I wouldn't buy a car and then expect it to move 40tons of freight. So why then expect a PC to run the workload of a mainframe? Unfortunatly, most decision makers only know a PC and compare the price for a PC they buy at whatever discountstore with the price they must pay for a zseries machine. They ignore the fact that a mainframe can run much, much more workloads and is much more scalable than a PC. It's been said fairly regularly on this list, that if your workload is I/O intensive, zSeries is a good choice. If it's CPU intensive, look at something else. Maybe intellish, maybe Power, maybe something else. Have a look at top500.org to see what folks who are doing serious number crunching use. Intellish and Linux get mentioned fairly often, zSeries and its predecessors never. -- Cheers John -- spambait [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375 You cannot reply off-list:-) -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Hi List, we have recently been asked to virtualize a windows server under SLES9 Linux running in a z/VM environment. In other words: - A zSeries system running - a z/VM system running - a SLES9 Linux running - a windows (XP server I suppose) My question is: How can I virtualize a server under a z/Linux ? I have tried XEN but have found it only on INTEL platforms. In fact I have read Xen works currently only on x86 platforms and it is being tried on AMD64, IA64 and PPC. So I assume it doesn't work on zLinux. KVM VirtualBox Virtual PC BOCHS QEMU also don't seem to work on z/VM z/Linux platforms. So my question is: do any of you know any way to achieve this invention our customer demands from us ? Thanks in advance. BRGDS, José R. Barón Dpto. Sistemas CALCULO S.A. Tel. 91 330 86 44 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] P No imprima este e-mail si no es realmente necesario. Do not print this e-mail unless really necessary. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
On 11/11/2008 at 10:47 AM, jose raul baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -snip- So my question is: do any of you know any way to achieve this invention our customer demands from us ? Currently, no, there is no way to do this. That may be changing in the future, if the folks from Mantissa are successful. But as of today, the best you can do is migrate the workload to Linux, not the Windows operating system itself. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Not a direct answer, but Mantissa is working on x/86 under z/VM. Target release date is 1Q2009. Virtualization rate is estimated to be about 700 images per z/9 engine. You can extrapolate for z/890 or z/10. http://www.mantissa.com/products/UV snip Hi List, we have recently been asked to virtualize a windows server under SLES9 Linux running in a z/VM environment. In other words: - A zSeries system running - a z/VM system running - a SLES9 Linux running - a windows (XP server I suppose) My question is: How can I virtualize a server under a z/Linux ? I have tried XEN but have found it only on INTEL platforms. In fact I have read Xen works currently only on x86 platforms and it is being tried on AMD64, IA64 and PPC. So I assume it doesn't work on zLinux. KVM VirtualBox Virtual PC BOCHS QEMU also don't seem to work on z/VM z/Linux platforms. So my question is: do any of you know any way to achieve this invention our customer demands from us ? /snip -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
I believe, if memory serves, that they were going to make some sort of official announcement about their product sometime in November, with GA in the 1st quarter of 2009. Note that the Mantissa x86 virtualization engine runs under CMS, so there is no need (or expense) to acquire a Linux on zSeries distribution. Staller, Allan wrote: Not a direct answer, but Mantissa is working on x/86 under z/VM. Target release date is 1Q2009. Virtualization rate is estimated to be about 700 images per z/9 engine. You can extrapolate for z/890 or z/10. http://www.mantissa.com/products/UV snip Hi List, we have recently been asked to virtualize a windows server under SLES9 Linux running in a z/VM environment. In other words: - A zSeries system running - a z/VM system running - a SLES9 Linux running - a windows (XP server I suppose) My question is: How can I virtualize a server under a z/Linux ? I have tried XEN but have found it only on INTEL platforms. In fact I have read Xen works currently only on x86 platforms and it is being tried on AMD64, IA64 and PPC. So I assume it doesn't work on zLinux. KVM VirtualBox Virtual PC BOCHS QEMU also don't seem to work on z/VM z/Linux platforms. So my question is: do any of you know any way to achieve this invention our customer demands from us ? /snip -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- DJ V/Soft z/VM and mainframe Linux expertise, training, consulting, and software development www.vsoft-software.com -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
If you are interested, I ported QEMU on Debian s390. The problem with QEMU is that it does not compile with gcc 4.x compiler. It uses gcc 3.4.6. I am running it under z/VM 5.3 on a z/990. I used a Standard Windows 2003 server. The installation run about 8 hours but finally it worked. The performance is not that bad but I am not sure if it would really be acceptable for production workload. Probably the performance would be better on more modern machines like z/10. Best regards, Florian On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 5:23 PM, jose raul baron [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Oh, I see. I feared that. Certainly I agree the proper thing would be to migrate the workload instead of keeping the same philosophy but... the customer is always right. OK, thank you very much for your help, gentlemen. BRGDS, José R. Barón Dpto. Sistemas CALCULO S.A. Tel. 91 330 86 44 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] P No imprima este e-mail si no es realmente necesario. Do not print this e-mail unless really necessary. -Mensaje original- De: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Mark Post Enviado el: martes, 11 de noviembre de 2008 17:12 Para: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Asunto: Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR On 11/11/2008 at 10:47 AM, jose raul baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -snip- So my question is: do any of you know any way to achieve this invention our customer demands from us ? Currently, no, there is no way to do this. That may be changing in the future, if the folks from Mantissa are successful. But as of today, the best you can do is migrate the workload to Linux, not the Windows operating system itself. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Best regards Florian Bilek -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
On Tuesday, 11/11/2008 at 11:24 EST, jose raul baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Certainly I agree the proper thing would be to migrate the workload instead of keeping the same philosophy but... the customer is always right. (cough) As many customers who have talked to me can attest, no, they are not always right. :-) They can have good intentions and excellent ideas, but the technology is sometimes simply not there to support those ideas. And, occasionally, it's just a Bad Idea. In this case, it is technically possible to run Windows servers on System z today using Bochs, the Linux open source IA-32 emulator, but it qualifies as a Bad Idea due to the performance. It's certainly interesting from an academic perspective, but it doesn't meet the needs of business. So we await Mantissa's offering with bated breath - to see if we can get the utility of x86 with the management characteristics and scalability of System z, at a cost people can afford. Even the Xen solutions do not do cross-architecture virtualization. If you run Xen on x86, you get x86. If you run it on Power, you get Power. If it were to run on System z, you would get z/Architecture. I keep waiting for an operating system written in Java with a byte-code-interpreting CPU! Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Hello Alan, I would like to come back on your statement: snip It's certainly interesting from an academic perspective, but it doesn't meet the needs of business. /snip I would really like to understand IBM's view on this issue. Is it from a business point of view that Windows or Intel (x86) is not considered as a serious environment for running mission critical applications?? Unfortunately there are hundred thousands of applications out there that exist only on Windows and unfortunately not on Linux. And even when they would exist on Linux it does not mean that they would run on z/Series. So since long time I wonder myself what is the reason to simply ignore the fact that in a lot of organisations consider the costs of z/Series compared to WinTel Servers as terrible high and then this platform does not run Windows applications. (I do not want to discuss if this is true or not but this is what I hear from my management). I have all the time problems with my management to justify the costs. If x86 programs would run naively also on z/Series I would never had such problems any more. So I would see indeed a urgent need in solving this issue. Best Regards, Florian On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Alan Altmark [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Tuesday, 11/11/2008 at 11:24 EST, jose raul baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Certainly I agree the proper thing would be to migrate the workload instead of keeping the same philosophy but... the customer is always right. (cough) As many customers who have talked to me can attest, no, they are not always right. :-) They can have good intentions and excellent ideas, but the technology is sometimes simply not there to support those ideas. And, occasionally, it's just a Bad Idea. In this case, it is technically possible to run Windows servers on System z today using Bochs, the Linux open source IA-32 emulator, but it qualifies as a Bad Idea due to the performance. It's certainly interesting from an academic perspective, but it doesn't meet the needs of business. So we await Mantissa's offering with bated breath - to see if we can get the utility of x86 with the management characteristics and scalability of System z, at a cost people can afford. Even the Xen solutions do not do cross-architecture virtualization. If you run Xen on x86, you get x86. If you run it on Power, you get Power. If it were to run on System z, you would get z/Architecture. I keep waiting for an operating system written in Java with a byte-code-interpreting CPU! Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Best regards Florian Bilek -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
On 11/11/08 11:57 AM, Alan Altmark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I keep waiting for an operating system written in Java with a byte-code-interpreting CPU! Well, there is the p-system OS. Not the IBM P, and not written in Java, but very platform independent, and there were systems manufactured that ran P-code natively (LSI11, etc). A Java-based pcode interpreter does exist, which would get you a pretty decent system fairly quickly. Now, there is a company that makes a system with Java enabled coprocessing facilities that *might* be made to do this with a little thought, but... 8-) -- db -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
On Nov 11, 2008, at 11:15 AM, David Boyes wrote: On 11/11/08 11:57 AM, Alan Altmark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I keep waiting for an operating system written in Java with a byte-code-interpreting CPU! Well, there is the p-system OS. Not the IBM P, and not written in Java, but very platform independent, and there were systems manufactured that ran P-code natively (LSI11, etc). A Java-based pcode interpreter does exist, which would get you a pretty decent system fairly quickly. Now, there is a company that makes a system with Java enabled coprocessing facilities that *might* be made to do this with a little thought, but... 8-) http://www.jnode.org/ for the Java OS. Combine with JOP: http://www.jopdesign.com/ (not currently responding, but the Google Cache is there) Adam -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
On Tuesday, 11/11/2008 at 12:49 EST, Florian Bilek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would really like to understand IBM's view on this issue. Is it from a business point of view that Windows or Intel (x86) is not considered as a serious environment for running mission critical applications?? No, that is not IBM's view. I was referring specifically to the use of Bochs on Linux on System z. x86, z, p and i are ALL great environments for mission critical apps. since long time I wonder myself what is the reason to simply ignore the fact that in a lot of organisations consider the costs of z/Series compared to WinTel Servers as terrible high and then this platform does not run Windows applications. (I do not want to discuss if this is true or not but this is what I hear from my management). I have all the time problems with my management to justify the costs. If x86 programs would run naively also on z/Series I would never had such problems any more. So I would see indeed a urgent need in solving this issue. Everyone would like a machine that has all of the Inherent Mainframe Coolness that we have come to appreciate over the decades, has none of the attributes we hate (acquisition costs), but with the ability to run any architecture using a consolidated set of peripherals - at speed, of course. It is the Holy Grail. Until then, we compromise, living with multiple servers, with their plusses and minuses. The Quest goes on Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
IANA IBM'er. However, I have been looking extensively into virtualization as a means to save my company some serious GREEN dollars, not funny money and not eco-dollars. VMware also provides much of the same functionality, but only runs on *IX based HW(Sun, HP,...). I do not think (and I could be wrong) that VMware supports running on a z/box at all. The Mantissa offering is very enticing to my company because of the consolidation opportunities. However, at my last check, the economics did not seem to favor x86 consolidation on z. The z/10 changed the numbers, but not enough to tip the scale. When accomplished, (via VMware or Mantissa VOS) the consolidation will save us some serious money currently going to our disaster recovery vendor. I have no inside information, however, I would imagine the Mantissa folks are writing a virtual x86 to run under z/VM. Regardless what IBM thinks about the viability of Windows as a mission critical vendor, if it sells more z boxes, I am sure IBM will jump on the band-wagon with both feet (and even push the wagon too!) My opinion only, and not necessarily that of my employer. snip Subject: Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR Hello Alan, I would like to come back on your statement: snip It's certainly interesting from an academic perspective, but it doesn't meet the needs of business. /snip I would really like to understand IBM's view on this issue. Is it from a business point of view that Windows or Intel (x86) is not considered as a serious environment for running mission critical applications?? /snip -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Hello Florian, IMO it is the other way around. Microsoft doesn't build it's software for zseries therefore it will not run on zseries. Perhaps IBM would sell zseries machines to run windows, just like they do for linux, but then Microsoft would have to build the software for this CPU. And also other vendors would have to build their software for z too. I too don't consider x86 emulation to meet business needs. It would be interesting to see if it will run from a specialist point of view. But for production loads I want the software to run with as little overhead as possible. Emulating an x86, or emulating any type of CPU for that matter, to run mission critical software will just be too expensive. Therefore, you'd be better off moving the workload to a native zseries application than to run an emulated processor to do the same thing. There are indeed a lot of applications that are out there for x86. But there is a choice. If you want a database you can select Access. But then you'd also select the hardware and OS it must run on. You could also select DB2 or MySQL and in that case you can decide upon the platform you can run it on, depending on the capabilities of the platform. Most applications you can buy for windows do have alternatives, either for x86 or for zseries. And now that we have linux on zseries a lot more applications have become available for zseries. If only there were more vendors that would offer (build/compile/support) their products for zseries too. We offer our clients an option with linux on z. If they want a database, we support MySQL, Postgresql, DB2 and oracle. A webserver will be Apache. A fileserver, Samba or NFS. Just what they can run on linux, we are willing to offer. O, btw, it will run on z (notice we don't say mainframe ;-)). But if a client insists on running IIS or MS-Access, too bad, we can not run that on our linux on z as well as you cannot run it on a x86 linux. As for cost, yes, a mainframe will cost you more than a PC, but can you run as much workload on a PC? You would need more PC's to run the same workload and that would increase the cost to the same level or even above that. The problem is that you can't compare a single PC with a single mainframe and then say that the mainframe is more expensive. It is just like comparing a car with a truck. I wouldn't buy a car and then expect it to move 40tons of freight. So why then expect a PC to run the workload of a mainframe? Unfortunatly, most decision makers only know a PC and compare the price for a PC they buy at whatever discountstore with the price they must pay for a zseries machine. They ignore the fact that a mainframe can run much, much more workloads and is much more scalable than a PC. It is just a matter of choice and what choice you begin with. If you select windows then you have selected x86 by default and also have selected the range of products you can run on that platform. If you select an application, you are limited by the options that this application will bring you. But if you select the hardware that will support your workload first then you are free to select the OS and applications that will run on the type of hardware. Regards, Berry. Florian Bilek schreef: Hello Alan, I would like to come back on your statement: snip It's certainly interesting from an academic perspective, but it doesn't meet the needs of business. /snip I would really like to understand IBM's view on this issue. Is it from a business point of view that Windows or Intel (x86) is not considered as a serious environment for running mission critical applications?? Unfortunately there are hundred thousands of applications out there that exist only on Windows and unfortunately not on Linux. And even when they would exist on Linux it does not mean that they would run on z/Series. So since long time I wonder myself what is the reason to simply ignore the fact that in a lot of organisations consider the costs of z/Series compared to WinTel Servers as terrible high and then this platform does not run Windows applications. (I do not want to discuss if this is true or not but this is what I hear from my management). I have all the time problems with my management to justify the costs. If x86 programs would run naively also on z/Series I would never had such problems any more. So I would see indeed a urgent need in solving this issue. Best Regards, Florian On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Alan Altmark [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Tuesday, 11/11/2008 at 11:24 EST, jose raul baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Certainly I agree the proper thing would be to migrate the workload instead of keeping the same philosophy but... the customer is always right. (cough) As many customers who have talked to me can attest, no, they are not always right. :-) They can have good intentions and excellent ideas, but the technology is sometimes simply not there to support those ideas. And, occasionally,
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Staller, Allan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IANA IBM'er. However, I have been looking extensively into virtualization as a means to save my company some serious GREEN dollars, not funny money and not eco-dollars. While you can (and will!) save GREEN dollars (I know at least one company doing a lot of that), don't overlook the potential systems manglement savings. This must be intentional or it won't happen. There is also a thread in this group about read-only root. Read-only root is one example of resource sharing, and that's where virtualization really wins. The more alike you can keep your flock o penguins the easier they are to hatch, groom, and cull. You are correct that VMware does not run on the z. VMware, like z/VM, is a true hypervisor in that the guest executes on the underlying physical processor until there is some exception (such as I/O or a privileged operation). It is that run-on-the-bare-metal feature which gives z/VM and VMware such low insertion loss compared to emulators (eg: BOCHS). But it is that same run-on-the-bare-metal feature which binds z/VM to the mainframe and binds VMware to the INTeL instruction set. The Mantissa product z/VOS (for Windows on z/VM, and they do mean INTeL executables) is an emulator. They believe they have addressed performance issues enough to make it viable. It is also true that the latest mainframes have ample CPU power and need not shy away from emulation like most of us recommended in the past. I hope this helps. -- Rick; -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Academic in the fact that it wouldn't make sense from a business perspective. Simple arithmetic: Emulation normally takes an order of magnitude more cycles. Thus a workload that consumes 10% of a 2Ghz intel processor would consume 1/2 of a z10 IFL. Even with the new low price for z10 IFL, making a business case would be difficult. The Mantissa website seems to focus on education - one class can have their intel servers, then when the class is over, the next class can have their intel servers - that could make business sense if academia looks for business sense - but VMWare is likely going to be a better business case. If Mantissa is very good at miracles and they get only 2 times the cycle requirement, with servers that are 10% busy, assuming 2ghz processors, one z10 IFL will max out replacing 10 intel servers. I will be eagerly waiting to see some real performance data. (And of course when someone asked to put up open solaris on our z9, i quickly said yes as performance will be interesting i am sure). Florian Bilek wrote: Hello Alan, I would like to come back on your statement: snip It's certainly interesting from an academic perspective, but it doesn't meet the needs of business. /snip I would really like to understand IBM's view on this issue. Is it from a business point of view that Windows or Intel (x86) is not considered as a serious environment for running mission critical applications?? Unfortunately there are hundred thousands of applications out there that exist only on Windows and unfortunately not on Linux. And even when they would exist on Linux it does not mean that they would run on z/Series. So since long time I wonder myself what is the reason to simply ignore the fact that in a lot of organisations consider the costs of z/Series compared to WinTel Servers as terrible high and then this platform does not run Windows applications. (I do not want to discuss if this is true or not but this is what I hear from my management). I have all the time problems with my management to justify the costs. If x86 programs would run naively also on z/Series I would never had such problems any more. So I would see indeed a urgent need in solving this issue. Best Regards, Florian On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Alan Altmark [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Tuesday, 11/11/2008 at 11:24 EST, jose raul baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Certainly I agree the proper thing would be to migrate the workload instead of keeping the same philosophy but... the customer is always right. (cough) As many customers who have talked to me can attest, no, they are not always right. :-) They can have good intentions and excellent ideas, but the technology is sometimes simply not there to support those ideas. And, occasionally, it's just a Bad Idea. In this case, it is technically possible to run Windows servers on System z today using Bochs, the Linux open source IA-32 emulator, but it qualifies as a Bad Idea due to the performance. It's certainly interesting from an academic perspective, but it doesn't meet the needs of business. So we await Mantissa's offering with bated breath - to see if we can get the utility of x86 with the management characteristics and scalability of System z, at a cost people can afford. Even the Xen solutions do not do cross-architecture virtualization. If you run Xen on x86, you get x86. If you run it on Power, you get Power. If it were to run on System z, you would get z/Architecture. I keep waiting for an operating system written in Java with a byte-code-interpreting CPU! Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 begin:vcard fn:Barton Robinson n:Robinson;Barton adr;dom:;;PO 390640;Mountain View;CA;94039-0640 email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Sr. Architect tel;work:650-964-8867 note:If you can't measure it, I'm just not interested x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://velocitysoftware.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Eh, Barton, you mean 1 Intel 2ghz core, don't you? Assuming an Intel server to be 2 quad-core sockets, that would be almost 1 z10 IFL versus 1 Intel server. Or do I completely misunderstand you? Best regards, Pieter Harder [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel +31-73-6837133 / +31-6-47272537 -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Namens Barton Robinson Verzonden: dinsdag 11 november 2008 22:35 Aan: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Onderwerp: Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR Academic in the fact that it wouldn't make sense from a business perspective. Simple arithmetic: Emulation normally takes an order of magnitude more cycles. Thus a workload that consumes 10% of a 2Ghz intel processor would consume 1/2 of a z10 IFL. Even with the new low price for z10 IFL, making a business case would be difficult. The Mantissa website seems to focus on education - one class can have their intel servers, then when the class is over, the next class can have their intel servers - that could make business sense if academia looks for business sense - but VMWare is likely going to be a better business case. If Mantissa is very good at miracles and they get only 2 times the cycle requirement, with servers that are 10% busy, assuming 2ghz processors, one z10 IFL will max out replacing 10 intel servers. I will be eagerly waiting to see some real performance data. (And of course when someone asked to put up open solaris on our z9, i quickly said yes as performance will be interesting i am sure). Brabant Water N.V. Postbus 1068 5200 BC 's-Hertogenbosch http://www.brabantwater.nl Handelsregister: 16005077 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Regarding QEMU, the overhead is not that big. On a z/990 on an LPAR with 2 IFLs it consumed 50% during installation. Afterwards as long as its idle it doesn't take too much processing power. But as mentioned in one of the other posts, z/VOS sounds really interesting. BR Florian On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 5:52 PM, David Boyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So my question is: do any of you know any way to achieve this invention our customer demands from us ? Bochs works, but at a tremendous overhead cost -- on a MP3000 it was just about 2 full CPUs to run one Windows instance. It's not as bad now, but it still is a pretty significant hit. QEMU also works (at least on OpenSolaris it does), but with similar performance penalties. You don't say what the workload is, but you should strongly consider moving it native and getting rid of the Windows pieces ASAP. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- Best regards Florian Bilek -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
On Tuesday, 11/11/2008 at 02:36 EST, Berry van Sleeuwen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I too don't consider x86 emulation to meet business needs. It would be interesting to see if it will run from a specialist point of view. But for production loads I want the software to run with as little overhead as possible. Emulating an x86, or emulating any type of CPU for that matter, to run mission critical software will just be too expensive. Therefore, you'd be better off moving the workload to a native zseries application than to run an emulated processor to do the same thing. I'm not quite ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater as we like to say. Emulation is fine as long as it *fast enough*. That it can be faster isn't particularly important as long as, as Barton points out, the economics of getting from too slow to fast enough makes sense. I think it's safe to say that native performance will always be faster, but faster isn't always the goal (sometimes it is). Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Oh, I see. I feared that. Certainly I agree the proper thing would be to migrate the workload instead of keeping the same philosophy but... the customer is always right. OK, thank you very much for your help, gentlemen. BRGDS, José R. Barón Dpto. Sistemas CALCULO S.A. Tel. 91 330 86 44 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] P No imprima este e-mail si no es realmente necesario. Do not print this e-mail unless really necessary. -Mensaje original- De: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Mark Post Enviado el: martes, 11 de noviembre de 2008 17:12 Para: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Asunto: Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR On 11/11/2008 at 10:47 AM, jose raul baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -snip- So my question is: do any of you know any way to achieve this invention our customer demands from us ? Currently, no, there is no way to do this. That may be changing in the future, if the folks from Mantissa are successful. But as of today, the best you can do is migrate the workload to Linux, not the Windows operating system itself. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
So my question is: do any of you know any way to achieve this invention our customer demands from us ? Bochs works, but at a tremendous overhead cost -- on a MP3000 it was just about 2 full CPUs to run one Windows instance. It's not as bad now, but it still is a pretty significant hit. QEMU also works (at least on OpenSolaris it does), but with similar performance penalties. You don't say what the workload is, but you should strongly consider moving it native and getting rid of the Windows pieces ASAP. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Simple arithmetic: Emulation normally takes an order of magnitude more cycles. Thus a workload that consumes 10% of a 2Ghz intel processor would consume 1/2 of a z10 IFL. Even Good JIT engine emulation these days is a lot lot better than that. You do need a lot of memory to make that work well. You have another big problem as well - PC applications are still mostly built and tuned on the basis that CPU is cheap, idle time doesn't matter, memory bandwidth is poor, and memory capacity is huge. Not exactly 390 compatible assumptions and ones emulation will magnify. Alan -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Well, this sure looks like a way of turning the BSOD into the BIG BLUE Screen Of Death. On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 10:47 AM, jose raul baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi List, we have recently been asked to virtualize a windows server under SLES9 Linux running in a z/VM environment. In other words: - A zSeries system running - a z/VM system running - a SLES9 Linux running - a windows (XP server I suppose) Granted, the problem I see with this is that Windows isn't likely to EVER be VM friendly (as I recall there is no license to run it that way unless Windows is the Host OS) so this might be entertaining as a means of showing off, but, for production? I'll grant that a Windows Outage (OK, OUTLOOK or LOOK OUT!) server would not give you much choice of Operating System to provide full service. (I have, in my current gig, had to jump from Loathed Note to Outlook... I agree w/ my son-in-law that switching to PROFS would not have impacted personal efficiency half as much.) If you MUST use MicroSoft products and applications you are not working towards interoperability. Like a railroad, they've set their gauge to be just a LITTLE bit off from the other most popular guages... - soup -- John R. Campbell Speaker to Machines souperb at gmail dot com MacOS X proved it was easier to make Unix user-friendly than to fix Windows -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 12:10 AM, Alan Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good JIT engine emulation these days is a lot lot better than that. You do need a lot of memory to make that work well. Some popular modern techniques around JIT do not work very well in a shared environment, as we found with Java. But the idea is technically interesting for sure. Rob -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR
Hertz are hertz, but don't make the assumption that on intel, adding a processor doubles the throughput. The target market for x86 emulation would be older processors in need of upgrade - not new ones. Nobody who wants to impress their management should be recommending this solution until it's proven viable. Harder, Pieter wrote: Eh, Barton, you mean 1 Intel 2ghz core, don't you? Assuming an Intel server to be 2 quad-core sockets, that would be almost 1 z10 IFL versus 1 Intel server. Or do I completely misunderstand you? Best regards, Pieter Harder [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel +31-73-6837133 / +31-6-47272537 -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Namens Barton Robinson Verzonden: dinsdag 11 november 2008 22:35 Aan: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU Onderwerp: Re: How to virtualize Windows under SLES Linux on zSeries - PJBR Academic in the fact that it wouldn't make sense from a business perspective. Simple arithmetic: Emulation normally takes an order of magnitude more cycles. Thus a workload that consumes 10% of a 2Ghz intel processor would consume 1/2 of a z10 IFL. Even with the new low price for z10 IFL, making a business case would be difficult. The Mantissa website seems to focus on education - one class can have their intel servers, then when the class is over, the next class can have their intel servers - that could make business sense if academia looks for business sense - but VMWare is likely going to be a better business case. If Mantissa is very good at miracles and they get only 2 times the cycle requirement, with servers that are 10% busy, assuming 2ghz processors, one z10 IFL will max out replacing 10 intel servers. I will be eagerly waiting to see some real performance data. (And of course when someone asked to put up open solaris on our z9, i quickly said yes as performance will be interesting i am sure). Brabant Water N.V. Postbus 1068 5200 BC 's-Hertogenbosch http://www.brabantwater.nl Handelsregister: 16005077 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 begin:vcard fn:Barton Robinson n:Robinson;Barton adr;dom:;;PO 390640;Mountain View;CA;94039-0640 email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Sr. Architect tel;work:650-964-8867 note:If you can't measure it, I'm just not interested x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://velocitysoftware.com version:2.1 end:vcard
