Re: [WSG] Using list items for horizontal navigation
Stevio wrote: Hi Stephen, Here [1] is an explanation of why the padding on your list items is operating in a slightly odd way. When you change the li or the a within the li to display: block and then float it, your problems should disappear. [1] http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/inline/ Thanks Russ, I was able to use the basis of that to sort things out. I do have one problem however. The surrounding div of the navigation links (with a background colour) is not stretching around the floated link elements, so my nice visual effect of the background colour (which also has a bottom border another colour) is not being seen. Any suggestions for the best way to do that? I found one solution which uses a hr element after the links, but I'm not convinced by it. Thanks, Stephen Hard to tell without a link (couldn't find your original post?) but if you have a div which contains nothing but floated elements, you'll have to add a clearing element below your links but within the div to make it 'stretch' around its contents. I guess an hr would do that, but it's not very elegant... Try this for starters: http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] In the 'Wow, if only everyone did this category...
Kat wrote: http://www.omnivision.com.au/safari/resize.png http://www.omnivision.com.au/safari/extreme.png N Gday Nick, I am getting a 404 on the resize.png? Kat Unh. Try these: http://www.omnivision.com.au/safari/resized.htm http://www.omnivision.com.au/safari/extreme.htm Apologies. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Getting the layout to work and with all browsers
David Cameron wrote: The pertinent CSS file is www.camieabz.co.uk/menutest/menustyle.css and is solely for the menu section of the styling. There may be bits and pieces in the other style sheet which need to come out. There's bits and pieces in this one which need to come out, too. For instance, there are multiple, conflicting instances of padding declared in a number of rules. Keeping your css clean makes it much easier to debug. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] In the 'Wow, if only everyone did this category...
On 10 Oct 2006, at 12:07 PM, Lachlan Hunt wrote: Can anyone take pity on us without Safari and post a screen capture somewhere, please? http://lachy.id.au/lib/images/2006/safari-multibg-image-20061010 ...morphs to this, seamlessly, on resize... http://www.omnivision.com.au/safari/resize.png ...and to this, even if you get carried away. http://www.omnivision.com.au/safari/extreme.png N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Noise (was) Accessible, lightweight JavaScript...
John 'Max' Maxwell wrote: Al Sparber wrote: Thanks in advance for not responding and taking this any more off-topic than it already is. Sorry, I realise that wasn't sent to me Al (despite being part of the 'open' forum it was sent out on) - but I am going to have to respond to this just on the grounds of HATING people who think themselves so important that they have the right to say the above! I had to leave the Freelancers forum because there were so many pretentious tossers who used to end their posts with ... and that's the end of the matter ... who ARE you people? Absolutely remarkable ... do you do that in real life? If you are in the pub having a discussion, do you end your 'preaching' with ... and let THAT be an end to it and run off to the gents for a smoke? I come to these places to learn and luckily I do meet some genuinely talented people who are successful in this trade and for that I guess it's all worth it - but by god there are some tossers in these places. Jeez, John - take a breath! This is a community with over 3000 members. The chances of you thinking that one or two of them are 'tossers' is quite high, I'd say. Pretty much like 'real life', really. I think some of the posts are ridiculous, too, but I don't jump in and mouth off at every one - because that creates just too much noise. If you must berate/insult/browbeat members because you don't like their tone, or what they have to say, contact them offlist. Then, of course, if you don't like it here, you can always just go away... And let THAT be an end to it - on the list, at least. (Now watch this thread get closed - as it should be.) N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] OS9 browsers (was) *Pure* CSS drop down menu
Thierry Koblentz wrote: In my book, that goes against accessibility. It has nothing to do with your example of DVD and TV from the 60's, it has to do with real people who are stuck with OS 9. For them, ie 5 is the best (only) browser. Let's refer to them as the technology impaired... Don't know, my guess is that a browser that is not even supported by its vendor any longer is not really on the main Radar. The Argument that IE is the only OS9 browser is not true, iCab 3 runs nicely on OS9 and passes Acid2. Did iCab ship with the OS (honnest question, I don't know)? And is it considered an A-grade browser? No. OS7/8 shipped with Netscape as the default browser until Bill Gates threw some money at Apple to help keep them afloat, at which time, and as part of the deal, IE was then also supplied with the OS. I *think* it was around the time OS9 was introduced. A-grade? Not sure what that means... But I do recall that when IE5/Mac was released, it was the browser that (then) had the best Standards support going - not that 'Standards' existed then, except to a very small minority... Real-world reality check: I've never had a client yet who even knew that iCab existed. In my experience, the vast majority of the public (who we build sites for, after all) use the default browser that comes with the OS, and are not aware (or interested) that alternatives even exist. I think it's important to remember that the developers who subscribe to this list live in a somewhat rarified atmosphere, compared to Mr Mrs Joe Public. The detailed and sometimes esoteric discussions that we have here have little or no bearing on the average web surfer's perception of the medium. All they know is that a site 'works', or it doesn't. Our perception of the Web, and what can and can't be done, is totally unknown to them. And they don't care... '...not on the main Radar...' Certainly it's in a minority, but there's plenty of people (school students, e.g.) who *are* stuck with OS9/IE5 because they have no choice. I don't think we should ignore them just because their software is out of date. Isn't part of the Standards ethic to deliver content to all visitors, regardless of browsing device? It's easy enough to hide your CSS (for layout) from IE5/Mac, and deliver only typographically styled content. It may not look as pretty, but it's accessible... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera 9 Bug
On 25 Aug 2006, at 1:56 PM, Geoff Pack wrote: Only seems to be an issue with inline styles. Moral: always use a closing semi-colon. Moral: don't use inline styles. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE5.2/Mac... How sites deal with a dead browser
On 22 Aug 2006, at 1:28 PM, Micky Hulse wrote: Nick Gleitzman wrote: Know of any other sites that have completely dropped CSS support for IE5.2/Mac and/or IE5.0/PC? Re IE5/Mac: see the thread from August 4, 'Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)'. Ah, hehe, sorry if I brought-up a convo that has been already started. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was criticising; that previous thread doesn't really answer your question anyway, but it does give you some options (and rationale) on how to go about it. Just thought you'd be interested. Reading that thread now. I guess I am just a bit surprised to see more and more sites doing something to force their users to upgrade. I guess if I were an IE 5.2/Mac user, I would prefer this over seeing a broken layout. Hmm... 'force' is too strong a word. We should never 'force' our visitors to do anything! But *inviting* them to upgrade by serving a plain text site - nothing wrong with that. Absolutely preferable to a broken layout, IMO. Oh - and a recent peruse of one of my sites' stats showed a (thankfully singular) visitor using ... wait for it ... Explorer 1.0. I guess there's no helping some people... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 bug?
Andrew Ingram wrote: The people who made the code originally were using left: -999em to hide the menu, the reasoning was so that screen-readers could still access them (as opposed to display: none), acting on a hunch I switched to the display: none method and everything started working. Hm, interesting. Did you try -999px? The problem may lie with the browser calculating (or not) what -999em actually is? N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
SunUp wrote: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Amen to that. There's no reason to be forced to support hardware it your department won't make allowances for testing on it. If they want you to support it, they need to make that possible. They couldn't care less. I'M the one trying to do The Right Thing and support what I can, but they don't understand and have no desire to understand about browser support. They support IE, that's it, and that's all they care about. That's a head-in-the-sand attitude that is disturbingly widespread. The MS marketing machine has done an astonishingly successful job of convincing a significant proportion of the world that 'This is a PC, this is what it does. Don't think; just use it as it is.' It's understandable to get this attitude from home users who don't know better, but in a business environment it's just plain crazy. It's like opening a retail shop and then barring anyone who chooses to wear red socks from entering. Why would you willingly and knowingly ignore *any* source of potential business? I think it's an important part of our job as designers/developers to educate out clients, bosses, and site visitors about the medium. After all, whether we're freelancers or employees, aren't we hired because we know more about this stuff than the person hiring us? I *always* include, at the preproduction stage of a project, a clear explanation to the client that their site will NOT look the same to all of their visitors, and I show them samples of previous sites to illustrate the kind of (usually minor) variations they might expect - including sparsely or unstyled versions in older browsers. You need to find someone in management who cares enough about their business to allow you to reach the largest number of potential customers possible, and explain carefully and simply that their IE-only approach is hurting their business. If you can't, frankly, you should give careful thought to whether these are people that you want to work with long-term. Easy to say, I know, but you'll discover, eventually, that there's a lot of power in saying no - and you'll certainly sleep better at night. As a freelance, I'm now (thankfully) able to choose who I work with. If they get what I do, fine. If they don't, and they resist my approach as your bosses appear to be doing, I Just Walk Away. Some people just refuse to be educated, even if it's to their detriment. I've had an enormous struggle getting our department permission to use Firefox, and the rest of the staff here (3000-odd people) don't have a choice because the Firefox site is banned. Banned?! What for? What kind of nazis *are* these people? Is this some kind of perceived security issue? And when you say the FF site, do you mean using FF as a browser? I feel badly that I can't do what I know I should be doing. As of today, IE5/Mac users will get no styles at all when they view our site. That's all I can do, and I guess it's better than it being totally broken. It certainly is, but it's not *all* you can do. If you track back through this thread, you'll see that my original suggestion was to serve IE5Mac typographic styles but not layout styles - you can still make a web page that looks a whole lot nicer than a completely unstyled one; you just have to check that your content still works OK when it's delivered in linear fashion. sunny(fed-up-with-it) Don't be; it's a learning experience for you too - embrace it! And as dealing with and educating bosses/clients is probably drifting a bit OT for this list (although I think the concept of 'selling' Standards is perfectly relevant), feel free to contact me offlist if you'd like to continue the discussion. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Default browser stylesheet values
Paul Hempsall wrote: Just wondering if anyone is aware of any web resources that detail the default style values given to various elements by browsers (specifically IE6)? For example, what are the default IE6 CSS values for body, h1-6, p, etc? Sandra, Samuel: I think you're misinterpreting Paul's question. I understand him to be asking what the defaults are for various browsers when *nothing* is specified by CSS. Not that I have an answer - does anyone know if browsers have a set of inbuilt CSS rules that they refer to in the absence of any overriding stylesheet file? Hmm - OK, answers own question - FF on my Mac, with a little digging (Firefox.app Show Package Contents Contents/MacOS/res/) coughs up a file called html.css - which *appears* to contain the defaults. There's a bunch of others, too: forms.css mathml.css platform-forms.css quirk.css ua.css viewsource.css Caveat: I can code web pages, but I can't build browsers. Edit at your own risk! N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Paul Collins wrote: so when clients ask me what to build for I can justify building for IE5 Mac. Given that IE5/Mac is now officially obsolete, why not group it with other dinosaurs (NN4.x et al) with flaky CSS support and filter your CSS delivery so that browser only receives a stylesheet for nice typographic presentation, but not the full layout? This is what I've started doing... Generate the CSS for typography, bg colour/s, etc (e.g. basic.css) and a separate file for (e.g.) layout.css. Use the Tantek hack in the call for the second file in the head of your (X)HTML file, thus: link rel='stylesheet' type='text/css' media='all' href='inc/basic.css' / style type='text/css' media='screen'/*\*/@import inc/layout.css;/**//style and voila, IE5/Mac only recognises the first file. It saves hours of trial and error trying to get layouts to work in IE5M as they do in compliant browsers, and keeps your layout.css file clear of multiple instances of the Tantek hack. And as a bonus, because of the media attributes, your print styles are taken care of as well... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Div names
TuteC wrote: Hello all! I have a rather simple question: does it have any semantical meaning the name of a div? For example, if I have a div class=Distributorsh3Distributors/h3/div, will the search engine understand the name of the div or di I need that h3 to do that? How about h3 title='Distributors'Distributors/h3? You really don't need the enclosing div. I'm not sure whether the title will help SE effectiveness, but IMHO title is semantically stronger than class... I think the main semantic weight comes more from the h3 itself than from any CSS attributes it might have declared, though (although I'm happy to be corrected). I know it has little sense and certainly I use also the h3, but it was just a question I had. Also, as h3 means Heading 3, what thas div mean? Division. From Wikipedia: DIV, an HTML tag which implements a generic block level object. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIV_%28HTML_tag%29 HTH N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Steve Green wrote: I would hardly call OSX an 'upgrade' - it's a major investment. It's not just the £100 or so for the OS, it's the cost of all the new applications like an office suite and all the other stuff you need plus the installation time and hassle of migrating email accounts etc. I know only too well... My tongue *was* firmly in cheek in calling this an upgrade... I don't have current figure for OS9 usage but in June 2004 (i.e. 3 years after OS X launched) Steve Jobs announced that 50% of the 24 million Mac users were now using OS X. That means 50% were still on OS9 or earlier. ...and that's 2 years ago now - a long time in computing! In the developed world we're used to having pretty up to date kit but don't forget that a large proportion of the world's population can't afford this and still use much older kit, often machines that have been discarded here precisely because the software cannot be upgraded. OK, sure - which brings me back to my suggestion of delivering a no-frills version of sites to people with no-frills gear. For the sake of nine characters, you can make sure your sites are accessible (=usable in this context) by the max number of visitors. Not as pretty, maybe, but what's more important - the layout or the content? N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] are transitional doctypes quickmode
Tee G.Peng wrote: Hi, Please tolerate my ignorance. I always thought transitional doctypes are quirkmode but today I was told it's not, the quirkmode is when a page has no doctype declared. tee Google is your friend... http://www.google.com/search?client=safarirls=enq=quirks+modeie=UTF -8oe=UTF-8 N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] [WSG CMS] Etomite CMS
Ryan Moore wrote: Hopefully this is not off-topic, It is. Go to the WSG site and subscribe to the CMS list. This was discussed - and moved over to that list - just a few days ago! C'mon, people. Too many posts recently have been OT, or simple thanks messages which would be better sent directly to their intended recipients. Can we cut some of this noise, please? It's very frustrating. but every CMS in my belief she be equipped with a powerful WYSIWYG editor. What is the preferred editor some may use in their cms' that keep things standard. I'd be interested in an editor that will validate XHTML strict. Ryan snip Thx - Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS navigation pushing contents of next div over in IE6
David Sam Butler wrote: Hi All, I'm trying to implement a CSS/javascript dropdown navigation (as shown at the seminars recently) and all's well in IE7, firefox and safari, though in IE6 the navigation div pushes the content of the adjoining div over to the right by a few pixels. I've tried to adjust the padding, width and margin of all the elements but it's still happening. anyone got any ideas: 3px Jog Bug: http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/threepxtest.html N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Colour blindness simulator
Google Colour blindness simulator and you get over 300 results. Can we look there, and not list them here one at a time? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Thanks N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Font property
On 6 Jun 2006, at 10:13 PM, Mark Harris wrote: Herrod, Lisa wrote: Wow, That's fontastic! thanks lachlan hardy you're a fontain of knowledge Fonting hell, Lisa! I think you may be endangering the fontamental nature of this list. Posts of this type rarely carry the weight we're accustomed to and we wind up being cursive towards the poster. You must be working from a different script, but I don't think it's leading anywhere. -- mark Mark, you're obviously a man of great character... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Credit where credit is due - (was) MSN in bad shape
Vincent Hasselgård wrote: Explorer 5.2 for Mac is a buggy piece of crap software :) That's not the first time I've seen a comment like that on this list - and this time round I have to say I think that's a bit harsh. Were you building sites when IE5/Mac was released? It was a major step forward in the development of browser software's support for the tools we're now all using on a daily basis.Think about what it replaced. IE4.x on Mac: don't even think about it. IE5.0 on Win: not much better. Try running your valid, well-formed code through it and then tell me about bugs. This concept called Web Standards has always been a continuum - and, at the time, IE5 made life better than it had been. I think that Tantek still deserves respect (and our thanks) for what was, in the context of its era, a standout product. Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] injecting a bit of humor into your css
Brian Cummiskey wrote: Notice the site? Notice the hack? http://connect.microsoft.com/Styles/GeneralStyles.css .ViewFeedback-Discussion-AddNewCommentLink ? .FeedbackOverviewUserOptionsHeader ? .AdvancedSearchSearchOptionSection-Description ? Damn, here I was worrying about using .img instead of .image to save bandwidth. Now I can use .ImageOfSiteThatUsesRidiculouslyLongClassnamesInTheirCSS. Hoo-yah! N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] injecting a bit of humor into your css
Chris Littell wrote: Isn't adding jokes into your own code akin to telling your self a joke? I don't know of a single client of mine who knows that View Source is even available as a browsing command. Everyone on this list does (or should). Code comments and css files are part of this whole great infotainment. Have a look at Zeldman's, for a start... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Forums
Chris Littell wrote: I ask a question, and you respond by basically telling me to 'get lost'? Hardly. I got that Christian was just pointing out that you have a choice. If you don't want a list format, you don't have to have one. It's up to you. Also, if you read the guidelines, you'll see that such questions are off-topic, and should be directed off-list to the list admins. That way, the amount of OT noise is kept to a minimum. Which I've just contributed to... gahhh!! N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] getting an a
Kevin Futter wrote: Russ HTML element family councillor Of course, Russ means family counsellor :-) Not if he was laying down the law... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
