Re: unnecissary voices/foreign language synthesis
Justin I don't think anyone would disagree, but I think I and others have pointed out that there may be a number of reasons for why Apple does not do all the things we expect or feel they should. You have to remember Apple whether we agree or disagree is a pretty secretive company, so they aren't very forthcoming in a lot of cases with what they have going on. That is why I read some of the articles I have forwarded to the list because at least most that information appears to be pretty accurate. Of course we'll probably never hear the reason, it may just suddenly appear one day when you least expect it. Don't give up hope and keep pestering them, I think they respond to a good pestering at times. :) On Aug 25, 2009, at 4:22 PM, Justin Harford wrote: > > Hi there Will > > It's as Anne said, it's quite disingenuous of them to act as though > they never knew we wanted those voices to be included. Of course they > knew. There must be a reason behind the decision not to include them > be it technical or political. > > Did Anne give you a french braille table? I wonder if they might have > done one in Spanish, or if other braille languages will be supported > in SnowLeopard? > > Quite honestly guise, I think Apple really are on the ball with > accessibility. You know the first iPhone I ever used was the one I > pre-ordered for myself. I had that much confidence in Apple that I > was fine with ordering an iPhone with the accessibility enhancements > without seeing them in advance, but just because a company can go so > far with accessibility, doesn't mean they can do no wrong, and the > user base should not be afraid to point out when they do do wrong. I > try to do this in as civil a way as I know. If you don't agree with > this, then let me know. > > Regards > Justin Harford > On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:14 PM, william lomas wrote: > >> >> Justin and all, they told me that they would consider it in the >> future >> it is as though they had not even known we wanted these features. >> Also, braille support although thanks to Anne and her husband, we are >> able to get the french and other language tables, through them. >> Will >> >> On 25 Aug 2009, at 21:09, Justin Harford wrote: >> >>> >>> If you checked the sending information for tha message, you would >>> see >>> that I CCed accessibility, along with the other messages I and >>> others >>> have sent them in the past. >>> >>> Regards >>> Justin >>> On Aug 25, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Scott Howell wrote: >>> And as I keep saying, make your concerns known. It's one thing to state your feelings here, but quite another in stating them to Apple. If enough people really want this and write to Apple, then there is a very good chance it will appear on the right radar screens. There is a number of features that ended up in Snow Leopard as a direct result of people making their wishes known. So, send your suggestion to accessibil...@apple.com and keep reminding them from time to time. If you think about it, this is how many features find their ways into many products. On Aug 25, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Justin Harford wrote: > > I've been thinking more about this other language synthesizers > issue. > I wonder how hard it would be for apple to include by default the > voices that it uses for the iPhone on the installation CD of its > operating system. That way, a blind person could manage bios and > system installation in multiple languages no problem. And they > would > be low quality voices right? So they wouldn't take that much > extra > space. Then there could be some way by which we only put certain > languages on the hard drive through installation. So maybe, if I > install my OS in Spanish, the CD will automatically only install > the > Spanish synthesizers. Or maybe, it could install all synthesizers > by > default. This would be nice for public computers, but if > individuals > wanted the extra space, they could opt to not install those > synthesizers as they would opt to not install the extra language > localizations. > > Maybe I might offer another perspective on this. On no screen > reader > has there been offered a high quality voice like Alex. In a way, > apple are already stomping on the shoes of Acapela Group slightly > by > offering an american synthesizer which far out does anything their > american voices could dish out. I think that standing behind > apple > in > not including other language synthesizers in Mac OS X because of > fear > of hurting Acapela is a silly notion as it places the interests > of > business before the consumer, but let's discuss that anyway since > it > is a concern. Usually the place of a company like Acapela would > be > supplying high quality
Re: unnecissary voices/foreign language synthesis
Good for you Justin, I hadn't looked at the CC field, so keep bugging them. On Aug 25, 2009, at 4:09 PM, Justin Harford wrote: > > If you checked the sending information for tha message, you would see > that I CCed accessibility, along with the other messages I and others > have sent them in the past. > > Regards > Justin > On Aug 25, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Scott Howell wrote: --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: unnecissary voices/foreign language synthesis
Hi there Will It's as Anne said, it's quite disingenuous of them to act as though they never knew we wanted those voices to be included. Of course they knew. There must be a reason behind the decision not to include them be it technical or political. Did Anne give you a french braille table? I wonder if they might have done one in Spanish, or if other braille languages will be supported in SnowLeopard? Quite honestly guise, I think Apple really are on the ball with accessibility. You know the first iPhone I ever used was the one I pre-ordered for myself. I had that much confidence in Apple that I was fine with ordering an iPhone with the accessibility enhancements without seeing them in advance, but just because a company can go so far with accessibility, doesn't mean they can do no wrong, and the user base should not be afraid to point out when they do do wrong. I try to do this in as civil a way as I know. If you don't agree with this, then let me know. Regards Justin Harford On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:14 PM, william lomas wrote: > > Justin and all, they told me that they would consider it in the future > it is as though they had not even known we wanted these features. > Also, braille support although thanks to Anne and her husband, we are > able to get the french and other language tables, through them. > Will > > On 25 Aug 2009, at 21:09, Justin Harford wrote: > >> >> If you checked the sending information for tha message, you would see >> that I CCed accessibility, along with the other messages I and others >> have sent them in the past. >> >> Regards >> Justin >> On Aug 25, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Scott Howell wrote: >> >>> >>> And as I keep saying, make your concerns known. It's one thing to >>> state your feelings here, but quite another in stating them to >>> Apple. >>> If enough people really want this and write to Apple, then there >>> is a >>> very good chance it will appear on the right radar screens. There >>> is >>> a number of features that ended up in Snow Leopard as a direct >>> result >>> of people making their wishes known. So, send your suggestion to >>> accessibil...@apple.com >>> and keep reminding them from time to time. If you think about it, >>> this is how many features find their ways into many products. >>> On Aug 25, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Justin Harford wrote: >>> I've been thinking more about this other language synthesizers issue. I wonder how hard it would be for apple to include by default the voices that it uses for the iPhone on the installation CD of its operating system. That way, a blind person could manage bios and system installation in multiple languages no problem. And they would be low quality voices right? So they wouldn't take that much extra space. Then there could be some way by which we only put certain languages on the hard drive through installation. So maybe, if I install my OS in Spanish, the CD will automatically only install the Spanish synthesizers. Or maybe, it could install all synthesizers by default. This would be nice for public computers, but if individuals wanted the extra space, they could opt to not install those synthesizers as they would opt to not install the extra language localizations. Maybe I might offer another perspective on this. On no screen reader has there been offered a high quality voice like Alex. In a way, apple are already stomping on the shoes of Acapela Group slightly by offering an american synthesizer which far out does anything their american voices could dish out. I think that standing behind apple in not including other language synthesizers in Mac OS X because of fear of hurting Acapela is a silly notion as it places the interests of business before the consumer, but let's discuss that anyway since it is a concern. Usually the place of a company like Acapela would be supplying high quality speech synthesis, which it does very well, and the place of the company that produces the screen reader would be to just provide synthesis. Freedom scientific have offered foreign language with eloquence for a number of years now at no extra cost, and of course the same goes for all screen readers using ESpeak. The idea is that you get to listen to stuff read in the language of your choice, though it might not be the highest of quality. If you want high quality, you go to a company like Assistive Wear and buy the high quality Acapela voices. In a way, I would almost say that apple would have done better to have implemented the iPhone synthesis along side Fred and the other English voices, in stead of producing Alex, but that's neither here nor there. The bottom line is that Apple is a compan
Re: unnecissary voices/foreign language synthesis
Justin and all, they told me that they would consider it in the future it is as though they had not even known we wanted these features. Also, braille support although thanks to Anne and her husband, we are able to get the french and other language tables, through them. Will On 25 Aug 2009, at 21:09, Justin Harford wrote: > > If you checked the sending information for tha message, you would see > that I CCed accessibility, along with the other messages I and others > have sent them in the past. > > Regards > Justin > On Aug 25, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Scott Howell wrote: > >> >> And as I keep saying, make your concerns known. It's one thing to >> state your feelings here, but quite another in stating them to Apple. >> If enough people really want this and write to Apple, then there is a >> very good chance it will appear on the right radar screens. There is >> a number of features that ended up in Snow Leopard as a direct result >> of people making their wishes known. So, send your suggestion to >> accessibil...@apple.com >> and keep reminding them from time to time. If you think about it, >> this is how many features find their ways into many products. >> On Aug 25, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Justin Harford wrote: >> >>> >>> I've been thinking more about this other language synthesizers >>> issue. >>> I wonder how hard it would be for apple to include by default the >>> voices that it uses for the iPhone on the installation CD of its >>> operating system. That way, a blind person could manage bios and >>> system installation in multiple languages no problem. And they >>> would >>> be low quality voices right? So they wouldn't take that much extra >>> space. Then there could be some way by which we only put certain >>> languages on the hard drive through installation. So maybe, if I >>> install my OS in Spanish, the CD will automatically only install the >>> Spanish synthesizers. Or maybe, it could install all synthesizers >>> by >>> default. This would be nice for public computers, but if >>> individuals >>> wanted the extra space, they could opt to not install those >>> synthesizers as they would opt to not install the extra language >>> localizations. >>> >>> Maybe I might offer another perspective on this. On no screen >>> reader >>> has there been offered a high quality voice like Alex. In a way, >>> apple are already stomping on the shoes of Acapela Group slightly by >>> offering an american synthesizer which far out does anything their >>> american voices could dish out. I think that standing behind apple >>> in >>> not including other language synthesizers in Mac OS X because of >>> fear >>> of hurting Acapela is a silly notion as it places the interests of >>> business before the consumer, but let's discuss that anyway since it >>> is a concern. Usually the place of a company like Acapela would be >>> supplying high quality speech synthesis, which it does very well, >>> and >>> the place of the company that produces the screen reader would be to >>> just provide synthesis. Freedom scientific have offered foreign >>> language with eloquence for a number of years now at no extra cost, >>> and of course the same goes for all screen readers using ESpeak. >>> The >>> idea is that you get to listen to stuff read in the language of your >>> choice, though it might not be the highest of quality. If you want >>> high quality, you go to a company like Assistive Wear and buy the >>> high >>> quality Acapela voices. In a way, I would almost say that apple >>> would >>> have done better to have implemented the iPhone synthesis along side >>> Fred and the other English voices, in stead of producing Alex, but >>> that's neither here nor there. >>> >>> The bottom line is that Apple is a company which, by its actions, >>> seems to aim to serve an international customer base. It has been >>> possible for many years for a person in France, Germany, or Japan or >>> where ever else to install and use the Mac OS in their native >>> language. I think that Apple has demonstrated that it understands >>> very well the importance of including a world market in its computer >>> revolution. In 2005, they demonstrated that they also understood >>> the >>> importance of including people who use their computers by >>> alternative >>> means. I remember an article from Apple to the developers a few >>> years >>> back, which characterized the last 20 years in these terms… in the >>> 90s >>> we were working on internationalizing computers so that people of >>> different nationalities could use them, then came the new millennium >>> where the new challenge has been working on making computers usable >>> by >>> people of different physical/sensory ability. One of the first >>> things >>> I noticed about my iPhone is that the accessibility menu is just >>> down >>> from international. >>> >>> It seems like then, apple understand accessibility and international >>> as two facets of a single goa
Re: unnecissary voices/foreign language synthesis
If you checked the sending information for tha message, you would see that I CCed accessibility, along with the other messages I and others have sent them in the past. Regards Justin On Aug 25, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Scott Howell wrote: > > And as I keep saying, make your concerns known. It's one thing to > state your feelings here, but quite another in stating them to Apple. > If enough people really want this and write to Apple, then there is a > very good chance it will appear on the right radar screens. There is > a number of features that ended up in Snow Leopard as a direct result > of people making their wishes known. So, send your suggestion to > accessibil...@apple.com > and keep reminding them from time to time. If you think about it, > this is how many features find their ways into many products. > On Aug 25, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Justin Harford wrote: > >> >> I've been thinking more about this other language synthesizers issue. >> I wonder how hard it would be for apple to include by default the >> voices that it uses for the iPhone on the installation CD of its >> operating system. That way, a blind person could manage bios and >> system installation in multiple languages no problem. And they would >> be low quality voices right? So they wouldn't take that much extra >> space. Then there could be some way by which we only put certain >> languages on the hard drive through installation. So maybe, if I >> install my OS in Spanish, the CD will automatically only install the >> Spanish synthesizers. Or maybe, it could install all synthesizers by >> default. This would be nice for public computers, but if individuals >> wanted the extra space, they could opt to not install those >> synthesizers as they would opt to not install the extra language >> localizations. >> >> Maybe I might offer another perspective on this. On no screen reader >> has there been offered a high quality voice like Alex. In a way, >> apple are already stomping on the shoes of Acapela Group slightly by >> offering an american synthesizer which far out does anything their >> american voices could dish out. I think that standing behind apple >> in >> not including other language synthesizers in Mac OS X because of fear >> of hurting Acapela is a silly notion as it places the interests of >> business before the consumer, but let's discuss that anyway since it >> is a concern. Usually the place of a company like Acapela would be >> supplying high quality speech synthesis, which it does very well, and >> the place of the company that produces the screen reader would be to >> just provide synthesis. Freedom scientific have offered foreign >> language with eloquence for a number of years now at no extra cost, >> and of course the same goes for all screen readers using ESpeak. The >> idea is that you get to listen to stuff read in the language of your >> choice, though it might not be the highest of quality. If you want >> high quality, you go to a company like Assistive Wear and buy the >> high >> quality Acapela voices. In a way, I would almost say that apple >> would >> have done better to have implemented the iPhone synthesis along side >> Fred and the other English voices, in stead of producing Alex, but >> that's neither here nor there. >> >> The bottom line is that Apple is a company which, by its actions, >> seems to aim to serve an international customer base. It has been >> possible for many years for a person in France, Germany, or Japan or >> where ever else to install and use the Mac OS in their native >> language. I think that Apple has demonstrated that it understands >> very well the importance of including a world market in its computer >> revolution. In 2005, they demonstrated that they also understood the >> importance of including people who use their computers by alternative >> means. I remember an article from Apple to the developers a few >> years >> back, which characterized the last 20 years in these terms… in the >> 90s >> we were working on internationalizing computers so that people of >> different nationalities could use them, then came the new millennium >> where the new challenge has been working on making computers usable >> by >> people of different physical/sensory ability. One of the first >> things >> I noticed about my iPhone is that the accessibility menu is just down >> from international. >> >> It seems like then, apple understand accessibility and international >> as two facets of a single goal, to make their computers usable by as >> many people as possible. They should understand that accessibility >> and international are practically the same thing because there are >> people with disabilities all over the world, not just in the United >> States. So yes, apple surely understand this, then there must be >> some >> reason as was already suggested for why they insist on not >> implementing foreign language synthesizers. In conclusion, I think >> it
Re: unnecissary voices/foreign language synthesis
And as I keep saying, make your concerns known. It's one thing to state your feelings here, but quite another in stating them to Apple. If enough people really want this and write to Apple, then there is a very good chance it will appear on the right radar screens. There is a number of features that ended up in Snow Leopard as a direct result of people making their wishes known. So, send your suggestion to accessibil...@apple.com and keep reminding them from time to time. If you think about it, this is how many features find their ways into many products. On Aug 25, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Justin Harford wrote: > > I've been thinking more about this other language synthesizers issue. > I wonder how hard it would be for apple to include by default the > voices that it uses for the iPhone on the installation CD of its > operating system. That way, a blind person could manage bios and > system installation in multiple languages no problem. And they would > be low quality voices right? So they wouldn't take that much extra > space. Then there could be some way by which we only put certain > languages on the hard drive through installation. So maybe, if I > install my OS in Spanish, the CD will automatically only install the > Spanish synthesizers. Or maybe, it could install all synthesizers by > default. This would be nice for public computers, but if individuals > wanted the extra space, they could opt to not install those > synthesizers as they would opt to not install the extra language > localizations. > > Maybe I might offer another perspective on this. On no screen reader > has there been offered a high quality voice like Alex. In a way, > apple are already stomping on the shoes of Acapela Group slightly by > offering an american synthesizer which far out does anything their > american voices could dish out. I think that standing behind apple in > not including other language synthesizers in Mac OS X because of fear > of hurting Acapela is a silly notion as it places the interests of > business before the consumer, but let's discuss that anyway since it > is a concern. Usually the place of a company like Acapela would be > supplying high quality speech synthesis, which it does very well, and > the place of the company that produces the screen reader would be to > just provide synthesis. Freedom scientific have offered foreign > language with eloquence for a number of years now at no extra cost, > and of course the same goes for all screen readers using ESpeak. The > idea is that you get to listen to stuff read in the language of your > choice, though it might not be the highest of quality. If you want > high quality, you go to a company like Assistive Wear and buy the high > quality Acapela voices. In a way, I would almost say that apple would > have done better to have implemented the iPhone synthesis along side > Fred and the other English voices, in stead of producing Alex, but > that's neither here nor there. > > The bottom line is that Apple is a company which, by its actions, > seems to aim to serve an international customer base. It has been > possible for many years for a person in France, Germany, or Japan or > where ever else to install and use the Mac OS in their native > language. I think that Apple has demonstrated that it understands > very well the importance of including a world market in its computer > revolution. In 2005, they demonstrated that they also understood the > importance of including people who use their computers by alternative > means. I remember an article from Apple to the developers a few years > back, which characterized the last 20 years in these terms… in the 90s > we were working on internationalizing computers so that people of > different nationalities could use them, then came the new millennium > where the new challenge has been working on making computers usable by > people of different physical/sensory ability. One of the first things > I noticed about my iPhone is that the accessibility menu is just down > from international. > > It seems like then, apple understand accessibility and international > as two facets of a single goal, to make their computers usable by as > many people as possible. They should understand that accessibility > and international are practically the same thing because there are > people with disabilities all over the world, not just in the United > States. So yes, apple surely understand this, then there must be some > reason as was already suggested for why they insist on not > implementing foreign language synthesizers. In conclusion, I think it > would be nice that they should include low quality foreign language > synthesis in their OS, or if not that, at least they should give us a > straight forward explanation of why they refuse to do so. At least > this way, myself and others needn't be left so dumbfounded at the fact > that they would include such clever integration of foreign speech >
Re: unnecissary voices/foreign language synthesis
I've been thinking more about this other language synthesizers issue. I wonder how hard it would be for apple to include by default the voices that it uses for the iPhone on the installation CD of its operating system. That way, a blind person could manage bios and system installation in multiple languages no problem. And they would be low quality voices right? So they wouldn't take that much extra space. Then there could be some way by which we only put certain languages on the hard drive through installation. So maybe, if I install my OS in Spanish, the CD will automatically only install the Spanish synthesizers. Or maybe, it could install all synthesizers by default. This would be nice for public computers, but if individuals wanted the extra space, they could opt to not install those synthesizers as they would opt to not install the extra language localizations. Maybe I might offer another perspective on this. On no screen reader has there been offered a high quality voice like Alex. In a way, apple are already stomping on the shoes of Acapela Group slightly by offering an american synthesizer which far out does anything their american voices could dish out. I think that standing behind apple in not including other language synthesizers in Mac OS X because of fear of hurting Acapela is a silly notion as it places the interests of business before the consumer, but let's discuss that anyway since it is a concern. Usually the place of a company like Acapela would be supplying high quality speech synthesis, which it does very well, and the place of the company that produces the screen reader would be to just provide synthesis. Freedom scientific have offered foreign language with eloquence for a number of years now at no extra cost, and of course the same goes for all screen readers using ESpeak. The idea is that you get to listen to stuff read in the language of your choice, though it might not be the highest of quality. If you want high quality, you go to a company like Assistive Wear and buy the high quality Acapela voices. In a way, I would almost say that apple would have done better to have implemented the iPhone synthesis along side Fred and the other English voices, in stead of producing Alex, but that's neither here nor there. The bottom line is that Apple is a company which, by its actions, seems to aim to serve an international customer base. It has been possible for many years for a person in France, Germany, or Japan or where ever else to install and use the Mac OS in their native language. I think that Apple has demonstrated that it understands very well the importance of including a world market in its computer revolution. In 2005, they demonstrated that they also understood the importance of including people who use their computers by alternative means. I remember an article from Apple to the developers a few years back, which characterized the last 20 years in these terms… in the 90s we were working on internationalizing computers so that people of different nationalities could use them, then came the new millennium where the new challenge has been working on making computers usable by people of different physical/sensory ability. One of the first things I noticed about my iPhone is that the accessibility menu is just down from international. It seems like then, apple understand accessibility and international as two facets of a single goal, to make their computers usable by as many people as possible. They should understand that accessibility and international are practically the same thing because there are people with disabilities all over the world, not just in the United States. So yes, apple surely understand this, then there must be some reason as was already suggested for why they insist on not implementing foreign language synthesizers. In conclusion, I think it would be nice that they should include low quality foreign language synthesis in their OS, or if not that, at least they should give us a straight forward explanation of why they refuse to do so. At least this way, myself and others needn't be left so dumbfounded at the fact that they would include such clever integration of foreign speech synthesis and localization in their iPhone, and not in their computers. It really just doesn't make since. Regards Justin Harford On Aug 25, 2009, at 10:50 AM, Scott Howell wrote: > > I think those voices were included for other reasons and happen to > work with VO. Of course Bells for example serves no purpose for users > really, but I suspect they are again there for other purposes. Of > course you could always suggest to Apple they remove those voices if > no one really has a use for them and replace with other voices, which > support other languages. > On Aug 25, 2009, at 10:16 AM, william lomas wrote: > >> >> hi all I kno
