Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Michael Wiktowy]

On 8/31/06, Riku Voipio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
More likely manufacturers feel that there is valuable IP in their blobsand would prefer not to give it around to everyone for free, especiallyin a highly competitive market like wlan chipsets are.
I suspect that that is the case with the video driver binary blob people. With wlan chipsets working to output a standard signal, it is likely less the case. My impression is that wlan chipsets are nearly commodities at this point. However, I don't work in the field so don't know for sure.
However, getting a straight answer as to the real reason out of a company's legal department after it has been filtered through their marketing and communications department is  uummm ... challenging. :]Sometimes even people internal to the company can't get anything sensible.

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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Devesh Kothari]

ext Marius Gedminas wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 04:50:47PM +0100, Hugh Warrington wrote:
> > Andrew Flegg wrote:
> > >On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >>ext Christian Pernegger wrote:
> > >>>- setting up the developent environment was a bitch
> > >>
> > >>Could you please send me why ?
> > >>- Setting up ScratchBox ???
> > >>- Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ?
> > >>- Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr?
> > >>- Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ???
> > >>
> > >>I am asking you, so we improve it.
> > >
> > >It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script made
> > >it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why this
> > >isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of
> > >installing?
>
Quite a lot of the community
- does not really want to give away control to a installer script which
ask for "root" password.
- Also as pointed out, it also does not work well for software installed
outside the control of the package management system

Now my approach has been not to make installation very specific to
debian, so that people can at the most part install scratchbox on their
distribution of choice (non-debian too), and then inside SB they after
installing the debian devkit and the maemo rootstrap, get a sandboxed
debian environment.


> >
> > I didn't find copy-pasting ten or twenty lines of clear instructions
> > into a terminal window very taxing. In fact, as cross-compilation goes,
> > setting up and working within the recommended maemo environment is a
> breeze.
>
> People have different expectations.  I have come to expect one line of
> instructions: apt-get install package-name, and that's it.
>
> I do not like to run shell script that install software.  Package
> management systems are there for a reason.
>
> It is good that I can apt-get install scratchbox into my Ubuntu laptop.
> Figuring out *which* packages to install was a bit trickier
> (scratchbox-core scratchbox-devkit-debian scratchbox-libs
> scratchbox-toolchain-cs2005q3.2-glibc-i386
> scratchbox-toolchain-cs2005q3.2-glibc-arm).
>
> Would it be possible to prepare a Debian package that
>
>   * depends on all the necessary scratchbox packages
>   * asks via debconf for a list of users that you want to add to the
> sbox group and create scratchbox user accounts
>   * automates the scratchbox target creation and configuration
> (rootstrap, .bash_profile, etc.), maybe from the same postinst
> script, maybe from a separate shell script.
>   * includes the start-maemo-xephyr shell script.
>   * ships with a shell script that sets up scratchbox when you run it
> for the first time (adduser $USERNAME sbox
>
I think atleast that makes a lot of sense and would greatly improve
atleast the developers on debian system installation and getting started
experience a lot better. I will put it on my to-do list to explore.

> ?  The main question seems to be: can I tell /scratchbox/login to run
> some command (say, a shell script that calls the necessary sequence of
> sbox-config commands)?
>
I think that sould be possible

> I think the best user experience is
>
>   one command for installation (apt-get install maemo-scratchbox)
>   one command to start Xnest (maemo-xephyr?)
>   one command to start an i386 shell (maemo-386-shell)
>   one command to start an armel shell (maemo-armel-shell)
>
> No extra configuration required.
>
I agree

> Hm... looks like a worthy project for a weekend.
>
> A VMWare virtual appliance with scratchbox preconfigured would also be
> nice, I suppose, although personally I'm not interested in it.
>
What would be really interesting is to have VMWare appliance to run the
whole maemo development enviornment native and not inside yet another
sandbox (SB)
Devesh

> Marius Gedminas
> --
> The last good thing written in C was Franz Schubert's Symphony #9.
> -- Erwin Dietrich
>
>
>
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>  
>

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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Riku Voipio]

Michael Wiktowy wrote:


IANAL but it is my understanding that most countries have RFI laws 
that do not allow RF chip manufacturers to allow their users to modify 
their chips to switch to licensed bands or use an amount of power that 
brings it into a licenseable realm. It is not just the case of the law 
saying that a user can't operate in certain realms ... the user can't 
even be allowed to *possibly* operate in certain realms. So if an 
embedded chip is flexible enough, the manufacturers nerf it with a 
binary blob.
If that would be the case, HW vendors should put the transmission power 
restrictions in the hardware. a binary blob doesn't prevent 
modification, it's security via obscurity. And since this blob is often 
just arm instructions, it's not particularly good obfuscation either. 
This is only slightly more effective than actually releasing the C code, 
if the code uses all the HW registers via hex values and other 
undocumented magic numbers, instead of using #define:d values[1] to 
actually describe what the driver does.


More likely manufacturers feel that there is valuable IP in their blobs 
and would prefer not to give it around to everyone for free, especially 
in a highly competitive market like wlan chipsets are.


Riku

[1] It can be argued that such form is actually not the "preferred form 
of modification" required by GPL.

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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Andrew Barr]

On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 15:56 -0400, Michael Wiktowy wrote:

> Unfortunately, I don't think the waters are all that clear in this
> situation.

No, unfortunately they're not.

> IANAL but it is my understanding that most countries have RFI laws
> that do not allow RF chip manufacturers to allow their users to modify
> their chips to switch to licensed bands or use an amount of power that
> brings it into a licenseable realm. It is not just the case of the law
> saying that a user can't operate in certain realms ... the user can't
> even be allowed to *possibly* operate in certain realms. So if an
> embedded chip is flexible enough, the manufacturers nerf it with a
> binary blob. 

The legal reasoning has been debated extensively on LKML and elsewhere
multiple times, but I think it's worth pointing out that not everyone
buys the regulation argument. That the regulations require withholding
source code is, as I understand it, the prevailing interpretation among
corporate attorneys rather than language in any particular regulation.
Do a search at lkml.org for the recent ipw3945 discussions for details.

In all reality the world's communications regulation agencies need to
address the issue of open source code and software radios with updated
regulations, and in the very least WLAN vendors will no longer have an
excuse to hide behind, should that be what they are doing--I suspect at
least some of them are.

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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Michael Wiktowy]

On 8/30/06, Koen Kooi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1Kalle Vahlman schreef:> Hmm, I've always been under the impression that any kind of> combination of binary-only and GPL code would be in violation... IANAL
> of course.Slightly a different issue, but a nice read anyway:http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.html"closed source kernel modules are unethical"
regards,KoenUnfortunately, I don't think the waters are all that clear in this situation.IANAL but it is my understanding that most countries have RFI laws that do not allow RF chip manufacturers to allow their users to modify their chips to switch to licensed bands or use an amount of power that brings it into a licenseable realm. It is not just the case of the law saying that a user can't operate in certain realms ... the user can't even be allowed to *possibly* operate in certain realms. So if an embedded chip is flexible enough, the manufacturers nerf it with a binary blob.
So you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Open up everything to comply with the GPL and violate RF Spectrum laws in some countries. Wrap a binary blob to satisfy RF regulators and you run a fowl of the GPL.
Both these demands are put in place for good reasons. However, they are mutually incompatible. The courts will have to sort out which takes precedence but it would be my guess that the RFI law would as violating it could threaten lives (broadcasting in aircraft radio navigation bands, scrambling police frequencies, etc.) where as violating the GPL would be rarely life-threatening.
The way that some manufacturers get around the problem is to nerf things at the hardware level. If the chip can't do it at that level, no amount of software/firmware hacking will get around that and they are free to open up all the specs to the hardware.
I think where the conflict really occurs is when the manufacturer software-nerfs the chip too much and cuts out some vital access that programmers/users want. Then they refuse to put in the legal/development time and resources to change their firmware to relax things a bit because they would then have to seek approval from the regulatory body yet again.
Nasty vicious circle :[ 
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Koen Kooi]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Kalle Vahlman schreef:

> Hmm, I've always been under the impression that any kind of
> combination of binary-only and GPL code would be in violation... IANAL
> of course.

Slightly a different issue, but a nice read anyway:
http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.html

"closed source kernel modules are unethical"

regards,

Koen

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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Kalle Vahlman]

2006/8/30, Andrew Barr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 19:47 +0300, Kalle Vahlman wrote:
> Forgive me if I'm ignorant, but do you mean this one:
>
>   https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/
>
> "License: GNU General Public License (GPL)" doesn't sound too binary,
> even though GPL tends to be a bit black-and-white in it's license
> compatibility regulation... ;)

AFAICT the license is at least partially incorrect.


And so I am fooled to be ignorant :/


Look in the
Subversion repo and you'll see that it's one of those
source-wrapper-around-a-binary-blob style drivers.


Hmm, I've always been under the impression that any kind of
combination of binary-only and GPL code would be in violation... IANAL
of course.

--
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Andrew Barr]

On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 19:47 +0300, Kalle Vahlman wrote:
> Forgive me if I'm ignorant, but do you mean this one:
> 
>   https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/
> 
> "License: GNU General Public License (GPL)" doesn't sound too binary,
> even though GPL tends to be a bit black-and-white in it's license
> compatibility regulation... ;)

AFAICT the license is at least partially incorrect. Look in the
Subversion repo and you'll see that it's one of those
source-wrapper-around-a-binary-blob style drivers.

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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Paulo Pires]

On 8/30/06, Kalle Vahlman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
2006/8/30, Andrew Barr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:Forgive me if I'm ignorant, but do you mean this one:  
https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/It would be good if that page was really "alive".-Paulo Pires
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Kalle Vahlman]

2006/8/30, Andrew Barr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 11:47 -0400, John B. Holmblad wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> regarding your comment on support for Kimset I would add that with the
> proliferation of so-called Municipal WIFI networks here in the U.S.,
> it behooves Nokia to make the M770 attractive/useful not only to
> software developers (the arguable lack of such "attractiveness" seems
> to be the underlying theme of this thread started with righteous
> indignation by ) but also to end users,

I know this isn't Nokia's fault (blame Conexant for refusing to talk to
the Prism54 people) but if the WLAN driver wasn't binary-only this
wouldn't be an issue. Monitor mode is a standard feature of Linux WLAN
drivers and IMHO it should work properly. Hopefully someday the
islsm/FreeMAC/whatever work will be done and the cx3110x driver can be
banished.


Forgive me if I'm ignorant, but do you mean this one:

 https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/

"License: GNU General Public License (GPL)" doesn't sound too binary,
even though GPL tends to be a bit black-and-white in it's license
compatibility regulation... ;)

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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Andrew Barr]

On Wed, 2006-08-30 at 11:47 -0400, John B. Holmblad wrote:
> Andrew,
> 
> regarding your comment on support for Kimset I would add that with the
> proliferation of so-called Municipal WIFI networks here in the U.S.,
> it behooves Nokia to make the M770 attractive/useful not only to
> software developers (the arguable lack of such "attractiveness" seems
> to be the underlying theme of this thread started with righteous
> indignation by ) but also to end users, 

I know this isn't Nokia's fault (blame Conexant for refusing to talk to
the Prism54 people) but if the WLAN driver wasn't binary-only this
wouldn't be an issue. Monitor mode is a standard feature of Linux WLAN
drivers and IMHO it should work properly. Hopefully someday the
islsm/FreeMAC/whatever work will be done and the cx3110x driver can be
banished.

> in the U.S. at least as, increasingly, our cities, towns, and villages
> are bathed in an Internet connected 802.11 "ether".  Nokia has a great
> opportunity to benefit from this trend, but so far, has done a poor
> job of marketing the N770 in the U.S. for reasons that are not at all
> clear to me. And soon enough there will be competing Internet Tablet
> products based on Windows Mobile 5.0 that will, I believe, be priced
> well below the $US 350.00 price point that Nokia has set for the N770.

I am certainly not a mainstream consumer electronics shopper, but I have
absolutely no interest in any PDA or handheld gadget running Windows
Mobile. I fail to understand why there are so _many_ of them when there
are relatively few actual choices to be made--Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. is
about the only differentiating factor these days.

Yes, the 770 is expensive but well worth it in my opinion, even if it is
just to break out of Windows CE clone-world.

> Related to this question of how to make a product based on the LInux
> operating system successful in the broader consumer market, Eric
> Raymond, at the US Linuxworld conference, warned his audience that
> unless Linux purist/developers are willing to, in effect, get off the
> "dry rock of principle", and allow binary drivers (i.e. closed source)
> as part of the package/distro, then such products will fail in the
> marketplace. Here is the url to an article in the Register that
> summarizes his comments
> 
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/eric_raymond_linux_compromise/
> 
> 
> From what I can tell, it seems that Nokia, with respect to the 770, is
> aligning itself with Eric Raymond's thinking, that is, to allow parts
> of the distro to be "closed source", by withholding parts of the Nokia
> source code for competitive or other reasons. 

Disallowing or not tolerating binary drivers is not a matter of
principle that can simply be dropped. It is a matter of keeping Linux as
the high quality platform it is--i.e. allowing anyone who is capable to
fix bugs in drivers. Relying on vendors to do this, as you have to with
binary-only drivers, is a sure way to get burned--just ask anyone who
has had to deal with BSODs in Windows. Greg Kroah-Hartman is probably
the main kernel hacker who has led the charge against binary drivers and
has a very pragmatic and practical position against them. He wrote, for
example, the StableApiNonsense.txt file that can be found in the kernel
distribution's Documentation/ directory explaining why you (e.g. the
prospective binary-only or out-of-tree driver vendor) want your driver
in the mainline kernel and don't even know it.

> Despite the concerns I mentioned in my earlier post on this thread, I
> am sure Nokia's lawyers have "squared the corners" of their compliance
> with the LInux software licensing regime while keeping parts of the
> software "closed source". In that case Nokia should be doing as much
> as possible (as Microsoft does for example) to make it drop dead
> simple for software developers to add value to the base product by
> having a software development environment that is compelling in terms
> of ease of use. 

In my opinion, many people on this list are frustrated by the very fact
that Nokia is treating them as application developers and by and large
denying people the opportunity to hack on the 770 internals and the
included applications. That is not the expectation that some had when
they purchased their 770 (myself included).

Nokia has to decide if it wants to court "application developers", in
the sense that Microsoft does, or an open-source community that wants
hackability. The Microsoft route does have pitfalls, because making
things too easy, e.g. Visual Basic, just leads to the proliferation of
poorly written commercial software, making your platform look bad in the
process.

> I get the sense that that the lack of this "ease of use for
> developers" is  really the root cause of the anger that is so obvious
> in the tone of Allesandro's original post. In this case, shooting the
> (angry) messenger, as some on this list seem to want to do, will not
> make Nokia's problem go away, and failing to

Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Paulo Pires]

There is http://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/ for this particular case. But, unfortunately, nobody is answering in its forums and not even in this ML.Paulo Pires
On 8/29/06, Jaime Ruiz Frontera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:16:15 -0400"Andrew Barr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:[...]> (Just a personal gripe of mine: Proper monitor mode support in the> WLAN driver so Kismet will run correctly and packet injection support for aireplay ;)
Cheers--Jaime Ruiz Fronterae-mail: jaime AT cauterized.netjabber: jaime AT zgzjabber.ath.cxsip   : jaime AT 
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Jaime Ruiz Frontera]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:16:15 -0400
"Andrew Barr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[...]

> (Just a personal gripe of mine: Proper monitor mode support in the
> WLAN driver so Kismet will run correctly. 

... and packet injection support for aireplay ;)

Cheers

-- 
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Andrew Barr]

On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Now what we are concentrating on, beside improving the above is to
enable participation and contribution in stages to different parts of
maemo, starting with HAF/Sardine which I hope would extend. The starting
up and adoption barrier for sardine are being recognized, and we are now
trying to make it easy to adopt and use sardine, without sacrificing the
genral device usability. This would enable the patches or feature
implementations by community to be made and tested on the latest svn
codebase, so the component owners can integrate/accept/reject them.
There has been excellent work done for enabling dual boot by Frantisek Dufka
http://maemo.org/maemowiki/BootMenu


Sardine certainly looks like a step in the right direction in terms of
integrating the community into the development process, kind of like
Red Hat does with its Fedora Project. Nokia, like Red Hat, has a
shipping product that it needs some degree of control over, but also
an active community that has its own ideas and wishes. Hopefully
Sardine will help make the Maemo project better and keep both Nokia
and the Maemo community happy. Ideally, in the future there could be
complete, unofficial "product images" (as Nokia calls them) that are
created by the community, for example maybe one that incorporates only
free software (in the GNU or OSI sense). Maybe something similar to
Red Hat's derivative policy towards Fedora. That would be a
particularly popular one among some, I would venture. Similar to
OpenZaurus for the Sharp PDAs, but within the auspices of the Maemo
community.

Unaddressed so far, however, is the Bluetooth headset issue--more
generally, hardware details that are necessary to create such a
distribution. Headset support would be an extremely useful feature,
one that I would like myself, but unfortunately no one outside Nokia
(or TI or whoever made the Bluetooth chip) has the necessary details.
This is an area where the current top-down structure of the Maemo
project fails. You (the Nokia engineers) seem genuinely interested in
listening to the community, I would be willing to bet that either
adding the necessary support to the the Maemo kernel or providing
documentation to interested parties would silence a longstanding gripe
of some of us.

(Just a personal gripe of mine: Proper monitor mode support in the
WLAN driver so Kismet will run correctly. The Nokia 770 is by far the
most perfect device to run Kismet on that I have ever seen--it's a
shame it doesn't work right. :) )
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Marius Gedminas]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 04:50:47PM +0100, Hugh Warrington wrote:
> Andrew Flegg wrote:
> >On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>ext Christian Pernegger wrote:
> >>>- setting up the developent environment was a bitch
> >>
> >>Could you please send me why ?
> >>- Setting up ScratchBox ???
> >>- Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ?
> >>- Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr?
> >>- Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ???
> >>
> >>I am asking you, so we improve it.
> >
> >It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script made
> >it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why this
> >isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of
> >installing?
> 
> I didn't find copy-pasting ten or twenty lines of clear instructions 
> into a terminal window very taxing. In fact, as cross-compilation goes, 
> setting up and working within the recommended maemo environment is a breeze.

People have different expectations.  I have come to expect one line of
instructions: apt-get install package-name, and that's it.

I do not like to run shell script that install software.  Package
management systems are there for a reason.

It is good that I can apt-get install scratchbox into my Ubuntu laptop.
Figuring out *which* packages to install was a bit trickier
(scratchbox-core scratchbox-devkit-debian scratchbox-libs
scratchbox-toolchain-cs2005q3.2-glibc-i386
scratchbox-toolchain-cs2005q3.2-glibc-arm).

Would it be possible to prepare a Debian package that

  * depends on all the necessary scratchbox packages
  * asks via debconf for a list of users that you want to add to the
sbox group and create scratchbox user accounts
  * automates the scratchbox target creation and configuration
(rootstrap, .bash_profile, etc.), maybe from the same postinst
script, maybe from a separate shell script.
  * includes the start-maemo-xephyr shell script.
  * ships with a shell script that sets up scratchbox when you run it
for the first time (adduser $USERNAME sbox

?  The main question seems to be: can I tell /scratchbox/login to run
some command (say, a shell script that calls the necessary sequence of
sbox-config commands)?

I think the best user experience is

  one command for installation (apt-get install maemo-scratchbox)
  one command to start Xnest (maemo-xephyr?)
  one command to start an i386 shell (maemo-386-shell)
  one command to start an armel shell (maemo-armel-shell)

No extra configuration required.

Hm... looks like a worthy project for a weekend.

A VMWare virtual appliance with scratchbox preconfigured would also be
nice, I suppose, although personally I'm not interested in it.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
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-- Erwin Dietrich


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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Andrew Flegg]

On 8/29/06, Hugh Warrington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Andrew Flegg wrote:


[Getting scratchbox running]


> It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script
> made it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why
> this isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of
> installing?

I didn't find copy-pasting ten or twenty lines of clear instructions
into a terminal window very taxing. In fact, as cross-compilation goes,
setting up and working within the recommended maemo environment is a
breeze.


I didn't say it was hard, just not simple. Why should I need to spend
time downloading this, installing that, copying this rootstrap etc?

Surely you can't be arguing that despite the installer script
existing, users should be confronted with a twenty step process to get
the SDK up and running, when it could be just one?

Cheers,

Andrew

--
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Christian Pernegger]

Why was [setting up the developent environment difficult]?


scratchbox is not an official Debian package, and as far as the rather
intrusive directory structure goes, I can see why it isn't. It also
needs i386 when my "do your worst" boxes are both amd64. All in all it
was just long and error-prone.


- Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr?


Xephyr segfaulted left, right and center when I last tried it, but
only after the first few events. Xnest worked.

The chroot + rootstrap approch itself would be nice enough if the
environment were exactly the same as a 770, that is including
applications. At first I thought something was broken because it
wasn't really possible to _do_ anything in the chrooted environent. So
obviously we aren't supposed to enhance the provided apps ... hmm.

The scratchbox environment has no audio output, no battery indicator,
no "simulated" connectivity, ... it isn't much better than saying
"compile using these header files and cross-compile by changing your
makefile in this way".

I'll admit the last time I played with handheld development was on a
Palm emulator, which felt much more complete - maemo is like flying
blind.


I think the accepted fact is that development for different processor
non-PC devices is different.


Yes, traditionally it is. But a RAD approach would get you more
developers from the "hobby" end of the spectrum, while you'd have to
completely open up the software (including applications, bootloader,
etc ...) for professionals to donate their spare time.

maemo just isn't fun to work with yet, but I'm sure you'll get there :)

C.
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Hugh Warrington]

Andrew Flegg wrote:

On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

ext Christian Pernegger wrote:

- setting up the developent environment was a bitch

>>

Could you please send me why ?
- Setting up ScratchBox ???
- Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ?
- Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr?
- Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ???

I am asking you, so we improve it.


It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script made
it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why this
isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of
installing?

HTH,

Andrew


I didn't find copy-pasting ten or twenty lines of clear instructions 
into a terminal window very taxing. In fact, as cross-compilation goes, 
setting up and working within the recommended maemo environment is a breeze.


Hugh
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Acadia Secure Networks]

Title: Best Regards,




Devesh,

the following commentary from Andrew is somewhat disconcerting since it
suggests that Nokia is somehow holding back on openness:



  "I have to say
> Maemo and the Nokia 770 have been disappointing in terms of openness"
  

Assuming that his disappointment is warranted, what has held Nokia back
in terms of "complete openness" in the context suggested by the above
comment? Is there some commercial concern that, by being more "open",
that Nokia will be somehow more vulnerable to competitors developing
similar hardware that runs the same software platform as the N770? It
is not even clear to me that it is legally possible under the terms of
licensing for Linux based software to take the parts of Linux that one
likes but to hold other parts back in order to retain a competitive
advantage in the marketplace.














Best
Regards,
 
John
Holmblad
 
Acadia
Secure Networks
GSEC Gold,
GCWN Gold, GGSC-0100,
NSA-IAM, NSA-IEM
 
(H)
703
620 0672
(M)
703
407 2278
(F)  703
620 5388
(O)
410
849 2376
(has voicemail to email)
 
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address:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
backup email
address:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
www
page for texting:  
www.vtext.com/users/jholmblad
text email
address:   
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  ext Andrew Barr wrote:

  
  
On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 18:47 -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:


  ...
  

While I certainly don't agree with the angry tone used, I have to say
Maemo and the Nokia 770 have been disappointing in terms of openness. It
seems to me that Nokia has opened just enough to get apps ported and/or
written for the device, which in turn sells more devices, or at least
that appears to be the plan. Nothing has come of recurring requests for
information about the Bluetooth hardware (e.g. for headset support), Ogg
Vorbis support, or Gstreamer/DSP multimedia internals in general. Some
things that are missing from the Subversion repo don't even make sense,
e.g. there is no hardware secrets or patents associated with them (at
least as far as I know) The media player apps come to mind here.


  
  What I agree is that we need to strengthen the architecture documents
BTW getting strarted with multimedia development doc was updated
http://maemo.org/platform/docs/multimedia/getting_started.html
(section Plugin development) which describes how to enable  ogg-vorbis
 

  
  
Maemo really isn't open in the sense that we're used to: like a
traditional Linux distribution. It seems to be more of an SDK plus
things that were required to be open, e.g. due to licensing terms.


  
  I think one of the reason for that could also be attributed that most
general linux distributions are targetted to PC/laptop which have
relatively well defines standardized hardware architecture. What we have
tried to do with maemo is
- provide a common development environment and tools for Nokia 770 and
future devices (SB, rootstraps etc)
- provide (as a priority) to enable application development
- enable experimentation like ability to compile your own kernel, create
your own rootfs and all the benifits that could be leveraged from a
debian based component package management system

Now what we are concentrating on, beside improving the above is to
enable participation and contribution in stages to different parts of
maemo, starting with HAF/Sardine which I hope would extend. The starting
up and adoption barrier for sardine are being recognized, and we are now
trying to make it easy to adopt and use sardine, without sacrificing the
genral device usability. This would enable the patches or feature
implementations by community to be made and tested on the latest svn
codebase, so the component owners can integrate/accept/reject them.
There has been excellent work done for enabling dual boot by Frantisek Dufka
http://maemo.org/maemowiki/BootMenu

which I hope would enable the experimentation atleast in the large area
of HAF/sardine (comprising the majority of the middleware stack like
gtk+, theming, desktop, tasknavigator, control panel, application
installer etc) to happen on MMC based sardine rootfs

Devesh


  
  
This is unfortunate, because it creates a burden on the Nokia employees
working on this project. They are the only ones who can add many
requested features or fix bugs, so in many cases people complain to the
mail list because they cannot take care of things themselves. You don't
see patch mails on the maemo-* lists. That's to say nothing of ideas
people have had but been unable to implement--trivial stuff that would
improve the Maemo environment but may not have been discussed on the ML.

To me, the open-source economy (or whatever) that makes some projects so
great doesn't work here because the "community" is relegated in large
part to the role of application developer. The best you can do to
improve some parts of Maemo is suggest it and hope someone at Nokia
takes it up.

These are just my impressions from informal

Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Devesh Kothari]

ext Andrew Barr wrote:

> On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 18:47 -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:
> > ...
>
> While I certainly don't agree with the angry tone used, I have to say
> Maemo and the Nokia 770 have been disappointing in terms of openness. It
> seems to me that Nokia has opened just enough to get apps ported and/or
> written for the device, which in turn sells more devices, or at least
> that appears to be the plan. Nothing has come of recurring requests for
> information about the Bluetooth hardware (e.g. for headset support), Ogg
> Vorbis support, or Gstreamer/DSP multimedia internals in general. Some
> things that are missing from the Subversion repo don't even make sense,
> e.g. there is no hardware secrets or patents associated with them (at
> least as far as I know) The media player apps come to mind here.
>
What I agree is that we need to strengthen the architecture documents
BTW getting strarted with multimedia development doc was updated
http://maemo.org/platform/docs/multimedia/getting_started.html
(section Plugin development) which describes how to enable  ogg-vorbis
 

> Maemo really isn't open in the sense that we're used to: like a
> traditional Linux distribution. It seems to be more of an SDK plus
> things that were required to be open, e.g. due to licensing terms.
>
I think one of the reason for that could also be attributed that most
general linux distributions are targetted to PC/laptop which have
relatively well defines standardized hardware architecture. What we have
tried to do with maemo is
- provide a common development environment and tools for Nokia 770 and
future devices (SB, rootstraps etc)
- provide (as a priority) to enable application development
- enable experimentation like ability to compile your own kernel, create
your own rootfs and all the benifits that could be leveraged from a
debian based component package management system

Now what we are concentrating on, beside improving the above is to
enable participation and contribution in stages to different parts of
maemo, starting with HAF/Sardine which I hope would extend. The starting
up and adoption barrier for sardine are being recognized, and we are now
trying to make it easy to adopt and use sardine, without sacrificing the
genral device usability. This would enable the patches or feature
implementations by community to be made and tested on the latest svn
codebase, so the component owners can integrate/accept/reject them.
There has been excellent work done for enabling dual boot by Frantisek Dufka
http://maemo.org/maemowiki/BootMenu

which I hope would enable the experimentation atleast in the large area
of HAF/sardine (comprising the majority of the middleware stack like
gtk+, theming, desktop, tasknavigator, control panel, application
installer etc) to happen on MMC based sardine rootfs

Devesh


> This is unfortunate, because it creates a burden on the Nokia employees
> working on this project. They are the only ones who can add many
> requested features or fix bugs, so in many cases people complain to the
> mail list because they cannot take care of things themselves. You don't
> see patch mails on the maemo-* lists. That's to say nothing of ideas
> people have had but been unable to implement--trivial stuff that would
> improve the Maemo environment but may not have been discussed on the ML.
>
> To me, the open-source economy (or whatever) that makes some projects so
> great doesn't work here because the "community" is relegated in large
> part to the role of application developer. The best you can do to
> improve some parts of Maemo is suggest it and hope someone at Nokia
> takes it up.
>
> These are just my impressions from informal observation and occasional
> participation in this endeavor. If you think I'm way off base or crazy
> or something, please feel free to tell me or ignore me.
> --
> Andrew Barr | http://www.oakcourt.dyndns.org/~andrew/
> 
>
> "Buzzword detected (core dumped)"
>   -- seen on linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
> ___
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Andrew Flegg]

On 8/29/06, Devesh Kothari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

ext Christian Pernegger wrote:

> > I am just telling some truths that others should know.
>
> I'm with you insofar as
> - setting up the developent environment was a bitch
>
Could you please send me why ?
- Setting up ScratchBox ???
- Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ?
- Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr?
- Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ???

I am asking you, so we improve it.


It was just a long and labourious process. The `installer' script made
it trivial the second time I did it, so much so I wonder why this
isn't advertised more as a recommended and supported way of
installing?

HTH,

Andrew

--
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Devesh Kothari]

ext Christian Pernegger wrote:

> > I am just telling some truths that others should know.
>
> I'm with you insofar as
> - setting up the developent environment was a bitch
>
Could you please send me why ?
- Setting up ScratchBox ???
- Downloading, extracting maemo x.x rootstrap ?
- Setting up UI environment like Xnest/Xephyr?
- Setting up CPU_Transparency stuff ??? (need for advanced stuff) ???

I am asking you, so we improve it.

> - it still doesn't give you the same environment as a real 770 apparently
>
In general scratchbox as already pointed out provides a chrooted
environment, which is not the same as in device development. The armel
rootstrap in SB should atleast provide the same compiled binaries etc as
that on the device, so as to provide properly cross compiled binaries
for the device.

> - C++ plus custom framework doesn't exactly lend itself to RAD, maybe
> a scripting language (python, ruby, whatever) or even Java would have
> been a better choice. A lot of people, me included, don't have a clue
> about cross-compiling or embedded development.
>
I think the accepted fact is that development for different processor
non-PC devices is different.
Devesh

> C.
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Henri Sivonen]

On Aug 29, 2006, at 12:22, Kuosmanen Tuomas (Nokia-M/Helsinki) wrote:


The fact that the
environment uses its own gtk (while a lot of stuff is being pushed
upstream) - this forces you to use a chroot environment. While
scratchbox does a lot of things for you to make things less nasty,  
it's
a whole new thing to learn for the most of us. And it's far from  
trivial

anyway.


Is GTK from Maemo expected to compile (for the host itself) on  
desktop Linux or Mac OS X? What about Hildon?


How much work would be required for making Python development  
possible on any *nix style platform with an X server by compiling GTK  
and Hildon and their Python wrappers for the hosting architecture and  
installing them in a non-conventional directory prefix to prevent  
conflicts with the usual GTK installation?


(BTW, it would be nice if the source download page documented the  
right svn incantations for pulling the source corresponding to the  
OS2006 release.)


--
Henri Sivonen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/


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RE: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Kuosmanen Tuomas (Nokia-M/Helsinki)]

On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 01:00 +0200, ext Hartmut Henkel wrote:
> Just to add here: i have one of these Nokias with the broken LCD
> (vertical stripes). Actually i don't even believe that the LCD is
> broken, it looks like a wrong setting of the LCD (with the old HP pocket
> calculators you could tweak the contrast by pressing ON and +/-).

I have replaced the screen component of one such striped one and it
worked with the new screen, no software changes. That sounds to me like
broken hardware rather than a software bug.

//T

-- 
A: No
Q: Should i quote this on the top?
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Kuosmanen Tuomas (Nokia-M/Helsinki)]

On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 22:56 +0200, ext Christian Pernegger wrote:
> > I am just telling some truths that others should know.
> 
> I'm with you insofar as
> - setting up the developent environment was a bitch
[zap]
>  A lot of people, me included, don't have a clue
> about cross-compiling or embedded development.

Yes, I think this is one of the reasons why. The fact that the
environment uses its own gtk (while a lot of stuff is being pushed
upstream) - this forces you to use a chroot environment. While
scratchbox does a lot of things for you to make things less nasty, it's
a whole new thing to learn for the most of us. And it's far from trivial
anyway.

But please, while you criticize "nokia" remember a lot of us are just as
much a part of the community as you are. It's been said earlier too -
look at Sardine, and see how things are being worked on. Perhaps slower
than you wish, but I also wish it happened faster. There's just a LOT of
stuff that has dependencies on how the daily progress happens, and stuff
does not change overnight for that reason. :-(

//Tuomas

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RE: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Hartmut Henkel]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Andrew Barr wrote:

> This is unfortunate, because it creates a burden on the Nokia
> employees working on this project. They are the only ones who can add
> many requested features or fix bugs, so in many cases people complain
> to the mail list because they cannot take care of things themselves.

Just to add here: i have one of these Nokias with the broken LCD
(vertical stripes). Actually i don't even believe that the LCD is
broken, it looks like a wrong setting of the LCD (with the old HP pocket
calculators you could tweak the contrast by pressing ON and +/-). But
for the Nokia there is no LCD hardware info available, no data sheet,
and so the recommended solution is to send the many "broken LCD" gadgets
in for repair. Costs lots of money. And maybe they are all broken
indeed. But i would really be glad if it would be possible to understand
the hardware and to tweak control registers of the LCD. All this stuff
is closed-source, and i can't see a benefit for the Nokia engineers by
this policy.

Regards, Hartmut (electronics engineer)
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RE: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[George Farris]

On Mon, 2006-28-08 at 18:40 -0400, Andrew Barr wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 18:47 -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:
> > ...
> 
> While I certainly don't agree with the angry tone used, I have to say
> Maemo and the Nokia 770 have been disappointing in terms of openness. It
> seems to me that Nokia has opened just enough to get apps ported and/or
> written for the device, which in turn sells more devices, or at least
> that appears to be the plan. Nothing has come of recurring requests for
> information about the Bluetooth hardware (e.g. for headset support), Ogg
> Vorbis support, or Gstreamer/DSP multimedia internals in general. Some
> things that are missing from the Subversion repo don't even make sense,
> e.g. there is no hardware secrets or patents associated with them (at
> least as far as I know) The media player apps come to mind here.

I'm afraid I have to echo this.  There has been nothing after repeated
requests about Bluetooth headset support, Ogg Vorbis support etc.  This
is after all an "Internet" tablet.

I believe Nokia could be a little more forthcoming with information that
could do nothing but help them sell more product.

It's a bit frustrating at best.


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RE: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Andrew Barr]

On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 18:47 -0300, Alessandro Ikeuchi wrote:
> ...

While I certainly don't agree with the angry tone used, I have to say
Maemo and the Nokia 770 have been disappointing in terms of openness. It
seems to me that Nokia has opened just enough to get apps ported and/or
written for the device, which in turn sells more devices, or at least
that appears to be the plan. Nothing has come of recurring requests for
information about the Bluetooth hardware (e.g. for headset support), Ogg
Vorbis support, or Gstreamer/DSP multimedia internals in general. Some
things that are missing from the Subversion repo don't even make sense,
e.g. there is no hardware secrets or patents associated with them (at
least as far as I know) The media player apps come to mind here.

Maemo really isn't open in the sense that we're used to: like a
traditional Linux distribution. It seems to be more of an SDK plus
things that were required to be open, e.g. due to licensing terms. 

This is unfortunate, because it creates a burden on the Nokia employees
working on this project. They are the only ones who can add many
requested features or fix bugs, so in many cases people complain to the
mail list because they cannot take care of things themselves. You don't
see patch mails on the maemo-* lists. That's to say nothing of ideas
people have had but been unable to implement--trivial stuff that would
improve the Maemo environment but may not have been discussed on the ML.

To me, the open-source economy (or whatever) that makes some projects so
great doesn't work here because the "community" is relegated in large
part to the role of application developer. The best you can do to
improve some parts of Maemo is suggest it and hope someone at Nokia
takes it up.

These are just my impressions from informal observation and occasional
participation in this endeavor. If you think I'm way off base or crazy
or something, please feel free to tell me or ignore me.
-- 
Andrew Barr | http://www.oakcourt.dyndns.org/~andrew/

"Buzzword detected (core dumped)"
  -- seen on linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
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RE: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Alessandro Ikeuchi]

Ok, lets kick the dog:
- try to compile with SDK_PC, then with SDK_ARMEL, well, you'll never compile 
again in SDK_PC...
- RAD?? Are you crazy??? Even the basic C API doesn't work at all... Unicode is 
a mistery for me after dozens of days searching...
- the best feature of my Nokia is the console xTerminal...
- Maemo docs are band-aid over a femural bleeding
- the best apps ported to Nokia are console based or X based... Hildon based 
are tragic accidents.
- Java doesn´t even fit in tiny 128mb... We should mount and use as root our 
1gb sd cards and liberate the rest of the memory for RAM. When "Linux from 
scratch" fits for Nokia, bye bye OS2006...
- Even for a normal user the basic programs that are blunded with OS2006 are 
too much buggy, the community ones are truly russian roulettes.
- From 5 questions the developers list evolves more 6, all without answers 
(where I apply to be nokia employee? I just wanna a fast look in the sources to 
solve my dead keys problems, after that I quit)

- I AM REALLY TIRED FROM PEOPLE SAYING ABOUT "THE NEXT FEATURES" WHEN EVEN THE 
NOWADAYS FEATURES DOESN'T WORK, C'MON PEOPLE, GET REAL, HELP US TO PRESSURE 
MAEMO TO REALLY AID PROGRAMMERS, BECAUSE PORT APPS TODAY IS A NIGHTMARE AND 
FRUSTRATING TASK.

- DID YOU EVER SAW A LINUX DISTRIBUTION ASKS FOR SOME KIND OF SERIAL TO 
AUTHORIZE THE DOWNLOAD? I NEVER... BUY A WINDOWS XP MACHINE INSTEAD, IT LACKS 
FREEDOM AS MUCH AS OS2006, AND YOU WON'T WASTE YOUR TIME WITH SCRATCHBOX (very 
good name, I scratched a lot...) AND ROOTSTRAPS.

-MAEMO WON'T DESERVE TIME OR ANY KIND OF EFFORTS FROM OPEN SOURCE COMMUNITY 
BECAUSE IT'S NOT OPEN, HARDLY A GOOD DEVELOPER COMMUNITY WILL EVOLVE AROUND IT. 
REMEMBER THAT WHEN BUYING NOKIA 770, THIS MEANS (much) LESS APPS PORTS.

Alessandro - Frustrated owner of a Nokia 770 since june/06, retired Maemo 
amateur developer (two weeks trying to understand where hildon and GTK works), 
and unsuccessful user that only wanted dead keys for bluetooth keyboard (ah, 
the stowaway bluetooth keyboard is just great, pays for each cent)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian 
Pernegger
Sent: segunda-feira, 28 de agosto de 2006 17:56
To: maemo-developers@maemo.org
Cc: Shae Matijs Erisson
Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...


> I am just telling some truths that others should know.

I'm with you insofar as
- setting up the developent environment was a bitch
- it still doesn't give you the same environment as a real 770 apparently
- C++ plus custom framework doesn't exactly lend itself to RAD, maybe a 
scripting language (python, ruby, whatever) or even Java would have been a 
better choice. A lot of people, me included, don't have a clue about 
cross-compiling or embedded development.

C.
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Re: [maemo-developers] RE: Nokia 770 sources...

[Christian Pernegger]

I am just telling some truths that others should know.


I'm with you insofar as
- setting up the developent environment was a bitch
- it still doesn't give you the same environment as a real 770 apparently
- C++ plus custom framework doesn't exactly lend itself to RAD, maybe
a scripting language (python, ruby, whatever) or even Java would have
been a better choice. A lot of people, me included, don't have a clue
about cross-compiling or embedded development.

C.
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