Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Gary, you're so right:"The Greens were faced with an open goal after the budget, and they should have called the Labor Party's bluff, and forced them to be the only ones to pass the supply bills." If the Greens had done that -- and identified so strongly with the rest of us -- they would have been made electorally and their '3rd Party' fortunes would have been guaranteed. So I reckon we just had a 'moment' in Australian politics that will still be played out over the next few years. IF the Greens had rejected the budget in toto there would have been a major shift in the groundswell but instead they sided with the bosses. As the front office spin goes:"The Greens are the only party to be powered from the bottom-up, engaging members and supporters every step of the way. We have the courage to stand with you to create a more caring society..." It looks a tad hallow at the moment, even hypocritical. The other element in the mix is a discernable shift within some trade unions. It isn't huge -- not yet anyway -- but its' clear that the ranks are a bit cheesed off that many of their officials have been mum over the budget and have merely channeled Bill Shorten's platitudes.At last weekends rally here in Brisbane there was a flagged trade union presence -- esp ETU, MUA, CPSU and NTEU. And what was really interesting was that this recent platform was way to the left of the one last time and the attendees' responses were absolutely in sync with it. Talk about hanging on every word! There was no organised Greens presence either -- unlike last time. The anger is very tangible...and my reading is that folk are in a sort of campaign mode as they realize that one-off rallies are insufficient to the task before us. Maybe we had advantages here in Brisbane in terms of the coalition that's leading this, but we know that the 2003 Iraq protest syndrome haunts the movements -- the one-off thing followed by abatement. The complication this time around is that we aren't confronted with an offshore issue -- but a massive change to our collective every day lives and the future both of ourselves and of our children. Its' even a bit more than a 'hip pocket' response as the budget brutality seeds so much of our existence. And having just recently ridded the chambers in most states of the ALP calling those dogs back isn't really cause for excitement --neither nationally nor in any state like Queensland. So folk are facing a conundrum...at the same time as the chronic cynicism and anti-politics attitudes pervades the population, the community has to deal with the complication of 'what is to be done?' if we can't rely to the pollies to do itYes: not even the Greens! Of course in the sweep of things -- the neoliberal arc stretching back to Hawke and Keating,back 30 years, herein we have a bit of a fight back mood that not only threatens the Laborist consensus but maybe the Greens carte blanche. How that plays out is sure to be interesting. What potential is there for industrial action? What campaign forms will be engineered? What sectors will sign up to activity? How much leeway has Labor (or the Greens for that matter) got to sabotage a more radical edge to this and an extra- parliamentary dynamic? Of course, any motion around this undermines the racism embedding in the refugee push...which is a kingpin of the federal government ideological credibility.The racism Labor and LNP helped create may not be sufficient to prop them up among what should have been loyal sectors of the population. But I expect we'll get a lot more of the asylum boat shebang in Howard style mode. dave riley Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Well Dave as you know *I was *in the business of denigrating the Queensland Greens when under Drew Hutton's leadership they helped to bring down a Labor government. I cannot fault your analysis. The Greens were faced with an open goal after the budget, and they should have called the Labor Party's bluff, and forced them to be the only ones to pass the supply bills. The legacy of former Greens leader, Dr Bob Brown, who was adept at picking the issues to appear Left wing, while never really threatening the status quo, is still with us. Milne is much less skillful. Still all things considered it is electoral death to vote for the petrol rise and the co-payment for visiting a doctor. That attacks on pensioners and students can be added to that mix. Even someone, as stupid as Milne is, will have this pointed out to her. The ALP will also be forced to block some of the budget measures. All that means the battle around the cuts is far from lost. Opposition outside parliament will demand opposition inside parliament and in turn that will spur on opposition outside. That is the dialectic as I see it in this conjuncture. Shorten, the Labor leader, has clearly signaled to the ruling class that he wants to be "responsible" and not oppositional. Yet if he messes up his timing here, tensions will arise even inside the ALP. Also, we should bear in mind there will be three state elections and a territory election within the next 12 months. Overall the political climate is heating up. precisely because the government has failed to secure hegemony around their austerity project. comradely Gary On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 8:30 PM, Ratbag Media via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > I'm not in the business of denigrating the Greens. I think Gary is right > that our Greens are not a neo-liberal project in the sense that the LNP > and the ALP definitely are. > > But that said, what's the likely strength of this "left around Greenland > and Bandt" ? Esp given that on the major disputes it has rolled over for > the sake of consensus...and chooses to ignore spectral pragmatism of the > Tasmanian option. > > The recent NSW members meeting organised to discuss the Milne refusal to > block the Abbott budget > > http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/nsw-greens-branded-awesomely-stupid-over-moves-to-block-supply-20140606-39ojp.html > suggests that the momentum is not strong given that the core budget issue > was a biggy when this fuel tax debate is really just fallout > > http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/greens-in-turmoil-as-grassroots-members-push-for-new-fuel-tax-backflip-20140702-3b8tn.html > > But the consequence is that the Greens have lost traction on the left > because -- as Andrew Wilkie has bluntly said, ""Labor and the Greens have > been huffing and puffing against the budget but when it came to the crunch > and an opportunity to put words into actions, they sided with the > government." > https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/56744 > > That's absolutely true. -- and people KNOW it. Even Greens members. > > This isn't a " longed for opening to the Left '..not yet, anyway.But it > does suggest that there is motion to the left of the Greens that is > unwilling to be drawn into their electoralist framework...and , in a sense, > they've lost their carte blanche. Indeed if it wasn't for their steady > state hold on the refugee issue their credibility would be much less at the > moment. > > But with over 10,000 members the 'Greens' aren't something to ignore or > dismiss: > "Membership figures for the Greens, seen by *The Age*, show that the party > grew from 1538 members in 1998-99 to 10,429 in 2009-10. The party's > membership is dwarfed by Labor, which says it had 37,500 members in > 2009-10, but the ALP's membership is in decline, especially since its most > recent peak, around the time of Kevin Rudd's election, when there were just > under 50,000 members." > > http://www.theage.com.au/national/greens-membership-tops-1-as-labor-feels-the-heat-20110221-1b2i3.html#ixzz36s17T794 > > ..and many people turn to the Greens as > their initial political engagement beyond the main parties. And as Rudolf > Bahro said, 'The Greens are the last hesitation to socialism." --and even > with all this neo-liberal pressure I think thats;' still absolutely true. > > Ultimately, the Greens' core conundrum is strategic. How do they > move forward and impact on Australian politics? While we may know the > answer to that , the tactical reality hasn't registered more generally. >
Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I'm not in the business of denigrating the Greens. I think Gary is right that our Greens are not a neo-liberal project in the sense that the LNP and the ALP definitely are. But that said, what's the likely strength of this "left around Greenland and Bandt" ? Esp given that on the major disputes it has rolled over for the sake of consensus...and chooses to ignore spectral pragmatism of the Tasmanian option. The recent NSW members meeting organised to discuss the Milne refusal to block the Abbott budget http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/nsw-greens-branded-awesomely-stupid-over-moves-to-block-supply-20140606-39ojp.html suggests that the momentum is not strong given that the core budget issue was a biggy when this fuel tax debate is really just fallout http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/greens-in-turmoil-as-grassroots-members-push-for-new-fuel-tax-backflip-20140702-3b8tn.html But the consequence is that the Greens have lost traction on the left because -- as Andrew Wilkie has bluntly said, ""Labor and the Greens have been huffing and puffing against the budget but when it came to the crunch and an opportunity to put words into actions, they sided with the government." https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/56744 That's absolutely true. -- and people KNOW it. Even Greens members. This isn't a " longed for opening to the Left '..not yet, anyway.But it does suggest that there is motion to the left of the Greens that is unwilling to be drawn into their electoralist framework...and , in a sense, they've lost their carte blanche. Indeed if it wasn't for their steady state hold on the refugee issue their credibility would be much less at the moment. But with over 10,000 members the 'Greens' aren't something to ignore or dismiss: "Membership figures for the Greens, seen by *The Age*, show that the party grew from 1538 members in 1998-99 to 10,429 in 2009-10. The party's membership is dwarfed by Labor, which says it had 37,500 members in 2009-10, but the ALP's membership is in decline, especially since its most recent peak, around the time of Kevin Rudd's election, when there were just under 50,000 members." http://www.theage.com.au/national/greens-membership-tops-1-as-labor-feels-the-heat-20110221-1b2i3.html#ixzz36s17T794 ..and many people turn to the Greens as their initial political engagement beyond the main parties. And as Rudolf Bahro said, 'The Greens are the last hesitation to socialism." --and even with all this neo-liberal pressure I think thats;' still absolutely true. Ultimately, the Greens' core conundrum is strategic. How do they move forward and impact on Australian politics? While we may know the answer to that , the tactical reality hasn't registered more generally. The Greens have chosen to align themselves with either of the main parties rather than turn to and consistently rely on the streets and the mobilisations...and that's been the steady trajectory played out variously in different states. The tragedy is that in my experience I can cite past ALP MPs and senators who were day to day very much more supportive of the mass movements, of protest actions outside parliament, of campaign committees and organisations, of trade unions, than the Greens gang are today. So I think we need to consider the Greens in a broader historical threshold of radicalism as 'NOT being Liberal or ALP' or NOT neo-liberal isn't really the criteria we should be held hostage to... As a left alternative to Laborism they are a failed project...already. dave riley Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == All three of use are in very broad agreement here, with a fractional difference of emphasis. Nothing that I would fight to hold on to, or split over (:]. I would say that there is a central contradiction in the green Project, and it is that in essence green politics are or should be anti-neo-liberal. So I would not say that the Greens are a neo-liberal project. Though as we all acknowledge, when push comes to a very little shove they will run up the neo-liberal flag. They can only cover over the contradictions in their political project by disembedding the economy from the environment. But that weakens them intellectually and politically and pushes them in the direction of the Australian Democrats and we know where they ended up - in the dust bin of history. Still Milne was rolled in caucus. There is a left around Greenland and Bandt, but everything Dave says about them is spot on. Nevertheless, as the hammer blows of austerity rain down upon the working class and the middle class layers above them, then political tension will rise. The longed for opening to the Left might come. If it does, it will take in sections of the greens and even a sliver from the ALP. comradely regards Gary On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 5:33 PM, Ratbag Media via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > John Passant wrote: > > "It is true my formulation of the Greens as neoliberal is one-sided and > doesn't reflect the very real battles going on in within the organisation > over policies, for example whether to support the fuel tax increases. It is > good they eventually opposed that measure on the grounds it would hit the > poor and low paid workers, and all to fund more roads. > My description had in mind the Greens' support for a neoliberal carbon tax > and neoliberal Emissions Trading Scheme. It was also meant not to label all > greens as neoliberal but to point out to some of them the direction the > organisation is going and the need to link up with others fighting back on > the streets and in their workplaces against the Budget. " > > I think I'm on John's side. The Greens ARE a neoliberal project -- albeit a > left liberal one. > > The European epithet -- 'Neo-liberals on bicycles' to describe green > parties -- is registering in Australia. > > But that doesn't mean that the whole shebang is signed up to the Milne > agenda. It's like the erstwhile Labor Party 'socialist' left -- there was a > transition played out over time.Indeed the Greens function as an ALP left > in a way that the the ALP 'left' does not. > > What's disappointing is that the Greens' almost craven pragmatism wasn't > necessary. There was much more left space than they could have claimed. But > the Greens left has been so desultory. So while there are tensions (as Gary > points out) their significance isn't registering. > > Even on the question of 'blocking the federal budget' there has been a > return to consensus, despite obvious member angst. > > Indeed, the Greens have payed a huge price with their budget shenanigans > and have been passed on the left by a billionaire coal miner and a > Tasmanian independent. > > Who woulda thought? > > Talk about dropping the ball! > > The Greens have lost much of the credibility momentum they have claimed, > esp since the 2003 Iraq invasion. I think the fuel tax debate is a > distraction from their overriding failure to respond to the here-and-now of > Australian politics. > > Instead there's a left 'opening' in Australian politics broader than it's > been for donkey's years. How this context plays out is very relevant to the > Marxist left. > > What DIY is involved isn't at all clear. > > But it's clear that unless the Greens left register gains, the party is > sure to become more of a problem and much less of a 'solution'. I'm assume, > indeed I know, that member loyalty is being tested. > > dave riley > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary.maclennan1%40gmail.com > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == John Passant wrote: "It is true my formulation of the Greens as neoliberal is one-sided and doesn't reflect the very real battles going on in within the organisation over policies, for example whether to support the fuel tax increases. It is good they eventually opposed that measure on the grounds it would hit the poor and low paid workers, and all to fund more roads. My description had in mind the Greens' support for a neoliberal carbon tax and neoliberal Emissions Trading Scheme. It was also meant not to label all greens as neoliberal but to point out to some of them the direction the organisation is going and the need to link up with others fighting back on the streets and in their workplaces against the Budget. " I think I'm on John's side. The Greens ARE a neoliberal project -- albeit a left liberal one. The European epithet -- 'Neo-liberals on bicycles' to describe green parties -- is registering in Australia. But that doesn't mean that the whole shebang is signed up to the Milne agenda. It's like the erstwhile Labor Party 'socialist' left -- there was a transition played out over time.Indeed the Greens function as an ALP left in a way that the the ALP 'left' does not. What's disappointing is that the Greens' almost craven pragmatism wasn't necessary. There was much more left space than they could have claimed. But the Greens left has been so desultory. So while there are tensions (as Gary points out) their significance isn't registering. Even on the question of 'blocking the federal budget' there has been a return to consensus, despite obvious member angst. Indeed, the Greens have payed a huge price with their budget shenanigans and have been passed on the left by a billionaire coal miner and a Tasmanian independent. Who woulda thought? Talk about dropping the ball! The Greens have lost much of the credibility momentum they have claimed, esp since the 2003 Iraq invasion. I think the fuel tax debate is a distraction from their overriding failure to respond to the here-and-now of Australian politics. Instead there's a left 'opening' in Australian politics broader than it's been for donkey's years. How this context plays out is very relevant to the Marxist left. What DIY is involved isn't at all clear. But it's clear that unless the Greens left register gains, the party is sure to become more of a problem and much less of a 'solution'. I'm assume, indeed I know, that member loyalty is being tested. dave riley Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Thanks Gary. It is true my formulation of the Greens as neoliberal is one-sided and doesn't reflect the very real battles going on in within the organisation over policies, for example whether to support the fuel tax increases. It is good they eventually opposed that measure on the grounds it would hit the poor and low paid workers, and all to fund more roads. My description had in mind the Greens' support for a neoliberal carbon tax and neoliberal Emissions Trading Scheme. It was also meant not to label all greens as neoliberal but to point out to some of them the direction the organisation is going and the need to link up with others fighting back on the streets and in their workplaces against the Budget. I doubt this charterisation is an example of my 'Leninism'. My 'Zinovievism' perhaps, but not my 'Leninism'. John Passant - Original Message - From: Gary MacLennan To: En Passant with John Passant ; Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia? As always, I am largely in agreement with John's post and blog. However, I do wish to interrogate a little his characterization of the Greens as "neo-liberal". I am no groupie type fan of the Greens having spent years attacking them here in Queensland. In fact, I despise their slogan "Neither Left nor Right but out in Front", as a cover for a refusal to undertake the politics of social justice and to recognize capitalism for what it is. Nonetheless, if there is to be a broad regroupment of those who oppose some or all aspects of neo-liberalism, then the Greens could have a role to play. Moreover, we cannot aid political mobility and growth on the left by labeling those, who do not agree with us fully, as "neo-liberal". We should also recognize that popular opposition to austerity has created tension within the Greens. They may have passed the appropriation bills, but they are committed to oppose aspects of the budget which they formerly were going to endorse. It seems that Greens leader, Christine Milne, was rolled in caucus, and her party will now oppose the rise in petrol prices. I feel the Socialist Alliance strategy of trying to maintain contact with the Greens is much better than the Socialist Alternative method of declaring the Greens anathema. John is no longer a member of the Socialist Alternative, but he has yet to embrace fully this as a rupture with the so-called Leninism of the likes of Mick Armstrong. comradely Gary On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 10:29 PM, En Passant with John Passant via Marxism wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia? Such has been the success from the bosses' point of view of the class collaboration of the union leadership and movement over the last 30 years that, by and large, most unionists and concerned community members will not even think about taking control of their unions and the protests to bust the budget with strikes, let alone try to do it. Until such time as we do that we will be in a downward cycle of defeat and despair and the alternating puppet show of neoliberal Labor and the neoliberal Coalition in government, aided by the neoliberal Greens. If we don't fight we lose, now and into the future. http://enpassant.com.au/2014/07/06/where-to-now-for-bust-the-budget/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary.maclennan1%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == As always, I am largely in agreement with John's post and blog. However, I do wish to interrogate a little his characterization of the Greens as "neo-liberal". I am no groupie type fan of the Greens having spent years attacking them here in Queensland. In fact, I despise their slogan "Neither Left nor Right but out in Front", as a cover for a refusal to undertake the politics of social justice and to recognize capitalism for what it is. Nonetheless, if there is to be a broad regroupment of those who oppose some or all aspects of neo-liberalism, then the Greens could have a role to play. Moreover, we cannot aid political mobility and growth on the left by labeling those, who do not agree with us fully, as "neo-liberal". We should also recognize that popular opposition to austerity has created tension within the Greens. They may have passed the appropriation bills, but they are committed to oppose aspects of the budget which they formerly were going to endorse. It seems that Greens leader, Christine Milne, was rolled in caucus, and her party will now oppose the rise in petrol prices. I feel the Socialist Alliance strategy of trying to maintain contact with the Greens is much better than the Socialist Alternative method of declaring the Greens anathema. John is no longer a member of the Socialist Alternative, but he has yet to embrace fully this as a rupture with the so-called Leninism of the likes of Mick Armstrong. comradely Gary On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 10:29 PM, En Passant with John Passant via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia? > > Such has been the success from the bosses' point of view of the class > collaboration of the union leadership and movement over the last 30 years > that, by and large, most unionists and concerned community members will not > even think about taking control of their unions and the protests to bust > the budget with strikes, let alone try to do it. > > Until such time as we do that we will be in a downward cycle of defeat and > despair and the alternating puppet show of neoliberal Labor and the > neoliberal Coalition in government, aided by the neoliberal Greens. If we > don't fight we lose, now and into the future. > > http://enpassant.com.au/2014/07/06/where-to-now-for-bust-the-budget/ > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary.maclennan1%40gmail.com > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Where to now for 'Bust the Budget' in Australia? Such has been the success from the bosses' point of view of the class collaboration of the union leadership and movement over the last 30 years that, by and large, most unionists and concerned community members will not even think about taking control of their unions and the protests to bust the budget with strikes, let alone try to do it. Until such time as we do that we will be in a downward cycle of defeat and despair and the alternating puppet show of neoliberal Labor and the neoliberal Coalition in government, aided by the neoliberal Greens. If we don't fight we lose, now and into the future. http://enpassant.com.au/2014/07/06/where-to-now-for-bust-the-budget/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
