Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
I can get the cooling fan and shroud out in about five minutes now. I've got the MB special socket for the fan clutch center bolt, fits on a 3/8 ratchet. The special tool for holding the pulley is not required if one removes that center bolt occasionally to keep it limber. There are 5mm holes on the back side of the water pump hub and a nice ridge on the top of the water pump body that will act as a stop; stick a 5mm hex key in the hole, center bolt comes loose easy-peasy, pull out the fan and then the shroud. Now you have clear access to the 27mm bolt in the crank hub to work the engine over and also room to loosen the IP mounts if needed. No need to remove the radiator. The key is getting that fan clutch center bolt loose the first time. I have a strap wrench the worked fine, didn't have to get too expensive or crazy. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
Yes. The OM621 shows a suspended reservoir that is hooked up to the fuel supply side of the IP. I don't know why they dropped the drip tube method for the OM60x. Seems like it should work. Biggest problem is there is no good way to turn the crank without taking out the radiator & etc. Curly, I had to read that a couple times before I understood how it would work. I think I've got it; while the IP plunger is rising but the chamber opening is still exposed, delivery hasn't started and the fuel flows out instead of up. Once the chamber opening is covered, further movement of the plunger pushes the fuel up into the dv. As I see it, the trick for using a start-of-delivery method is "pressurizing" the IP circuit without a priming pump. A gravity-fed reservoir would do it. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 On September 20, 2015 11:31:24 AM EDT, Curly McLain via Mercedes wrote: I developed my own method for timing om621/616/617. It does NOT involve removing the pin on the DV. I take a straw and blow the fuel out of the flared part of the connector on the IP (DV holder) for the #1 cyl. turn the engine very slowly when you are coming up to the timing mark. When the fuel just begins to rise, the delivery is starting. I set the time 1 to 2 degrees in advance of the book spec to allow for the fact that delivery actually started, and that the DV spring had to be overcome. It has always worked on the cast iron head engines. I don't like disturbing the DV just to do timing. It increases the possibility of introducing contaminants (grit etc) into the IP. Plus I never had extra seals and orings around to reseal the DV. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
Thanks Scott, I think in my next attempt (if there is one) I'll try using diesel instead of air. I need to figure out a cheap way to provide low pressure fuel into the injection pump. Just changed the oil in the White Whale, took just over an hour from "open garage door" to cleaned up, old oil poured into empty jugs, tools put away and entry made in car's maintenance log. I started the car up to check for oil leaks, and wow! She starts so much better now after the work yesterday. I don't know if I've got the IP timing as good as it can get, but it sure is much better than it was. - Max Charleston SC On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes < mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: > The bubble method works exactly the same way (as drip) except air (being > much less viscous than DF2) can leak past the plunger if the pressure is > too > high making it hard to see when the plunger closes off the fill hole in the > cylinder. > > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
Craig, your question highlights another uncertainty in my method. I haven't found anywhere in the MB literature that there is a specification for the OM603 for the start-of-delivery method. I'm making an assumption that the same spec from the OM617 is applicable -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 On September 20, 2015 5:39:40 PM EDT, Max Dillon wrote: >Nothing about drip timing. Manual says to either use the A-B light to >static tune, or there is a dynamic tune tool that uses the same port on >the IP as the A-B light and I think also a pick-up sensor for input >from the pin on the harmonic balancer disk. > >Last of the OM617 engines had the same port on the IP, and offered both >drip timing or use of the aforementioned special tools. >-- >Max Dillon >Charleston SC >'87 300TD >'95 E300 > >On September 20, 2015 10:21:30 AM EDT, Craig via Mercedes > wrote: >>What does the shop manual say to do? >> ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
The bubble method works exactly the same way (as drip) except air (being much less viscous than DF2) can leak past the plunger if the pressure is too high making it hard to see when the plunger closes off the fill hole in the cylinder. > -Original Message- > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of > Max Dillon via Mercedes > Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 5:50 PM > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Cc: Max Dillon > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today > > Curly, I had to read that a couple times before I understood how it would > work. I think I've got it; while the IP plunger is rising but the chamber opening > is still exposed, delivery hasn't started and the fuel flows out instead of up. > Once the chamber opening is covered, further movement of the plunger > pushes the fuel up into the dv. > > As I see it, the trick for using a start-of-delivery method is "pressurizing" the IP > circuit without a priming pump. A gravity-fed reservoir would do it. > -- > Max Dillon > Charleston SC > '87 300TD > '95 E300 > > On September 20, 2015 11:31:24 AM EDT, Curly McLain via Mercedes > wrote: > >I developed my own method for timing om621/616/617. It does NOT > >involve removing the pin on the DV. I take a straw and blow the fuel > >out of the flared part of the connector on the IP (DV holder) for the > >#1 cyl. turn the engine very slowly when you are coming up to the > >timing mark. When the fuel just begins to rise, the delivery is > >starting. I set the time 1 to 2 degrees in advance of the book spec to > >allow for the fact that delivery actually started, and that the DV > >spring had to be overcome. It has always worked on the cast iron head > >engines. > > > >I don't like disturbing the DV just to do timing. It increases the > >possibility of introducing contaminants (grit etc) into the IP. > >Plus I never had extra seals and orings around to reseal the DV. > > > > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
Bubble method uses air, not fuel, and priming pump is not used. I think maybe my IP is worn and allows air to pass regardless of plunger position? I wonder if a priming pump could be retrofitted? Car started more easily this a.m., far less smoke. I'm eager to see if fuel consumption has decreased. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 On September 20, 2015 11:45:18 AM EDT, "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes" wrote: >That's right the drip/bubble method only works on 617 and older because >you have to have the hand pump. For 60x you need the 2 light tester >deal which is what I use. > >Sent from my iPhone > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
Curly, I had to read that a couple times before I understood how it would work. I think I've got it; while the IP plunger is rising but the chamber opening is still exposed, delivery hasn't started and the fuel flows out instead of up. Once the chamber opening is covered, further movement of the plunger pushes the fuel up into the dv. As I see it, the trick for using a start-of-delivery method is "pressurizing" the IP circuit without a priming pump. A gravity-fed reservoir would do it. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 On September 20, 2015 11:31:24 AM EDT, Curly McLain via Mercedes wrote: >I developed my own method for timing om621/616/617. It does NOT >involve removing the pin on the DV. I take a straw and blow the fuel >out of the flared part of the connector on the IP (DV holder) for the >#1 cyl. turn the engine very slowly when you are coming up to the >timing mark. When the fuel just begins to rise, the delivery is >starting. I set the time 1 to 2 degrees in advance of the book spec >to allow for the fact that delivery actually started, and that the DV >spring had to be overcome. It has always worked on the cast iron >head engines. > >I don't like disturbing the DV just to do timing. It increases the >possibility of introducing contaminants (grit etc) into the IP. >Plus I never had extra seals and orings around to reseal the DV. > > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
Nothing about drip timing. Manual says to either use the A-B light to static tune, or there is a dynamic tune tool that uses the same port on the IP as the A-B light and I think also a pick-up sensor for input from the pin on the harmonic balancer disk. Last of the OM617 engines had the same port on the IP, and offered both drip timing or use of the aforementioned special tools. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 On September 20, 2015 10:21:30 AM EDT, Craig via Mercedes wrote: >What does the shop manual say to do? > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
That's right the drip/bubble method only works on 617 and older because you have to have the hand pump. For 60x you need the 2 light tester deal which is what I use. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 20, 2015, at 10:31 AM, Curly McLain via Mercedes > wrote: > > The drip method is described in the OM621 manual, and I think it may be in > the 616/617 manuals. I used the primer pump to provide pressure. It is done > with Diesel fuel. I have never used air for timing the Ip. On the OM603, I > have only used the static timing lock. > > The theory of the drip method is that when the plunger is not in delivery > mode, the fuel flows freely out the drip tube. At the start of delivery, the > plunger blocks the chamber and the free flow stops. At that point, you read > the position on the crank pointer. > > I developed my own method for timing om621/616/617. It does NOT involve > removing the pin on the DV. I take a straw and blow the fuel out of the > flared part of the connector on the IP (DV holder) for the #1 cyl. turn the > engine very slowly when you are coming up to the timing mark. When the fuel > just begins to rise, the delivery is starting. I set the time 1 to 2 degrees > in advance of the book spec to allow for the fact that delivery actually > started, and that the DV spring had to be overcome. It has always worked on > the cast iron head engines. > > I don't like disturbing the DV just to do timing. It increases the > possibility of introducing contaminants (grit etc) into the IP. Plus I never > had extra seals and orings around to reseal the DV. > > >> My approach may have been flawed, I was using my air compressor with the >> regulator turned down really low, maybe I should have used lung power? >> >> Maybe air is the wrong working medium, and one should use diesel fuel >> instead? >> -- >> Max Dillon >> Charleston SC >> '87 300TD >> '95 E300 > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
The drip method is described in the OM621 manual, and I think it may be in the 616/617 manuals. I used the primer pump to provide pressure. It is done with Diesel fuel. I have never used air for timing the Ip. On the OM603, I have only used the static timing lock. The theory of the drip method is that when the plunger is not in delivery mode, the fuel flows freely out the drip tube. At the start of delivery, the plunger blocks the chamber and the free flow stops. At that point, you read the position on the crank pointer. I developed my own method for timing om621/616/617. It does NOT involve removing the pin on the DV. I take a straw and blow the fuel out of the flared part of the connector on the IP (DV holder) for the #1 cyl. turn the engine very slowly when you are coming up to the timing mark. When the fuel just begins to rise, the delivery is starting. I set the time 1 to 2 degrees in advance of the book spec to allow for the fact that delivery actually started, and that the DV spring had to be overcome. It has always worked on the cast iron head engines. I don't like disturbing the DV just to do timing. It increases the possibility of introducing contaminants (grit etc) into the IP. Plus I never had extra seals and orings around to reseal the DV. My approach may have been flawed, I was using my air compressor with the regulator turned down really low, maybe I should have used lung power? Maybe air is the wrong working medium, and one should use diesel fuel instead? -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 09:47:35 -0400 Max Dillon via Mercedes wrote: > My approach may have been flawed, I was using my air compressor with > the regulator turned down really low, maybe I should have used lung > power? > > Maybe air is the wrong working medium, and one should use diesel fuel > instead? What does the shop manual say to do? Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
My approach may have been flawed, I was using my air compressor with the regulator turned down really low, maybe I should have used lung power? Maybe air is the wrong working medium, and one should use diesel fuel instead? -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 On September 20, 2015 9:15:33 AM EDT, "Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes" wrote: >For some reason I am thinking the bubble method does not work on the >603. > >Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 19, 2015, at 7:54 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes > wrote: >> >> Hmm, bubble method didn't work so well. The stream of bubbles never >came to a complete stop, but there was a distinct reduction. Initially >that drop-off was at about 19° BTDC. Ah hah! The IP timing was too >retarded, if the start of delivery is supposed to be 24° BTDC for an >OM603, same as the OM617. >> >> I checked with the locking tool method to validate, and found that to >be over 16° ATDC. FSM says it should be 15° ATDC, +/- 1°. >> >> I didn't want to set the timing using the bubble method due to the >lack of a clear cut-off in the bubble stream and the disparity versus >the locking tool method, so I set the IP to ~21° BTDC (start of >delivery) by bubble method, which was about 13.5° ATDC by locking tool. >> >> Rebuilt all the delivery valves, Lubro Moly Diesel Purge treatment, >put it all together and clean up, then test. >> >> 0-60 time improved from 13s to 12.25s, and less smoke. >> -- >> Max Dillon >> Charleston SC >> '87 300TD >> '95 E300 >> ___ >> http://www.okiebenz.com >> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >> > >___ >http://www.okiebenz.com > >To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > >To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
For some reason I am thinking the bubble method does not work on the 603. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 19, 2015, at 7:54 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes > wrote: > > Hmm, bubble method didn't work so well. The stream of bubbles never came to a > complete stop, but there was a distinct reduction. Initially that drop-off > was at about 19° BTDC. Ah hah! The IP timing was too retarded, if the start > of delivery is supposed to be 24° BTDC for an OM603, same as the OM617. > > I checked with the locking tool method to validate, and found that to be over > 16° ATDC. FSM says it should be 15° ATDC, +/- 1°. > > I didn't want to set the timing using the bubble method due to the lack of a > clear cut-off in the bubble stream and the disparity versus the locking tool > method, so I set the IP to ~21° BTDC (start of delivery) by bubble method, > which was about 13.5° ATDC by locking tool. > > Rebuilt all the delivery valves, Lubro Moly Diesel Purge treatment, put it > all together and clean up, then test. > > 0-60 time improved from 13s to 12.25s, and less smoke. > -- > Max Dillon > Charleston SC > '87 300TD > '95 E300 > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
ATTABOY! Wilton - Original Message - From: "Max Dillon via Mercedes" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Cc: "Max Dillon" Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today Hmm, bubble method didn't work so well. The stream of bubbles never came to a complete stop, but there was a distinct reduction. Initially that drop-off was at about 19° BTDC. Ah hah! The IP timing was too retarded, if the start of delivery is supposed to be 24° BTDC for an OM603, same as the OM617. I checked with the locking tool method to validate, and found that to be over 16° ATDC. FSM says it should be 15° ATDC, +/- 1°. I didn't want to set the timing using the bubble method due to the lack of a clear cut-off in the bubble stream and the disparity versus the locking tool method, so I set the IP to ~21° BTDC (start of delivery) by bubble method, which was about 13.5° ATDC by locking tool. Rebuilt all the delivery valves, Lubro Moly Diesel Purge treatment, put it all together and clean up, then test. 0-60 time improved from 13s to 12.25s, and less smoke. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
Hmm, bubble method didn't work so well. The stream of bubbles never came to a complete stop, but there was a distinct reduction. Initially that drop-off was at about 19° BTDC. Ah hah! The IP timing was too retarded, if the start of delivery is supposed to be 24° BTDC for an OM603, same as the OM617. I checked with the locking tool method to validate, and found that to be over 16° ATDC. FSM says it should be 15° ATDC, +/- 1°. I didn't want to set the timing using the bubble method due to the lack of a clear cut-off in the bubble stream and the disparity versus the locking tool method, so I set the IP to ~21° BTDC (start of delivery) by bubble method, which was about 13.5° ATDC by locking tool. Rebuilt all the delivery valves, Lubro Moly Diesel Purge treatment, put it all together and clean up, then test. 0-60 time improved from 13s to 12.25s, and less smoke. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
Curly, EGR has been blocked off, vacuum line plugged, for years. I think the IP is the issue, it is a "new" used IP, long story, I need to dial it in. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 On September 19, 2015 10:39:07 AM EDT, Curly McLain via Mercedes wrote: >>White Whale ('87 300TD): >>She has been running a little smoky and >>returning fewer miles per gallon, and I've been >>messing with the injection pump, so today I'm >>going to: >>Set the IP timing using the bubble method to 25° >>BTDC; overhaul all the delivery valves with new >>copper washers, new springs and O-rings; and >>maybe a diesel purge treatment if the first two >>don't deliver the results I'm looking for. I've >>also got an oil change due, so that will be last. >>-- >>Max Dillon >>Charleston SC >>'87 300TD >>'95 E300 > > >Does it have the vacuum line unplugged or blocked >with a BB at the EGR dashpot at the front of the >exhaust manifold. If not, unplug the vacuum >line and plug the vacuum. > >The egr hangs open and causes the symptoms you >describe. If it is stuck open, I am not sure >what options you have other than to buy a new EGR >valve for probably hundreds of $, or to remove >and block the openings. > >There was someone who sold a kit on this list >maybe 10 years ago to remove and plug the EGR. >That cleans up the engine bay considerably. I >think I bought 3 kits at the time. > >___ >http://www.okiebenz.com > >To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > >To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Max's work list today
White Whale ('87 300TD): She has been running a little smoky and returning fewer miles per gallon, and I've been messing with the injection pump, so today I'm going to: Set the IP timing using the bubble method to 25° BTDC; overhaul all the delivery valves with new copper washers, new springs and O-rings; and maybe a diesel purge treatment if the first two don't deliver the results I'm looking for. I've also got an oil change due, so that will be last. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 Does it have the vacuum line unplugged or blocked with a BB at the EGR dashpot at the front of the exhaust manifold. If not, unplug the vacuum line and plug the vacuum. The egr hangs open and causes the symptoms you describe. If it is stuck open, I am not sure what options you have other than to buy a new EGR valve for probably hundreds of $, or to remove and block the openings. There was someone who sold a kit on this list maybe 10 years ago to remove and plug the EGR. That cleans up the engine bay considerably. I think I bought 3 kits at the time. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] Max's work list today
White Whale ('87 300TD): She has been running a little smoky and returning fewer miles per gallon, and I've been messing with the injection pump, so today I'm going to: Set the IP timing using the bubble method to 25° BTDC; overhaul all the delivery valves with new copper washers, new springs and O-rings; and maybe a diesel purge treatment if the first two don't deliver the results I'm looking for. I've also got an oil change due, so that will be last. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '87 300TD '95 E300 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com