Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote: At 12:02 PM +0200 5/31/2007, Robert Brenstein wrote: Just for curiosity, I just launched HC and checked it out. Script Editor is modeless. The search script handler has if the script of this stack contains pattern then edit script of this stack repeat with curBgnd = 1 to the number of backgrounds ... All objects are checked the same way, so apparently the script suspends while script editor is opened and continues after it is closed. If I remember correctly, this is because the HC script editor is a self-contained external (a version 2.0 external - which has some capabilities that the MC/Rev interface lacks). Since the script editor in MC is a stack, it can't take advantage of this. (Darn.) Regardless of how the script editor was implemented, was it modal? It's been a while since I've used it, but I had the impression it was modeless, so that one could leave the window open and get back to the stack. But if it was modeless, how does the ss handler know to suspend activity when it opens a script editor window? And what triggers it to resume again? Been a long time since I used it, so I may just not be recalling it correctly -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Richard Gaskin wrote: Regardless of how the script editor was implemented, was it modal? It's been a while since I've used it, but I had the impression it was modeless, so that one could leave the window open and get back to the stack. But if it was modeless, how does the ss handler know to suspend activity when it opens a script editor window? And what triggers it to resume again? It was modeless, but HC itself suspended script execution whenever the edit command was issued. It automatically resumed where it left off when the editor was closed, so stopping for each script during the searchscript handler was automatic. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
If I remember correctly, this is because the HC script editor is a self-contained external (a version 2.0 external - which has some capabilities that the MC/Rev interface lacks). Since the script editor in MC is a stack, it can't take advantage of this. (Darn.) -- jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.jaedworks.com I wonder whether it could be possible to call the script editor as a modal window when doing the all-script search. This would essentially reproduce the HC functionality me thinks. Robert ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
On Thu, 31 May 2007 15:20:55 -0400 Shari wrote: So that means any MC solution cannot take you from script to script to edit? Shari, If you really want HyperCard style ss search, try the solution I posted 2 days ago on this list. It's a hack but if you would not open and close stacks while handler takes you from script to script, it would work. When you close the script window the handler would take you to the script of next object that contains the search string. If something goes wrong or you want to stop handler taking you from script to script, just press command + shift key simultaneously. Below is modified HyperCard ss handler. You can include substacks in search by put the substacks of this stack and loop through resulting list as well. on mouseUp ss end mouseUp on ss tSearchWhat,stackName global ScriptFindString -- HyperTalk global variable set lockRecent to true push card -- remember where we are if tSearchWhat is empty then ask Search for what string? with ScriptFindString -- ∆ if (it is empty) or (the result is Cancel) then exit searchScript put it into tSearchWhat -- otherwise use it as the search tSearchWhat end if put tSearchWhat into ScriptFindString set lockMessages to true -- avoid open messages if stackName is not empty then go to stack stackName end if set lockMessages to false if the script of this stack contains tSearchWhatthen then edit script of this stack HoldTheExecution end if repeat with curCard = 1 to the number of cards if the script of card curCard contains tSearchWhat then edit the script of card curCard HoldTheExecution end if repeat with curControl = 1 to the number of controls if the script of control curControl contains tSearchWhat then edit the script of control curControl of card curCard HoldTheExecution end if end repeat end repeat end ss on HoldTheExecution set the cursor to iBeam put number of lines of the OpenStacks into N repeat until number of lines of the OpenStacks N if the commandkey is down and the shiftkey is down then exit to top wait for messages end repeat end HoldTheExecution best regards Tariel ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
I have asked several times since using MC about searching all scripts, and never got a really good solution. I MISS the Hypercard ss function. That was awesome! It just took you to each instance, let you change it, then moved on to the next one. Was HC's script editor modal? I'd thought it wasn't. If not, how did ss suspend while the script was being edited? Just for curiosity, I just launched HC and checked it out. Script Editor is modeless. The search script handler has if the script of this stack contains pattern then edit script of this stack repeat with curBgnd = 1 to the number of backgrounds ... All objects are checked the same way, so apparently the script suspends while script editor is opened and continues after it is closed. I don't have MC here to check. Robert ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Robert Brenstein wrote: All objects are checked the same way, so apparently the script suspends while script editor is opened and continues after it is closed. Right, it's built into the HC engine. MC and Rev don't do that, since their editors are just stacks. The script editor in HyperCard was a dialog resource built into the application and controlled specially by the app code. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Right, it's built into the HC engine. MC and Rev don't do that, since their editors are just stacks. The script editor in HyperCard was a dialog resource built into the application and controlled specially by the app code. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay So that means any MC solution cannot take you from script to script to edit? One of the biggest issues I've had with list-based search scripts is that I often have dozens of hits spanning multiple stacks. After changing the first three or four, I lose track of which link I clicked on and end up starting over. Plus doing the whole manual Open, Edit, Save and Close script dozens of times :-) Shari -- Windows and Macintosh shareware games BIackjack Gold http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Shari wrote: Right, it's built into the HC engine. MC and Rev don't do that, since their editors are just stacks. The script editor in HyperCard was a dialog resource built into the application and controlled specially by the app code. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay So that means any MC solution cannot take you from script to script to edit? Well, maybe there is a way but it would be tricky to implement. That's why all the examples you've seen have provided the results in a separate list. One way to keep track is to just keep an eye on the titlebar of the script editor, which will tell you where you're at. The search stack I wrote for myself also retains the selection of the script that's opened, so that also provides a clue. (Did I send you that one?) I do, however, use the ss command in the message box to bring up my search stack. It's a handler in my custom backscript, which loads when MC is launched. on ss palette searchScripts end ss -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
One way to keep track is to just keep an eye on the titlebar of the script editor, which will tell you where you're at. The search stack I wrote for myself also retains the selection of the script that's opened, so that also provides a clue. (Did I send you that one?) I do, however, use the ss command in the message box to bring up my search stack. It's a handler in my custom backscript, which loads when MC is launched. on ss palette searchScripts end ss I don't have it, no. If it searches all substacks in a stack, I'd like to give it a whirl :-) Shari -- Windows and Macintosh shareware games BIackjack Gold http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Concerning stack wide search, I guess like many of us, I wrote my own a while ago. It's sort of enhanced control browser that shows the structure of multiple stacks of interest and their substacks at once and can search scripts across them, even searches the script of unplaced Bg Groups if any. The problem is that the interface is ugly and definitely not user friendly. Besides, anything like such stack would deviate from the philosophy of a lightweight IDE. it's more like personal tool. I had something similar that somebody created. It would list every object in a separate window. I would start opening the objects to edit their scripts, but after the first few would forget where I left off in the list not uncommon to have dozens of objects with a particular word or phrase I wish to change :-) -- Windows and Macintosh shareware games Blackjack Gold http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
On Tue, 29 May 2007, Tariel Gogoberidze wrote: 1) Wilhelm Sanke wrote excellent stack SearchDocs XML 2.6.1.mc a while ago. http://www.sanke.org/MetaMedia/Screenshots.htm Unfortunately it can process only pre vs 7.x Rev documentation (in operates on vs 2.6.1 to be precise) but it covers almost all my needs and the great strength of this solution is that it finds all instances of the search word, even in descriptions and comments. In a way it makes instant cross indexing of the whole documentation (Dictionary + FAQ + Topics) by given search word. After the change of the file format of the Rev documentation I was busy with other things and not sure whether the Rev team would not change the format again in the near future. Therefore I personally continued to use my last Searchdocs stack, which I still use rather frequently, and discontinued any effforts to adapt the SearchDocs tools. I will take a look ar Björnke's stack. 2) For the latest docs (Rev 2.8.1) I use a stack from Björnke http://bjoernke.com/runrev/stacks.php Best regards Tariel As a fast script-search tool I have used my private MCBrowser, which I did not offer as a public tool as there were other similar or equivalent tools around (e.g. Klaus Major, Richard Gaskin). I have now put it on my website for download, inspection, and possible improvement. The stack is from 2001 with minor bug fixes later and is a really very fast script-search tool. There maybe some bugs in it, which did not hurt me much as I used the stack only as a personal tool. It think it could be easily enhanced to include substacks, but my present work demands prevent any further development at the moment. From the description on my website: The Metacard version of the above RevBrowser. It is basically an enhanced and refined Metacard Control Browser with an added fast-search function that lets you search all scripts of a stack. The search tool lists all found scripts lines - with the searchstring colored - along with the addresses of the objects. Clicking on the object address enables you to edit the respective script. (Stack is from 2001, may have some bugs, and especially is unable to deal with unplaced groups). You can get the stack from here: http://www.sanke.org/Software/MCBrowser.zip or from page Tools and Samples for Development http://www.sanke.org/MetaMedia/SamplesTools.htm Regards, Wilhelm Sanke ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
On May 29, 2007, at 7:57 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: If Rev is a rose, compellingly colorful, MC is a lotus blossom, infinitely flowering. I sense a sonnet, nay... an ode to MC is on the way...;-) I've prepared a book cover for you: http://ezpzapps.com/Bodhidharma_sims.jpg Some time in the desert is a good thing Richard ;-) ciao, sims ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
But why not do what a lot of us have done -- create something in Rev exclusively. When I decided to learn Rev, I just jumped in at the beginning and made a whole project in it. I set aside one stack that I forbid myself to open in MC. You learn it quick that way. :) I don't have the time to figure out how to appease it. I'm sure it is something simple, but without knowing exactly how it errors and where, it's hard to know what's wrong. If you feel like it, send me a copy of the problem stack, and I'll take a look at it in Rev if you want. I'm curious what errors you are getting and why. I have a newer project that I will probably do this with, or perhaps simpler projects. The adventure game can probably live harmoniously in both, as I haven't done anything weird with it yet. I have other projects that can probably live harmoniously in both. But the happy stack is highly complex, so many stacks, so many objects, and parts of the code are even hard for me to understand (I did that as an anti-piracy preventer). It even stumps the Script Debugger at times, so I don't use that either :-) Thank you for the offer, Jacque. You are very sweet :-) Shari -- Windows and Macintosh shareware games Blackjack Gold http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Shari wrote: Richard wrote: The meta-question implied by all of this seems to be: Why switch? More specifically, what features in the Rev IDE make it interesting, and what could be done to the MC IDE to exceed it? The logic was two-fold the Metacard GUI is supported by volunteers. Anything supported by volunteers eventually gets very stressed. ... So.what are the odds that my beloved GUI will be around for a very long time? I hope my last post addressed that question. I maintain the belief that it's in the best interest of MC fans, Rev fans, and RunRev Ltd. to see that the MC IDE continues to be maintained and expanded. When a gene pool is too limited we get deformity. Diversity is nature's guide to success. I remember the disappearance of Hypercard, and the demise of that program hurt me. It hurt all of us, and none more so than Apple (yet I doubt they have anyone left with enough imagination to understand what it could have been; the world is bigger than Widgets). With HC the whole product died. The only thing that would prevent MC from running would be the demise of RunRev, in which case it wouldn't matter which IDE you'd been using. But as long as Rev is kicking, MC can continue dancing right alongside; they're both just a bunch of stack, and they both use the same engine. While it is a volunteer effort, the MC IDE is maintained by professionals who need to remain close to the engine. As long as there are developers who appreciate the benefits of clearly discerning the difference between development and runtime and enjoy streamlining their work by reducing these differences to the barest possible, there will be a future for MC. Long live the Revolution. Let's see if we can make it revolutionary. Having addressed the Why, let's look at the How: The second part of the logic was that yes, the Rev GUI has a few (and I do say few) things I seriously wish the MC GUI had. Historically the MC IDE project had maintained a mandate for minimal change to preserve the things we liked about it. As a baseline I think that mandate still has some value, but I have to admit that it's too sparse to let me get my work done efficiently by itself, which is why I invested the time making devolution. Maintaining the minimal-change mandate makes sense in many respects, and keeping it current lets use add the parts we want with plugins, which means they can also interoperate with Rev and Galaxy as well. This example is a good test case: One is the Search All Scripts function. This is pretty major. I cannot jump back and forth between the two GUI's to take advantage of one function or another, if my programs don't work in the Rev GUI. Even if your stacks could be moved back and forth without error, why bother with the extra work? Short-term: devolution has a GUI script search tool, allowing searches of all objects in a stack or the current message path. Longer-term: Who wants to write a Transcript equivalent of HC's ss command? Any problems with asking Klaus to put that in MC's backScript? The ability to set parameters for a standalone and have it remember my settings, so that every update I didn't have to do it again, would be nice. Remember, Rev has one-click builds because Ken and I have been using my Standalone Ranger for so long we insisted on it. :) Short-term: My Standalone Ranger is a front-end to MC's Standalone Builder, which lets you save the settings to a custom prop in the target stack's first card (yes, I know it's prop, but it's optional and you're made aware of what it's doing; no behind-you-back property hijacking). If you promise to provide feedback I can email it to you. Long-term: In my spare time I've been integrating MC's builder directly into my Standalone Ranger UI, with more options for an even easier build (taking advantage of RIP properties) and allowing it to be used in Rev as a plugin as well. This will take a bit to finish, but it puts an interesting twist on the build process which I think folks will find handy. This more complete implementation will provide all of the conveniences of Rev's, and then some. In some ways it has better documentation as well, though in others it fails pretty seriously. Agreed. Ideally we'd get a volunteer to be the owner for the mcDictionary project. There's an earlier version in MC Yahoo Group which grabs all the thousands of tiny XML files and puts them into a stack which can take advantage of the performance and flexibility of the object model. If someone would be willing to do the small task of updating that for the latest docs format (extra bonus points: convince RunRev to stop changing the format g), it may be good to include it with the IDE installation, perhaps replacing the outdated Dictionary stack it has now. I'm sure there are other things I cannot think of at the moment. I have one: simpler, smarter installation. I started down this road with FlipsIDE,
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
It hurt all of us, and none more so than Apple (yet I doubt they have anyone left with enough imagination to understand what it could have been; the world is bigger than Widgets). I thought I heard rumor recently of some new thing Apple was working on. I remember thinking that if they came out with any sort of xCode product, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole because I wouldn't want to be ditched again. So yes, they did hurt themselves as well. I remember people were begging them to open source HC. It could have lived on and been expanded. In a way, it actually did, through all the efforts and hard work of Metacard. MC is what HC should have become, but never did. Long live the Revolution. Hear, hear! Long live the Revolution! Historically the MC IDE project had maintained a mandate for minimal change to preserve the things we liked about it. As a baseline I think that mandate still has some value, but I have to admit that it's too sparse to let me get my work done efficiently by itself, which is why I invested the time making devolution. I've heard of Devolution and Galaxy, but really don't know what they are. It is very confusing. Are they alternate IDE's, replacing the Metacard IDE? Or are they plugins to the MC IDE? Even if your stacks could be moved back and forth without error, why bother with the extra work? You hit upon the exact reason I thought it was worth looking into the Rev IDE. With the thought of an eventual switchover. But I just couldn't be happy in it, not now, not at this time. It's too irritating. (sad smile) Remember, Rev has one-click builds because Ken and I have been using my Standalone Ranger for so long we insisted on it. :) Short-term: My Standalone Ranger is a front-end to MC's Standalone Builder, which lets you save the settings to a custom prop in the target stack's first card (yes, I know it's prop, but it's optional and you're made aware of what it's doing; no behind-you-back property hijacking). If you promise to provide feedback I can email it to you. I would love to. I'm getting ready to turn the Happy Stack into a standalone in the next couple weeks (or more likely on Thursday.) It's an update, and has been made into a standalone maybe 20 versions by now? So it's an old pro. If any stack could give your SR a workout, this stack would ;-) If SR survived this project, I'd say it was built like a tank :-D Agreed. Ideally we'd get a volunteer to be the owner for the mcDictionary project. There's an earlier version in MC Yahoo Group which grabs all the thousands of tiny XML files and puts them into a stack which can take advantage of the performance and flexibility of the object model. I thought there was something like this in the works already? I seem to recall hearing about it a year or two ago? But I hadn't upgraded to Rev/MC yet, so couldn't partake of it. I seem to recall talk of something where anyone could share pieces of code, that would become part of a universal dictionary of sorts for Rev/MC. So I started sketching out it's successor, DarksIDE: a Rev plugin with just one button: Install MetaCard. It would do all the steps we currently do manually, from rebuilding the engine to downloading the IDE to importing the Dictionary content, putting everything into a new folder all tidy and ready to go. This reminds me, does the Standalone Ranger also update the infoplist and pkginfo files on MacOSX so that we don't have to go into the Contents folder and do it manually? Icons, too, by any chance? I have asked several times since using MC about searching all scripts, and never got a really good solution. I MISS the Hypercard ss function. That was awesome! It just took you to each instance, let you change it, then moved on to the next one. Was HC's script editor modal? I'd thought it wasn't. If not, how did ss suspend while the script was being edited? LOL! I have no idea. But no feature ever was missed more than this feature :-) There are many who expound on the benefits of open source. This is an opportunity to demonstrate those benefits, delivering an IDE which is to Rev what Firefox is to Internet Explorer. Firefox? Eh? Vat iz dis? Shari -- Windows and Macintosh shareware games Blackjack Gold http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
On May 29, 2007, at 08:55:36 -0700, Richard Gaskin wrote: 1. Search (and edit) all scripts in a stack, including substacks 2. More advanced standalone saving 3. More detailed info in the Help docs a. Often the Help Index assumes you know something already, sometimes I want to learn something new, and the Help Index doesn't give me enough to even make the attempt, I must search thru the online archives in the hopes that somebody posted detailed code in answering somebody else's question. Even a line or two of example code would be useful, but often isn't there. Great summary. I think the path forward is an invitation to the open source advocates in the Rev community to put up: With Klaus maintaining his role in coordinating things (thank you Klaus!), we could use owners for these components just as we've had owners for other components (e.g. Ken's done a wonderful job managing the Variable Watcher). I'm willing to be owner of the Standalone Builder. Do we have folks here willing to take on Search and Docs? Concerning Docs it's sort of done already. 1) Wilhelm Sanke wrote excellent stack SearchDocs XML 2.6.1.mc a while ago. http://www.sanke.org/MetaMedia/Screenshots.htm Unfortunately it can process only pre vs 7.x Rev documentation (in operates on vs 2.6.1 to be precise) but it covers almost all my needs and the great strength of this solution is that it finds all instances of the search word, even in descriptions and comments. In a way it makes instant cross indexing of the whole documentation (Dictionary + FAQ + Topics) by given search word. 2) For the latest docs (Rev 2.8.1) I use a stack from Björnke http://bjoernke.com/runrev/stacks.php It works fine in MC (just drop it in MC plug-Ins folder, set the externals of this stack to RevXML and follow it's set up instructions. Stack would create folder with about 1500 XML files in it, but I can leave with that. It even has built in tool to customize it's own layout and I believe it can be easily adopted to use Ken's XML library instead of RevXML if needed. Concerning stack wide search, I guess like many of us, I wrote my own a while ago. It's sort of enhanced control browser that shows the structure of multiple stacks of interest and their substacks at once and can search scripts across them, even searches the script of unplaced Bg Groups if any. The problem is that the interface is ugly and definitely not user friendly. Besides, anything like such stack would deviate from the philosophy of a lightweight IDE. it's more like personal tool. As for HyperCard style ss script search, I think it should be possible to do in MC. All it takes is to hold execution of the ss search script while user edits the script of the object that contains search string. Execution can be hold with wait for messages, the problem is what should be the release trigger. Off the top of my head here is the ugly hack that would imitate HyperCard ss script search behavior on searchScript tSearchWhat,stackName -- ... snip.. repeat with curControl = 1 to the number of controls if the script of control curControl contains tSearchWhat then edit the script of control curControl of card curCard HoldTheExecution end if end repeat -- ... snip... end searchScript on HoldTheExecution put number of lines of the OpenStacks into N repeat until number of lines of the OpenStacks N if the commandkey is down and the shiftkey is down then exit to top -- just in case something goes wrong wait for messages end repeat end HoldTheExecution The idea is that when script editing is done, the user closes Script Editor stack by pressing enter key and searchScript handler moves to the script of the next object that contains search string. Now, there must be a lot of better ways to do that, I'm just saying that if one really wants to have the HyperCard style ss script search it should be possible to do it in MC. Best regards Tariel What other areas might we consider? The philosophy of a lightweight IDE continues to hold appeal for serious developers. If we can elevate MC's usability and affordances to meet or exceed Rev's while still holding true to that philosophy, I see no reason why any switching couldn't be happening in the other direction, just as it is with Galaxy. There are many who expound on the benefits of open source. This is an opportunity to demonstrate those benefits, delivering an IDE which is to Rev what Firefox is to Internet Explorer. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Stepping back to look at the big picture, the meta-question implied by all of this seems to be: Why switch? More specifically, what features in the Rev IDE make it interesting, and what could be done to the MC IDE to exceed it? My hunch is that for any compelling element in the Rev IDE we can find a way to support the same benefit in MC, with the added benefits MC has long provided in terms of flexibility, simplicity, and leaving custom props for custom use. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Richard, The logic was two-fold the Metacard GUI is supported by volunteers. Anything supported by volunteers eventually gets very stressed. I have worked for volunteer organizations (the Atlanta Macintosh Users Group - I used to take the minutes of their meetings). Our homeowner association is also this way. Somebody volunteers, and for life, they have a non-paying job that nobody else will volunteer for. So... what are the odds that my beloved GUI will be around for a very long time? I pondered this question and figured that maybe, the time to contemplate a switch was NOT when I had no choice anymore. Not when it was a do or die thing, forced by the retirement of my GUI. I remember the disappearance of Hypercard, and the demise of that program hurt me. I still have software that was in beta testing in HC, almost ready for release, that is still just sitting there. It doesn't just smoothly transport into MC. It requires a lot of changes and major rewrites, at least the stuff that I have created. The correlation being that something goes poof, and many changes are required to move to something else. The second part of the logic was that yes, the Rev GUI has a few (and I do say few) things I seriously wish the MC GUI had. One is the Search All Scripts function. This is pretty major. I cannot jump back and forth between the two GUI's to take advantage of one function or another, if my programs don't work in the Rev GUI. The ability to set parameters for a standalone and have it remember my settings, so that every update I didn't have to do it again, would be nice. In some ways it has better documentation as well, though in others it fails pretty seriously. I'm sure there are other things I cannot think of at the moment. I have asked several times since using MC about searching all scripts, and never got a really good solution. I MISS the Hypercard ss function. That was awesome! It just took you to each instance, let you change it, then moved on to the next one. At this time, I have no working solution at all. And this bites me a lot when I need to change something throughout several stacks, and maybe dozens of scripts, hoping I don't miss something and thus create a bug. I love the MC GUI. It is hardy. It doesn't clutter. I am used to it :-) And it doesn't throw up a gazillion illogical errors when I launch a happy stack :-) I just thought that maybe, I should look into the Rev GUI without dismissing it so quickly, as I had done previously. I thought perhaps it would take just a few small changes to appease it. But after the quantity of errors I encountered, even after removing all embedded stacks, I am abandoning it once again. I don't have the time to figure out how to appease it. Obviously it is a project that would require days, not an hour or two, and I have a LOT of programming to do :-) If I were to boil it down to the basic features I wish for: 1. Search (and edit) all scripts in a stack, including substacks 2. More advanced standalone saving 3. More detailed info in the Help docs a. Often the Help Index assumes you know something already, sometimes I want to learn something new, and the Help Index doesn't give me enough to even make the attempt, I must search thru the online archives in the hopes that somebody posted detailed code in answering somebody else's question. Even a line or two of example code would be useful, but often isn't there. Shari Stepping back to look at the big picture, the meta-question implied by all of this seems to be: Why switch? More specifically, what features in the Rev IDE make it interesting, and what could be done to the MC IDE to exceed it? My hunch is that for any compelling element in the Rev IDE we can find a way to support the same benefit in MC, with the added benefits MC has long provided in terms of flexibility, simplicity, and leaving custom props for custom use. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard -- Windows and Macintosh shareware games Blackjack Gold http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Shari wrote: I pondered this question and figured that maybe, the time to contemplate a switch was NOT when I had no choice anymore. I think that's sound, whether MC IDE goes away or not. Knowing how to use Rev is useful, just like knowing how to drive any kind of car, whether it's an automatic or a stick shift. I love the MC GUI. It is hardy. It doesn't clutter. I am used to it :-) And it doesn't throw up a gazillion illogical errors when I launch a happy stack :-) I think your experience is pretty rare. There is the known thing about duplicate stacks, particularly ask/answer, but any other errors should be the same in either IDE. I routinely have stacks open in both MC and Rev (often at the same time, though that's dangerous.) I switch back and forth all the time. I just thought that maybe, I should look into the Rev GUI without dismissing it so quickly, as I had done previously. I thought perhaps it would take just a few small changes to appease it. But after the quantity of errors I encountered, even after removing all embedded stacks, I am abandoning it once again. I still think that once identified, it would be just a small change. But why not do what a lot of us have done -- create something in Rev exclusively. When I decided to learn Rev, I just jumped in at the beginning and made a whole project in it. I set aside one stack that I forbid myself to open in MC. You learn it quick that way. :) I don't have the time to figure out how to appease it. I'm sure it is something simple, but without knowing exactly how it errors and where, it's hard to know what's wrong. If you feel like it, send me a copy of the problem stack, and I'll take a look at it in Rev if you want. I'm curious what errors you are getting and why. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
J. Landman Gay wrote: Shari wrote: I pondered this question and figured that maybe, the time to contemplate a switch was NOT when I had no choice anymore. I see no worries there. First there was MC, then Rev, then Galaxy, soon M2, then who knows. Rather than no choice, the future seems moving toward an ever greater range of choices. I think that's sound, whether MC IDE goes away or not. MC has been around since long before Rev was born, and will be around at least as long as Rev. Knowing how to use Rev is useful, just like knowing how to drive any kind of car, whether it's an automatic or a stick shift. Precisely why MC remains valuable. MC may be lightweight, but it represents a very with-the-grain way of using the engine to develop, and its nimble nature makes it less intrusive and in many ways both more flexible and more instructive than Rev. If Rev is a rose, compellingly colorful, MC is a lotus blossom, infinitely flowering. While MC represents the engine in its barest naked glory, the Rev IDE represents the specific workflow methods of Kevin Miller and his friends circa 1997. The engine is flexible enough to allow people to solve problems in a nearly infinite number of ways, and many have, and often in ways different than how Kevin did. The Rev IDE represents just one set of possible options. If MetaCard, Galaxy, and M2 went away, future generations of Rev users would only understand one mode of thought, the Kevin Doctrine. I like Kevin and he's a very bright fellow, but for all the good things he has going for him he isn't is infinite. Yet the engine is. As Scott Raney used to say when he encouraged Kevin to publish his own IDE, Let a thousand flowers bloom. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Rev doesn't change anything in your stack or your scripts, so I'm not sure how that could happen. The SB doesn't touch your stack at all, except to add a few custom properties that are harmless. Maybe it's those IDE embedded stacks causing trouble? Best to remove the ask/answer and file selector stacks in MC before the stack ever even sees Rev. If you have two stacks with the same name, the engine can't tell which one you are refering to. Some of the errors may be due to this confusion. Rev tries hard to avoid the problem, and it is mostly old MC stacks that are an issue. Rev users generally don't embed any IDE stacks, and Rev doesn't even provide a GUI to do it. I deleted them via the Control Browser, or whatever Rev calls it. The heirarchy was listed, and I deleted from there using the Right-Click menu on the mouse, I think. I did discover however, that somehow, when I aborted the plan and tried to build Metacard 2.8.1 so that I could go back to the happy way, it failed. Long story short, I am now wondering if it did indeed delete the right Answer etc. stacks, from my project rather than Rev. But Rev launches, so ? Is there any way that somewhere in the stack, Rev found a remembered path in my stack to the MC GUI stacks, and deleted from there? Because when I tried to create MC 2.8.1, it (Metacard itself) wouldn't launch either, and threw up an error about damaged or missing components. I go back to an earlier save. Launch, remove embedded stacks, quit. But this doesn't appease Revolution. It doesn't like my stack. It breaks it. Once I launch it, it will launch the first time, but no matter what changes I make inside of it, once I quit, I cannot relaunch it. It attempts a launch then quits. I have a vague recollection that duplicate stack files will cause this behavior. Once you remove the embedded IDE stacks in MC, save the stack before opening it in Rev. If you just remove them in the Rev IDE, you may accidentally remove the IDE stacks rather than the ones embedded in your own stack. Also, remember that MC's ask/answer stacks are not the same as Rev's, and haven't been updated for a long time. There could very well be code confusion when the two version clash. It always launched the first time, even with the embeddeds. But after diddling around in it and quitting, it wouldn't launch a second time. The earlier save yet again.. I try to find the script it is triggering (and shouldn't be) thru the nifty Search All Embedded Stacks, but the script isn't found. The script in question automatically quits if the main stack isn't loaded. The main stack should absolutely be loaded. So Revolution changed something, and now the external stack doesn't recognize the main stack. (There are both embedded stacks and external ones.) Is your stack password protected? Rev can't always work with those and may not be able to find scripts in a protected stack. Remove the password, and instead set the standalone builder (in Standalone Settings) set the password for you on build. This is another thing that is different from MC. Yes, there are several different password protected stacks involved. Some are embedded in the standalone, others reside outside the standalone. The standalone launches these stacks or gets data from them during launch. If it cannot access these stacks, then no, the project wouldn't launch. I remember that I couldn't find the Passkey button to edit the scripts, and I figured it just got moved someplace else in Rev. That frustrated, too :-) Does the Rev standalone builder allow you to set different passwords for different stacks which are embedded? What about stacks that are not embedded? Relegated to the message box? I'd be very surprised if Rev changed anything in your stack, I've worked back and forth between MC and Rev for years and have never seen that happen. I routinely write in MC and build in Rev. However, I never set passwords on stacks I will build as standalones (I let the SB do it for me) and I never embed IDE components. Those are about the only two rules I can think of. I had taken all of them out, everything but my own created embeds. Saved and quit. Relaunched. And it wouldn't even launch. Maybe at that point it was the password issue. I had spent hours on it battling error after error after error, and just ended up with my happy Metacard in the end. Nothing makes you appreciate the Metacard GUI more than a day in the Rev GUI :-) I figure that maybe I can do new projects in Rev, I had really looked forward to the standalone part, where I enter the info and it remembers forever. But this project, which is pretty complex... and I don't want to rework a lot of it, just update it every now and again I guess it needs to just stay with Metacard. I had wanted it to be happy in both. I really thought a few minor adjustments would suffice. As for the
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
On May 26, 2007, at 8:22 AM, Shari wrote: As for the Ask/Answer issue, they were embedded because I changed the look slightly to be more in line with my program. I, too, changed the look of MC's ask and answer and embedded them in my standalones. I found a general solution to this problem that I've been happy with for a long time: - Rename your custom ask/answer dialogs to something line MyAsk and MyAnswer and make them substacks of your standalone stack. - In the startup handler of your standalone, put statements like: if not(there is a stack ask) then set the name of stack myAsk to ask This means that while you're in the IDE, you'll see the Rev/MC ask and answer dialogs, but in your standalone your custom dialogs will appear. No conflicts. Ever! t -- Tereza Snyder Califex Software, Inc. ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
What an elegant solution! Simple, elegant, I love it! Shari I, too, changed the look of MC's ask and answer and embedded them in my standalones. I found a general solution to this problem that I've been happy with for a long time: - Rename your custom ask/answer dialogs to something line MyAsk and MyAnswer and make them substacks of your standalone stack. - In the startup handler of your standalone, put statements like: if not(there is a stack ask) then set the name of stack myAsk to ask This means that while you're in the IDE, you'll see the Rev/MC ask and answer dialogs, but in your standalone your custom dialogs will appear. No conflicts. Ever! t -- Tereza Snyder Califex Software, Inc. -- Gypsy King games for MAC and WlND0WS http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Hi Tereza, yes, extremely wonderful hint! Chapeau, monsieur! :-) What an elegant solution! Simple, elegant, I love it! Shari I, too, changed the look of MC's ask and answer and embedded them in my standalones. I found a general solution to this problem that I've been happy with for a long time: - Rename your custom ask/answer dialogs to something line MyAsk and MyAnswer and make them substacks of your standalone stack. - In the startup handler of your standalone, put statements like: if not(there is a stack ask) then set the name of stack myAsk to ask This means that while you're in the IDE, you'll see the Rev/MC ask and answer dialogs, but in your standalone your custom dialogs will appear. No conflicts. Ever! t -- Tereza Snyder Califex Software, Inc. Regards Klaus Major [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.major-k.de ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Shari wrote: Long story short, I am now wondering if it did indeed delete the right Answer etc. stacks, from my project rather than Rev. But Rev launches, so ? Is there any way that somewhere in the stack, Rev found a remembered path in my stack to the MC GUI stacks, and deleted from there? No, not likely. Remember, Rev uses the same engine as MC. If you tell it to delete a stack, it looks in the currently open stacks and tries to find it. If you provide a long file name, it will look there. Because when I tried to create MC 2.8.1, it (Metacard itself) wouldn't launch either, and threw up an error about damaged or missing components. What did the error message say exactly? This sounds like a different issue, related to moving the engine into the MC IDE. Yes, there are several different password protected stacks involved. Some are embedded in the standalone, others reside outside the standalone. The standalone launches these stacks or gets data from them during launch. If it cannot access these stacks, then no, the project wouldn't launch. I remember that I couldn't find the Passkey button to edit the scripts, and I figured it just got moved someplace else in Rev. That frustrated, too :-) Opening password protected stacks should work fine, it's Rev's search feature that can't always work with protected stacks, and a few other things will fail too (though I can't recall what they are right now, I never protect my stacks in the IDE.) To set a password, look in the standalone settings in the Stacks pane, at the bottom right. Tick the checkbox Encrypt with password and type in the password you want to use. It will be applied to whatever stack is selected in the list directly above. You need to repeat for each stack in the list you want to protect. Does the Rev standalone builder allow you to set different passwords for different stacks which are embedded? What about stacks that are not embedded? Relegated to the message box? Each stack can have its own password. I always set passwords on non-embedded stacks via message box, same as in MC. I had taken all of them out, everything but my own created embeds. Saved and quit. Relaunched. And it wouldn't even launch. Maybe at that point it was the password issue. Doubtful, protected stacks should function normally except that copy commands will throw an error and exit. But there is something else going on, the challenge is to find out what. If it were my stack, I'd set a breakpoint as early in the script as possible (preOpenStack or openStack) and step through line by line until I could see what is erroring. Won't launch isn't enough info; does the stack open at all? Or does it open and then do the auto-quit you mentioned? Or maybe the main stack launches, auto-hides as planned, and then the substack doesn't open? Do you get any error messages, and if so, what are they? If MC is doing the same thing, it is at least consistent. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ metacard mailing list metacard@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
My update is finished and ready to be turned into a standalone. I have ALWAYS used Metacard for this. But my version of Metacard didn't have Macintel options, so I downloaded v.2.8.1 and decided to try something different: creating the standalone in Revolution rather than Metacard. Call it the hassle factor avoidance, of turning 2.8.1 Rev into 2.8.1 Metacard. I figured this was the perfect time to really dig into Revolution, as I knew there were things it had that the Metacard GUI was lacking, that I wanted. So First thing I notice is... I must open the stack to create the standalone. Eeeech. The last thing I do before turning into a standalone is run a series of resettings then quit. Revolution requires the stack to be open, which resets all the settings. Okay, I can get around this. Not a critical issue. The next thing I notice is that I can't get around this, because Revolution doesn't like that I have embedded Ask/Answer stacks already, as well as File Selector and the whole shebang of embedded stacks for a standalone. They have just always resided in the stack. But it won't let me run any code that uses them. It doesn't even offer the option. It growls out error after error. Okay, so I'll take them out and reinstall them on Standalone Build, right? But the application stack doesn't stay open on launch. It's just a Hello window, and launches an embedded stack. So I'm in the embedded stack, is Rev going to install any standalone needs into it rather than the mainstack? I dunno. I don't want to find out by experimenting. I try finding a comprehensive tutorial on creating standalones in Revolution, nothing. I tried every search option available except Google. Nothing. Far as I can tell, the help docs don't offer up anything, and the search functions miss the wonderful tutorial I know that Jacqueline wrote. I could find it without Rev's help, I've got it bookmarked I'm sure, but (snotty attitude) hey, part of what I wanted from Rev was to be able to find answers for me from within the app. This was supposed to be a feature. As Seven would say: It failed. I quit out of the stack to ponder this further. I get a ton of errors, because I have stacks embedded that it doesn't like. I've been creating standalones for years, this shouldn't be hard! I was pretty gung ho on giving the Revolution GUI a real chance. I was excited. I'd be gaining things. I was actually considering a complete move from the Metacard GUI to the Rev GUI... But.. Metacard is looking happier and happier. I'm not ready to give up, changes mean bumps, so I have an epiphany. Launch it, remove the stacks, and surely it will let me put them back in during the app build.. I can't find anywhere in the stack preferences window to allow me to custom install chosen stacks. I never got to the actual standalone window. But I figure this will sort itself out somehow. Right now, the goal is to just be able to launch the stack without triggering errors, and set the standalone building preferences. But this fails. Revolution did something to the stack on the first launch, so now that stack won't even launch. It is broken. I go back to an earlier save. Launch, remove embedded stacks, quit. But this doesn't appease Revolution. It doesn't like my stack. It breaks it. Once I launch it, it will launch the first time, but no matter what changes I make inside of it, once I quit, I cannot relaunch it. It attempts a launch then quits. The earlier save yet again.. I try to find the script it is triggering (and shouldn't be) thru the nifty Search All Embedded Stacks, but the script isn't found. The script in question automatically quits if the main stack isn't loaded. The main stack should absolutely be loaded. So Revolution changed something, and now the external stack doesn't recognize the main stack. (There are both embedded stacks and external ones.) Then my mouse breaks. Or Revolution freezes. I don't know which. I replace the batteries in my mouse. Nada. No cursor movement. I try replacing them again with non-rechargeables. Still nada. I'm getting the snotty feeling that it's a Revolution freeze. I finally resort to a wired mouse and I am miserable. It wasn't Revolution, my mouse batteries went poof. (Or maybe it stomped on them, too?) I poke around a few more times, trying to appease Revolution. All I wanted to do was create a standalone from an existing, happy stack. But Revolution is like an ogre, stomping all over the place huffing and puffing, and it hates me. Now I give up. This is ridiculous. This shouldn't be so hard. Geez, I've done this a million times. Half the day is gone and I've accomplished nothing. So now it's back to turning Revolution into Metacard, so me and my stacks can float happily along again. To all of you who maintain the incredible INCREDIBLE Metacard GUI,
Re: The Aborted Plunge (Metacard to Revolution)
Shari wrote: First thing I notice is... I must open the stack to create the standalone. Eeeech. The last thing I do before turning into a standalone is run a series of resettings then quit. Revolution requires the stack to be open, which resets all the settings. Do all your custom setup, save the stack, but don't quit. Then build. That should do it. Many of us have a script we run just before building that sets everything up. The next thing I notice is that I can't get around this, because Revolution doesn't like that I have embedded Ask/Answer stacks already, as well as File Selector and the whole shebang of embedded stacks for a standalone. They have just always resided in the stack. But it won't let me run any code that uses them. It doesn't even offer the option. It growls out error after error. Okay, so I'll take them out and reinstall them on Standalone Build, right? Remove the ask, answer, and other IDE stacks, but leave any that you've custom created for your standalone. Then go to Standalone settings in the File menu and make sure that the ask, answer, and any other IDE libraries or stacks you need are checked. They will be included in your standalone when it is built. I no longer embed any IDE stacks in my work, Rev can't tell the difference between its own and the ones in your stack. Best to just omit them. I used to resent this too, but now I think it is a better way to do it. Whenever bug fixes are made to ask/answer, you know the latest version is always included in your stack when you let the SB do it. Browse through the panes of the standalone settings and make sure all the info is correct for each platform you will build. Once saved, you will never have to enter any of this info again. Do the standalone settings stuff before you do your custom setup stuff, then save the stack immediately before building. (If you don't, the SB will ask you to save before it continues. Generally you should say yes.) But the application stack doesn't stay open on launch. It's just a Hello window, and launches an embedded stack. So I'm in the embedded stack, is Rev going to install any standalone needs into it rather than the mainstack? I dunno. I don't want to find out by experimenting. The stack that will be the engine is listed in standalone settings. By default, it should be the mainstack. But what I'd do in the multi-line message box is: lock messages toplevel myMainStack Then open standalone settings if necessary, or just build. I try finding a comprehensive tutorial on creating standalones in Revolution, nothing. I tried every search option available except Google. Nothing. Far as I can tell, the help docs don't offer up anything, and the search functions miss the wonderful tutorial I know that Jacqueline wrote. Funny, I don't even remember that. ;) Isn't the info you need in the User Guide that ships with the documentation? I'm not able to double-check right now, but I thought it was. I quit out of the stack to ponder this further. I get a ton of errors, because I have stacks embedded that it doesn't like. You'll need to decide whether you will be building in Rev or not. If so, ditch the IDE stacks. I've been creating standalones for years, this shouldn't be hard! It isn't hard, it's just not what you are used to. Just set up standalone settings, then build. You can't use MC methods though; Rev's SB builder is based on different principles. I'm not ready to give up, changes mean bumps, so I have an epiphany. Launch it, remove the stacks, and surely it will let me put them back in during the app build.. I can't find anywhere in the stack preferences window to allow me to custom install chosen stacks. Not preferences; Standalone Settings in the File menu. First pane, under General. But this fails. Revolution did something to the stack on the first launch, so now that stack won't even launch. It is broken. Rev doesn't change anything in your stack or your scripts, so I'm not sure how that could happen. The SB doesn't touch your stack at all, except to add a few custom properties that are harmless. Maybe it's those IDE embedded stacks causing trouble? Best to remove the ask/answer and file selector stacks in MC before the stack ever even sees Rev. If you have two stacks with the same name, the engine can't tell which one you are refering to. Some of the errors may be due to this confusion. Rev tries hard to avoid the problem, and it is mostly old MC stacks that are an issue. Rev users generally don't embed any IDE stacks, and Rev doesn't even provide a GUI to do it. I go back to an earlier save. Launch, remove embedded stacks, quit. But this doesn't appease Revolution. It doesn't like my stack. It breaks it. Once I launch it, it will launch the first time, but no matter what changes I make inside of it, once I quit, I cannot relaunch it. It attempts a launch then quits.
