Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Toby Negrin]

Hi Dan -- did you get a chance to write up your findings?

thanks,

-Toby

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Tomasz Finc  wrote:

> I'll be eager to see you guys write up your findings after the spikes are
> over.
>
> thanks for moving that forward.
>
> --tomasz
>
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:05 AM, Gautam Chandna  wrote:
> > OEMs care about the size of their OS, as this is stored in a restricted
> > read-only area (unless a device is rooted). Once the device is running,
> > those limitations don't apply as an app has tons of space to update
> itself.
> >
> > Quite like the network installer concept for desktop applications, OEMs
> > prefer if the pre-install is a small package that in itself doesn't
> > necessarily do much other than download the real app.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Yuri Astrakhan <
> yastrak...@wikimedia.org>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Don't preload apps still get over-the-air updates, often the whole app
> >> re-download?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Carolynne Schloeder
> >>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi, yes app size and yes optimization :-)
> >>>
> >>> App size does matter
> >>> OEM's are sensitive to the size of the app for preload. They were
> >>> satisfied with our last version that was under 3MB; we'll find out
> what they
> >>> will tolerate. And we will likely push appstore promotion as part of
> our
> >>> deep dive.[1]
> >>>
> >>> Couple of thoughts on optimization:
> >>> Yuri already worked to compress images on mobile web, only deployed on
> >>> zero partners so far. Rolling out the image compression could be an
> easy
> >>> start to reduce the page load.
> >>>
> >>> In a couple of weeks, we will get into Facebook/Ericsson's network
> >>> simulation lab in Menlo Park, where we can experience our UX on low end
> >>> devices and slow networks.
> >>>
> >>> Dan and Maryana, can you help me organize who should go to the lab?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks --
> >>>
> >>> Carolynne
> >>>
> >>> [1] The Wikipedia Zero team is getting together with product, UX, comms
> >>> and GLEE to go deep in one country, to understand the context for
> Wikipedia
> >>> usage and how we can unlock growth in underserved market segments -
> beyond
> >>> just making data free. More info in our QR notes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Dan Garry 
> wrote:
> 
>  On 1 February 2015 at 14:48, Toby Negrin 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dan -- can you please limit the scope to sizing the android app? I
> > think that's more relevant to reaching people in the developing
> world.
> 
> 
>  I think that depends. In a world where we're focussing on preloads,
> the
>  size of the app is pretty immaterial as the user isn't paying the
> cost for
>  downloading it. In that world, the best optimisations to make are
> probably
>  reducing network traffic and improving performance on slower devices,
> things
>  where there's lot of room for improvement in our code base. Also, our
>  Android app is also an order of magnitude smaller than Facebook's
> Android
>  app, so that's less of an issue for us. Facebook evidently decided to
> TACKLE
>  ALL THE THINGS with Facebook Lite.
> 
> > Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3? Google has
> > it at about 10% globally but we need to understand our target market
> better.
> > You might also want to check in with your new contact at App Annie
> to see if
> > they have useful GS data.
> 
> 
>  Absolutely.
> 
>  Dan
> 
>  --
>  Dan Garry
>  Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
>  Wikimedia Foundation
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Carolynne Schloeder
> >>> Director Global Mobile Partnerships
> >>> Wikimedia Foundation
> >>> +14154077071
> >>> skype: cschloeder
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Mobile-l mailing list
> >>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Mobile-l mailing list
> >> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gautam Chandna | Director - Technical Partner Management |
> gaut...@opera.com
> > | +47-4567-1789
> >
> > ___
> > Mobile-l mailing list
> > Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
> >
>
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Tomasz Finc]

I'll be eager to see you guys write up your findings after the spikes are over.

thanks for moving that forward.

--tomasz

On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:05 AM, Gautam Chandna  wrote:
> OEMs care about the size of their OS, as this is stored in a restricted
> read-only area (unless a device is rooted). Once the device is running,
> those limitations don't apply as an app has tons of space to update itself.
>
> Quite like the network installer concept for desktop applications, OEMs
> prefer if the pre-install is a small package that in itself doesn't
> necessarily do much other than download the real app.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Yuri Astrakhan 
> wrote:
>>
>> Don't preload apps still get over-the-air updates, often the whole app
>> re-download?
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Carolynne Schloeder
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, yes app size and yes optimization :-)
>>>
>>> App size does matter
>>> OEM's are sensitive to the size of the app for preload. They were
>>> satisfied with our last version that was under 3MB; we'll find out what they
>>> will tolerate. And we will likely push appstore promotion as part of our
>>> deep dive.[1]
>>>
>>> Couple of thoughts on optimization:
>>> Yuri already worked to compress images on mobile web, only deployed on
>>> zero partners so far. Rolling out the image compression could be an easy
>>> start to reduce the page load.
>>>
>>> In a couple of weeks, we will get into Facebook/Ericsson's network
>>> simulation lab in Menlo Park, where we can experience our UX on low end
>>> devices and slow networks.
>>>
>>> Dan and Maryana, can you help me organize who should go to the lab?
>>>
>>> Thanks --
>>>
>>> Carolynne
>>>
>>> [1] The Wikipedia Zero team is getting together with product, UX, comms
>>> and GLEE to go deep in one country, to understand the context for Wikipedia
>>> usage and how we can unlock growth in underserved market segments - beyond
>>> just making data free. More info in our QR notes.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Dan Garry  wrote:

 On 1 February 2015 at 14:48, Toby Negrin  wrote:
>
> Dan -- can you please limit the scope to sizing the android app? I
> think that's more relevant to reaching people in the developing world.


 I think that depends. In a world where we're focussing on preloads, the
 size of the app is pretty immaterial as the user isn't paying the cost for
 downloading it. In that world, the best optimisations to make are probably
 reducing network traffic and improving performance on slower devices, 
 things
 where there's lot of room for improvement in our code base. Also, our
 Android app is also an order of magnitude smaller than Facebook's Android
 app, so that's less of an issue for us. Facebook evidently decided to 
 TACKLE
 ALL THE THINGS with Facebook Lite.

> Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3? Google has
> it at about 10% globally but we need to understand our target market 
> better.
> You might also want to check in with your new contact at App Annie to see 
> if
> they have useful GS data.


 Absolutely.

 Dan

 --
 Dan Garry
 Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
 Wikimedia Foundation
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Carolynne Schloeder
>>> Director Global Mobile Partnerships
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>> +14154077071
>>> skype: cschloeder
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Mobile-l mailing list
>>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Mobile-l mailing list
>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Gautam Chandna | Director - Technical Partner Management | gaut...@opera.com
> | +47-4567-1789
>
> ___
> Mobile-l mailing list
> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>

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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Gautam Chandna]

OEMs care about the size of their OS, as this is stored in a restricted
read-only area (unless a device is rooted). Once the device is running,
those limitations don't apply as an app has tons of space to update itself.

Quite like the network installer concept for desktop applications, OEMs
prefer if the pre-install is a small package that in itself doesn't
necessarily do much other than download the real app.



On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Yuri Astrakhan 
wrote:

> Don't preload apps still get over-the-air updates, often the whole app
> re-download?
>
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Carolynne Schloeder <
> cschloe...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi, yes app size and yes optimization :-)
>>
>> App size does matter
>> OEM's are sensitive to the size of the app for preload. They were
>> satisfied with our last version that was under 3MB; we'll find out what
>> they will tolerate. And we will likely push appstore promotion as part of
>> our deep dive.[1]
>>
>> Couple of thoughts on optimization:
>> Yuri already worked to compress images on mobile web, only deployed on
>> zero partners so far. Rolling out the image compression could be an easy
>> start to reduce the page load.
>>
>> In a couple of weeks, we will get into Facebook/Ericsson's network
>> simulation lab in Menlo Park, where we can experience our UX on low end
>> devices and slow networks.
>>
>> Dan and Maryana, can you help me organize who should go to the lab?
>>
>> Thanks --
>>
>> Carolynne
>>
>> [1] The Wikipedia Zero team is getting together with product, UX, comms
>> and GLEE to go deep in one country, to understand the context for Wikipedia
>> usage and how we can unlock growth in underserved market segments - beyond
>> just making data free. More info in our QR notes
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Dan Garry  wrote:
>>
>>> On 1 February 2015 at 14:48, Toby Negrin  wrote:
>>>
 Dan -- can you please limit the scope to sizing the android app? I
 think that's more relevant to reaching people in the developing world.

>>>
>>> I think that depends. In a world where we're focussing on preloads, the
>>> size of the app is pretty immaterial as the user isn't paying the cost for
>>> downloading it. In that world, the best optimisations to make are probably
>>> reducing network traffic and improving performance on slower devices,
>>> things where there's lot of room for improvement in our code base. Also,
>>> our Android app is also an order of magnitude smaller than Facebook's
>>> Android app, so that's less of an issue for us. Facebook evidently decided
>>> to TACKLE ALL THE THINGS with Facebook Lite.
>>>
>>> Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3? Google has it
 at about 10% globally but we need to understand our target market better.
 You might also want to check in with your new contact at App Annie to see
 if they have useful GS data.

>>>
>>> Absolutely.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan Garry
>>> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carolynne Schloeder
>> Director Global Mobile Partnerships
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> +14154077071
>> skype: cschloeder
>>
>> ___
>> Mobile-l mailing list
>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Mobile-l mailing list
> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>
>


-- 
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| +47-4567-1789
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Lila Tretikov]

sizing == development cost (in man hours)

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Dan Garry  wrote:

> I've scheduled 30 minutes on Wednesday for myself and the tech leads
> (Adam, Dmitry) to scope out a Wikipedia Lite app.
>
> Dan
>
> On 2 February 2015 at 13:59, Dan Garry  wrote:
>
>> On 1 February 2015 at 14:48, Toby Negrin  wrote:
>>
>>> Dan -- can you please limit the scope to sizing the android app? I think
>>> that's more relevant to reaching people in the developing world.
>>>
>>
>> I think that depends. In a world where we're focussing on preloads, the
>> size of the app is pretty immaterial as the user isn't paying the cost for
>> downloading it. In that world, the best optimisations to make are probably
>> reducing network traffic and improving performance on slower devices,
>> things where there's lot of room for improvement in our code base. Also,
>> our Android app is also an order of magnitude smaller than Facebook's
>> Android app, so that's less of an issue for us. Facebook evidently decided
>> to TACKLE ALL THE THINGS with Facebook Lite.
>>
>> Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3? Google has it
>>> at about 10% globally but we need to understand our target market better.
>>> You might also want to check in with your new contact at App Annie to see
>>> if they have useful GS data.
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> --
>> Dan Garry
>> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Dan Garry]

I've scheduled 30 minutes on Wednesday for myself and the tech leads (Adam,
Dmitry) to scope out a Wikipedia Lite app.

Dan

On 2 February 2015 at 13:59, Dan Garry  wrote:

> On 1 February 2015 at 14:48, Toby Negrin  wrote:
>
>> Dan -- can you please limit the scope to sizing the android app? I think
>> that's more relevant to reaching people in the developing world.
>>
>
> I think that depends. In a world where we're focussing on preloads, the
> size of the app is pretty immaterial as the user isn't paying the cost for
> downloading it. In that world, the best optimisations to make are probably
> reducing network traffic and improving performance on slower devices,
> things where there's lot of room for improvement in our code base. Also,
> our Android app is also an order of magnitude smaller than Facebook's
> Android app, so that's less of an issue for us. Facebook evidently decided
> to TACKLE ALL THE THINGS with Facebook Lite.
>
> Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3? Google has it
>> at about 10% globally but we need to understand our target market better.
>> You might also want to check in with your new contact at App Annie to see
>> if they have useful GS data.
>>
>
> Absolutely.
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
> Wikimedia Foundation
>



-- 
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Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Dan Garry]

On 2 February 2015 at 15:39, Carolynne Schloeder 
wrote:

> Hi, yes app size and yes optimization :-)
>
> App size does matter
> OEM's are sensitive to the size of the app for preload. They were
> satisfied with our last version that was under 3MB; we'll find out what
> they will tolerate. And we will likely push appstore promotion as part of
> our deep dive.[1]
>

Much of the size of the app is the various different images and icons that
we need to include for different form factors. If we were making a version
optimised for lower resolution screens (i.e. Wikipedia Lite!) we could
likely drop a lot of these higher resolution icons and drop the size of the
app substantially.


> Couple of thoughts on optimization:
> Yuri already worked to compress images on mobile web, only deployed on
> zero partners so far. Rolling out the image compression could be an easy
> start to reduce the page load.
>

Any compression by definition comes with a tradeoff somewhere else, such as
reduced image quality or increased processing time for uncompression. If
we're talking about compression across the board, then we should be very
deliberate about that, especially since it may affect all of our API
consumers and degrade the quality of the image experience.


> In a couple of weeks, we will get into Facebook/Ericsson's network
> simulation lab in Menlo Park, where we can experience our UX on low end
> devices and slow networks.
>
> Dan and Maryana, can you help me organize who should go to the lab?
>

For Mobile Apps, I nominate Adam Baso. He's experienced with both the iOS
and Android SDKs, so anything he learns about best practices for slow/lossy
network connections he can relay to either the iOS or the Android teams.
Plus he has tons of experience with Zero-related matters.

I'd also like to go if possible, but prioritise Adam over me.

Thanks,
Dan

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Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Don't preload apps still get over-the-air updates, often the whole app
re-download?

On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Carolynne Schloeder <
cschloe...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Hi, yes app size and yes optimization :-)
>
> App size does matter
> OEM's are sensitive to the size of the app for preload. They were
> satisfied with our last version that was under 3MB; we'll find out what
> they will tolerate. And we will likely push appstore promotion as part of
> our deep dive.[1]
>
> Couple of thoughts on optimization:
> Yuri already worked to compress images on mobile web, only deployed on
> zero partners so far. Rolling out the image compression could be an easy
> start to reduce the page load.
>
> In a couple of weeks, we will get into Facebook/Ericsson's network
> simulation lab in Menlo Park, where we can experience our UX on low end
> devices and slow networks.
>
> Dan and Maryana, can you help me organize who should go to the lab?
>
> Thanks --
>
> Carolynne
>
> [1] The Wikipedia Zero team is getting together with product, UX, comms
> and GLEE to go deep in one country, to understand the context for Wikipedia
> usage and how we can unlock growth in underserved market segments - beyond
> just making data free. More info in our QR notes
> 
> .
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Dan Garry  wrote:
>
>> On 1 February 2015 at 14:48, Toby Negrin  wrote:
>>
>>> Dan -- can you please limit the scope to sizing the android app? I think
>>> that's more relevant to reaching people in the developing world.
>>>
>>
>> I think that depends. In a world where we're focussing on preloads, the
>> size of the app is pretty immaterial as the user isn't paying the cost for
>> downloading it. In that world, the best optimisations to make are probably
>> reducing network traffic and improving performance on slower devices,
>> things where there's lot of room for improvement in our code base. Also,
>> our Android app is also an order of magnitude smaller than Facebook's
>> Android app, so that's less of an issue for us. Facebook evidently decided
>> to TACKLE ALL THE THINGS with Facebook Lite.
>>
>> Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3? Google has it
>>> at about 10% globally but we need to understand our target market better.
>>> You might also want to check in with your new contact at App Annie to see
>>> if they have useful GS data.
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> --
>> Dan Garry
>> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Carolynne Schloeder
> Director Global Mobile Partnerships
> Wikimedia Foundation
> +14154077071
> skype: cschloeder
>
> ___
> Mobile-l mailing list
> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>
>
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Carolynne Schloeder]

Hi, yes app size and yes optimization :-)

App size does matter
OEM's are sensitive to the size of the app for preload. They were satisfied
with our last version that was under 3MB; we'll find out what they will
tolerate. And we will likely push appstore promotion as part of our deep
dive.[1]

Couple of thoughts on optimization:
Yuri already worked to compress images on mobile web, only deployed on zero
partners so far. Rolling out the image compression could be an easy start
to reduce the page load.

In a couple of weeks, we will get into Facebook/Ericsson's network
simulation lab in Menlo Park, where we can experience our UX on low end
devices and slow networks.

Dan and Maryana, can you help me organize who should go to the lab?

Thanks --

Carolynne

[1] The Wikipedia Zero team is getting together with product, UX, comms and
GLEE to go deep in one country, to understand the context for Wikipedia
usage and how we can unlock growth in underserved market segments - beyond
just making data free. More info in our QR notes

.


On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Dan Garry  wrote:

> On 1 February 2015 at 14:48, Toby Negrin  wrote:
>
>> Dan -- can you please limit the scope to sizing the android app? I think
>> that's more relevant to reaching people in the developing world.
>>
>
> I think that depends. In a world where we're focussing on preloads, the
> size of the app is pretty immaterial as the user isn't paying the cost for
> downloading it. In that world, the best optimisations to make are probably
> reducing network traffic and improving performance on slower devices,
> things where there's lot of room for improvement in our code base. Also,
> our Android app is also an order of magnitude smaller than Facebook's
> Android app, so that's less of an issue for us. Facebook evidently decided
> to TACKLE ALL THE THINGS with Facebook Lite.
>
> Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3? Google has it
>> at about 10% globally but we need to understand our target market better.
>> You might also want to check in with your new contact at App Annie to see
>> if they have useful GS data.
>>
>
> Absolutely.
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
> Wikimedia Foundation
>



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Wikimedia Foundation
+14154077071
skype: cschloeder
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Dan Garry]

On 1 February 2015 at 14:48, Toby Negrin  wrote:

> Dan -- can you please limit the scope to sizing the android app? I think
> that's more relevant to reaching people in the developing world.
>

I think that depends. In a world where we're focussing on preloads, the
size of the app is pretty immaterial as the user isn't paying the cost for
downloading it. In that world, the best optimisations to make are probably
reducing network traffic and improving performance on slower devices,
things where there's lot of room for improvement in our code base. Also,
our Android app is also an order of magnitude smaller than Facebook's
Android app, so that's less of an issue for us. Facebook evidently decided
to TACKLE ALL THE THINGS with Facebook Lite.

Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3? Google has it at
> about 10% globally but we need to understand our target market better. You
> might also want to check in with your new contact at App Annie to see if
> they have useful GS data.
>

Absolutely.

Dan

-- 
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Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Nuria Ruiz]

>Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3?
I think it will be worth it to get this from actual usage of the app.
Google will report us downloads, but not activations and it is  not
infrequent that many users download an app that they do not use at all.
Specially if a mobile web version is available.

Thanks,

Nuria



On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Toby Negrin  wrote:

> Dan -- can you please limit the scope to sizing the android app? I think
> that's more relevant to reaching people in the developing world.
>
> Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3? Google has it
> at about 10% globally but we need to understand our target market better.
> You might also want to check in with your new contact at App Annie to see
> if they have useful GS data.
>
> -Toby
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Carolynne Schloeder <
> cschloe...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
>> Creating a separate app to optimize sounds like a good idea. We will
>> check the market stats on Android versions, and I'll get the scoop from
>> Facebook on their learning.
>>
>> I was somewhat surprised that most OEM's we've talked to are shipping
>> Android 4.x even on low-priced models targeted for developing markets. But
>> I'll clarify what's happening and circle back with Dan on the distribution
>> plan (preload vs. appstores). I'll also catch up with Kim.
>>
>> I do love to see this attention given to our lower end handset users,
>> thank you!
>>
>> Carolynne
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 9:30 AM, Lila Tretikov  wrote:
>>
>>> Dan,
>>>
>>> I think this is really important and thank you for highlighting this.
>>>
>>> Could you do rough sizing on what it would take to get something like
>>> this out? What if we did this with a pre-load?
>>>
>>> Carolynne -- I recommend you start reaching out to Kim as you
>>> re-formulate your W0 strategy.
>>>
>>> Lila
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Florian Schmidt <
>>> florian.schmidt.wel...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> +1 for this idea. I still have an Android 2.3 device, but the Wikipedia
>>>> app (and others too) is very slow and becomes more and more unusable, while
>>>> it's agreat user experience on my Android 4.4 device.
>>>>
>>>> If dropping 2.3 support means a faster development of the main
>>>> Wikipedia app and the <2.3 users still have access to Wikipedia through a
>>>> lite app (which will be faster and more usable) i would say: do it, it has
>>>> advantages for both sides :)
>>>>
>>>> Florian
>>>>
>>>> Gesendet mit meinem HTC
>>>>
>>>> - Reply message -
>>>> Von: "Dan Garry" 
>>>> An: "mobile-l" , "Carolynne Schloeder" <
>>>> cschloe...@wikimedia.org>, "Toby Negrin" ,
>>>> "Lila Tretikov" 
>>>> Betreff: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?
>>>> Datum: Sa., Jan. 31, 2015 06:45
>>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention
>>>> Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.
>>>>
>>>> Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for
>>>> users in developing world:
>>>>
>>>>- It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
>>>>- It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
>>>>- It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on
>>>>limited data plans.
>>>>
>>>> From a development perspective, some advantages are:
>>>>
>>>>- You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your
>>>>main app.
>>>>- You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older
>>>>devices so it's faster.
>>>>- You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing
>>>>market.
>>>>
>>>> So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this.
>>>> And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from
>>>> our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of
>>>> the edge cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required
>>>> quite a lot

Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Derk-Jan Hartman]

You can actually release a total different app under the same version based on 
device and OS criteria with Play Store.
http://developer.android.com/google/play/publishing/multiple-apks.html

So you could split the Android app into a full and a Lite version, and just 
serve up the Lite version to 2.3 and below devices automatically. 

Note that this creates significant overhead in the release process however. 
Store releases always are a expensive piece of overhead, making more of them or 
more complicated ones should not be underestimated (but is usually quite 
constant).

DJ


> On 1 feb. 2015, at 23:48, Toby Negrin  wrote:
> 
> Dan -- can you please limit the scope to sizing the android app? I think 
> that's more relevant to reaching people in the developing world.
> 
> Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3? Google has it at 
> about 10% globally but we need to understand our target market better. You 
> might also want to check in with your new contact at App Annie to see if they 
> have useful GS data.
> 
> -Toby
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Carolynne Schloeder 
> mailto:cschloe...@wikimedia.org>> wrote:
> Creating a separate app to optimize sounds like a good idea. We will check 
> the market stats on Android versions, and I'll get the scoop from Facebook on 
> their learning. 
> 
> I was somewhat surprised that most OEM's we've talked to are shipping Android 
> 4.x even on low-priced models targeted for developing markets. But I'll 
> clarify what's happening and circle back with Dan on the distribution plan 
> (preload vs. appstores). I'll also catch up with Kim. 
> 
> I do love to see this attention given to our lower end handset users, thank 
> you!
> 
> Carolynne
> 
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 9:30 AM, Lila Tretikov  <mailto:l...@wikimedia.org>> wrote:
> Dan,
> 
> I think this is really important and thank you for highlighting this. 
> 
> Could you do rough sizing on what it would take to get something like this 
> out? What if we did this with a pre-load?
> 
> Carolynne -- I recommend you start reaching out to Kim as you re-formulate 
> your W0 strategy. 
> 
> Lila
> 
> On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Florian Schmidt 
>  <mailto:florian.schmidt.wel...@t-online.de>> wrote:
> +1 for this idea. I still have an Android 2.3 device, but the Wikipedia app 
> (and others too) is very slow and becomes more and more unusable, while it's 
> agreat user experience on my Android 4.4 device.
> 
> If dropping 2.3 support means a faster development of the main Wikipedia app 
> and the <2.3 users still have access to Wikipedia through a lite app (which 
> will be faster and more usable) i would say: do it, it has advantages for 
> both sides :)
> 
> Florian
> 
> Gesendet mit meinem HTC
> 
> - Reply message -
> Von: "Dan Garry" mailto:dga...@wikimedia.org>>
> An: "mobile-l"  <mailto:mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>, "Carolynne Schloeder" 
> mailto:cschloe...@wikimedia.org>>, "Toby Negrin" 
> mailto:tneg...@wikimedia.org>>, "Lila Tretikov" 
> mailto:l...@wikimedia.org>>
> Betreff: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?
> Datum: Sa., Jan. 31, 2015 06:45
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention 
> Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.
> 
> Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for users in 
> developing world:
> It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
> It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
> It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on limited data 
> plans.
> From a development perspective, some advantages are:
> You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your main app.
> You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older devices so it's 
> faster.
> You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing market.
> So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this. And, 
> selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from our 
> current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of the edge 
> cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required quite a lot 
> of investigation and hacking to fix them up. Obviously we've not dropped 2.3 
> so far because it's a very strategically important part of our user base, 
> which I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!
> 
> I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd prefer to 
> 

Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Toby Negrin]

Dan -- can you please limit the scope to sizing the android app? I think
that's more relevant to reaching people in the developing world.

Also, can you see what percent of our GS traffic uses 2.3? Google has it at
about 10% globally but we need to understand our target market better. You
might also want to check in with your new contact at App Annie to see if
they have useful GS data.

-Toby



On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Carolynne Schloeder <
cschloe...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Creating a separate app to optimize sounds like a good idea. We will check
> the market stats on Android versions, and I'll get the scoop from Facebook
> on their learning.
>
> I was somewhat surprised that most OEM's we've talked to are shipping
> Android 4.x even on low-priced models targeted for developing markets. But
> I'll clarify what's happening and circle back with Dan on the distribution
> plan (preload vs. appstores). I'll also catch up with Kim.
>
> I do love to see this attention given to our lower end handset users,
> thank you!
>
> Carolynne
>
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 9:30 AM, Lila Tretikov  wrote:
>
>> Dan,
>>
>> I think this is really important and thank you for highlighting this.
>>
>> Could you do rough sizing on what it would take to get something like
>> this out? What if we did this with a pre-load?
>>
>> Carolynne -- I recommend you start reaching out to Kim as you
>> re-formulate your W0 strategy.
>>
>> Lila
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Florian Schmidt <
>> florian.schmidt.wel...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>
>>> +1 for this idea. I still have an Android 2.3 device, but the Wikipedia
>>> app (and others too) is very slow and becomes more and more unusable, while
>>> it's agreat user experience on my Android 4.4 device.
>>>
>>> If dropping 2.3 support means a faster development of the main Wikipedia
>>> app and the <2.3 users still have access to Wikipedia through a lite app
>>> (which will be faster and more usable) i would say: do it, it has
>>> advantages for both sides :)
>>>
>>> Florian
>>>
>>> Gesendet mit meinem HTC
>>>
>>> - Reply message -
>>> Von: "Dan Garry" 
>>> An: "mobile-l" , "Carolynne Schloeder" <
>>> cschloe...@wikimedia.org>, "Toby Negrin" , "Lila
>>> Tretikov" 
>>> Betreff: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?
>>> Datum: Sa., Jan. 31, 2015 06:45
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention
>>> Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.
>>>
>>> Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for
>>> users in developing world:
>>>
>>>- It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
>>>- It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
>>>- It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on
>>>limited data plans.
>>>
>>> From a development perspective, some advantages are:
>>>
>>>- You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your
>>>main app.
>>>- You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older
>>>devices so it's faster.
>>>- You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing
>>>market.
>>>
>>> So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this.
>>> And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from
>>> our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of
>>> the edge cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required
>>> quite a lot of investigation and hacking to fix them up. Obviously we've
>>> not dropped 2.3 so far because it's a very strategically important part of
>>> our user base, which I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!
>>>
>>> I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd prefer
>>> to have a Wikipedia Lite app for the developing world, rather than our
>>> current "one app to rule them all".
>>>
>>> Comments? Questions?
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan Garry
>>> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Carolynne Schloeder
> Director Global Mobile Partnerships
> Wikimedia Foundation
> +14154077071
> skype: cschloeder
>
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Dmitry Brant]

A definite +1 for the idea of having a separate "Lite" app where we focus
on optimizing for size and network usage for the developing world.

However, I'm afraid that having a Lite app would not automatically allow us
to drop support for Android 2.3 in the "main" app. I'll be the first to
attest to the number of headaches that supporting 2.3 has caused, but
unfortunately this is just a routine part of Android development.  Even if
we drop support for 2.3, we would still need to use the Support (AppCompat)
library which, for all its flaws, provides fairly great compatibility with
versions all the way down to 2.1, practically for free.

After all, the Facebook app (the "full" version) is still very much
available on Android 2.3, and provides an experience that's fully
consistent with the experience on my 4.4 device.

By the same token, there are plenty of 2.3 devices that are still quite
powerful even by today's standards, and surely deserve the experience of
the full Wikipedia app.

So then, I agree with all the other motivations for splitting off a Lite
app, but as much as it pains me to say this, dropping support for Android
2.3 shouldn't necessarily be one of them.

-Dmitry


On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Carolynne Schloeder <
cschloe...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Creating a separate app to optimize sounds like a good idea. We will check
> the market stats on Android versions, and I'll get the scoop from Facebook
> on their learning.
>
> I was somewhat surprised that most OEM's we've talked to are shipping
> Android 4.x even on low-priced models targeted for developing markets. But
> I'll clarify what's happening and circle back with Dan on the distribution
> plan (preload vs. appstores). I'll also catch up with Kim.
>
> I do love to see this attention given to our lower end handset users,
> thank you!
>
> Carolynne
>
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 9:30 AM, Lila Tretikov  wrote:
>
>> Dan,
>>
>> I think this is really important and thank you for highlighting this.
>>
>> Could you do rough sizing on what it would take to get something like
>> this out? What if we did this with a pre-load?
>>
>> Carolynne -- I recommend you start reaching out to Kim as you
>> re-formulate your W0 strategy.
>>
>> Lila
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Florian Schmidt <
>> florian.schmidt.wel...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>
>>> +1 for this idea. I still have an Android 2.3 device, but the Wikipedia
>>> app (and others too) is very slow and becomes more and more unusable, while
>>> it's agreat user experience on my Android 4.4 device.
>>>
>>> If dropping 2.3 support means a faster development of the main Wikipedia
>>> app and the <2.3 users still have access to Wikipedia through a lite app
>>> (which will be faster and more usable) i would say: do it, it has
>>> advantages for both sides :)
>>>
>>> Florian
>>>
>>> Gesendet mit meinem HTC
>>>
>>> - Reply message -
>>> Von: "Dan Garry" 
>>> An: "mobile-l" , "Carolynne Schloeder" <
>>> cschloe...@wikimedia.org>, "Toby Negrin" , "Lila
>>> Tretikov" 
>>> Betreff: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?
>>> Datum: Sa., Jan. 31, 2015 06:45
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention
>>> Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.
>>>
>>> Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for
>>> users in developing world:
>>>
>>>- It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
>>>- It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
>>>- It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on
>>>limited data plans.
>>>
>>> From a development perspective, some advantages are:
>>>
>>>- You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your
>>>main app.
>>>- You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older
>>>devices so it's faster.
>>>- You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing
>>>market.
>>>
>>> So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this.
>>> And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from
>>> our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of
>>> the edge 

Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Carolynne Schloeder]

Creating a separate app to optimize sounds like a good idea. We will check
the market stats on Android versions, and I'll get the scoop from Facebook
on their learning.

I was somewhat surprised that most OEM's we've talked to are shipping
Android 4.x even on low-priced models targeted for developing markets. But
I'll clarify what's happening and circle back with Dan on the distribution
plan (preload vs. appstores). I'll also catch up with Kim.

I do love to see this attention given to our lower end handset users, thank
you!

Carolynne

On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 9:30 AM, Lila Tretikov  wrote:

> Dan,
>
> I think this is really important and thank you for highlighting this.
>
> Could you do rough sizing on what it would take to get something like this
> out? What if we did this with a pre-load?
>
> Carolynne -- I recommend you start reaching out to Kim as you re-formulate
> your W0 strategy.
>
> Lila
>
> On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Florian Schmidt <
> florian.schmidt.wel...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
>> +1 for this idea. I still have an Android 2.3 device, but the Wikipedia
>> app (and others too) is very slow and becomes more and more unusable, while
>> it's agreat user experience on my Android 4.4 device.
>>
>> If dropping 2.3 support means a faster development of the main Wikipedia
>> app and the <2.3 users still have access to Wikipedia through a lite app
>> (which will be faster and more usable) i would say: do it, it has
>> advantages for both sides :)
>>
>> Florian
>>
>> Gesendet mit meinem HTC
>>
>> - Reply message -
>> Von: "Dan Garry" 
>> An: "mobile-l" , "Carolynne Schloeder" <
>> cschloe...@wikimedia.org>, "Toby Negrin" , "Lila
>> Tretikov" 
>> Betreff: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?
>> Datum: Sa., Jan. 31, 2015 06:45
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention
>> Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.
>>
>> Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for
>> users in developing world:
>>
>>- It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
>>- It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
>>- It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on
>>limited data plans.
>>
>> From a development perspective, some advantages are:
>>
>>- You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your
>>main app.
>>- You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older devices
>>so it's faster.
>>- You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing
>>market.
>>
>> So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this.
>> And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from
>> our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of
>> the edge cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required
>> quite a lot of investigation and hacking to fix them up. Obviously we've
>> not dropped 2.3 so far because it's a very strategically important part of
>> our user base, which I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!
>>
>> I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd prefer
>> to have a Wikipedia Lite app for the developing world, rather than our
>> current "one app to rule them all".
>>
>> Comments? Questions?
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> --
>> Dan Garry
>> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>
>
>


-- 
Carolynne Schloeder
Director Global Mobile Partnerships
Wikimedia Foundation
+14154077071
skype: cschloeder
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Lila Tretikov]

Dan,

I think this is really important and thank you for highlighting this.

Could you do rough sizing on what it would take to get something like this
out? What if we did this with a pre-load?

Carolynne -- I recommend you start reaching out to Kim as you re-formulate
your W0 strategy.

Lila

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Florian Schmidt <
florian.schmidt.wel...@t-online.de> wrote:

> +1 for this idea. I still have an Android 2.3 device, but the Wikipedia
> app (and others too) is very slow and becomes more and more unusable, while
> it's agreat user experience on my Android 4.4 device.
>
> If dropping 2.3 support means a faster development of the main Wikipedia
> app and the <2.3 users still have access to Wikipedia through a lite app
> (which will be faster and more usable) i would say: do it, it has
> advantages for both sides :)
>
> Florian
>
> Gesendet mit meinem HTC
>
> - Reply message -
> Von: "Dan Garry" 
> An: "mobile-l" , "Carolynne Schloeder" <
> cschloe...@wikimedia.org>, "Toby Negrin" , "Lila
> Tretikov" 
> Betreff: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?
> Datum: Sa., Jan. 31, 2015 06:45
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention
> Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.
>
> Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for users
> in developing world:
>
>- It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
>- It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
>- It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on
>limited data plans.
>
> From a development perspective, some advantages are:
>
>- You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your main
>app.
>- You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older devices
>so it's faster.
>- You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing market.
>
> So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this.
> And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from
> our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of
> the edge cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required
> quite a lot of investigation and hacking to fix them up. Obviously we've
> not dropped 2.3 so far because it's a very strategically important part of
> our user base, which I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!
>
> I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd prefer
> to have a Wikipedia Lite app for the developing world, rather than our
> current "one app to rule them all".
>
> Comments? Questions?
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Florian Schmidt]

+1 for this idea. I still have an Android 2.3 device, but the Wikipedia app 
(and others too) is very slow and becomes more and more unusable, while it's 
agreat user experience on my Android 4.4 device.

If dropping 2.3 support means a faster development of the main Wikipedia app 
and the <2.3 users still have access to Wikipedia through a lite app (which 
will be faster and more usable) i would say: do it, it has advantages for both 
sides :)

Florian

Gesendet mit meinem HTC

- Reply message -
Von: "Dan Garry" 
An: "mobile-l" , "Carolynne Schloeder" 
, "Toby Negrin" , "Lila 
Tretikov" 
Betreff: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?
Datum: Sa., Jan. 31, 2015 06:45

Hi everyone,
Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention Facebook 
Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.

Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for users in 
developing world:
It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.It supports down to Android 2.2, 
good for older devices.It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for 
people on limited data plans.
From a development perspective, some advantages are:
You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your main app.
You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older devices so it's 
faster.You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing market.So 
obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this. And, 
selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from our current 
app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of the edge cases 
with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required quite a lot of 
investigation and hacking to fix them up. Obviously we've not dropped 2.3 so 
far because it's a very strategically important part of our user base, which 
I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!

I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd prefer to 
have a Wikipedia Lite app for the developing world, rather than our current 
"one app to rule them all".

Comments? Questions?

Dan

-- 
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Wikimedia Foundation___
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Monte Hurd]

For sure. Always fun to think about optimising :) 


> On Jan 31, 2015, at 12:26 AM, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> 
> I also like the idea, but I think Android is a much better initial target, as 
> it is much more common in the low bandwidth market from what I gathered.
> 
>> On Jan 31, 2015 8:52 AM, "Brian Gerstle"  wrote:
>> Love the idea, and I agree with everything Monte said.  We might also need 
>> to drop some 3rd party libs to go super-ultra light, depending on their 
>> size.  Quick inspection shows the following:
>> 
>> AFNetworking: ~500 KB
>> hpple: 41 KB
>> We'll need to be careful adding too many other frameworks to the light 
>> version, but we can use a separate target for it which doesn't link to 3rd 
>> party code.
>> 
>> More importantly, we'll also need to thoroughly analyze CPU usage (primarily 
>> animations) and network efficiency—cache misses and extra round trips will 
>> kill the experience.
>> 
>> Excited to talk about this next quarter!
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:45 PM, Monte Hurd  wrote:
>>> (Oh, the splash images I'm talking about on the iOS app are only shown at 
>>> startup and only for the brief second it takes the app to load. The reason 
>>> they take up so much space is older versions of iOS made you include one 
>>> version for your image for each screen dimension and density - that is, one 
>>> sized for 3.5 inch phones, one for 3.5 retina, iPad & iPad retina, iPad 
>>> mini & retina etc...)
>>> 
 On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Monte Hurd  wrote:
 That sounds like it may be the way to go!
 
 For iOS:
 
 Probably no time for a lite version this quarter, but maybe the current 
 version could be made lighter?
 
 It could actually be a relatively simple thing to do. In fact, I just did 
 a quick experiment:
 
 Our current iOS app weighs in at 4.38 MB.
 
 By simply removing the splash images the app binary size drops to 2.37 MB.
 
 iOS 8 has some fancy new abilities to present non-images as splash 
 screens, so I say we do this for iOS 8, drop the splash images for older 
 devices, and pay very close attention to the change in binary size that 
 results from any external libraries we use.
 
 We can also migrate a couple more images used by the iOS app to glyphs in 
 our font - which is an easy process with the scripts I wrote a while back. 
 This will save a bit more space. We could also do a couple spikes to see 
 what other low-hanging fruit there is for trimming the binary size.
 
 I think we could get to under 2 MB without breaking a sweat, or even the 
 need for a separate version.
 
 
 
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Dan Garry  wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention 
> Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.
> 
> Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for 
> users in developing world:
> It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
> It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
> It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on limited 
> data plans.
> From a development perspective, some advantages are:
> You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your main app.
> You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older devices so 
> it's faster.
> You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing market.
> So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this. 
> And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from 
> our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of 
> the edge cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they 
> required quite a lot of investigation and hacking to fix them up. 
> Obviously we've not dropped 2.3 so far because it's a very strategically 
> important part of our user base, which I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!
> 
> I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd prefer 
> to have a Wikipedia Lite app for the developing world, rather than our 
> current "one app to rule them all".
> 
> Comments? Questions?
> 
> Dan
> 
> -- 
> Dan Garry
> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
> Wikimedia Foundation
> 
> ___
> Mobile-l mailing list
> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle
>> IRC: bgerstle
>> 
>> ___

Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Yuri Astrakhan]

I also like the idea, but I think Android is a much better initial target,
as it is much more common in the low bandwidth market from what I gathered.
On Jan 31, 2015 8:52 AM, "Brian Gerstle"  wrote:

> Love the idea, and I agree with everything Monte said.  We might also need
> to drop some 3rd party libs to go super-ultra light, depending on their
> size.  Quick inspection shows the following:
>
>
>- AFNetworking: ~500 KB
>- hpple: 41 KB
>
> We'll need to be careful adding too many other frameworks to the light
> version, but we can use a separate target for it which doesn't link to 3rd
> party code.
>
> More importantly, we'll also need to thoroughly analyze CPU usage
> (primarily animations) and network efficiency—cache misses and extra round
> trips will kill the experience.
>
> Excited to talk about this next quarter!
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:45 PM, Monte Hurd  wrote:
>
>> (Oh, the splash images I'm talking about on the iOS app are only shown at
>> startup and only for the brief second it takes the app to load. The reason
>> they take up so much space is older versions of iOS made you include one
>> version for your image for each screen dimension and density - that is, one
>> sized for 3.5 inch phones, one for 3.5 retina, iPad & iPad retina, iPad
>> mini & retina etc...)
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Monte Hurd  wrote:
>>
>>> That sounds like it may be the way to go!
>>>
>>> For iOS:
>>>
>>> Probably no time for a lite version this quarter, but maybe the current
>>> version could be made lighter?
>>>
>>> It could actually be a relatively simple thing to do. In fact, I just
>>> did a quick experiment:
>>>
>>> Our current iOS app weighs in at *4.38 MB*.
>>>
>>> By simply removing the splash images the app binary size drops to *2.37
>>> MB*.
>>>
>>> iOS 8 has some fancy new abilities to present non-images as splash
>>> screens, so I say we do this for iOS 8, drop the splash images for older
>>> devices, and pay very close attention to the change in binary size that
>>> results from any external libraries we use.
>>>
>>> We can also migrate a couple more images used by the iOS app to glyphs
>>> in our font - which is an easy process with the scripts I wrote a while
>>> back. This will save a bit more space. We could also do a couple spikes to
>>> see what other low-hanging fruit there is for trimming the binary size.
>>>
>>> I think we could get to under 2 MB without breaking a sweat, or even the
>>> need for a separate version.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Dan Garry  wrote:
>>>
 Hi everyone,

 Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention
 Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.

 Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for
 users in developing world:

- It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
- It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
- It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on
limited data plans.

 From a development perspective, some advantages are:

- You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your
main app.
- You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older
devices so it's faster.
- You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing
market.

 So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this.
 And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from
 our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of
 the edge cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required
 quite a lot of investigation and hacking to fix them up. Obviously we've
 not dropped 2.3 so far because it's a very strategically important part of
 our user base, which I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!

 I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd
 prefer to have a Wikipedia Lite app for the developing world, rather than
 our current "one app to rule them all".

 Comments? Questions?

 Dan

 --
 Dan Garry
 Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
 Wikimedia Foundation

 ___
 Mobile-l mailing list
 Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l


>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle
> IRC: bgerstle
>
> ___
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> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>
>

Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Brian Gerstle]

Love the idea, and I agree with everything Monte said.  We might also need
to drop some 3rd party libs to go super-ultra light, depending on their
size.  Quick inspection shows the following:


   - AFNetworking: ~500 KB
   - hpple: 41 KB

We'll need to be careful adding too many other frameworks to the light
version, but we can use a separate target for it which doesn't link to 3rd
party code.

More importantly, we'll also need to thoroughly analyze CPU usage
(primarily animations) and network efficiency—cache misses and extra round
trips will kill the experience.

Excited to talk about this next quarter!

Brian


On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:45 PM, Monte Hurd  wrote:

> (Oh, the splash images I'm talking about on the iOS app are only shown at
> startup and only for the brief second it takes the app to load. The reason
> they take up so much space is older versions of iOS made you include one
> version for your image for each screen dimension and density - that is, one
> sized for 3.5 inch phones, one for 3.5 retina, iPad & iPad retina, iPad
> mini & retina etc...)
>
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Monte Hurd  wrote:
>
>> That sounds like it may be the way to go!
>>
>> For iOS:
>>
>> Probably no time for a lite version this quarter, but maybe the current
>> version could be made lighter?
>>
>> It could actually be a relatively simple thing to do. In fact, I just did
>> a quick experiment:
>>
>> Our current iOS app weighs in at *4.38 MB*.
>>
>> By simply removing the splash images the app binary size drops to *2.37
>> MB*.
>>
>> iOS 8 has some fancy new abilities to present non-images as splash
>> screens, so I say we do this for iOS 8, drop the splash images for older
>> devices, and pay very close attention to the change in binary size that
>> results from any external libraries we use.
>>
>> We can also migrate a couple more images used by the iOS app to glyphs in
>> our font - which is an easy process with the scripts I wrote a while back.
>> This will save a bit more space. We could also do a couple spikes to see
>> what other low-hanging fruit there is for trimming the binary size.
>>
>> I think we could get to under 2 MB without breaking a sweat, or even the
>> need for a separate version.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Dan Garry  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention
>>> Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.
>>>
>>> Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for
>>> users in developing world:
>>>
>>>- It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
>>>- It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
>>>- It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on
>>>limited data plans.
>>>
>>> From a development perspective, some advantages are:
>>>
>>>- You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your
>>>main app.
>>>- You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older
>>>devices so it's faster.
>>>- You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing
>>>market.
>>>
>>> So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this.
>>> And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from
>>> our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of
>>> the edge cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required
>>> quite a lot of investigation and hacking to fix them up. Obviously we've
>>> not dropped 2.3 so far because it's a very strategically important part of
>>> our user base, which I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!
>>>
>>> I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd prefer
>>> to have a Wikipedia Lite app for the developing world, rather than our
>>> current "one app to rule them all".
>>>
>>> Comments? Questions?
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan Garry
>>> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Mobile-l mailing list
>>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> ___
> Mobile-l mailing list
> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>
>


-- 
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IRC: bgerstle
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Monte Hurd]

(Oh, the splash images I'm talking about on the iOS app are only shown at
startup and only for the brief second it takes the app to load. The reason
they take up so much space is older versions of iOS made you include one
version for your image for each screen dimension and density - that is, one
sized for 3.5 inch phones, one for 3.5 retina, iPad & iPad retina, iPad
mini & retina etc...)

On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Monte Hurd  wrote:

> That sounds like it may be the way to go!
>
> For iOS:
>
> Probably no time for a lite version this quarter, but maybe the current
> version could be made lighter?
>
> It could actually be a relatively simple thing to do. In fact, I just did
> a quick experiment:
>
> Our current iOS app weighs in at *4.38 MB*.
>
> By simply removing the splash images the app binary size drops to *2.37
> MB*.
>
> iOS 8 has some fancy new abilities to present non-images as splash
> screens, so I say we do this for iOS 8, drop the splash images for older
> devices, and pay very close attention to the change in binary size that
> results from any external libraries we use.
>
> We can also migrate a couple more images used by the iOS app to glyphs in
> our font - which is an easy process with the scripts I wrote a while back.
> This will save a bit more space. We could also do a couple spikes to see
> what other low-hanging fruit there is for trimming the binary size.
>
> I think we could get to under 2 MB without breaking a sweat, or even the
> need for a separate version.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Dan Garry  wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention
>> Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.
>>
>> Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for
>> users in developing world:
>>
>>- It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
>>- It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
>>- It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on
>>limited data plans.
>>
>> From a development perspective, some advantages are:
>>
>>- You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your
>>main app.
>>- You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older devices
>>so it's faster.
>>- You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing
>>market.
>>
>> So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this.
>> And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from
>> our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of
>> the edge cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required
>> quite a lot of investigation and hacking to fix them up. Obviously we've
>> not dropped 2.3 so far because it's a very strategically important part of
>> our user base, which I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!
>>
>> I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd prefer
>> to have a Wikipedia Lite app for the developing world, rather than our
>> current "one app to rule them all".
>>
>> Comments? Questions?
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> --
>> Dan Garry
>> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>
>> ___
>> Mobile-l mailing list
>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>>
>>
>
___
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Monte Hurd]

That sounds like it may be the way to go!

For iOS:

Probably no time for a lite version this quarter, but maybe the current
version could be made lighter?

It could actually be a relatively simple thing to do. In fact, I just did a
quick experiment:

Our current iOS app weighs in at *4.38 MB*.

By simply removing the splash images the app binary size drops to *2.37 MB*.

iOS 8 has some fancy new abilities to present non-images as splash screens,
so I say we do this for iOS 8, drop the splash images for older devices,
and pay very close attention to the change in binary size that results from
any external libraries we use.

We can also migrate a couple more images used by the iOS app to glyphs in
our font - which is an easy process with the scripts I wrote a while back.
This will save a bit more space. We could also do a couple spikes to see
what other low-hanging fruit there is for trimming the binary size.

I think we could get to under 2 MB without breaking a sweat, or even the
need for a separate version.



On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Dan Garry  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention
> Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.
>
> Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for users
> in developing world:
>
>- It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
>- It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
>- It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on
>limited data plans.
>
> From a development perspective, some advantages are:
>
>- You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your main
>app.
>- You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older devices
>so it's faster.
>- You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing market.
>
> So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this.
> And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from
> our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of
> the edge cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required
> quite a lot of investigation and hacking to fix them up. Obviously we've
> not dropped 2.3 so far because it's a very strategically important part of
> our user base, which I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!
>
> I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd prefer
> to have a Wikipedia Lite app for the developing world, rather than our
> current "one app to rule them all".
>
> Comments? Questions?
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> ___
> Mobile-l mailing list
> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>
>
___
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Re: [WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Pine W]

Hi Dan,

First, thanks for asking for input before making this decision.

Second, it would be good to get feedback directly from the 2.x users before
making a major change, although I am not knowledgable about how major this
change would be for the UX. Any ideas on how to get feedback at reasonable
scale? This might require some creative outreach to our low-bandwith and/or
non-English-speaking users, and I'm wondering if Fundraising, Legal, CA or
the Wikipedia Zero team have ideas.

Cheers,

Pine

On Jan 30, 2015 9:45 PM, "Dan Garry"  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention
> Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.
>
> Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for users
> in developing world:
>
>- It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
>- It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
>- It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on
>limited data plans.
>
> From a development perspective, some advantages are:
>
>- You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your main
>app.
>- You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older devices
>so it's faster.
>- You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing market.
>
> So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this.
> And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from
> our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of
> the edge cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required
> quite a lot of investigation and hacking to fix them up. Obviously we've
> not dropped 2.3 so far because it's a very strategically important part of
> our user base, which I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!
>
> I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd prefer
> to have a Wikipedia Lite app for the developing world, rather than our
> current "one app to rule them all".
>
> Comments? Questions?
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> ___
> Mobile-l mailing list
> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
>
>
___
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[WikimediaMobile] [Apps] Wikipedia Lite app?

[Dan Garry]

Hi everyone,

Those of you who were at the Mobile quarterly review heard me mention
Facebook Lite, an app that's designed especially for the developing world.

Notably, their app has a lot of optimisations which make it good for users
in developing world:

   - It's only 252kB, good for limited data plans.
   - It supports down to Android 2.2, good for older devices.
   - It's data-efficient, good for 2G connections and for people on limited
   data plans.

>From a development perspective, some advantages are:

   - You no longer have to support older versions of Android in your main
   app.
   - You can tailor the performance of the lite app to the older devices so
   it's faster.
   - You can tailor the features of the lite app to the developing market.

So obviously there are a lot of advantages for our users if we do this.
And, selfishly, I can't stress enough how much dropping Android 2.3 from
our current app would speed up development. As an example, almost all of
the edge cases with lead images occurred on 2.3 devices, and they required
quite a lot of investigation and hacking to fix them up. Obviously we've
not dropped 2.3 so far because it's a very strategically important part of
our user base, which I'm sure Carolynne can attest to!

I'd say that we should put some serious thought into whether we'd prefer to
have a Wikipedia Lite app for the developing world, rather than our current
"one app to rule them all".

Comments? Questions?

Dan

-- 
Dan Garry
Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
Wikimedia Foundation
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