Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/25/21 23:13, Randy Bush wrote:


https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru

used to get dissidents, activists, and journos killed

at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.


I guess Cambridge Analytica ain't just for the FaceMash...

Mark.

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/25/21 21:09, Warren Kumari wrote:



... and my "funny" story.

We used to live in San Jose. There was a large heat-wave, and much of 
SJC lost power because of A/C load, etc. Anyway, my wife and I go and 
camp in one of the office conference rooms for a few days because the 
office still has power and A/C.
Eventually PG claims that power is back on our street, so we drive 
back to San Jose and... no power. I flag down a passing PG truck and 
ask if they know when it will *really* be back. Lineman says that it 
is. I say it isn't. He says it is. I say it isn't.
He gets annoyed, opens up the pedestal box and sticks a meter in it, 
and agrees that I have no power. He then sticks the meter across the 
800A fuse, and discovers that the fuse blew.
"Ah. I can fix that fer you..." he says, and goes to the back of the 
truck... "Doh. I'm out of 800A fuses. Um er well, here is a 
6,000A fuse, that'll do..."


I briefly question the logic of this (presumably the lines in the 
ground are sized somewhere around 800-1,200A), but he says that 
this'll do, and he'll come back in the next few days to replace it. I 
lived there for another 8 or so months, and it was never replaced, 
but, well,... not my wires, so, um ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess...


You annoyed him enough to give you a larger fuse, and be done with you :-).

Obviously, a safety hazard all on its own.

Mark.

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/25/21 20:15, Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE wrote:


So the issue here is even a small 120vac current becomes a very fatal event at 
7.2 or 11 or 14.4kV.  It’s a safety issue for linepersons doing emergency 
restoration work.


Yep, because the home generator will be boosted up by the neighborhood 
transformer, in the back-feed direction.


Mark.

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/25/21 20:30, b...@theworld.com wrote:


Ok, I'll be the curmudgeon...

Is this really a problem in practice?


The issue is that "it can be".

Solar inverter OEM's have long argued that UL 1741 is too stringent 
because the assumption is that linesmen always check for voltage on the 
line before working on it.


Multiple layers of protection are the way to go here. Just as in our 
industry, just a route-map may not be enough. A route-map + prefix list 
is a better plan.


Mark.

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/25/21 19:25, Mel Beckman wrote:


Jay,

No, because transformers work in both directions :)

Plus, to the previous commenter that talked about “suicide cords”: 
they’’re more correctly termed “homicide  cords”:


“ The lineman killed yesterday was working for Pike Electric and 
picked up a line that was connected to someones house that hooked up a 
generator and did not disconnect from the distribution system. The 
linemans name was Ronnie Adams, age unknown. He had two children and a 
wife. As far as I know he was from Louisiana. They are trying to set 
up a fund for his family, but nothing I have heard of yet. I will let 
yall know more as I hear of it. I wish they would really teach folks 
the proper connection of generators, this was a really tragic and 
preventable accident. Stay Safe and think about it before you do it.”


https://powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?711-Storm-Death 



Oh dear. This is sad.

There are some people that say UL 1741 is draconian because, in general, 
linesmen ALWAYS check wires before they start working on them. Even if 
they did before and there was no voltage, it could easily happen after 
the fact :-(...


Mark.

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/25/21 19:21, Sabri Berisha wrote:


At my home, I use this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CONE4MG

The interlock kit is installed in such a way that either the main or
the generator circuit breaker is closed. If the main is on, you can't
switch to generator power, and vice versa (see the pictures on the
listing, mine is installed the exact same way).


Yes, I've seen these on some Youtube videos. Work great.

Mark.

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/25/21 19:10, Jay Hennigan wrote:



If you fail to isolate your generator from the incoming utility feed 
so that you're back-feeding the utility and the power is out for your 
neighborhood or the whole city, would not the load of trying to light 
up the whole town completely overwhelm your little generator to the 
point that it fails, stalls, or trips its own output breaker?


Long answered.

Mark.

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[Hank Nussbacher]

On 26/08/2021 00:13, Randy Bush wrote:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru

used to get dissidents, activists, and journos killed

at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.

randy



I'm confused.  Quoting from the article:
"In a recent research report on an Israeli spyware vendor called 
Candiru, Citizen Lab thanked Team Cymru.


Thanks to Team Cymru for providing access to their Pure Signal Recon 
product. Their tool’s ability to show Internet traffic telemetry from 
the past three months provided the breakthrough we needed to identify 
the initial victim from Candiru’s infrastructure," the report reads. 
Citizen Lab did not respond to multiple requests for comment."


So Team Cymru helped expose themselves as to getting dissidents, 
activists and journalists killed?


-Hank
Caveat: The views expressed above are solely my own and do not express 
the views or opinions of my employer

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mel Beckman]

Matt,

The practice you describe, called “parallel grounding”, was flawed and 
discontinued in the 1970s. It was replaced by equipotential grounding, which 
protects against accidental grid-delivered voltages, but still can’t protect 
against customer-delivered voltages.

https://www.leafelectricalsafety.com/blog/electrical-safety/equipotential-grounding-versus-parallel-grounding

 -mel beckman

On Aug 25, 2021, at 5:31 PM, Amir Herzberg  wrote:


In theory, Jay is correct, but assuming that theory will always work in 
practice is, in this case, how linemen end up dead. We're all well aware of 
never assuming theory = practice, but admittedly the stakes tend to be a little 
lower in our world.

right. my grandpa was a high-voltage/wattage engineer. He always said, `an 
engineer can make an error, but only once'.

Luckily, we can make many errors :)

--
Amir Herzberg

Comcast professor of Security Innovations, Computer Science and Engineering, 
University of Connecticut
Homepage: https://sites.google.com/site/amirherzberg/home
`Applied Introduction to Cryptography' textbook and lectures: 
https://sites.google.com/site/amirherzberg/applied-crypto-textbook




On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:55 PM Matt Erculiani 
mailto:merculi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
In theory, Jay is correct, but assuming that theory will always work in 
practice is, in this case, how linemen end up dead. We're all well aware of 
never assuming theory = practice, but admittedly the stakes tend to be a little 
lower in our world.

Ensuring that a generator physically cannot backfeed is just one layer of 
protection against the already very high risk of the job of a lineman. Then 
there is, of course, checking for the presence of voltage before starting work, 
but it's possible for a generator to start AFTER this check.

Another layer of protection is grounding all conductors prior to beginning 
work, so that if power does come back (via the grid or a backfeed) A: The 
lineman and bucket is not the best path to ground and B: The source is tripped.

Reading through that forum post, it sounds like that particular contractor had 
a reputation for lacking proper safety precautions, so one or more safety 
layers may have been removed, making the risk/impact of any single mistake much 
greater than it should be.

-Matt

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:25 AM Mel Beckman 
mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:
Jay,

No, because transformers work in both directions :)

Plus, to the previous commenter that talked about “suicide cords”: they’’re 
more correctly termed “homicide  cords”:

“ The lineman killed yesterday was working for Pike Electric and picked up a 
line that was connected to someones house that hooked up a generator and did 
not disconnect from the distribution system. The linemans name was Ronnie 
Adams, age unknown. He had two children and a wife. As far as I know he was 
from Louisiana. They are trying to set up a fund for his family, but nothing I 
have heard of yet. I will let yall know more as I hear of it. I wish they would 
really teach folks the proper connection of generators, this was a really 
tragic and preventable accident. Stay Safe and think about it before you do it.”

https://powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?711-Storm-Death

 -mel

On Aug 25, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Jay Hennigan 
mailto:j...@west.net>> wrote:

On 8/25/21 07:04, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 8/25/21 15:59, Ethan O'Toole wrote:

How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?
Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.

If you fail to isolate your generator from the incoming utility feed so that 
you're back-feeding the utility and the power is out for your neighborhood or 
the whole city, would not the load of trying to light up the whole town 
completely overwhelm your little generator to the point that it fails, stalls, 
or trips its own output breaker?

--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV


--
Matt Erculiani
ERCUL-ARIN

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[J. Hellenthal via NANOG]

Im finding this really hard to believe for the "Team Cymru" part at least. 
Being originally a provider of security centric configuration of network 
components... IOS ... Juniper etc... and maintaining such a high standard for 
years that they turn foot and resell/sell data on customer traffic obtained 
from other networks they themself are a customer of for resale of data. This 
feels like a hit job on a company that secures more than it insecures by gov't 
passage.

Not trying to start a flame war here but... what do you do to your most secure 
threat? (That has financial and influential aspects)... 


-- 

J. Hellenthal

The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.






> On Aug 25, 2021, at 16:13, Randy Bush  wrote:
> 
> https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru
> 
> used to get dissidents, activists, and journos killed
> 
> at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.
> 
> randy

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Amir Herzberg]

>
> In theory, Jay is correct, but assuming that theory will always work in
> practice is, in this case, how linemen end up dead. We're all well aware of
> never assuming theory = practice, but admittedly the stakes tend to be a
> little lower in our world.
>

right. my grandpa was a high-voltage/wattage engineer. He always said, `an
engineer can make an error, but only once'.

Luckily, we can make many errors :)

-- 
Amir Herzberg

Comcast professor of Security Innovations, Computer Science and
Engineering, University of Connecticut
Homepage: https://sites.google.com/site/amirherzberg/home
`Applied Introduction to Cryptography' textbook and lectures:
 https://sites.google.com/site/amirherzberg/applied-crypto-textbook





On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:55 PM Matt Erculiani  wrote:

> In theory, Jay is correct, but assuming that theory will always work in
> practice is, in this case, how linemen end up dead. We're all well aware of
> never assuming theory = practice, but admittedly the stakes tend to be a
> little lower in our world.
>
> Ensuring that a generator physically cannot backfeed is just one layer of
> protection against the already very high risk of the job of a lineman. Then
> there is, of course, checking for the presence of voltage before starting
> work, but it's possible for a generator to start AFTER this check.
>
> Another layer of protection is grounding all conductors prior to beginning
> work, so that if power does come back (via the grid or a backfeed) A: The
> lineman and bucket is not the best path to ground and B: The source is
> tripped.
>
> Reading through that forum post, it sounds like that particular contractor
> had a reputation for lacking proper safety precautions, so one or more
> safety layers may have been removed, making the risk/impact of any single
> mistake much greater than it should be.
>
> -Matt
>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:25 AM Mel Beckman  wrote:
>
>> Jay,
>>
>> No, because transformers work in both directions :)
>>
>> Plus, to the previous commenter that talked about “suicide cords”:
>> they’’re more correctly termed “homicide  cords”:
>>
>> “ The lineman killed yesterday was working for Pike Electric and picked
>> up a line that was connected to someones house that hooked up a generator
>> and did not disconnect from the distribution system. The linemans name was
>> Ronnie Adams, age unknown. He had two children and a wife. As far as I know
>> he was from Louisiana. They are trying to set up a fund for his family, but
>> nothing I have heard of yet. I will let yall know more as I hear of it. I
>> wish they would really teach folks the proper connection of generators,
>> this was a really tragic and preventable accident. Stay Safe and think
>> about it before you do it.”
>>
>> https://powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?711-Storm-Death
>>
>>  -mel
>>
>> On Aug 25, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Jay Hennigan  wrote:
>>
>> On 8/25/21 07:04, Mark Tinka wrote:
>>
>> On 8/25/21 15:59, Ethan O'Toole wrote:
>>
>>
>> How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?
>>
>> Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.
>>
>>
>> If you fail to isolate your generator from the incoming utility feed so
>> that you're back-feeding the utility and the power is out for your
>> neighborhood or the whole city, would not the load of trying to light up
>> the whole town completely overwhelm your little generator to the point that
>> it fails, stalls, or trips its own output breaker?
>>
>> --
>> Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
>> Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
>> 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
>>
>>
>
> --
> Matt Erculiani
> ERCUL-ARIN
>

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[scott]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 6:15 PM Randy Bush > wrote:


https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru

used to get dissidents, activists, and journos killed

at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.

-

After the SF room thing a decade ago (or whatever timeframe it was) we 
have to know AT is doing it.




On 8/25/21 11:01 PM, jim deleskie wrote:
:: I think letting any of those people think ToR is safe as being a 
much bigger risk.



Especially since ToR was developed by the US Navy to support spying 
operations.





:: ...Team Cymru...and believe them to be the good guys,



Agreed and I have thought so for a very long time, but sadly this casts 
a shadow over my interpretation of their work.  Hopefully, someone there 
clarifies and we can go on knowing they're one of the (few) good guys.



scott

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[Tom Beecher]

The NY Times did a story within the last couple years showing how easy it
was to identify an individual solely from purchasing anonymized data
commonly sold by advertisers and the like.

Now take that and be able to pin a person to an IP, and aggregate flow data
to find out everything someone does.

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 7:02 PM jim deleskie  wrote:

> Randy,
>
>   We all know many folks send their *flow to someone or somewhere.  In
> exchange for pretty graphs for intelligence.  I suspect in many cases this
> data is then reused in many cases for many purposes.  But let's not
> overplay the risk here.  There would be much easier ways for rogue nations,
> bad guys/good/in the middle nation to find out about dissidents, activists,
> and journos than flow data. I think letting any of those people think ToR
> is safe as being a much bigger risk.
>
> -jim
>
> Disclosures for those that don't know.  I've never worked with Team Cymru,
> I do know them fairly well and believe them to be the good guys, I do
> currently have a relationship with them, I do not currently work for a
> large SP that sends them data.  I have worked A LOT with flow data over the
> last 20 years, for large SPs, small vendors, and all things in between.
>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 6:15 PM Randy Bush  wrote:
>
>>
>> https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru
>>
>> used to get dissidents, activists, and journos killed
>>
>> at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.
>>
>> randy
>>
>

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[jim deleskie]

Randy,

  We all know many folks send their *flow to someone or somewhere.  In
exchange for pretty graphs for intelligence.  I suspect in many cases this
data is then reused in many cases for many purposes.  But let's not
overplay the risk here.  There would be much easier ways for rogue nations,
bad guys/good/in the middle nation to find out about dissidents, activists,
and journos than flow data. I think letting any of those people think ToR
is safe as being a much bigger risk.

-jim

Disclosures for those that don't know.  I've never worked with Team Cymru,
I do know them fairly well and believe them to be the good guys, I do
currently have a relationship with them, I do not currently work for a
large SP that sends them data.  I have worked A LOT with flow data over the
last 20 years, for large SPs, small vendors, and all things in between.

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 6:15 PM Randy Bush  wrote:

> https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru
>
> used to get dissidents, activists, and journos killed
>
> at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.
>
> randy
>

Re: Amazon Contact?

[L Sean Kennedy]

Any other ISPs that are having this issue with Amazon Prime Video, please
contact me for real time help off-list.  It does appear that several of the
reports also involve other streaming platforms, but at least for Amazon I
can get a ticket open to investigate.

There are probably some updates needed to the brotherswisp.com document and
I will reach out to Mike H separately about that, but those updates may not
happen in real time.

Thanks,
 Sean

Em qua., 25 de ago. de 2021 às 16:41, Stephen Fulton 
escreveu:

> I'll try and beat Mike to this:
>
>http://thebrotherswisp.com/index.php/geo-and-vpn/
>
> The above has contact info for a number of orgs to resolve geolocation &
> VPN problems, including Amazon.  Work in progress.
>
> -- Stephen
>
> On 2021-08-25 15:55, Chris Cappuccio wrote:
> > Looking to see if I can get someone at Amazon to help. Amazon Video is
> starting to think our CGN exit range is a VPN service (It isn't)
> >
> > Chris
> >
>

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[Stephen Fulton]

Randy,

It is quite possible that some are simply the victim of their own 
ignorance.  I know of an ISP where one of their last-mile hardware 
vendors was pushing hard to get junior technical staff and senior 
non-technical staff to agree to share netflow data.  When senior 
technical staff found out, they told the vendor that they would not 
share the data and to stop.  The vendor persisted.  After probing to 
find out what vendor was used in the core & peering parts of the ISP's 
network, one of the vendor's staff kindly provided netflow configuration 
to the junior technical staff, along with specific instructions to apply 
it to their transit/peering ports.  The destination of the flows was a 
server under the complete control of the vendor, not the ISP.  This was 
brought to the attention of senior technical staff and you can guess 
what happened.


The vendor is not one of the majors, they are still relatively young.  I 
won't share the name on the list.


-- Stephen







On 2021-08-25 17:13, Randy Bush wrote:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru

used to get dissidents, activists, and journos killed

at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.

randy

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Chris Boyd]

> On Aug 25, 2021, at 1:30 PM, b...@theworld.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Except maybe that one guy at Harvard who came to replace what turned
> out to be a 100+ year old, home made, "breaker" which fed our machine
> room which was hidden in a narrow dark hallway winding around our
> machine room behind an unmarked metal, locked doorway. I had no idea
> it existed but we had no power so I called for help.
> 
> It was just a single copper bar about the size of a small candy bar
> tensioned into hot clips. Probably 400A but who remembers.
> 
> He removed the old one confidently enough, grabbed the new one with
> rubber-handled pliers and gloves and...
> 
>  Him: Have you ever played football?
> 
>  Me: Actually, yes, I have, why?
> 
>  Him: If something doesn't look right when I put this thing in just
>  tackle me clear of it as hard and as fast as you can.
> 
>  Me: Um, ok.
> 
> It all worked out fine and I wrote a memo that maybe Harvard could
> spring for a proper $500 breaker box?
> 
> 

When I was working at the MCI training facility in 1994, I went into the power 
facility classroom where they had battery strings, rectifiers, transfer 
switches, etc for students to learn on. I noticed that every 8-10 feet there 
was an 8 foot long 3/4 inch PVC pipe with about 16 feet of rope threaded 
through it. When I asked what those were for, the instructor said “We will use 
those to pull people off the electricity in case anyone gets shocked.”

I never heard that they were used, so that’s good.

—Chris

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[Christopher Morrow]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 5:39 PM Aaron Wendel 
wrote:

> You don't know that I don't know that.
>
>
some probably do? you don't know which though?

I think, though, that part of the problem the article does not point out is:
  1) I run a network
  2) I need  (for reasons) netflow data and analysis
  3) I can't do that my self 
  4) several companies put hands up:
  "I can do that for you, costs $X/month and I have a nice dashboard!
with graphs!"

ok, so I bought that... and for another slice of product the company
providing ALSO
provides 'threat intelligence' or other things, based on my netflow and
yours and hers...

It's unclear to me that (if done properly) the data shown to me about
'threats' (or whatever):
  is not a conglomeration of all other customers of 
(FGP) netflow data...
  is not available to internal tools of FGP, and internal users at FGP.
  is not being made available from FGP to  for money OR for 'good'.

I don't think it's a surprise to anyone that netflow stitched together can
reveal a lot about
what's going on on your network, including: "who uses vpn service X?" or
"vpn user X is possibly browsing
 site Y" etc...

>
> On 8/25/2021 4:32 PM, Paul Ebersman wrote:
> > randy>
> https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru
> >
> > randy> at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.
> >
> >
> > aaron> You know they do.
> >
> > No, you don't know that.
> >
> > The above all certainly collect this info. Not all sell it to anyone who
> > asks.
>
>

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[Matt Harris]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 4:33 PM Paul Ebersman 
wrote:

> randy>
> https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru
>
> randy> at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.
>
>
> aaron> You know they do.
>
> No, you don't know that.
>
> The above all certainly collect this info. Not all sell it to anyone who
> asks.
>

Well, not just anyone who asks. But perhaps some of those who ask. You, for
example, as a random guy, might not have much luck. Various and sundry
other organizations, on the other hand, would likely have much better luck,
were they to pursue such a thing.

Matt Harris|Infrastructure Lead
816-256-5446|Direct
Looking for help?
Helpdesk|Email Support
We build customized end-to-end technology solutions powered by NetFire Cloud.

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[Aaron Wendel]

You don't know that I don't know that.


On 8/25/2021 4:32 PM, Paul Ebersman wrote:

randy> 
https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru

randy> at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.


aaron> You know they do.

No, you don't know that.

The above all certainly collect this info. Not all sell it to anyone who
asks.

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[Paul Ebersman]

randy> 
https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru

randy> at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.


aaron> You know they do.

No, you don't know that.

The above all certainly collect this info. Not all sell it to anyone who
asks.

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[Aaron Wendel]

You know they do.

On 8/25/2021 4:13 PM, Randy Bush wrote:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru

used to get dissidents, activists, and journos killed

at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.

randy

Re: netflow in the core used for surveillance

[Brandon Svec via NANOG]

I would go on the assumption they do (or allow others to), always have and
always will.  And if not this way, they will find other ways such as one
infamous example-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
*-Brandon*


On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 2:16 PM Randy Bush  wrote:

> https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru
>
> used to get dissidents, activists, and journos killed
>
> at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.
>
> randy
>

netflow in the core used for surveillance

[Randy Bush]

https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru

used to get dissidents, activists, and journos killed

at, comcast, ... zayo, please tell us you do not do this.

randy

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Haudy Kazemi via NANOG]

It's the specific combination of current and voltage that is hazardous.

Too much current, through/across the heart, is the main, potentially fatal,
hazard. This is why 120v GFCIs trip near 5 milliamps (mA). (20-30 mA in the
wrong place is too much.)

A voltage pushes a current through a resistance, be that insulation or skin
or soil.

A 12 volt car battery can produce several hundred amps current, enough to
weld, if the terminals are shorted together, but a 12 volt battery doesn't
have a high enough voltage to push that current through dry skin. It isn't
dangerous to touch a single battery with dry hands.

Static electricity can be thousands of volts, but at extremely low current.
We feel it as the voltage is high enough, but it isn't actually dangerous
(to people; electronic equipment is another matter).

Holding the current constant at the danger threshold (20 mA), we can also
look at the power levels for various voltages.

20mA at 120v = 2.4 watts. On the other side of the transformer, 20 mA at
7200v = 144 watts. Conclusion: a single small 150 watt inverter is powerful
enough to be create a hazard for linemen working on an islanded section of
7200v powerline.

There are several categories of electrical hazards, as delineated by
voltage. Under 50v is generally considered to not be a shock hazard. More
details on voltage categories:
https://eecoonline.com/determining-safe-distances-from-electrical-hazards/

More details on GFCIs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device



On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 13:16 Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE <
l...@6by7.net> wrote:

> So the issue here is even a small 120vac current becomes a very fatal
> event at 7.2 or 11 or 14.4kV.  It’s a safety issue for linepersons doing
> emergency restoration work.
>
>
>
> Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE
> 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC
> CEO
> l...@6by7.net
> "The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in
> the world.”
>
> FCC License KJ6FJJ
>
> Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.
>
> > On Aug 25, 2021, at 7:24 AM, Ethan O'Toole  wrote:
> >
> > 
> >>
> >>> How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?
> >> Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.
> >
> > If you hook 100KW of neighbors up to your 5KW/20% THD garden generator
> it would probably trip the breaker, or stall.
> >
> > I suppose it could be an issue if it was a single house on a branch
> where the break being serviced was just that branch (rural customers.)
> >
> > Was just curious why it wouldn't overload the generator trying to power
> all the neighbors houses if connected to the grid.
> >
> >- Ethan
> >
>

Re: Amazon Contact?

[Stephen Fulton]

I'll try and beat Mike to this:

  http://thebrotherswisp.com/index.php/geo-and-vpn/

The above has contact info for a number of orgs to resolve geolocation & 
VPN problems, including Amazon.  Work in progress.


-- Stephen

On 2021-08-25 15:55, Chris Cappuccio wrote:

Looking to see if I can get someone at Amazon to help. Amazon Video is starting 
to think our CGN exit range is a VPN service (It isn't)

Chris

Amazon Contact?

[Chris Cappuccio]

Looking to see if I can get someone at Amazon to help. Amazon Video is starting 
to think our CGN exit range is a VPN service (It isn't)

Chris

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Jay Hennigan]

On 8/25/21 12:03, Jay Nugent wrote:

Greetings,
     And in that moment before the circuit breaker on your generator 
trips, your 120/240 volts has been stepped up to 7200 through the "pole 
pig" transformer in your neighborhood, and has KILLED the lineman 
working to fix that 7200 feeder circuit.


    It only takes a MOMENT to stop someone's heart through electocution. 
It takes several milliseconds to pop a breaker.


And it would have only taken that lineman a few seconds to attach a 
grounding bond to the supposedly dead feeder and transformer before 
grabbing it bare-handed while speculating as to why it sounds like 
there's an engine running at constant RPM coming from the house 
connected to the service drop.


Serious accidents are often caused not by a single failure but several.

--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Warren Kumari]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 2:34 PM  wrote:

>
> Ok, I'll be the curmudgeon...
>
> Is this really a problem in practice?
>
> Most people I've known who worked around electrical mains etc assumed
> the worst at all times and it isn't all that difficult to protect
> against as one works.
>
> I realize one can infinitely invoke "better safe than sorry!", "an
> ounce of prevention...!"
>
> 


> Except maybe that one guy at Harvard who came to replace what turned
> out to be a 100+ year old, home made, "breaker" which fed our machine
> room which was hidden in a narrow dark hallway winding around our
> machine room behind an unmarked metal, locked doorway. I had no idea
> it existed but we had no power so I called for help.
>
> It was just a single copper bar about the size of a small candy bar
> tensioned into hot clips. Probably 400A but who remembers.
>
> He removed the old one confidently enough, grabbed the new one with
> rubber-handled pliers and gloves and...
>
>   Him: Have you ever played football?
>
>   Me: Actually, yes, I have, why?
>
>   Him: If something doesn't look right when I put this thing in just
>   tackle me clear of it as hard and as fast as you can.
>
>   Me: Um, ok.
>
> It all worked out fine and I wrote a memo that maybe Harvard could
> spring for a proper $500 breaker box?
>
> 
>
>
... and my "funny" story.

We used to live in San Jose. There was a large heat-wave, and much of SJC
lost power because of A/C load, etc. Anyway, my wife and I go and camp in
one of the office conference rooms for a few days because the office still
has power and A/C.
Eventually PG claims that power is back on our street, so we drive back
to San Jose and... no power. I flag down a passing PG truck and ask if
they know when it will *really* be back. Lineman says that it is. I say it
isn't. He says it is. I say it isn't.
He gets annoyed, opens up the pedestal box and sticks a meter in it, and
agrees that I have no power. He then sticks the meter across the 800A fuse,
and discovers that the fuse blew.
"Ah. I can fix that fer you..." he says, and goes to the back of the
truck... "Doh. I'm out of 800A fuses. Um er well, here is a 6,000A
fuse, that'll do..."

I briefly question the logic of this (presumably the lines in the ground
are sized somewhere around 800-1,200A), but he says that this'll do, and
he'll come back in the next few days to replace it. I lived there for
another 8 or so months, and it was never replaced, but, well,... not my
wires, so, um ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess...

W




> --
> -Barry Shein
>
> Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com |
> http://www.TheWorld.com
> Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD   | 800-THE-WRLD
> The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
>


-- 
The computing scientist’s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his own making.
  -- E. W. Dijkstra

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mel Beckman]

Barry,

It’s really a problem. Several lineman are maimed or killed every year because 
of DIY ignorance. I’ve already provided one incident. You can easily find more.

It’s virtually impossible for lineman to protect against this risk while 
working. These guys aren’t idiots, they are highly trained professionals. They 
make sure power lines are de-energized from the grid before they touch them, 
but there comes a point where they have to put hands on in order to affect 
repairs. 

It’s while they are doing this hands-on work that some thoughtles homeowner 
decides to fire up his DIY wrongheaded generator, feeding 120 V backwards 
through a cascade of transformers to produce 12,000 or more volts. It takes 
only a few milliamps through the heart to kill someone. But often these 
accidents result in horrific third-degree burns.

We all know people, and we might even be people, who have home generators. I 
suspect many of these use direct attach rather than transfer switches. You 
could help teach them the right thing to do.

 -mel 

> On Aug 25, 2021, at 11:33 AM, b...@theworld.com wrote:
> 
> 
> Ok, I'll be the curmudgeon...
> 
> Is this really a problem in practice?
> 
> Most people I've known who worked around electrical mains etc assumed
> the worst at all times and it isn't all that difficult to protect
> against as one works.
> 
> I realize one can infinitely invoke "better safe than sorry!", "an
> ounce of prevention...!"
> 
> 
> 
> Except maybe that one guy at Harvard who came to replace what turned
> out to be a 100+ year old, home made, "breaker" which fed our machine
> room which was hidden in a narrow dark hallway winding around our
> machine room behind an unmarked metal, locked doorway. I had no idea
> it existed but we had no power so I called for help.
> 
> It was just a single copper bar about the size of a small candy bar
> tensioned into hot clips. Probably 400A but who remembers.
> 
> He removed the old one confidently enough, grabbed the new one with
> rubber-handled pliers and gloves and...
> 
>  Him: Have you ever played football?
> 
>  Me: Actually, yes, I have, why?
> 
>  Him: If something doesn't look right when I put this thing in just
>  tackle me clear of it as hard and as fast as you can.
> 
>  Me: Um, ok.
> 
> It all worked out fine and I wrote a memo that maybe Harvard could
> spring for a proper $500 breaker box?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>-Barry Shein
> 
> Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | 
> http://www.TheWorld.com
> Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD   | 800-THE-WRLD
> The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Warren Kumari]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:06 AM Jared Mauch  wrote:

>
>
> > On Aug 25, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Mark Tinka  wrote:
> >
> > You need to make these things fool-proof. We haven't traveled in over a
> year but the day we do, it's a recipe for disaster if the person that deals
> with this stuff is on the road when the power goes out back at home.
>
> This is why I personally spent the $$ on a proper standby generator with
> multiple ATS for the multiple panels.
>
>
Yah. I suspect that a fair bit of this depends on where you live. I have a
fairly rural house, and the power comes across the (Shenandoah) river, and
then down an overhead feed which branches off to 6 or 8 neighbors, before
running up the hill to a transformer on a pole near my house. We would lose
power around once every 2 or 3 months (trees, wind, snow, etc). We
installed a whole house generator (with transfer switch), and ... well,
actually, just after we did this the local power company did a bunch of
maintenance and now the supply is more stable, but still

This all reminds me that I need to go and do an oil change/maintenance on
the generator -- it sent me an alert the week before last that it has
reached its maintenance interval, but it's been a bit too hot to do this
yet...

W

- Jared



-- 
The computing scientist’s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his own making.
  -- E. W. Dijkstra

Network Documentation Application Recommendations

[JoeSox]

Hello,

I first learned of NETDOT by Oregon State from this list but I have lost
the prebuilt VM image I had on file and looks like the source code out on
github doesn't compile anymore.

So I liked how NETDOT was
1) Free
2) Created Topology image on the fly
3) Connected to network devices via SNMP to get version and interface
details.

Any NETDOT replacement recommendations?
I have an https://www.networksecuritytoolkit.org box but not sure if any of
the builtin apps can do it yet, I don't remember seeing one in the build
but I may be missing it.
--
Thank You,
Joe

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[bzs]

Ok, I'll be the curmudgeon...

Is this really a problem in practice?

Most people I've known who worked around electrical mains etc assumed
the worst at all times and it isn't all that difficult to protect
against as one works.

I realize one can infinitely invoke "better safe than sorry!", "an
ounce of prevention...!"



Except maybe that one guy at Harvard who came to replace what turned
out to be a 100+ year old, home made, "breaker" which fed our machine
room which was hidden in a narrow dark hallway winding around our
machine room behind an unmarked metal, locked doorway. I had no idea
it existed but we had no power so I called for help.

It was just a single copper bar about the size of a small candy bar
tensioned into hot clips. Probably 400A but who remembers.

He removed the old one confidently enough, grabbed the new one with
rubber-handled pliers and gloves and...

  Him: Have you ever played football?

  Me: Actually, yes, I have, why?

  Him: If something doesn't look right when I put this thing in just
  tackle me clear of it as hard and as fast as you can.

  Me: Um, ok.

It all worked out fine and I wrote a memo that maybe Harvard could
spring for a proper $500 breaker box?



-- 
-Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD   | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Michael Thomas]

On 8/25/21 11:11 AM, Jay Hennigan wrote:


The question that Ethan raised makes sense, however. If power to 
several blocks is out and I connect my little 2KW Honda to my house 
wiring without a transfer switch, because transformers work in both 
directions my generator will see the load of the whole neighborhood. 
This will immediately and severely overload the generator and at best 
cause it to stall out or trip its output breaker, at worst to fail 
catastrophically.


I know that a nearby house burned down and was blamed on back feeding 
the grid. I assume that it failed catastrophically. Bad idea all around.


Mike

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE]

So the issue here is even a small 120vac current becomes a very fatal event at 
7.2 or 11 or 14.4kV.  It’s a safety issue for linepersons doing emergency 
restoration work.



Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE
6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC 
CEO 
l...@6by7.net
"The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the 
world.”

FCC License KJ6FJJ

Sent from my iPhone via RFC1149.

> On Aug 25, 2021, at 7:24 AM, Ethan O'Toole  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>>> How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?
>> Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.
> 
> If you hook 100KW of neighbors up to your 5KW/20% THD garden generator it 
> would probably trip the breaker, or stall.
> 
> I suppose it could be an issue if it was a single house on a branch where the 
> break being serviced was just that branch (rural customers.)
> 
> Was just curious why it wouldn't overload the generator trying to power all 
> the neighbors houses if connected to the grid.
> 
>- Ethan
> 

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Jay Hennigan]

On 8/25/21 10:25, Mel Beckman wrote:

Jay,

No, because transformers work in both directions :)


I think you mean, "Yes, because transformers work in both directions." 
First of all, I absolutely agree that no one should attempt to energize 
their home wiring with a standby generator unless there is a proper 
transfer switch in place. I very much understand the safety concerns.


The question that Ethan raised makes sense, however. If power to several 
blocks is out and I connect my little 2KW Honda to my house wiring 
without a transfer switch, because transformers work in both directions 
my generator will see the load of the whole neighborhood. This will 
immediately and severely overload the generator and at best cause it to 
stall out or trip its output breaker, at worst to fail catastrophically.


In the very rare case that the outage is at the fuse on the pole pig 
feeding just my house or that of me and one or two neighbors, then 
indeed the generator may continue to run and that transformer will have 
distribution voltage of 4KV or so on the utility side, a very dangerous 
condition. That's a pretty unusual situation, however. Typical power 
outages are substantially more widespread. My little generator would be 
looking at the load of the entire outage area reflected through the 
(bidirectional as you note) transformers. The load of half the town 
will, as Ethan speculated, completely overwhelm any practical 
residential standby generator to the point that it stops producing power 
either by failure or by tripping its breaker.


Even if the generator were massive and survived, its branch circuit 
breaker or the house main would trip long before sufficient power to 
feed a large area was able to flow back into the utility's wiring.


Yes, connecting a generator without a transfer switch is a horrible idea 
and likely to get someone killed, agreed.*  However, as the vast 
majority of power failures involve more than a single residence, the 
generator will fail to produce power immediately anyway due to looking 
at essentially a dead short.


* Every time I've seen utility workers working on lines that are assumed 
to be dead, the first thing they do is clamp them to ground to be 
certain. When the lines are assumed to be live, massive insulation 
sleeves, heavy gloves, insulated booms and the like are used.

--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Matt Erculiani]

In theory, Jay is correct, but assuming that theory will always work in
practice is, in this case, how linemen end up dead. We're all well aware of
never assuming theory = practice, but admittedly the stakes tend to be a
little lower in our world.

Ensuring that a generator physically cannot backfeed is just one layer of
protection against the already very high risk of the job of a lineman. Then
there is, of course, checking for the presence of voltage before starting
work, but it's possible for a generator to start AFTER this check.

Another layer of protection is grounding all conductors prior to beginning
work, so that if power does come back (via the grid or a backfeed) A: The
lineman and bucket is not the best path to ground and B: The source is
tripped.

Reading through that forum post, it sounds like that particular contractor
had a reputation for lacking proper safety precautions, so one or more
safety layers may have been removed, making the risk/impact of any single
mistake much greater than it should be.

-Matt

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:25 AM Mel Beckman  wrote:

> Jay,
>
> No, because transformers work in both directions :)
>
> Plus, to the previous commenter that talked about “suicide cords”:
> they’’re more correctly termed “homicide  cords”:
>
> “ The lineman killed yesterday was working for Pike Electric and picked up
> a line that was connected to someones house that hooked up a generator and
> did not disconnect from the distribution system. The linemans name was
> Ronnie Adams, age unknown. He had two children and a wife. As far as I know
> he was from Louisiana. They are trying to set up a fund for his family, but
> nothing I have heard of yet. I will let yall know more as I hear of it. I
> wish they would really teach folks the proper connection of generators,
> this was a really tragic and preventable accident. Stay Safe and think
> about it before you do it.”
>
> https://powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?711-Storm-Death
>
>  -mel
>
> On Aug 25, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Jay Hennigan  wrote:
>
> On 8/25/21 07:04, Mark Tinka wrote:
>
> On 8/25/21 15:59, Ethan O'Toole wrote:
>
>
> How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?
>
> Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.
>
>
> If you fail to isolate your generator from the incoming utility feed so
> that you're back-feeding the utility and the power is out for your
> neighborhood or the whole city, would not the load of trying to light up
> the whole town completely overwhelm your little generator to the point that
> it fails, stalls, or trips its own output breaker?
>
> --
> Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
> Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
> 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
>
>

-- 
Matt Erculiani
ERCUL-ARIN

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mel Beckman]

Jay,

No, because transformers work in both directions :)

Plus, to the previous commenter that talked about “suicide cords”: they’’re 
more correctly termed “homicide  cords”:

“ The lineman killed yesterday was working for Pike Electric and picked up a 
line that was connected to someones house that hooked up a generator and did 
not disconnect from the distribution system. The linemans name was Ronnie 
Adams, age unknown. He had two children and a wife. As far as I know he was 
from Louisiana. They are trying to set up a fund for his family, but nothing I 
have heard of yet. I will let yall know more as I hear of it. I wish they would 
really teach folks the proper connection of generators, this was a really 
tragic and preventable accident. Stay Safe and think about it before you do it.”

https://powerlineman.com/lforum/showthread.php?711-Storm-Death

 -mel

On Aug 25, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Jay Hennigan  wrote:

On 8/25/21 07:04, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 8/25/21 15:59, Ethan O'Toole wrote:

How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?
Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.

If you fail to isolate your generator from the incoming utility feed so that 
you're back-feeding the utility and the power is out for your neighborhood or 
the whole city, would not the load of trying to light up the whole town 
completely overwhelm your little generator to the point that it fails, stalls, 
or trips its own output breaker?

--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Sabri Berisha]

- On Aug 25, 2021, at 7:04 AM, Mark Tinka mark@tinka.africa wrote:

Hello Mark,

> At the home, you typically have someone that is responsible for knowing
> what to do in case of an outage, and switching over to self-generation.
> If that person is not there, or has passed out from too many bottles of
> wine that evening, someone else might think it's just a matter of
> starting the generator, unwinding a suicide cord and plugging it into
> the wall - totally forgetting about the main breaker.

At my home, I use this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CONE4MG

The interlock kit is installed in such a way that either the main or 
the generator circuit breaker is closed. If the main is on, you can't
switch to generator power, and vice versa (see the pictures on the
listing, mine is installed the exact same way).

Thanks,

Sabri

 

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Jay Hennigan]

On 8/25/21 07:04, Mark Tinka wrote:



On 8/25/21 15:59, Ethan O'Toole wrote:



How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?


Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.


If you fail to isolate your generator from the incoming utility feed so 
that you're back-feeding the utility and the power is out for your 
neighborhood or the whole city, would not the load of trying to light up 
the whole town completely overwhelm your little generator to the point 
that it fails, stalls, or trips its own output breaker?


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Dave]

Back feed is a significant problem but bringing a generator that is not 
synchronized to the grid can have dramatic results, typically only once

Dave

> On Aug 25, 2021, at 11:11 AM, Mark Tinka  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/25/21 16:59, Jared Mauch wrote:
> 
>> This is why I personally spent the $$ on a proper standby generator with 
>> multiple ATS for the multiple panels.
> 
> Same here.
> 
> Massively painful, which led to some boring moments testing, testing and more 
> testing. But after 5 months with electricians, electrical certifiers, battery 
> vendors and inverter vendors (and a little voltage/amp sensor to capture slow 
> voltage grid brownouts that kept tripping my battery), it's been solid for 
> nearly a year. And looking good.
> 
> I can now travel and not worry about the Mrs. waking me up from my sleep, on 
> the far side of the world :-).
> 
> Mark.

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/25/21 16:59, Jared Mauch wrote:


This is why I personally spent the $$ on a proper standby generator with 
multiple ATS for the multiple panels.


Same here.

Massively painful, which led to some boring moments testing, testing and 
more testing. But after 5 months with electricians, electrical 
certifiers, battery vendors and inverter vendors (and a little 
voltage/amp sensor to capture slow voltage grid brownouts that kept 
tripping my battery), it's been solid for nearly a year. And looking good.


I can now travel and not worry about the Mrs. waking me up from my 
sleep, on the far side of the world :-).


Mark.

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Jared Mauch]

> On Aug 25, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Mark Tinka  wrote:
> 
> You need to make these things fool-proof. We haven't traveled in over a year 
> but the day we do, it's a recipe for disaster if the person that deals with 
> this stuff is on the road when the power goes out back at home.

This is why I personally spent the $$ on a proper standby generator with 
multiple ATS for the multiple panels.

- Jared

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/25/21 16:24, Ethan O'Toole wrote:



If you hook 100KW of neighbors up to your 5KW/20% THD garden generator 
it would probably trip the breaker, or stall.


Assuming that you don't want to deliberately simulate a utility grid on 
the same transformer as your neighbors, the bad news is that line 
workers could be injured by your back-feeding. Not so likely for your 
neighbors because they wouldn't be touching the lines, but yeah, not 
great for line workers actually working on them.


At any rate, you will trip any generator once you overload it. Worst 
case, you'll burn out its electrical components.





I suppose it could be an issue if it was a single house on a branch 
where the break being serviced was just that branch (rural customers.)


Typical assumption, regardless of it's urban or rural, as each house 
would have its own main breaker anyway - both at the customer panel, as 
well as at the utility source point (last one may vary by country).





Was just curious why it wouldn't overload the generator trying to 
power all the neighbors houses if connected to the grid.


If you did not isolate your self-generation equipment from the grid, 
then you may very well become a provider for your neighbors all hooked 
on to the same distribution wiring, or even on the same transformer.


It would likely never work in any meaningful way, and you increase your 
chances of starting a fire or breaking things irreparably.


AC-coupled grid-tied solar inverters automatically stop making PV power 
once the grid disappears, to avoid this very problem, if you do not have 
a local battery to substitute. This is defined under UL 1741 that all 
major PV inverter OEM's follow. There have been some changes defined 
under "California Rule 21 Tariff" that ease UL 1741 somewhat, to avoid 
PV inverters from disconnecting from the grid during an outage in order 
maintain grid stability, i.e., when a grid provider is accepting 
significant amounts of feed-in from private or commercial 
self-generation customers, a sudden disconnect of all that capacity 
during a main grid outage could make for a very unstable grid due to 
massive and sudden variations in voltage and frequency.


I'm not yet sure of any other places besides California that implemented 
this requirement against PV inverter OEM's. I haven't tracked it since 
2017. I know that here in South Africa, UL 1741 is still the main and 
only requirement.


A grid-tied battery inverter will automatically disconnect from the grid 
when it disappears, so it has no chance of transferring PV or battery 
energy on to the grid network.


Generators are not usually that intelligent. Some manual switching 
required to avoid grid back-feed, which was Sean's initial point. If 
done well, the generator would have an ATS (automatic transfer switch, 
either integrated or an add-on) to take care of all of this. In the 
absence of that (due to cost management or a lack of a thorough job), a 
manual changeover is highly recommended.


Mark.

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Ethan O'Toole]

 How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?

Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.


If you hook 100KW of neighbors up to your 5KW/20% THD garden generator it 
would probably trip the breaker, or stall.


I suppose it could be an issue if it was a single house on a branch where 
the break being serviced was just that branch (rural customers.)


Was just curious why it wouldn't overload the generator trying to power 
all the neighbors houses if connected to the grid.


- Ethan

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/25/21 15:59, Ethan O'Toole wrote:



How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?


Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.




(Just curious, I know people who use a suicide cord usually turn off 
the main breaker.)


At the home, you typically have someone that is responsible for knowing 
what to do in case of an outage, and switching over to self-generation. 
If that person is not there, or has passed out from too many bottles of 
wine that evening, someone else might think it's just a matter of 
starting the generator, unwinding a suicide cord and plugging it into 
the wall - totally forgetting about the main breaker.


You need to make these things fool-proof. We haven't traveled in over a 
year but the day we do, it's a recipe for disaster if the person that 
deals with this stuff is on the road when the power goes out back at home.


Mark.

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Ethan O'Toole]

 Back feeding electric power into the utility lines is dangerous for the
 repair crews working on utility lines.

Same advice applies to solar or stationery storage inverters. Typically,
these are automated enough to disconnect from the grid after an outage, 

if
you don't have a local battery; or the battery inverter will isolate 

away


How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?

(Just curious, I know people who use a suicide cord usually turn 
off the main breaker.)


- Ethan

Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without transfer switch

[Mark Tinka]

On 8/23/21 19:53, Sean Donelan wrote:

Currently a problem in the north-east USA, but applicable after every 
storm.


People in the south have more experience with hurricanes, and are used 
to this advice.  But apparently, some folks up north aren't in practice.


Never connect an electric generator to home electrical wiring without 
installing a transfer switch to disconnect power from the electric 
grid.  Back feeding electric power into the utility lines is dangerous 
for the repair crews working on utility lines.


Standard advice when you do any kind of distributed or embedded 
generation outside of the grid.


Mistakes like these are more likely to come from DIY'ers who put in 2hrs 
of Youtube and think they are suddenly qualified electricians.


Same advice applies to solar or stationery storage inverters. Typically, 
these are automated enough to disconnect from the grid after an outage, 
if you don't have a local battery; or the battery inverter will isolate 
away from the grid in case of grid failure, but still form its own 
micro-grid for the building. So back-feeding into the grid is not a concern.


But for combustion generators, yeah, have a qualified electrician do the 
install. Just saves time, money and lives.


Mark.

Re: Amazon Prime Video IP reputation

[Josh Luthman]

Thanks for the update.  I'm getting more and more complaints every day.

Amazon chat support asked my customer to install a VPN.  That enabled the
customer to watch videos.  What an irony...

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021, 7:21 PM Eric C. Miller  wrote:

> So far, the only provider that’s given us a positive confirmation has been
> GeoComply/GeoGuard. Still working on getting resolution. We’ve been able to
> move some CGNAT gateways to different IPs, but it only buys 3-4 days before
> they get flagged again.
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> *From:* Nathan Gerencser 
> *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 11:19 AM
> *To:* Josh Luthman ; Eric C. Miller <
> e...@ericheather.com>
> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org
> *Subject:* RE: Amazon Prime Video IP reputation
>
>
>
> Geoguard takes care of Amazon and are usually responsive.
>
>
>
> n...@geoguard.com
>
>
>
> *Nathan Gerencser,* *Network Engineer*
> MetaLINK Technologies
>