[NSP] Re: Preserving the tradition...a non-traditional approach.

[Christopher.Birch]

"Bonny Pit Laddie" etc. Now THAT'S real NSP playing. Wonderful, Chris!"

Couldn't agree more. Technically and musically fabulous.

But on a darker note, am I alone in not understanding the reference to 
"nepotism"? Can someone explain?
c






To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Preserving the tradition...a non-traditional approach.

[Christopher.Birch]

Matt of course is talking even more sense on these specific points. Patrick's 
idea of things like Riverdance bringing people to an instrument in the first 
place is a valid one, though

I wonder how many people discovered renaissance polyphony through jan gabarek 
(and subsequently decided that he and the hilliard ensemble would do better to 
go their separate ways)?

chirs 




-Original Message-
From: Matt Seattle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:59 AM
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; 'Doc Jones'
Subject: [NSP] Re: Preserving the tradition...a non-traditional approach.

On Thu Nov  2  0:37 , 'Doc Jones' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:

>I've been watching the jazz thread a bit.  There seems to be a certain
reluctance to see the NSP being used in venues that are not strictly 
traditional.

The jazz thread is a total red herring. Nobody can play jazz on the NSP, the
people who are talking about it can't play jazz on anything as far as I know - I
would be very surprised to be corrected on that. Jazz is not something you 
dabble
in, and neither is trad music, or classical music, they are total disciplines.

>I would suggest that the best way to preserve the tradition of NSP is to have
them played in as many venues and types of music as possible.

The tradition of the NSP is that there are maybe half a dozen players at the 
most
at any one time who actually uphold the tradition, the rest support it by
aspiring and learning and in other ways. It's not a mass movement, why does
anyone want it to be? I'm always suspicious of evangelists, they make me suspect
some deep insecurity somewhere.

>I hope we don't cling so tightly to the tradition that we strangle it into
extinction. :)

The danger lies in precisely the opposite direction, there is so little
understanding of the real essence of the tradition and so much watering down 
that
Northumbrian smallpiping has all but disappeared into the general celtoid 
miasma.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Preserving the tradition...a non-traditional approach.

[Christopher.Birch]

Patrick is talking a lot of sense here, I think, except for the last bit.




I'm sorry, but this is frankly nonsense for several reasons:

1) the violin was not "corrupted" to play a wide range of music. It simply 
plays a wide range of music.
 
2) the viola da gamba tradition was not debased by "fiddlers". The violin (or 
rather the violin family) is a different, more recently developed, (set of) 
instrument(s) that coexisted with the more ancient gamba family from around the 
mid 16th century, when the violin family started to emerge, until gambas went 
out of fashion around the mid-18th century  - think "big concert halls", ­and 
please do not even contemplate using the word "predecessor" about the gamba 
unless you agree with statements such as "the clarinet was the predecessor of 
the saxophone" or "the lute was the predecessor of the stratocaster" ;-) 
Gambas, moreover, have been back with a vengeance for quite some time.
 
Gamba-lovers did tend to find the early violins a bit loud and brash, but it 
wasn't a "debasement" of "their tradition", and of course it was the sheer 
power of the violin family that made it so suitable for the development of new, 
"bigger" and more public kinds of music.

3) The gamba scene is alive and well, thank you very much. In fact, you will 
find there are rather more viola da gamba players around than Northumbrian and 
possibly uilleann pipers. Try a google on "viola da gamba" (admittedly you 
won't find much on "viol d'gamba" except as an organ stop). For example, I live 
in Luxembourg and regularly play six- and even seven-part gamba consorts with 
people (and not always the same ones) who don't have to travel far. On the 
other hand, I know only one other NSP player (wotcha dvae!) and no UP players 
at all in the entire country.

chirs 







To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: preserving the tradition....a non-traditional approach

[Christopher.Birch]

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: preserving the tradition....a non-traditional approach

[Christopher.Birch]

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: preserving the tradition....a non-traditional approach

[Christopher.Birch]

in response to Chris Birch:
>  Playing by ear alone is a
> good way of risking permanent loss of repertoire even without
> manuscripts being thrown onto the fire.

We even already have a fine recorded example of this process in 
action.

I assume you're alluding to matt's album with stuff from the dixon manuscript 
(to which I was alluding).
Nice album - I own it.
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note

[Christopher.Birch]

The written notes identify a piece. By "nuances" i expect hilary means aspects 
of style (though in French "les nuances" means "dynamics" - loud and soft, 
crescendo-diminuendo etc.).

Style - i.e. phrasing, articulation etc. - is tradition. It can be conveyed by 
a teacher and/or absorbed from careful listening. "Classical" music is as much 
a tradition as any other genre. The top young students have often acquired a 
solid and complete technique from their "anonymous" teachers before they go 
near a big name to study the finer points of interpretation.

In Hilary's specific case, it would be interesting to see what she had written 
and to compare it with how she plays the same pieces. I don't think one can 
generalise about how to put a maximum of music into the notes on the page.

The older the music, the fewer the markings - presumably because people weren't 
exposed to a wide variety of styles as they are today (transport, 
communications). The addition of markings reached an extreme with webern, who 
put dynamics over rests (go figure).

The following delight may be new to some of you:
http://www.well.com/user/bryan/waltz.html

chirs



-Original Message-
From: Hilary de Vries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:41 PM
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] the vagaries of the written note

With the topic drifting into the area of written music, I'd like to ask to
see if other people have had the same experience as me with regards to
writing music down.

 


Before starting to compose myself, I took written music pretty much as
gospel (probably encouraged by learning Highland chanter where it all felt
very spelt out).  Then when I tried to write my tunes down, I discovered
that it was far from an exact science.  I felt like I was squeezing them
into some kind of musical corset: the overall shape was okay, but somehow
the nuances had been flattened out.  The fact that some of my tunes don't
have a regular time signature hasn't made the process any easier.  I've sort
of accepted the limitations of the written note, but not without a struggle,
and the fight's not over yet.

 

I wonder what other people's experiences have been, and if similar battles
have been fought.  Or if, unlike me, you've found ways to get your tune over
without feeling compromised.  If so, I'd love to know how!  

 

I look forward to your replies!

 

Hilary


--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note

[Christopher.Birch]

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: 07 November 2006 09:18
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note


The written notes identify a piece. By "nuances" i expect hilary means
aspects of style (though in French "les nuances" means "dynamics" - loud and
soft, crescendo-diminuendo etc.).

Style - i.e. phrasing, articulation etc. - is tradition. It can be conveyed
by a teacher and/or absorbed from careful listening. "Classical" music is as
much a tradition as any other genre. The top young students have often
acquired a solid and complete technique from their "anonymous" teachers
before they go near a big name to study the finer points of interpretation.

In Hilary's specific case, it would be interesting to see what she had
written and to compare it with how she plays the same pieces. I don't think
one can generalise about how to put a maximum of music into the notes on the
page.

The older the music, the fewer the markings - presumably because people
weren't exposed to a wide variety of styles as they are today (transport,
communications). The addition of markings reached an extreme with webern,
who put dynamics over rests (go figure).

The following delight may be new to some of you:
http://www.well.com/user/bryan/waltz.html

chirs



-Original Message-
From: Hilary de Vries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:41 PM
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] the vagaries of the written note

With the topic drifting into the area of written music, I'd like to ask to
see if other people have had the same experience as me with regards to
writing music down.

 


Before starting to compose myself, I took written music pretty much as
gospel (probably encouraged by learning Highland chanter where it all felt
very spelt out).  Then when I tried to write my tunes down, I discovered
that it was far from an exact science.  I felt like I was squeezing them
into some kind of musical corset: the overall shape was okay, but somehow
the nuances had been flattened out.  The fact that some of my tunes don't
have a regular time signature hasn't made the process any easier.  I've sort
of accepted the limitations of the written note, but not without a struggle,
and the fight's not over yet.

 

I wonder what other people's experiences have been, and if similar battles
have been fought.  Or if, unlike me, you've found ways to get your tune over
without feeling compromised.  If so, I'd love to know how!  

 

I look forward to your replies!

 

Hilary


--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



__ NOD32 1.1856 (20061106) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note

[Christopher.Birch]

I'll be retired first ... Oh happy day.
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: tune

[Christopher.Birch]

Hm, I'd been wondering this myself. And aren't there a few dots missing?

chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: reed making

[Christopher.Birch]

Fascinating, he makes it look so easy.
The other nsp stuff is also brillant, particularly the clough family.
 

-Original Message-
From: Stephen Douglass [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:20 PM
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] reed making

If anyone is interested I have posted a video on You Tube which is  
'part one' of  reed making by Colin Ross.

I will post the remaining parts every couple of weeks.

This is purely educational & NOT a business venture, so I didn't  
think it was a problem to post this.

The link to view is below.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gYQ82P6GZE

Cheers

Steve Douglass



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: German word

[Christopher.Birch]

<_www.bagpipe.de_ (http://www.bagpipe.de)  says  'Bordunen'
 
This is correct - but only in the dative case. The nominative, accusative and 
genitive plural is "Bordune" (and the genitive singular is "Borduns").
chirs 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: German word

[Christopher.Birch]

From http://www.bagpipe.de/query.php?cp_tpl=main&cp_sid=182565295b45
chirs

 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: NSP - German Words

[Christopher.Birch]

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: German word

[Christopher.Birch]

Hartvig Körner wrote:

< Theoretically,  
the plural form would be "die Bordunen"

According to which theory? According to both Wildhagen and Harraps (the only 
German dictionaries I happen to have at hand), Brockhaus and bagpipe.de it's 
Bordune (except in the dative. All German plurals end in "n" in the dative.)

at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordun we find "Bordun" defined as:

1) an organ stop, 2) the lowest pitched in a set of bells,

and

"3) einen während der gesamten Melodie oder signifikanter Teile eines 
Musikstücks ausgehaltenen Begleitklang gleicher Tonhöhe" [An accompanying sound 
of constant pitch sustained throughout the entire melody or significant parts 
of a piece of music] (in other words, a drone)
 
and last but not least:


"4) umgangssprachlich auch die Bordunpfeifen und Bordunsaiten (siehe weiter 
unten)." [colloquially also the drone pipes and drone strings (see below for 
further information)]

So, if we want to be pedantic, "Bordun" refers to the droning phenomenon and 
the bit(s) of the instrument producing it is one Bordunpfeife or several 
Bordunpfeifen (the "n" here is the plural ­in all grammatical cases, not just 
the dative (German is complicated)).

I suppose strictly speaking it's the same in English ; "drone pipes" produce 
the "drone". So we call them "drones" for short.

To further complicate matters, some nouns in German can, but need not, add an 
"e" in the dative singular - so we can find, at 
http://www.mittelalter.de/shop/produktkatalog/Sackpfeifen,Sackpfeifen_32_produktkatalog_liste.html
 , for example - "mit 1 [einem] Bordune" (dative after "mit") [with one drone]. 
Very confusing, but correct.

So, to sum up:

It's "one 'Bordun'" (but can - but doesn't have to - be "with, from, to etc. 
one 'Bordune'") and "more than one 'Bordune'" (but *must* be "with, from, to 
etc. more than one 'Bordunen'").

And colloquially the word can be used to mean "drone (hardware)"

No prizes for guessing what I've been doing for a living since 1974 ;-)

HTH.

chirs   



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: German word

[Christopher.Birch]

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: German word

[Christopher.Birch]

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 24 April 2007 09:24
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: German word

Hartvig Körner wrote:

< Theoretically,
the plural form would be "die Bordunen"

According to which theory? According to both Wildhagen and Harraps (the only 
German dictionaries I happen to have at hand), Brockhaus and bagpipe.de it's 
Bordune (except in the dative. All German plurals end in "n" in the dative.)

at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordun we find "Bordun" defined as:

1) an organ stop, 2) the lowest pitched in a set of bells,

and

"3) einen während der gesamten Melodie oder signifikanter Teile eines 
Musikstücks ausgehaltenen Begleitklang gleicher Tonhöhe" [An accompanying sound 
of constant pitch sustained throughout the entire melody or significant parts 
of a piece of music] (in other words, a drone)
 
and last but not least:


"4) umgangssprachlich auch die Bordunpfeifen und Bordunsaiten (siehe weiter 
unten)." [colloquially also the drone pipes and drone strings (see below for 
further information)]

So, if we want to be pedantic, "Bordun" refers to the droning phenomenon and 
the bit(s) of the instrument producing it is one Bordunpfeife or several 
Bordunpfeifen (the "n" here is the plural ­in all grammatical cases, not just 
the dative (German is complicated)).

I suppose strictly speaking it's the same in English ; "drone pipes" produce 
the "drone". So we call them "drones" for short.

To further complicate matters, some nouns in German can, but need not, add an 
"e" in the dative singular - so we can find, at 
http://www.mittelalter.de/shop/produktkatalog/Sackpfeifen,Sackpfeifen_32_produktkatalog_liste.html
 , for example - "mit 1 [einem] Bordune" (dative after "mit") [with one drone]. 
Very confusing, but correct.

So, to sum up:

It's "one 'Bordun'" (but can - but doesn't have to - be "with, from, to etc. 
one 'Bordune'") and "more than one 'Bordune'" (but *must* be "with, from, to 
etc. more than one 'Bordunen'").

And colloquially the word can be used to mean "drone (hardware)"

No prizes for guessing what I've been doing for a living since 1974 ;-)

HTH.

chirs   



To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: German word - and strictly speaking off topic

[Christopher.Birch]

:

> Hartvig Körner wrote:
>
> < Theoretically,
> the plural form would be "die Bordunen"
>
> According to which theory? According to both Wildhagen and Harraps  
> (the only German dictionaries I happen to have at hand), Brockhaus  
> and bagpipe.de it's Bordune (except in the dative. All German  
> plurals end in "n" in the dative.)
>
> at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordun we find "Bordun" defined as:
>
> 1) an organ stop, 2) the lowest pitched in a set of bells,
>
> and
>
> "3) einen während der gesamten Melodie oder signifikanter Teile  
> eines Musikstücks ausgehaltenen Begleitklang gleicher Tonhöhe" [An  
> accompanying sound of constant pitch sustained throughout the  
> entire melody or significant parts of a piece of music] (in other  
> words, a drone)
>
> and last but not least:
>
>
> "4) umgangssprachlich auch die Bordunpfeifen und Bordunsaiten  
> (siehe weiter unten)." [colloquially also the drone pipes and drone  
> strings (see below for further information)]
>
> So, if we want to be pedantic, "Bordun" refers to the droning  
> phenomenon and the bit(s) of the instrument producing it is one  
> Bordunpfeife or several Bordunpfeifen (the "n" here is the plural  
> in all grammatical cases, not just the dative (German is  
> complicated)).
>
> I suppose strictly speaking it's the same in English ; "drone  
> pipes" produce the "drone". So we call them "drones" for short.
>
> To further complicate matters, some nouns in German can, but need  
> not, add an "e" in the dative singular - so we can find, at http:// 
> www.mittelalter.de/shop/produktkatalog/ 
> Sackpfeifen,Sackpfeifen_32_produktkatalog_liste.html , for example  
> - "mit 1 [einem] Bordune" (dative after "mit") [with one drone].  
> Very confusing, but correct.
>
> So, to sum up:
>
> It's "one 'Bordun'" (but can - but doesn't have to - be "with,  
> from, to etc. one 'Bordune'") and "more than one 'Bordune'" (but  
> *must* be "with, from, to etc. more than one 'Bordunen'").
>
> And colloquially the word can be used to mean "drone (hardware)"
>
> No prizes for guessing what I've been doing for a living since  
> 1974 ;-)
>
> HTH.
>
> chirs
>
>




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: German word

[Christopher.Birch]

I consulted a colleague on this point. Here are my questions and his replies:

"Is K=F6rner making any sense here? Or is he mixing up rules that apply to 
adjectives with those that apply to nouns? 
No. 
Probably.

According to German grammar, the 1. casus, Nominativ, undefined  
pluralis ("any"), is "Bordune". 1. casus Nominativ defined pluralis  
("these") is "Die Bordunen".
Nonsense. The only way a masculine noun like Bordun could get an -en plural 
(except in the dative) is if it is a 'weak' noun like Mensch.

-

I can get this corroborated by native German speakers if you insist.
c

--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: German word

[Christopher.Birch]

"K=F6rner"

An example of a cybermangled dieresis. 
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: German word

[Christopher.Birch]

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: German word - and strictly off topic

[Christopher.Birch]

c

>  pluralis ("any"), is "Bordune". 1. casus Nominativ defined pluralis
> ("these") is "Die Bordunen".
>
> Can you refer me to any authority you are quoting here?
>
> And what would the terminology be if you stuck to one language rather than
> a mixture of Latin, English and German/Scandinavian (nominativ)?
>
> Nominative plurals of *adjectives* not preceded by an article (indefinite
> (sic)) end in "e" while those preceded by the definite (sic) article (die
> =  "the") end in "en". "these" is the demonstrative adjective in English,
> corresponding to the German "diese").
>
> "Bordun" is not, however, an adjective. It's a noun, hence the above rule
> is irrelevant.
>
> Chirs
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hartwig
> Den 24. apr. 2007 kl. 10.23 skrev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> Hartvig Körner wrote:
>>
>> < Theoretically,
>> the plural form would be "die Bordunen"
>>
>> According to which theory? According to both Wildhagen and Harraps
>> (the only German dictionaries I happen to have at hand), Brockhaus
>> and bagpipe.de it's Bordune (except in the dative. All German
>> plurals end in "n" in the dative.)
>>
>> at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordun we find "Bordun" defined as:
>>
>> 1) an organ stop, 2) the lowest pitched in a set of bells,
>>
>> and
>>
>> "3) einen während der gesamten Melodie oder signifikanter Teile
>> eines Musikstücks ausgehaltenen Begleitklang gleicher Tonhöhe" [An
>> accompanying sound of constant pitch sustained throughout the
>> entire melody or significant parts of a piece of music] (in other
>> words, a drone)
>>
>> and last but not least:
>>
>>
>> "4) umgangssprachlich auch die Bordunpfeifen und Bordunsaiten
>> (siehe weiter unten)." [colloquially also the drone pipes and drone
>> strings (see below for further information)]
>>
>> So, if we want to be pedantic, "Bordun" refers to the droning
>> phenomenon and the bit(s) of the instrument producing it is one
>> Bordunpfeife or several Bordunpfeifen (the "n" here is the plural
>> in all grammatical cases, not just the dative (German is
>> complicated)).
>>
>> I suppose strictly speaking it's the same in English ; "drone
>> pipes" produce the "drone". So we call them "drones" for short.
>>
>> To further complicate matters, some nouns in German can, but need
>> not, add an "e" in the dative singular - so we can find, at http://
>> www.mittelalter.de/shop/produktkatalog/
>> Sackpfeifen,Sackpfeifen_32_produktkatalog_liste.html , for example
>> - "mit 1 [einem] Bordune" (dative after "mit") [with one drone].
>> Very confusing, but correct.
>>
>> So, to sum up:
>>
>> It's "one 'Bordun'" (but can - but doesn't have to - be "with,
>> from, to etc. one 'Bordune'") and "more than one 'Bordune'" (but
>> *must* be "with, from, to etc. more than one 'Bordunen'").
>>
>> And colloquially the word can be used to mean "drone (hardware)"
>>
>> No prizes for guessing what I've been doing for a living since
>> 1974 ;-)
>>
>> HTH.
>>
>> chirs
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>

[NSP] Re: G Set

[Christopher.Birch]

http://www.wfg.woodwind.org/recorder/rec_bas_1.html
Or http://www.recorder-fingerings.com/

Whether your A is 440, 415, 392 etc. is, of course, a totally different 
question. An nsp F chanter could be described as a G chanter tuned to A = 392 
(which, historically, is what it is. Why else would the music be written in G?) 

Bit off topic, I suppose.

chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: g set

[Christopher.Birch]

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: g chanter

[Christopher.Birch]

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] You want puerile; we have puerile!

[Christopher.Birch]

Cacky Layton?

Ok, I stop now ;-)



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Plumbing the depths, and further

[Christopher.Birch]

And of course Blow the wind southerly.
Aaarrggh 

>-Original Message-
>From: Anita Evans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:49 PM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Plumbing the depths, and further
>
>Chris Ormston wrote:
>> Dear All,
>> I recently received a card through the letterbox advertising 
>Northumbria Pipes Plumbing Services.
>
>Do ye ken John pee'd?
>
>-- 
>Anita
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: You want puerile; we have puerile!

[Christopher.Birch]

Found it!
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/Olson/SEXNAME.HTM
c 

>-Original Message-
>From: Matt Seattle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:39 PM
>To: nsp
>Subject: [NSP] Re: You want puerile; we have puerile!
>
>can we sink any lower than this?
>
>Some from the archives, mainly 18th century -
>
>Gallop and Sh•te
>Lasses P*sses Brandy (though it probably means 'boozes')
>As She P*ss'd, She Padled It
>P*ss Upon the Grass
>P*ss and Keep the Hair Dry
>
>Somewhere Bruce Olson (RIP) posted a list of rude tune titles,
>scatological and sexual. His explanation of the title Green Sleeves is
>an eye-opener.
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Plumbing the depths, and further

[Christopher.Birch]

My dearie sits ower late; what can the matter be?

c 

>-Original Message-
>From: Anita Evans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:49 PM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Plumbing the depths, and further
>
>Chris Ormston wrote:
>> Dear All,
>> I recently received a card through the letterbox advertising 
>Northumbria Pipes Plumbing Services.
>
>Do ye ken John pee'd?
>
>-- 
>Anita
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: BBC Feature and related puerility

[Christopher.Birch]

The reference to the Rolling Stones reminds me of one of my favourite misprints:
 
"Brian Jones was always something of an enigma even to his closet friends"

Chirs


>-Original Message-
>From: Ormston, Chris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 11:48 AM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] BBC Feature
>
>Back to piping matters..
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/tyne/content/articles/2008/03/17/colin_ros
>s_feature.shtml
>
>Chris
>
>
>
>The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to 
>public disclosure
>under the NHS Code of Openness or the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
>Unless the information is legally exempt, the confidentiality 
>of this e-mail
>and your reply cannot be guaranteed.
>Unless expressly stated otherwise, the information contained 
>in this e-mail
>is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you are not 
>the intended
>recipient you must not copy, distribute, or take any action or 
>reliance upon
>it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify 
>the sender. Any
>unauthorised disclosure of the information contained in this e-mail is
>strictly prohibited.
>
>--
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: (Top quality) NSP at auction

[Christopher.Birch]

>Ah sorry - my fault.

Not really because:
< The question  
>mark was intended for "anyone interested .."

If it had been intended for "Colin Ross" it would/should have been inside the 
brackets.
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] The great choyte debate redux

[Christopher.Birch]

An analogy FWIW:

I remember reading somewhere (possibly in Boyden's book on the history of 
violin playing, inter alia) that "harpsichordist do out of choice (for 
expressive reasons) what string players do out of necessity" - in other words 
arpeggiate chords. Lutenists do the same thing "so as not to leave the 
instrument empty", as frescobaldi put it.

Could we not make a similar case for the judicious use of choyting out of 
choice for expressive reasons? Doing out of choice what other pipers (not only 
highland) do out of necessity. OK, Tom Clough and others may not (have) 
approve(d) but the odd choyte along with other forms of ornamental surely 
extends rather than restricts the expressive capacity of the instrument - 
doesn't it?

Where would music be today if tritones had continued to be proscribed and 
thirds widely disapproved of as in the middle ages?

Don't all shoot at once ;-)

Chirs
 
  



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux

[Christopher.Birch]

 

>It might have saved us from that Maxwell-Davis stuff 

Not to mention Mozart and the Beatles ;-)



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux

[Christopher.Birch]

>
>Maybe we should regard the odd 'ornamental' choyte in the same 
>way - the
>beginning  of a slippery slope.
>
>But let him who is without sin


And of course Pärt chose to write the piece. So maybe we can assume that like 
the rest of us he's a bit partial to a bit of sin now and again ;-)

Don't know the piece in question, but I'm otherwise a big Pärt fan. Estonia for 
the ears.
chirs




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux

[Christopher.Birch]

   Boyden of course is not the last word in research on the history of
   violin playing. I gather from other sources that not all old bows were
   shorter, even though such authorities as Jaap Schroeder continue to
   state that they were. Don't get me wrong, I have the greatest respect
   for Jaap as both a human being and a musician, but he is one of the
   many who cling to ideas that emerged in the early days of the early
   music revival - such as the idea that stringing was generally at a
   (much) lower tension. Any one interested could do worse than czech out
   what Ephraim Segerman has to say here:

   [1]http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/About.html

   and elsewhere.

   Particularly telling is the statement "The historical information has
   been very useful to some, but most use more modern stringing because
   the traditions of the early-music movement developed before the
   research was done."  (my emphasis)

   Mersenne recommended using a long bow (though doesn't specify how
   long), and I think Boyden himself quotes some authority as saying that
   short bows were for tavern musicians (prost!).

   Certainly, a number of my "baroque bows" - copied from early 18th
   century originals in the Ashmolean collection - are more or less the
   same length as modern bows.

   Maybe the detached style was the string players in turn adapting to the
   articulation of the keyboards.

   And of course, you can detach with a modern bow too.

   chirs

   >-Original Message-
   >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [[2]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   >Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 2:38 PM
   >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; BIRCH Christopher (DGT)
   >Subject: Re: [NSP] The great choyte debate redux
   >
   >On 22 Aug 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   >
   >> I remember reading somewhere (possibly in Boyden's book on
   >the history
   >> of violin playing,)
   >
   >From the same book, which I'm currently reading / ploughing through,
   >I have bookmarked a small paragraph which remarks (of violinists in
   >the C17), that the old bows (which were shorter) meant that notes
   >were on the whole clearly articulated (approx. = detached, from the
   >context) in comparison with C19 playing where the long legato bow
   >stroke was regarded as desirable.
   >
   >I'm simplifying here, obviously.
   >
   >However it set me to wondering whether there were connections between
   >the articulated style of the violinists / fiddlers of the period and
   >the articulation of the closed chanter, developing about the same
   >time (as far as we know).
   >
   >Food for thought, anyway.
   >
   >Julia
   >
   --

References

   1. http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/About.html
   2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux

[Christopher.Birch]

>Also being in the Folk genre doesn't mean 'anything goes'.

Hear hear hear hear hear, and so on. This point cannot be emphasised enough.
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: More choyting!

[Christopher.Birch]

>Imagine if Pavarotti had thrown in the odd yodel in Nessun 
>Dorma, and you'll get the idea! 

Ah yes, but no one claims that Pavarotti's is the only way to sing - or even to 
sing Nessun Dorma.
My personal pet hates are excessive and misplaced vibrato, conjectural 
intonation and pomposity. In other words, Pavarotti - not to mention most 
classical and opera singers. Now the Hilliard Ensemble and Ian Partridge are 
other matters entirely.
(incidentally "pavarotti" has been used as an insult on the local rock scene 
here)

 (even if it's true...)



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: More choyting!

[Christopher.Birch]

tune...)

You'll be lucky ;-)



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: More choyting!

[Christopher.Birch]

>maybe we should  have a society red nose for such players :)
>Can I put my name down now.

Count me in



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: connecting with one's roots

[Christopher.Birch]

You sound like a man who absolutely has to take up the viols.
c 

>-Original Message-
>From: Wright Allan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:35 PM
>To: Paul Gretton
>Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: connecting with one's roots
>
>Well, if I chose instruments based simply on whether I liked the  
>sound of them and the size of the repertoire, I'd have a fairly long  
>list of instruments to play, hm?
>
>I already play violin, piano and cello and sing so already have a  
>fair few delightful instruments with large and interesting repertoires.
>
>I chose the pipes because they remind me of where I came from and I  
>confess to a certain nostalgia when I hear them - sorry if that  
>sounds twee, I'll try to make up some interesting nonsense next time  
>I post.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Allan
>Le 26 août 08 à 17:19, Paul Gretton a écrit :
>
>>Allan wrote:
>>
>>
> I .. play pipes as an attempt to connect with my roots.
>>
>>
>>Groan! How about playing the pipes because they are a delightful
>>musical instrument with a large and interesting repertoire?
>>
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>
>>Paul Gretton
>>
>>--
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>

[NSP] Re: the cry of the curlew, the wind in the reeds...

[Christopher.Birch]

>There were many Folk clubs during the 60's - 80's including a 
>few excellent 
>"traditional" clubs (I ran one - and played my pipes there 

Which one was that? I was quite active on the folk scene in Liverpool in the 
mid-60s but had only ever encountered nsp on record (played by colin ross 
accompanying louis killen on derwentwater farewell).
Strange our crossths didn't path ;-)



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: It's not the leaving of Liverpool that grieves me -- quite the opposite!

[Christopher.Birch]

>We were quite happy to get rid of him

I reckon to this day he thinks he's a great musician and doesn't realise that 
he wasn't being used by the other beatles as comic relief (the perfect voice 
for "a little help from my friends").
Good drummer, though, and made a serious contribution there.
Oops, way off topic. Colin's fault, I think ;-)



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: the cry of the curlew, the wind in the reeds...

[Christopher.Birch]

Ah, I left in 1968 and have not been back much since.
Coach House and Jim Peden's were main venues. Only played guitar (and just 
started fiddle when I left) in those days, so sessions were not much of an 
option - I didn't want to be yet another annoying thrasher, even if I could get 
my head round the rhythms of slip jigs and dorrington lads ;-), which I confess 
in those less enlightened days I thought was called Byker Hill ... So it goes
chirs.  

>-Original Message-
>From: Ormston, Chris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 1:06 PM
>To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT); [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
>nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: the cry of the curlew, the wind in the reeds...
>
>Me too!  Used to go to the Liverpool Trad Club at the Cross 
>Keys in the early 80s, and the Baltic Fleet, the Grapes on 
>Matthew Street, and the shorter-lived Brook House Club, and 
>made occasional forays to the Bothy in Southport.  I mostly 
>played in sessions though at the Cracke, the Nelson on the 
>Dock Road, the Irish Centre and a pub somewhere behind the 
>Philharmonic Hall, the name of which escapes me.  Most 
>memorable, though was a session on board the Irish Oak which 
>was docked near the Nelson - had to give a backhander to the 
>security man at the dock gates to get in, and nearly got 
>arrested trying to leave again as we were mistaken for illegal 
>immigrants!
>
>Chris
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: 27 August 2008 10:38
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: the cry of the curlew, the wind in the reeds...
>
>
>>There were many Folk clubs during the 60's - 80's including a 
>>few excellent 
>>"traditional" clubs (I ran one - and played my pipes there 
>
>Which one was that? I was quite active on the folk scene in 
>Liverpool in the mid-60s but had only ever encountered nsp on 
>record (played by colin ross accompanying louis killen on 
>derwentwater farewell).
>Strange our crossths didn't path ;-)
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to 
>public disclosure
>under the NHS Code of Openness or the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
>Unless the information is legally exempt, the confidentiality 
>of this e-mail
>and your reply cannot be guaranteed.
>Unless expressly stated otherwise, the information contained 
>in this e-mail
>is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you are not 
>the intended
>recipient you must not copy, distribute, or take any action or 
>reliance upon
>it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify 
>the sender. Any
>unauthorised disclosure of the information contained in this e-mail is
>strictly prohibited.
>

[NSP] Re: the cry of the curlew, the wind in the reeds...

[Christopher.Birch]

>Jim and Shirley were usually found at Gregson's Well

Yep, that's the place.

>Tuesday (been 
>there, sung there)

Idem

> along with John?

Kaneen.

> (his nickname was Yogi)

Yup.
>Cross Keys? Yes, went there as well - the formidable Tony 
>Wilson in charge 
>(Bothy ) with his captain's hat.

Idem. And Dave Boardman, who used to be my English teacher.

>Great days for folk.

Indeed.
Chirs 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] chooning

[Christopher.Birch]

Yes, Sheila's right.

anyone who got tired of the tuning debate on previous occasions is invited to 
stop here ;-)

Question: Is your absolute pitch in equal temperament. In other words, does a 
piano sound in tune - especially the thirds?

I have nothing approaching absolute pitch but very acute relative pitch. A few 
of my friends with absolute pitch have told me that it can be more of a burden 
than a blessing, and I'm inclined to believe them - particularly as I'm 
regularly changing from A = 415 to 440 or thereabouts with my bigger viols and 
baroque violin/viola depending on who I'm playing with and where, and I tune my 
pardessus to something like "very low French chamber pitch" (Quantz) around 390 
because a) it's more authentic and b) the top string doesn't break every other 
day.

("up and down like the vicar's wife's knickers" to quote a colleague)

Sorry about that..

Seriously though..

In theory, at least according to some authorities, the nsp chanter is tuned in 
just intonation (pure intervals sound better against the drones) and of course 
it can only be perfect in one key. Even if it's "ideally" tuned for G major, 
you have to decide whether you want the E to make a pure fifth with the low A 
or a pure third with the C - you can't have both. And the B and A will be 
considerably flat and a bit sharp respectively relative to a piano or other 
equal temperament instrument (or tuning device).

In practice, of course, slight tempering can be applied and pressure tweaked 
(oops, heresy aaarghh!!) to get things sounding subjectively more or less ok, 
even in different keys - including, arguably, at a pinch, E minor (which some 
authorities claim is impossible).

I hasten to add that I'm not an authority. The above is just a synthesis of 
what I've gleaned from various sources.

To flatten a note semipermanently you can apply a small crescent of white 
wood-glue (PVA) to the leading edge of the offending hole. Since the chanter is 
oiled (we hope) it is a very easy matter to remove any glue again using a sharp 
pointed object without damaging the chanter.

Recommendations for chanter tuning can be found here (not strictly just 
intonation - the A, for example would be +4 if if were):

http://www.machineconcepts.co.uk/smallpipes/tuning.htm

Hope I haven't opened any cans of worms or trodden on any toes here.

chirs
 

>-Original Message-
>From: Wright Allan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:22 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: More choyting!
>
>Thanks Sheila and Colin for your advice, I'll give it a go and see  
>how it works out.
>
>I'll try playing some A minor stuff to see if the E sounds right as  
>the fifth in that key then if not, I'll give the maker a go - if I  
>get no answer from him, I'll try the wax.
>
>What a helpful lot you pipers are! (I won't say 'we pipers' just yet  
>as scales and a few simple hornpipes probably don't qualify me!)
>
>Allan
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: chooning

[Christopher.Birch]

This is reassuring and the point about the drones is very important.
I think it's generally agreed though that beginners should strive to keep the 
pressure rock steady, is it not?
chirs   

>-Original Message-
>From: Ormston, Chris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:00 AM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: chooning
>
> 
>"In practice, of course, slight tempering can be applied and 
>pressure tweaked (oops, heresy aaarghh!!)" 
>
>I'd not consider this heresy at all.  I'd bet most competent 
>pipers will (sometimes without even realising they're doing 
>it) make slight adjustments to pressure to get the best tuning 
>from their chanters. Of course, you need good, stable drones 
>that are not too pressure-sensitive to achieve this.  I've not 
>measured this scientifically, but I think I drop pressure 
>slightly when playing in D.
>
>I find that I also make slight pressure changes to bring out 
>the tonal quality of each note too, or to enhance the quality 
>of vibrato - this works well for slow tunes, but may not be 
>practical when playing Holey Ha'penny :)
>
>Chris
>
>
>
>The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to 
>public disclosure
>under the NHS Code of Openness or the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
>Unless the information is legally exempt, the confidentiality 
>of this e-mail
>and your reply cannot be guaranteed.
>Unless expressly stated otherwise, the information contained 
>in this e-mail
>is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you are not 
>the intended
>recipient you must not copy, distribute, or take any action or 
>reliance upon
>it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify 
>the sender. Any
>unauthorised disclosure of the information contained in this e-mail is
>strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please

[Christopher.Birch]

>One frustration in the choyte debate was the 
>"we-all-know-who-we're-talking-about" bit - we don't all know, 
>if we're 
>not of the tribe yet. If anyone cares to let me know, on- or off-list, 
>who is Kosher & who isn't, it would be most helpful, and I'll listen 
>with interest to the recordings.

Include me in copy too pleez.
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please

[Christopher.Birch]

 

>
So a whispering campaign?
>
>Is this really a good idea?

Frankly no, but what's the alternative? The illuminati and hoy polloi? And how 
did they get illuminated? (See above?)
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please

[Christopher.Birch]

>Used occasionally it's not too 
>intrusive.  I think the hard line taken by Clough, Adrian and 
>I is really an attempt to reign in some of the worst excesses 
>of open technique.

Nicely put, though I enjoy a good choyte now and then.

This is probably heresy to some, but I think it's arguable that Clough's was 
only one possible way of playing and the one most approved of at the time. 
there may be more. There is a difference between "bad" and "different" isn't 
there? As between "wrong" and "not to my taste" or "not in my tradition".

Django Rheinhardt was a great guitarist but should we proscribe the use of all 
four fingers? 

Heifetz and Grappelly were both great but very different  violinists and some 
people can even put up with Joe Venuti (true, he had technique).

How's about - to stay within the "folk" or "traditional" ambit - the fiddling 
of, say, Willie Taylor versus say, Martin Hayes? Same instrument, very 
different way of playing, both valid. 

What about singing? Does Pavarotti or Tom Waits do it "correctly" and the other 
not? Frankly I can't bear to listen to either of them. Give me Harry Cox or 
Freddy Mercury any day. Er, and Emma Kirkby. They all do it right. 

c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please

[Christopher.Birch]

I'd go along with all of this. Thanks, Richard, for putting it so eloquently.
c 

>-Original Message-
>From: Richard York [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:57 AM
>To: NSP Mailing List
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please
>
>Oh dear - that wasn't what I meant at all! Just an honest appeal for 
>information which seems to be common knowledge to many, but obscure to 
>me, and I gather, others too. Because I don't know who is 
>truly Outside 
>The Pale I might get the wrong idea, and start thinking wrong things 
>about absolute heroes/heroines.
>
>I really didn't mean to muddy the water, but I would just be 
>interested 
>to know who is considered a good role model, and, yes, who is 
>considered 
>not so, by those who have a lot more knowledge of the nsp's than I do, 
>so that at least I can make up my own mind.
> I don't promise to be orthodox, and I reserve the right to my own 
>musical judgement,  but it would be useful to know, and might 
>save a lot 
>of time, and perhaps money in buying CD's. I have to admit that when 
>people come up to me at events where I'm working & want to know about 
>playing particular early instruments, I have been known to quietly 
>suggest certain outlets which might be better treated with 
>caution, just 
>to save them wasting their money, but I'm not going to stand 
>up & shout 
>about it.
>My off-list reference was to save anyone having to Name Names 
>in public, 
>which would be embarrassing.
>
>I hope this isn't offending anyone, or getting into more 
>politics. Music 
>doesn't deserve that.
>
>Richard.
>
>
>So a whispering campaign?
>
>Is this really a good idea?
>
>Francis
>On 28 Aug 2008, at 10:14, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> One frustration in the choyte debate was the
>> "we-all-know-who-we're-talking-about" bit - we don't all know,
>> if we're
>> not of the tribe yet. If anyone cares to let me know, on- or 
>off-list,
>> who is Kosher & who isn't, it would be most helpful, and I'll listen
>> with interest to the recordings.
>
>Include me in copy too pleez.
>c
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: chooning

[Christopher.Birch]

>   Various "early" wind instruments exist with sliding gadgets for
>   altering the size of one or more holes on the fly so as to 
>play in tune
>   in different keys.

Even modern trumpeters will operate a slide with the fourth finger of the right 
hand to improve intonation.


>   BTW, if you are interested in temperament, you may like to 
>read Ross W.
>   Duffin's 2007 book "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony 
>(and Why You
>   Should Care)."

This title rings a bell, but I've not read it - yet.
Thanks for the reminder.
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please

[Christopher.Birch]

Good old martin. Even further up in my estimation!
c 

>-Original Message-
>From: Ian & Carol Bartlett (home account) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:58 AM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please
>
>Hi all
>
>Chris B wrote:-
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please
>This is probably heresy to some, but I think it's arguable that 
>Clough's was only one possible way of playing and the one most 
>approved of at the time. there may be more. There is a 
>difference between "bad" and "different" isn't there? As between 
>"wrong" and "not to my taste" or "not in my tradition".
>
>I'll add a quote from Martin Carthy
>
>"Tradition moves, tradition progresses and is not a pile of 
>stones."
>
>Yours in blissful choyting.
> Ian Bartlett
>
>P.S. Any luck in defining a folk instrument yet? Very quiet on 
>that front I note.
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please

[Christopher.Birch]

Er, not sure I agree with this one... 

>-Original Message-
>From: Richard York [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 12:22 PM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please
>
>
>Greetings!
>The celebrated Mr Carthy also said, "The only thing wrong you can do 
>with folk music is not to play it."
>:-)
>
>Richard.
>
>Hi all
>
>Chris B wrote:-
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please
>This is probably heresy to some, but I think it's arguable 
>that Clough's 
>was only one possible way of playing and the one most approved 
>of at the 
>time. there may be more. There is a difference between "bad" and 
>"different" isn't there? As between "wrong" and "not to my taste" or 
>"not in my tradition".
>
>I'll add a quote from Martin Carthy
>
>"Tradition moves, tradition progresses and is not a pile of stones."
>
>Yours in blissful choyting.
>Ian Bartlett
>
>P.S. Any luck in defining a folk instrument yet? Very quiet on that 
>front I note.
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please

[Christopher.Birch]

 
>>Of course, the traditional style needs to be mastered first to 
>>acquire the 
>>skill to "take it further" otherwise it tends to be "bad playing".
>
>Indeed.
>
>>(am I the only person in the world that likes buttered 
>>peas and hates 
>>holey halfpenny?).  :)
>
>For listening or playing? And of course you have to shell your 
>peas before you can butter them.
>
>>in effigy
>
>Hope springs eternal ;-)



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: tchuning

[Christopher.Birch]

   Ah, sorry, I had misread you to mean "if you try to use the B you've
   already got (from tuning for G major) against a drone in tune with the
   E you've already got (from the A) it won't work. Because, as you
   explain, the B would need to be sharper. It is strange, I find, that
   Mike Nelson explains his lower tuning for the bottom E as being for the
   sake of G major rather than for permitting E minor. I have my low E a
   bit flat relative to the top E and this permits me to play in E minor
   quite successfully (it was tuned this way by the maker).

   The middle E even tho it is tuned as a perfect fifth against the A
   drone does not sound too sharp against the G and D drones strangely
   enough.



   The interval C-E can sound a bit odd tho, at least to my lugs.

   chirs

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: tchuning

[Christopher.Birch]

if you 
>try to tune against E for those E minor tunes you will find 
>the middle B too sharp for the rest. Strangely enough the E 
>note does not seem to be too sharp for the D an A drones to 
>play against.

Shouldn't this read "middle B too flat" or "middle E too sharp"?
I assume it's a typo - or am I missing something?

chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] de gustibus non est disputandum

[Christopher.Birch]

>   -  "grace notes" (or "gracings"), i.e. twiddly bits that are
>   not necessary for articulation but are put in because the 
>composer or
>   player thinks they sound good.
>
>
>   Choyting on the NSP would fall into the latter category.


I'll drink to that! There might even be a few listeners who think they sound 
good too. Bad taste I suppose ;-) - as exhibited by, imho, the likes of 
Pavarotti and Kreisler, who I gather are quite popular in some circles. The 
"right" way to sing and play the violin, I believe. Hm 

chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2

[Christopher.Birch]

>Our 
>pipes alone, among other bagpipes, have the capability of producing  
>truly detached notes

In other words, they can do what the others can't. However they can also do 
what the others can, so they are potentially richer. Why make them, 
complementarily, as restricted as the others?

I think a useful analogy is provided by uilleann pipes, where you can choose to 
cut etc. or play closed style for musical reasons, not because of constraints.
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: George Atkinson recordings

[Christopher.Birch]

<  Has anyone had more luck than me?

No.
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Tonschönheit ist Nebensache

[Christopher.Birch]

< it's better to try to teach people how to think 
>musically than to
>   answer specific questions about what is correct or incorrect...

Indeed. A friend of mine once told me about a concert during his schooldays 
when he was sitting next to a kid who was apparently the nephew or something of 
a dreadful warbling soprano. Said nephew commented: "it may not sound very 
nice, but that's the right way to do it".

Three tenors anyone?

chirs  



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Fool, fearing to tread, aka Peacock marks

[Christopher.Birch]

"pegment sans appui"

I'm not familiar with the term. Is this what purists might call a 
"dégringolement"? 
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: John's Miles Davis Quote

[Christopher.Birch]

 
>As for choyting etc, it's the gold standard to learn to play 
>without it,
>then choose to include it later if you wish to.

So we could have foregone the entire debate then? 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Mistakes in public perfomance, Miles Davis etc

[Christopher.Birch]

"Clarinet-like"? What sort of reed was he using? Most I've heard sound more 
oboe-like, which imho is a Good Thing.
chirs 

>-Original Message-
>From: Francis Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 5:05 PM
>To: Ormston, Chris
>Cc: NSP Mailing List
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Mistakes in public perfomance, Miles Davis etc
>
>
>On 1 Oct 2008, at 14:46, Ormston, Chris wrote:
>
>> Francis sent me an old clip from the Times, reviewing a Clough  
>> performance in London.  I don't have it to hand, but the reviewer  
>> commented on Tom's absorption in his music, and his sense of  
>> phrasing - can you elighten us, Francis?
>
>Hi Chris and others,
>
>Here's the notice about the Tom Clough performance given as part of a  
>concert of Northumbrian music in London. from The Times of 07.03.28.  
>The comments are nice (if a little patronising) and very relevant to  
>the present discussions.
>
>Francis (with thanks to Maureen Davison for typing the text)
>
>The one instrumental performance in this engaging programme, filled  
>with too many good things for all to be noticed separately, was a  
>complete novelty for a London audience, and the London audience was a  
>complete novelty for the performer. Mr. Tom Clough is a member of a  
>family who have been performers on small Northumbrian pipes for  
>generations, and he played a number of tunes with the variations on  
>them which belonged to his family tradition. The Northumbrian pipes,  
>with their clarinet-like quality of tone, sound more civilized in the  
>concert room than the more famous Scottish pipes. Mr. Clough, who's  
>normal working day begins at 3am by cycling five miles to the mine at  
>which he is employed, faced his audience composedly, seemed as  
>completely absorbed in his music as Senor Casals, and his 
>phrasing had  
>something of the quiet mastery of Casals. He has a large repertory,  
>learnt entirely without notes, (though we understand that he has  
>learned enough of notation to be able to write out some of his 
>tunes),  
>and his playing was absorbingly interesting as it evidently was to  
>himself.
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Piping under threat!

[Christopher.Birch]

>This made me wonder what 'Pan-Celtic "syncopated jiggery"' is, 
>and what the 
>nature of the threat.

Sounds more like fun than a threat in the admittedly unlikely event of you 
asking me 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Piping under threat!

[Christopher.Birch]

Good points. "When love breaks down" by Prefab Sprout has already been recorded 
by Her Who Shall Not Be Named, has it not?
Not to mention "Stranger on the shore" by, er, someone else.

>Sax had only ever been used to play orchestral music, it's 
>original purpose 
>as a crossover between brass and woodwind.

"band" music I hope. The sax is an example, imho, of an instrument that works 
best in styles that had not even been conceived of when it was invented - or to 
put it another way, it is indispensible in certain kinds of music and unusable 
in most.

Another case in point is the harmonica. And who is correct: the "mouthie" 
player or the "blues harp" player? I know which I prefer, even if they can't 
even manage to play in the "correct" key. 

And what about guitars? The correct way is to pluck them with one hand (with or 
without a plectrum) and finger them with the other, isn't it? Like Segovia and 
Jimi Hendrix (though the latter held his the wrong way round and downside up, 
the dolt ;-)).

So much for Adam Fulara, Stanley Jordan, Jeff Healy, Robert Johnson etc. 
They've all got it wrong...

And as for this hammer on / pull off business, it's the guitar equivalent of 
choyting, isn't it? Easier than articulating each note separately. so watch out 
Mr Knopfler. 

(runs for cover)

chirs

>
>Tim RollsOriginal Message - 
>From: "Robert Greef" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:22 AM
>Subject: [NSP] Piping under threat!
>
>
>>I saw the post from Chris Ormston:
>>
>>>I'm seriously concerned that the traditional
>> > way of playing our instrument will be swept away in a wave of
>>> Pan-Celtic "syncopated jiggery"
>>
>> This made me wonder what 'Pan-Celtic "syncopated jiggery"' 
>is, and what 
>> the
>> nature of the threat.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Robert Greef
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>---
>-
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1702 - Release 
>Date: 10/1/2008 
>9:05 AM
>
>
>

[NSP] Re: Threat replies are in

[Christopher.Birch]

Nice one, Robert!

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Correct grade of oi l?

[Christopher.Birch]

I use neatsfoot and have had no problems.
c 

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 9:54 AM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Correct grade of oi l?
>
>
>   Hi
>
>  Being very new to  piping I get a bit confused about the 
>right type
>   of oil for the pipes .Some say neatsfoot oil some say 
>paraffin oil some
>   say olive oil, I am sure someone recommends Castrol GTX ! 
>Can someone
>   enlighten me on the reasons for one type of oil over the 
>other? Or is
>   it just tradition? I have always used .. it must be the 
>best, or is
>   there some science behind the choices?
>
>   Regards Graham
>
>
>   Graham Wright
>
>   Faculty of Health & Medical Sciences
>
>   University of Surrey
>
>   Guildford
>
>   Surrey GU2 7XH
>
>   TEL:01483682613
>
>
>   --
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: An ear for drone music

[Christopher.Birch]

Yes, pipes sound best when the intervals between the drones and the chanter are 
as close to acoustically pure as possible.
I am mainly a string player and believe that the viol and violin families also 
sound best when the intervals are pure.
Sadly, so much "classical" music education is centred on the piano (the 
ubiquitous accompaniment) that even many very skilled violinists etc. veer 
towards equal temperament, which to my ears makes the thirds in particular 
sound horrible.
And there is the notorious chord - open G, first finger E-b, open e - which is 
impossible to make sound in tune unless you flatten the first finger for the E 
and sharpen it for the b. The larger-than-pure fifth is not sounded as such (or 
only fleetingly) so the discrepancy is negligible compared with the excessively 
wide major sixth and perfect fourth that you would get with a pure and constant 
E-b.

Spose I'm a bit off topic here.

chirs  

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 7:18 PM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] An ear for drone music
>
>
>   I've observed that pipers (NSP, BP, GHP, whatever) who come from a
>   classical background have a "blind spot" in their hearing 
>when it comes
>   to drone music.  I don't know if my observation is correct, and
>   recognize its potential for appearing inflammatory or 
>prejudicial.  I
>   certainly don't mean offense.  I do think that growing up playing a
>   drone instrument does allow the piper to hear certain 
>subtleties that
>   someone who grew up with a tempered scale and classical or even Rock
>   and Roll chordal progressions might not be able to hear.  
>People with
>   years of music theory and academic expertise in music have tried to
>   convince me that such and such doesn't work, or that my 
>pipes are "out
>   of tune".  I spent a lot of time and energy trying to correct the
>   problem, because we all know musicians with lots of schooling and
>   degrees know more than I do, a mere piper.  But my gut and 
>my ear tell
>   me, they just don't hear the harmonics or the matching of 
>the "out of
>   tune" notes with the drones.  It could be that I simply 
>like the play
>   between the wah-wah and the perfectly synched that is part 
>and parcel
>   of drone music, and they don't.
>   What are your considered thoughts on the matter, please, my esteemed
>   colleagues?
>   John --
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Oil and health

[Christopher.Birch]

>The top B was still dodgy 70+ years after the original recording!!!

Not to mention the top A, particularly at 2.00 and 2.07.
Great stuff though
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: NSP and pop music

[Christopher.Birch]

I believe Chris Ormston plays on a Peter Gabriel album, but I haven't chased it 
up yet.
An NSP player is credited on Mike Oldfield's Ommadawn, but apparently didn't 
actually appear on the album because his reed broke and some UP player, er, 
played instead (information from Chris O).
c 

>-Original Message-
>From: Mike Sharp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:02 PM
>To: Steve Bliven
>Cc: NSP Mailing List
>Subject: [NSP] Re: NSP and pop music
>
>
>   Hi Steve,
>   when is doubt, ask wikipedia:
>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nontraditional_bagpipe_usage
>   Among other notable uses mentioned on wikipedia:
> * [1]Sting used Northumbrian smallpipes, played by [2]Kathryn
>   Tickell, on his hit song "Fields Of Gold," from his 1993 album
>   [3]Ten Summoner's Tales
>
>   --Mike
>   Sharp Bagpipes
>   Reeding & fettling NSPs and SSPs
> __
>
>   From: Steve Bliven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   To: List - NSP 
>   Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 11:40:05 AM
>   Subject: [NSP] NSP and pop music
> Greetings -
> Got a call today from the Museum of Fine Art in Boston 
>where they are
> teaching a course on the use of traditional instruments 
>in pop music.
> They were specifically looking for examples where 
>bagpipes were used
>   in
> widely recognized pop songs.  I could recall some instances where
>   Loud
> Highland Bagpipes and Uilleann pipes were involved but nothing
>   off-hand
> for NSP (other than Ryofu and let's not go there again.).
> Appreciate any input related to NSP - and any other types while
>   you're
> at it.
> Best wishes.
> Steve  --
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>   --
>
>References
>
>   1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_%28musician%29
>   2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Tickell
>   3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Summoner%27s_Tales
>   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>

[NSP] Re: Ranting and raving

[Christopher.Birch]

>>>The start of the rant beat is the opposite of trochhee and 
>more iambic
>>>with two extra strong beats following the iambic te-tum. i.e.
>te->>tum,tum,tum.
>
>Err... Matt's illustration ("Nuts and raisins") is definitely 
>two trochees.
>

Yes, confusing, isn't it?
Long live conventional notation.
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Ranting and raving

[Christopher.Birch]

So an iamb followed by a spondee? Let's just stick to the ever clear dots eh?
c  

>-Original Message-
>From: rosspi...@aol.com [mailto:rosspi...@aol.com] 
>Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 6:47 PM
>To: i...@gretton-willems.com
>Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Ranting and raving
>
>The start of the rant beat is the opposite of trochhee and 
>more iambic with two extra strong beats following the iambic 
>te-tum. i.e. te-tum,tum,tum.
>
>
>CR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>
>From: Paul Gretton 
>
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>
>Sent: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:25
>
>Subject: [NSP] Ranting and raving
>
>
>
>
>
>   Matt wrote: >>>For the Rant rhythm, how 
>about   >>>Nuts-and-Rais-ins   
where the heavier stress is on -Rais- So - 
>just to formalise (confuse?) matters -- two trochees (i.e. a   
>  ditrochee), with the second  ictus being stronger than the 
>first? Cheers, Paul Gretton -- 
> To get on or off this list see list information at  
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>___
>_
>AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst 
>on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with 
>unlimited storage today.
>
>--
>

[NSP] Re: Rants and reels

[Christopher.Birch]

 I can't think of a single word that will 
>do but no doubt some one will.

Untunable? Unbareable?
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum

[Christopher.Birch]

< Could he be left handed or is the print 
>backwards, I wonder.


In fact the whole thing is left-handed so either of the above explanations are 
possible.
More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in Carbisdale 
Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper has his right hand 
on the top end of the chanter and left on the bottom IIRR.
chirs
N���讇߶��+-�祊�b��+��b�v���i��0��j�f��ayۿ��?��^i٢���u�a�i

[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

[Christopher.Birch]

>Even more
>   disorientating was playing with a German violinist who had had an
>   accident that ruined his right hand; he re-taught himself to play
>   "left-handed".


A minor quibble, but do you mean "ruined his *left* hand"? I can imagine bowing 
with an injured right hand as long as the wrist, elbow and shoulder were still 
ok, but doing the job normally assigned to the left hand with an injured right 
sounds impossible.

I know a left-handed cellist who tried to learn "the right way round" but found 
it much easier when she reversed everything. This suggests that, for some 
people at least, one way is more natural than the other at the neurological 
level.

I also know a brilliant left-handed guitarist who plays right-handed (ditto 
violinist), so it's probably all down to the individual.   

chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

[Christopher.Birch]

It appears to have disoriented the author of this article too:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Goebel-Reinhard.htm

"After unexplained paralysis struck his right hand, Goebel abandoned his career 
as a solo violinist, although he continued to play with his group, bowing the 
violin with his left hand."

Probably producing some nice drones, so it's not that far off topic ;-)
chirs

 

>-Original Message-
>From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] 
>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:01 PM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
>
>
>
-Original Message-
From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] 
Sent: 15 January 2009 11:51
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
>
Oops! Yes, I do mean that he ruined his **right** hand. 
>
>DAMMIT! NO, I DON'T that...@#*$%#!!
>
>I mean he ruined his LEFT hand, the one he fingered the strings with.
>
>You can see how disorienting all this is!  :-)
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

[Christopher.Birch]

I gather the unexplanation of the Goebel's paralysis was carpal tunnel 
syndrome.  
c

>-Original Message-
>From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] 
>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:01 PM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
>
>
>
-Original Message-
From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] 
Sent: 15 January 2009 11:51
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
>
Oops! Yes, I do mean that he ruined his **right** hand. 
>
>DAMMIT! NO, I DON'T that...@#*$%#!!
>
>I mean he ruined his LEFT hand, the one he fingered the strings with.
>
>You can see how disorienting all this is!  :-)
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: first 30 tunes

[Christopher.Birch]

>He quotes the late Tom Anderson of 
>Shetland who 'rightly' said 'Never try to learn a tune you don't 
>already know'.

I think what he probably meant is "don't try to play a tune on the fiddle (or 
any other instrument) unless you've already got a good idea in your head of how 
it goes". In other words, don't rely on the instrument to teach you the music! 
I gather certain classical players, such as Anne-Sophie Mutter, will learn a 
new concerto by heart (including the orchestral parts) before touching the 
violin. Would that we all had such discipline!

>as there was no one alive 
>who had those old tunes in their repertoire that they had 
>learnt from a 
>previous generation. This narrow view in my mind would prevent any 
>advantage to be taken from Matt's recent publication of the 1777 
>Vicker's MS.

This is a very serious point that the "anti-written-music" faction are ignoring 
at their peril - or at least at the peril of the tradition that they profess to 
support. If a tune is not passed down orally and not written down either it's 
vot in my cauntry ve call "lost".

>as the style of playing from the various players would be imprinted on 
>learners which could be a bad thing in some ways as suggesting that 
>this was the 'right' way to play the tunes.

Another excellent point.

>Maybe a neutral instrument 
>should be used to just demonstrate the way the tune may be played.

Far be it from me so say anything in favour of midi files, but they could be 
useful here. No one with an ounce of musicality would be tempted to imitate 
them stylistically.

All the best!
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: re written music

[Christopher.Birch]

>   With regard to the Tom Anderson quote, "Never try to learn 
>a tune you
>   don't already know", as posted by Christopher Birch,

Just for the record, I was referring to a previous posting by Colin Ross, in 
which he wrote:

"It has already attracted criticism from one of our pipers who is 
'deeply disappointed' that the CD is not with the book as originally 
planned and who thinks that it will do real damage to what is 
essentially an oral tradition. He quotes the late Tom Anderson of 
Shetland who 'rightly' said 'Never try to learn a tune you don't 
already know'."

c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Confused!

[Christopher.Birch]

>
>A tune is *learnt* aurally.


If it's *taught* by, for example, lilting, the teacher would be doing it orally.
I can't imagine what else you had in mind ... ;-)



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Chanter hole spacings

[Christopher.Birch]

>"Viola for sale - recently tuned."


How did they know? http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: stiff fingers and aging

[Christopher.Birch]

I think unless one has specific health problems finger agility and flexibility 
can go on improving for a long time providing one practices every day. I'm 59 
and mainly a (classical) violin/violist. Over the past few months I've been 
working on some knuckle-breaking exercises recommended by Ruggiero Ricci  with 
the result that I can now manage stretches on the viola that I once thought 
impossible on the violin.

Speed depends on rhythmic accuracy. If you tend to stumble when "trying" to 
play something fast when practicing, stop trying and play it rhythmically at a 
speed you can manage. Then you can go up one crack on the metronome each 
day/week until you get to a stumbling speed again. This will probably be faster 
than the previous stumbling speed, so go back a few notches and continue to 
increase gradually. Repeat as necessary.

In the words of Kató Havas "don't try. Do!"

In performance of course, you just have to do your best to keep up with 
everyone else.
Hth
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Northumbrian smallpipe teacher in Brussels, Belgium?

[Christopher.Birch]

 and it looks like Christopher Birch who 
>is on this list may be closest to you in Luxemburg.


Thanks for the plug, but I'm a dabbler more than a teacher ;-) I could impart 
the basics though.
There's also David Singleton - also in Luxembourg - who helped me a great deal 
with his fettling skills in the early days.
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: stiff fingers and aging

[Christopher.Birch]

>I was very strict with myself about 
>using the tips
>   of my fingers for NSP, having read the phrase "little pistons" to
>   describe proper NSP technique.

Similarly you often see "correct" violin technique described as playing on the 
tips, and the phrase "little hammers" is used. Ruggiero Ricci, to whom I 
referred in my previous posting, recommends playing on the pads. He also 
recommends supporting the instrument on the wrist in good old folk/gypsy 
fashion and extending back and forth from what looks to a conventional modern 
player like third or fourth position. He got the ideas from a certain Paganini.


>   Someone wrote "speed comes from rhythm" but I think it's 
>the other way
>   around, although it's a chicken and the egg question.  
>Often rhythm is
>   sacrificed for speed.


I wrote "Speed depends on rhythmic accuracy. If you tend to stumble when 
"trying" to play something fast when practicing, stop trying and play it 
rhythmically at a speed you can manage."

Of course there are those who play flurries of notes that are all correct and 
in the right order but with no rhythmic sense. In my view this doesn't count. 
You are admittedly less likely to come up against a stumbling point if you rush 
and slow down whenever you feel like, but such rhythmic variations are purely 
for reasons of technique or lack of it (and why string sections in amateur 
orchestras often sound like a swarm of bees). You need to be able to play 
metronomically precise rhythms before any (deliberate) departures can acquire 
the status of musical expression rather than just reflecting sloppy technique. 

I wish I had come to the above conclusions very much earlier in life. Then my 
technique and speed would be far better than they are in reality - but they are 
still improving slowly as I approach the dreaded seventh decade.

Btw, experience tells me that practically all types of music from traditional 
to folk to country to classical to rock etc. have more in common than it might 
seem on the surface - especially when it comes to developing your chops.

Rule 1: get a metronome.
Rule 2: use it. 
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Canny Shepherd Laddies o' the Hills... back to the music

[Christopher.Birch]

>Wonderful!
>
>Which leads me to offer this one
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q28ikQaPFK4
>OK, it's fiddle-orientated rather than either sheep or smallpipes, but 
>don't you think there's scope here for a new category in 
>piping contests?
>Or perhaps simply a nice variant on the advice to practise 
>with a metronome.



Love it! Why didn't I think of that?
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Newcastle Journal Article

[Christopher.Birch]

>> I have no opinion whatsoever on the truth of the assertions made in  
>> this recent posting.
>> However, I believe it is indecent for a child to be publically  
>> criticised in this forum.
>
>
>I agree.


So do I, particularly as it is probably not the kid's fault that she has a 
pushy mother, and she may well look back on her present bumptious attitude with 
embarrassment or worse in time to come.
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Re:

[Christopher.Birch]

< I don't think it fair to call any style of playing any
>   instrument 'incorrect' simply because it does not adhere rigidly to
>   tradition.

Here we go again!

FWIW:
I a) value the tradition (and the baroque) and b) agree wholeheartedly with the 
above statement.

I play various instruments in various styles. Why should NSP be the only 
instrument restricted to a single style?

Kreisler any one?
Or Stuff Smith?
Or Andrew Manze?
Didier Lockwood?
Gatemouth?
Grappelly?
Itzhak Perlman?
Willie Taylor?

I wish I knew who was playing properly...

chirs





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Re:

[Christopher.Birch]

> Do you think math teachers are unfair for calling answers  
>"wrong"?
>
>

I'm sorry, but this is frankly silly. Proving things write or rongue is what 
maths is about. 

Something may be "wrong" when playing a given style music (like playing jazz as 
if it was classical and vice versa) but describing a style as "wrong in itself" 
can only be regarded as narrow-mindedness - can't it?
c 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Re:

[Christopher.Birch]

David was just being succinct. Mercifully, not everyone witters on at the 
length of, inter alia, yours truly ;-)

The pipes too have undergone many developments from open-ended nine notes to 
closed-ended with up to two+ chromatic octaves and seventeen keys. Closed 
fingering was but one of them.
c

>-Original Message-
>From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] 
>Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:30 AM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Re:
>
>David Baker wrote:
>
>>>Had it not been for certain groups of musicians breaking the rules
>>>because what resulted sounded good to them, the only style of trumpet
>>>playing would be baroque, and jazz would not exist (to give but one
>>>example).
>
>Hmmm...that is a very interesting take on the history of 
>music, ignoring
>entirely the invention of valves (which allowed the trumpet to 
>play in any
>key and to play diatonically and chromatically in the low and middle
>registers for the first time); the end of the trumpet guild system; the
>development of the brass band; the rise of mass production through
>industrialisation (which made instruments much cheaper); the 
>influence of
>African music in New Orleans; and the overall gigantic changes 
>that took
>place in Western music between the baroque period and the rise 
>of jazz. Oh
>yes, and also the fact that jazz existed long before jazzers 
>started to use
>the trumpet (Armstrong started on the cornet, for example). 
>I'm afraid it
>wasn't all just a matter of some cool dudes audaciously 
>deciding to "break
>the rules".
>
>But don't let me rigidly cramp your musicological style!
>
>
>>>I don't think it fair to call any style of playing any instrument
>>>'incorrect' simply because it does not adhere rigidly to tradition
>...
>>>I would hope the NSP community was receptive to the efforts of young
>>>players (I hope at 22 I can still call myself one) 
>expressing themselves
>>>through their chosen instrument and working hard in order to 
>do so. If
>>>not, this 'tradition' is indeed in real danger of dying out.
>
>The trouble, though, is that traditions can get hijacked in a 
>way that takes
>them far away from the essential nature of the music, so that someone's
>let-it-all-hang-out-baby self-expression comes to dominate. 
>And with modern
>media, public funding, and publicity, the new style then takes 
>over and the
>traditional one is forgotten.
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mister Nasty (using Paul Gretton's computer)
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley

[Christopher.Birch]

I think this very eloquently says it all - about piping, about music in 
general, and about life as a whole.
I hope my wife is doing rumbled thumps again for lunch. Gudden appetit.
chirs 

>-Original Message-
>From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] 
>Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:10 AM
>To: 'Rick Damon'; 'Dartmouth NPS'; Chris Ormston
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley
>
>
>
>   Come on Chris, you know fine well who is responsible a and so do the
>   others on this list. Sounding off at bairns themselves 
>certainly wonat
>   bring about a process of reflection and correction. As for your
>   comments re the 4^th year piping student, it should be made 
>clear that
>   the only "main study" piping student to have come through the Degree
>   Course so far has just entered their 4^th year. I am their tutor and
>   they certainly know where to put the beat on a jig. Not 
>only that, they
>   are aware that a bar of 6 quavers would be played in 5 
>different time
>   values in the north Northumbrian Tradition. Students come on to the
>   course from a wide variety of backgrounds and some are encouraged to
>   take up a new second instrument such as the pipes as a minor part of
>   their studies. You were obviously brought in to help with 
>this process
>   and Iam sure you taught them brilliantly so that by the end of the
>   course they did know where the beat lay in a jig!
>
>   The Sage Gateshead, like all huge organisations, is far from perfect
>   but intemperate outbursts wonat persuade the people at the top to
>   change things. I am quietly arguing the case to bring a 
>more consistent
>   approach to the piping classes so the for the first time in 
>4 years we
>   can guarantee some continuity for Caedmon participants.
>
>   As for enjoying mediocrity Iam afraid thatas exactly what I 
>do. I love
>   everyday attainable and sustainable things. I can only take stunning
>   amazing things in small doses and this goes for music too. 
>The sound of
>   an everyday sort of player like Carolyn Dickson or Jimmy 
>Little when I
>   first moved to Alnwick filled me with warmth and an 
>appreciation that
>   there certainly was music beyond aI saw my Love Come 
>Passing by Mea a
>   still my favourite piece of all time but only a tiny part 
>of what our
>   tradition has to offer. When Joe and Hannah Hutton first 
>came round for
>   a music night I played that (or another Peacock tune) and 
>Hannah just
>   said very quietly, aI divvent [sic] like these pippy [sic] tunes you
>   play Anthonya. I understood what she meant and took no 
>offence. It is
>   not a viable stance to insist that the only apropera way to play the
>   pipes is the tight closed style of the Cloughs. A folk tradition, by
>   definition, must be accessible to the vast majority of 
>players and not
>   the preserve of the extremely talented. I enjoy our music because at
>   its roots it has a sharing communal quality to it that the virtuoso
>   stuff doesnat have. I remember going to a Manitas de Plata 
>concert in
>   the 60s with a student who was learning classical guitar. 
>The playing
>   was exciting, truly mind-boggling but for me it palled 
>after 20 minutes
>   or so. The next day I asked him what he thought of it. He said he
>   thought it was like aspitting on a sixpence at twenty 
>yardsa; extremely
>   clever and totally amazing but not very heart-warming or deeply
>   refreshing. It is not mediocrity to see the aspitting on a 
>sixpence at
>   twenty yardsa aspect in some of the virtuoso material. To 
>give a food
>   analogy, Macdonaldas is appalling and Michelin Star places 
>are beyond
>   me. Just let me have good ordinary food a high quality mince and
>   vegetables and decent bread etc. Iad be surprised to find 
>Iam alone in
>   enjoying these simple pleasures on a daily basis. As for 
>the odd posh
>   meal, I love them too but not as my staple diet a not 
>sustainable for
>   us ordinary folk!
>
>   As aye
>
>   Anthony
>   --- On Tue, 14/4/09, Chris Ormston  wrote:
>
> From: Chris Ormston 
> Subject: [NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley
> To: "'Anthony Robb'" , "'Rick Damon'"
> , "'Dartmouth NPS'" 
>
> Date: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009, 12:18 AM
>
>   "Yes, the clip sounded poor and yes, the article itself was
>  unfortunate but Jessica isn't responsible."
>   Then who is responsible? And why doesn't the Sage promote proper
>   piping?  I
>   was asked to provide some piping tuition for a 4th year 
>piping student
>   who
>   didn't know where the beat should sit in a jig. Unacceptable for a
>   degree
>   course.  The Sage is about "Jobs for the Boys" and it stinks! They
>   pretend
>   to be about participation, but ultimately it's all about producing
>   middle-brow pap for the coach party market to promote the 
>incumbents of
>   senior positions there! I've already had a yellow card tonight from
>   Wayne,
>   for something posted from another with the same IP address. I'll go
>   before
>

[NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley

[Christopher.Birch]

< She mentioned the Kathryn Tickell connection at
>   our first lesson just before Christmas 2008 and when I quizzed her
>   further she admited she had had 1 lesson from her.


Good to know that KT is not "responsible" either. It would not be the first 
time in this forum that the lady has been directly and indirectly knocked. IMHO 
the bottom line with KT is that she is building on the tradition (and 
magnificently) rather than either simply acting as its curator (at best) or 
falsifying it (at worst). Like it or dislike it, but don't dismiss it. The 
baroque trumpet versus jazz etc. argument is relevant here too.

I bet there were traditionalists centuries back who were strongly opposed to 
falsifying the intrinsic nature of the pipes by closing the end of the chanter 
and adopting exclusively closed fingering!

Hails of derisive laughter, Bruce!

chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[Christopher.Birch]

 

>If a person ignores this 
>completely from
>   the outset then the product may not be wrong but it is certainly
>   misguided. Let pipers take the music in any direction they 
>wish but to
>   have any connection with Northumbrian piping as such they must spend
>   time studying the starting point thoroughly before setting 
>off on their
>   journey.


I wholeheartedly degree with this formulation.

I think the problem is that people are using "style" and "technique" 
interchangeably. The instruments I know most about and have taught a bit are 
the bowed strings (mainly viola). In teaching I would stress various basic 
techniques (such as drawing a steady bow and observing the point of content, 
the pressure and the speed, for example) on-the-string staccato with the bow, 
off-the-string staccato, "correct shifting" (left thumb and forearm à la 
trombone - the usual modern correct classical technique) as well as "correct" 
glissando technique (use your left thumb as a reference point by the heel of 
the neck and slide the fingers up and down -  technique advocated by Ruggiero 
Ricci q.v. and based on his exploration of Paganini, N.B. whose fingering was 
unconventional. Swarbrick also did it, but i think he only used first and third 
position) and a whole range of other aspects - irrespective of what kind of 
music they intended to play.

I would also encourage pupils to play different "styles" of music irrespective 
of what they intended to concentrate on. Bach specialists should also study 
Paganini and folk fiddling, for example.

Of course "staccato technique" is essential for gaining control of the NSP as 
an instrument but once you've got it I don't think it's a very musical idea to 
just go around demonstrating one's staccato technique like opera singers their 
brute power and vibrato.

And of course, style and technique inevitably overlap.
   

>   If people dont see the point in doing this then chosing to
>   play an out and out traditional instrument seems a bit daft in the
>   first place.
>


This is also very true.

On a personal note, I am a very humble musician when it comes to practical 
skills (mainly a mid-level hard-practicing semi-pro classical hack, but with 
experience in everything from traditional to progrock) but since I was an adult 
beginner (a long time ago) and am rather obsessive about music (the nearest 
thing I have to a religion!), I think I tend to reflect on and analyse all the 
various aspects to a possibly unusual (or excessive) degree. I also flatter 
myself by thinking that some of my conclusions may have a certain validity.

So...
Apologies to anyone to whom my assertiveness - born of enthusiam - may ever 
have come over as bumptiousness.

c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley

[Christopher.Birch]

Not only Manitas da Plata!!!
c 

>-Original Message-
>From: Helen Capes [mailto:helen.ca...@paradise.net.nz] 
>Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:22 PM
>To: 'Dartmouth NPS'
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley
>
>I went to that Manitas de Plata concert too!
>I think its a great example of a good theory Anthony. I totally agree.
>Cheers
>Helen
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Style

[Christopher.Birch]

>I think you need to listen to more (good) opera singers, mate!


Maybe. Who would you suggest?
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley

[Christopher.Birch]

> the clip sounded poor and yes, the article itself was
>   unfortunate but Jessica isn't responsible. 

So...

I finally got round to listening to it, and it was far far better than I had 
been led to expect. How were today's (and yesteryear's) big names playing when 
they were 14? Are there any recordings to compare?

After all, she's only a poor kid with a bumptious mother (and an undeniable 
amount of talent) and consequently a potential for inherited bumptiousness and 
psychological problems in her future. 

"It's time to cut her some slack. What she needs most at the moment is our 
understanding and support."
Exactly!

The article was diabolical, but any article I've ever read about a subject or 
event that I had any real knowledge of has invariably been paddling up the 
wrong spout with a birch tree. So we can hardly even blame the mother or KT for 
that.

chirs 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[Christopher.Birch]

>Hooray. At last, something I can agree with publicly. I'm trying to 
>call it detached fingering (or tenuto for the technically minded), 
>rather than staccato, but that's a minor detail.
>

Right! And remember "staccato" does not mean "short". It means 
"separated". "Detached/detaché" on the violin just means separate bows (with no 
gap in the sound).

And of course I meant "off-the-string s p i c c a t o". So many conductors have 
the habit of saying "staccato" when spicc is really what they want that it's 
catching. And they also have a tendency to say "legato" when they mean "broad 
detached" (legato means slurring more than one note in a single bow stroke).
 
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: tyles

[Christopher.Birch]

Good points, both Stephen and Paul.

Interesting point about Tchaikovski: the stringing of the violin in his day 
would have been much closer to what is nowadays regarded as "baroque" (all gut 
except a simply wound g). Modern synthetic (e.g. obligato), steel (e.g. prim) 
or even sophisticatedly wound gut (e.g. eudoxa, oliv) do not remotely resemble 
the strings that would have been available in the 19th century. This is of 
course not the place to get into a discussion about "modern" or "fake" baroque 
(according to some, closer in fact to 19th century stringing) and "real" 
baroque. 

chirs 

>-Original Message-
>From: STEPHEN DOUGLASS [mailto:us...@comcast.net] 
>Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:26 PM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: tyles
>
>
>
>Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: STEPHEN DOUGLASS 
>> Date: April 14, 2009 4:25:05 PM EDT
>> To: Paul Gretton 
>> Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Re:Styles
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> In the 1926 recording of Elgar's Enigma by the Royal Albert Hall
>> Orchestra ,conducted by the composer himself, there is audible
>> sliding (portamento) on the strings.
>>
>> In Simon Rattles recording in 1993 with the City Of Birmingham
>> Symphony Orchestra the portamento is gone(or negligible). Many
>> critics favour this version.
>>
>> By the mid 1930's, after Elgar's death, orchestras were moving away
>> from that style. It would be unusual now, to hear an orchestra play
>> with the same amount of slide.
>>
>> That would suggest a change of style in the same, genre, context
>> and repertoire? and also asks questions about sticking to composers
>> intentions.
>>
>> There may be a return to the previous style, but at the time the
>> progression would have been considered innovative.
>>
>> Steve Douglass
>>
>>
>> On Apr 14, 2009, at 8:26 AM, Paul Gretton wrote:
>>
>>> Chirs wrote:
>>>
> Why should NSP be the only instrument restricted to a 
>single style?
>>>
>>> The "should" is not a matter of authoritarian compulsion or 
>hidebound
>>> conservatism but of appropriateness. Unlike the violin, the NSP
>>> has until
>>> very recently been associated with a very specific repertoire, the
>>> core of
>>> which is bound up with the structure of the instrument -- a sort of
>>> chicken/egg situation. As I said in reply to David, the problem
>>> with wild
>>> do-your-own-thing innovation is that the innovative style takes
>>> over and the
>>> traditional style is then lost.
>>>
> Kreisler any one?
> Or Stuff Smith?
> Or Andrew Manze?
> Didier Lockwood?
> Gatemouth?
> Grappelly?
> Itzhak Perlman?
> Willie Taylor?
>>>
> I wish I knew who was playing properly...
>>>
>>> It's confusing to speak of "style" here. All those people play the
>>> violin
>>> but they play different ***repertoires*** without overlap between
>>> them (with
>>> a couple of exceptions). Those repertoires require a certain "style
>>> bandwidth" if they are to be true to the nature of the music.
>>>
>>> I doubt if Manze would tackle the Tchaikovsky concerto on his
>>> baroque violin
>>> and in baroque style. Perlman, however, would probalby tackle a
>>> Handel or
>>> Corelli sonata, with IMHO dire results that distort the nature of
>>> the music.
>>>
>>> Or -- since you're about to become an opera buff :-) --  I would
>>> prefer to
>>> hear Isolde sung by Flagstad or Nilsson rather than by Emma
>>> Kirkby! (and
>>> vice versa for Rameau or Lully)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Paul Gretton
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu
>>> [mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu]
>>>
>>> Sent: 14 April 2009 10:51
>>> To: davidthba...@googlemail.com; ch...@chrisormston.com
>>> Cc: rosspi...@aol.com; lisaridley6...@hotmail.com;
>>> nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> Subject: [NSP] Re: Re:
>>>
>>> < I don't think it fair to call any style of playing any
   instrument 'incorrect' simply because it does not adhere
 rigidly to
   tradition.
>>>
>>> Here we go again!
>>>
>>> FWIW:
>>> I a) value the tradition (and the baroque) and b) agree
>>> wholeheartedly with
>>> the above statement.
>>>
>>> I play various instruments in various styles. Why should NSP be
>>> the only
>>> instrument restricted to a single style?
>>>
>>> Kreisler any one?
>>> Or Stuff Smith?
>>> Or Andrew Manze?
>>> Didier Lockwood?
>>> Gatemouth?
>>> Grappelly?
>>> Itzhak Perlman?
>>> Willie Taylor?
>>>
>>> I wish I knew who was playing properly...
>>>
>>> chirs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>--
>

[NSP] Re: Re:

[Christopher.Birch]

Greets Rick et al.

>We're talking about  
>something more simple than that, just learning to control the  
>instrument.

Of course, and there's no better way than strict slow tempo staccatissimo. But 
what you do in your practice is of necessity, I think, exaggerated. 

playing than playing sloppily?

No, but I do think while being able to play, for example the accordion, in a 
very strict and clipped way a la Jimmy Shand is probably essential for a solid 
technique (I don't play accordion) you don't necessarily have to play that way 
in performance. A certain freedom and flexibility is not necessarily "sloppy". 
Where would jazz be without a studied blowsiness? (if that's how you spell it).

Phew, managed to keep it brief and non-self-regarding this time ;-)

To go back to what triggered all this in the first place this time round, I 
think we should be more worried about the psychological fate of the victims of 
bumptious parenting (JL is likely to get herself disliked) than of the fate of 
piping (which appears to be alive and well, thanks to both the die-hard 
traditionalists and the "innovative" for want of a better word. Peaceful 
co-existence would be nice.)

And I would add my here here / hear hear / ere ere to Anita's.

chirs  



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley etc.etc.

[Christopher.Birch]

Hear hear!
c 

>-Original Message-
>From: pipe...@tiscali.co.uk [mailto:pipe...@tiscali.co.uk] 
>Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:02 PM
>To: Dartmouth NPS
>Subject: [NSP] Lisa Ridley etc.etc.
>
>Dear All,
>
>As a Tiscali customer I have had no access to the forum for over a 
>week so imagine my amazement to find 93 e-mails waiting and that the 
>world of NSP has gone suddenly mad.
>
>The mails relating to youngsters and "pushy parents" reminds me of our 
>years with daughters in the pony showing world. Now if you want 
>precocious kids and pushy parents thats the place to be!!! 
>Intimidation 
>of judges , dirty tactics and harrasment were all part of the 
>game.(For 
>others)
>
>Reading the rest of the contributions saddend me more than anything.  
>Fre debate is good but this has not been good.
>
>If we have a situation that experienced pipers feel that they can no 
>longer freely contribute to the pages then surely we have all gone 
>wrong somewhere.  I fall very much into the struggling, mediocre group 
>of players but I enjoy what I manage to play. I live along way 
>from the 
>North east so thef orum and its contributors largely provide me with 
>encouragement and technical information, some laughs and some 
>annoyance 
>at times but nothing, until now, that has made me wonder is it worth 
>bothering anymore.
>
>Style... Well yes it is vital to learn the correct basics, as in any 
>instrument, but whenyou are some distance from a group this becomes 
>difficult. I fear a situation where I may have to lock the door and 
>draw the curtians when playing in case the "style police"  
>find where I 
>live  and come a knocking!!
>
>When attending courses and classes the one thing that always impressed 
>me  was the friendlyness and the willingness to help that came from 
>eveyone I have met. Has that now faded?
>
>Come on let`s get back to something we enjoy, cut the bitching and 
>each play in our own way to the good of ourselves and anyone who 
>whishes to listen to us.
>
>Isn`t it the time of year to go back to discussing what oil to use 
>at least we didn`t upset anyone when we did.
>
>All the best
>
>Guy T.
>
>Address withheld for security reasons!!
>
>
>
>
>http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security - Get 50% off Norton Security 2009
>___
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Not again!

[Christopher.Birch]

Hear hear, welcome back and thanks for all the dots!
Chirs (unashamed KT-worshipper - but aye, there's other equally fine ways of 
playing). 

>-Original Message-
>From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] 
>Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:26 PM
>To: Dartmouth NPS
>Subject: [NSP] Not again!
>
>
>
>   Hello again
>
>   The number of people asking me to stay on the list has 
>really touched
>   me. I did leave but rejoined this morning as Iam convinced there is
>   much still to be said; in no particular order:
>
>
> * It wasnat just Barry Sayas contribution that made me question my
>   presence on the list. It came after some very 
>unpleasant postings,
>   which, for me, came as quite a shock. This list can be 
>a source of
>   genuine information and help to pipers everywhere but 
>it will only
>   succeed if opinions are sensitively voiced and readers 
>take time to
>   assimilate what has been said.
> * Surely it is contradictory to talk about aproper 
>pipinga, amoving
>   ona, apaths to perditiona and aconversiona and then 
>claim rules are
>   not being implied?
> * Why, when Kathryn Tickell has done more, 
>single-handedly, to raise
>   the profile of piping than the NPS has ever done, are 
>some people
>   on the list frightened to even mention her name? Could it be she
>   doesnat follow the (non-existent) rules? Or perhaps it is her
>   success? I have watched her inspire extremely talented 
>bairns who
>   might not have been switched on to Northumbrian piping 
>if the some
>   of the more vociferous elements on this list had been doing the
>   teaching.  Kathryn is one of the hardest working, talented and
>   modest (yes modest!!) people I have ever worked with.
> * Last year I brought Chris Ormston in to teach some 
>pipes lessons at
>   The Sage Gateshead. His talent stood out but his single-minded
>   approach was not what is required in an area of music 
>that is meant
>   to be fun and all-encompassing. I was hoping to carry on with my
>   Northumbrian Band workshops. It would have been perfect 
>for me if
>   Chris had delivered what the people were paying for and been the
>   popular choice to carry on with the pipes when Paul 
>Knox had moved
>   on. Caedmon participants are from all walks of life and pay good
>   money for help in getting what they want from the 
>pipes. Being told
>   that the sounds that had attracted them to the pipes was not the
>   way to do it wasnat exactly the best choice of teaching 
>strategy.
>   So now I am back doing the pipes lessons at TSG. Not my ideal
>   outcome but it is why his ajobs for the boysa jibe was 
>particularly
>   nasty nonsense.
> * With regards to my teaching philosophy and standards, I 
>invite any
>   one of you to ask any of the participants of aThe Cool 
>Breath Toura
>   if they found my approach musical and challenging. We 
>were aiming
>   for the highest standard of musical enjoyment and there 
>will soon
>   be a recording available to see if this was achieved and to what
>   extent. Perhaps Barry can recommend a similar 
>project/recording of
>   his own so that we can hear for ourselves just how far 
>along this
>   road he has travelled  himself?
> * As for the question of gracing; perhaps it is precisely because
>   such notes intrude and give some form of dynamics that 
>I find them
>   so musical and appealing. For heavenas sake, the pipes 
>are limited
>   enough to start with, please do not impose further 
>restrictions on
>   what they should or shouldnat do. If you want your 
>music clean and
>   unadulterated then Noteworthy or Sibelius might be the 
>answer. As
>   for Adrianas conversion, may I suggest that this is the greatest
>   loss to Northumbrian piping since the death of Joe Hutton?
> * The description of conversions to the clean Clough 
>style sound as
>   inviting as joining some strict religious sect. This 
>contrasts to
>   what I was told by Bill Hedworth when I first asked for advice
>   about playing the pipes back in 1969, aAnthony, we each have to
>   find our own salvation when it comes to this instrumenta.
>
>
>   OK, this is plenty to be going on with. It has always been 
>my position
>   that the strength of our music is its breadth of appeal. I 
>am doing no
>   more than offering a description of my own salvation and 
>invite others
>   to take it or leave it. Unless, of course, you want me to organise
>   tours/concert groups etc. when youall have no choice but to 
>take it, at
>   least until I have left the room.
>
>   As aye
>
>   Anthony
>
>   --
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>