benefits of using vs 2010

[Anthony]

 

Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?  

 

 

regards

Anthony (*12QWERNB*)

 

 

 

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[Michael Minutillo]

Hi Anthony,

I'm using 2010 on a project and it's a bit unstable. As I've mentioned
before though we are using the RC so I'd assume some improvement in the
final release itself. I like the new intellisense features and the
multi-monitor support. I like that the Add Reference dialog is fixed and
hate that it has brand new problems. I like that I can style it so the
chrome matches my editor color scheme.

When you upgrade projects you do it in 2 stages. The first is to upgrade the
project and solution files themselves. This has no real bearing on the
compiled executable, it's just a toolset thing. The changes are pretty
minimal really. In fact there is a tool for switching between different
versions if you want to give it a try:
http://stevedunns.blogspot.com/2010/02/tool-to-switch-project-files-between.html

The
second upgrade is to bring your projects into .NET 4.0. That gives you
access to all the new framework stuff like MEF and System.Lazy (both
personal favorites). If you can deploy your app into .NET 4 then I like the
new framework. It has a lot of nice touches to it.

Regards,
Mike

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Anthony  wrote:

>
>
> Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?
>
>
>
>
>
> regards
>
> Anthony (*12QWERNB*)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



-- 
Michael M. Minutillo
Indiscriminate Information Sponge
Blog: http://wolfbyte-net.blogspot.com

RE: benefits of using vs 2010

[Anthony]

Thanks Michael..that switcher tool will allow me to test it and have a
backup planJ

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
On Behalf Of Michael Minutillo
Sent: Monday, 10 May 2010 1:56 PM
To: ozDotNet
Cc: Anthony Salerno
Subject: Re: benefits of using vs 2010

 

Hi Anthony,

 

I'm using 2010 on a project and it's a bit unstable. As I've mentioned
before though we are using the RC so I'd assume some improvement in the
final release itself. I like the new intellisense features and the
multi-monitor support. I like that the Add Reference dialog is fixed and
hate that it has brand new problems. I like that I can style it so the
chrome matches my editor color scheme. 

 

When you upgrade projects you do it in 2 stages. The first is to upgrade the
project and solution files themselves. This has no real bearing on the
compiled executable, it's just a toolset thing. The changes are pretty
minimal really. In fact there is a tool for switching between different
versions if you want to give it a try:
http://stevedunns.blogspot.com/2010/02/tool-to-switch-project-files-between.
html

 

The second upgrade is to bring your projects into .NET 4.0. That gives you
access to all the new framework stuff like MEF and System.Lazy (both
personal favorites). If you can deploy your app into .NET 4 then I like the
new framework. It has a lot of nice touches to it.

 

Regards,

Mike

 

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Anthony  wrote:

 

Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?  

 

 

regards

Anthony (*12QWERNB*)

 

 

 




-- 
Michael M. Minutillo
Indiscriminate Information Sponge
Blog: http://wolfbyte-net.blogspot.com

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[Michael Minutillo]

Well just be careful with it. It's a toy app written some guy so don't bet
the farm on it.

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Anthony  wrote:

>  Thanks Michael..that switcher tool will allow me to test it and have a
> backup planJ
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:
> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Michael Minutillo
> *Sent:* Monday, 10 May 2010 1:56 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Cc:* Anthony Salerno
> *Subject:* Re: benefits of using vs 2010
>
>
>
> Hi Anthony,
>
>
>
> I'm using 2010 on a project and it's a bit unstable. As I've mentioned
> before though we are using the RC so I'd assume some improvement in the
> final release itself. I like the new intellisense features and the
> multi-monitor support. I like that the Add Reference dialog is fixed and
> hate that it has brand new problems. I like that I can style it so the
> chrome matches my editor color scheme.
>
>
>
> When you upgrade projects you do it in 2 stages. The first is to upgrade
> the project and solution files themselves. This has no real bearing on the
> compiled executable, it's just a toolset thing. The changes are pretty
> minimal really. In fact there is a tool for switching between different
> versions if you want to give it a try:
> http://stevedunns.blogspot.com/2010/02/tool-to-switch-project-files-between.html
>
>
>
> The second upgrade is to bring your projects into .NET 4.0. That gives you
> access to all the new framework stuff like MEF and System.Lazy (both
> personal favorites). If you can deploy your app into .NET 4 then I like the
> new framework. It has a lot of nice touches to it.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Anthony  wrote:
>
>
>
> Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?
>
>
>
>
>
> regards
>
> Anthony (*12QWERNB*)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Michael M. Minutillo
> Indiscriminate Information Sponge
> Blog: http://wolfbyte-net.blogspot.com
>



-- 
Michael M. Minutillo
Indiscriminate Information Sponge
Blog: http://wolfbyte-net.blogspot.com

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[Corneliu I. Tusnea]

Yes.
I've moved all my projects (and luckly all my customers) to VS2010 and we
love it.
1. IntelliSense.
2. Faster, much much faster.
3. TFS2010 Rocks without being a pain in the back.
4. Nicer dialogs and smoother overall experience.


Just Migrate :)

Corneliu.




On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Anthony  wrote:

>
>
> Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?
>
>
>
>
>
> regards
>
> Anthony (*12QWERNB*)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

RE: benefits of using vs 2010

[Michael Lyons]

I agree. VS2010 - still running on RC not RTM yet.

 

I went back to the VS2008 the other day and realised how much difference
there is. VS2008 is a pain, no a big pain compared to VS2010. 

It's just so much smoother and doesn't throw out as many stupid C# compiler
build (warning) errors when you're coding away as well as not breaking the
intellisense.

 

Good luck,

Michael Lyons

 

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
On Behalf Of Corneliu I. Tusnea
Sent: Monday, 10 May 2010 2:16 PM
To: ozDotNet
Cc: Anthony Salerno
Subject: Re: benefits of using vs 2010

 

Yes.

I've moved all my projects (and luckly all my customers) to VS2010 and we
love it.

1. IntelliSense.

2. Faster, much much faster.

3. TFS2010 Rocks without being a pain in the back.

4. Nicer dialogs and smoother overall experience.

 

 

Just Migrate :)

 

Corneliu.

 

 

 

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Anthony  wrote:

 

Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?  

 

 

regards

Anthony (*12QWERNB*)

 

 

 

 

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[Mark Jarzebowski]

I've switched most of my current apps to VS2010.

It's looks nicer and is more pleasant to work with.

Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.

Also not much there to improve productivity for coal face developers.

Regards . Mark Jarzebowski
Director Software Engineering
Business Model Systems
Kew Victoria
www.bms.com.au


On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Anthony  wrote:

>
>
> Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?
>
>
>
>
>
> regards
>
> Anthony (*12QWERNB*)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

RE: benefits of using vs 2010

[David Kean]

> Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.

Can you tell the ones that you keep running into? Or can you head over to 
Microsoft Connect and file these? Customer feedback is a huge factor in what 
bugs in fix - if we find the bugs internally but no customer has reported them, 
these fall in priority against other bugs that customers have filed.

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On 
Behalf Of Mark Jarzebowski
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:09 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: benefits of using vs 2010

I've switched most of my current apps to VS2010.

It's looks nicer and is more pleasant to work with.

Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.

Also not much there to improve productivity for coal face developers.

Regards . Mark Jarzebowski
Director Software Engineering
Business Model Systems
Kew Victoria
www.bms.com.au<http://www.bms.com.au>

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Anthony 
mailto:asale...@tpg.com.au>> wrote:

Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?


regards
Anthony (*12QWERNB*)

RE: benefits of using vs 2010

[Mitch Wheat]

While I'm sure the folks at Microsoft do their utmost to fix bugs, it
doesn't take long to 'burn' bug submitters with "This is by design"
responses

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Mitch Wheat

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
On Behalf Of David Kean
Sent: Tuesday, 11 May 2010 8:19 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: benefits of using vs 2010

 

> Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.

 

Can you tell the ones that you keep running into? Or can you head over to
Microsoft Connect and file these? Customer feedback is a huge factor in what
bugs in fix - if we find the bugs internally but no customer has reported
them, these fall in priority against other bugs that customers have filed.

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
On Behalf Of Mark Jarzebowski
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:09 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: benefits of using vs 2010

 

I've switched most of my current apps to VS2010.

 

It's looks nicer and is more pleasant to work with.

 

Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.

 

Also not much there to improve productivity for coal face developers.


Regards . Mark Jarzebowski
Director Software Engineering
Business Model Systems 
Kew Victoria
www.bms.com.au

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Anthony  wrote:

 

Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?  

 

 

regards

Anthony (*12QWERNB*)

 

 

 

 

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[Arjang Assadi]

On 11 May 2010 10:08, Mark Jarzebowski  wrote:
> I've switched most of my current apps to VS2010.
> It's looks nicer and is more pleasant to work with.
+1 on that with you

> Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.
Not sure which ones,

> Also not much there to improve productivity for coal face developers.
What about T4 for code generation? + much much more from VS  Gallery:
http://visualstudiogallery.msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/site/search?f%5B0%5D.Type=VisualStudioVersion&f%5B0%5D.Value=10.0&f%5B0%5D.Text=Visual%20Studio%202010

Any one else has some picks?

Regards

Arjang

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[Trevor Johnson]

Don't know if you would call this a bug or not, but it's the only
issue I've found since Installing VS 2010 last week, and that is the
install didn't upgrade SQL Express 2005 that came with VS 2005 to SQL
Express 2008.

I had trouble with a tutorial sample database that was created with
SQL 2008, VS 2010 gave a database version error, "dbFileName cannot be
opened because it is version 655. This server supports version 612 and
earlier.".

The fix was to remove SQL Express 2005, and install SQL Express 2008...

Cheers

Trevor

On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Arjang Assadi  wrote:
> On 11 May 2010 10:08, Mark Jarzebowski  wrote:
>> I've switched most of my current apps to VS2010.
>> It's looks nicer and is more pleasant to work with.
> +1 on that with you
>
>> Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.
> Not sure which ones,
>
>> Also not much there to improve productivity for coal face developers.
> What about T4 for code generation? + much much more from VS  Gallery:
> http://visualstudiogallery.msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/site/search?f%5B0%5D.Type=VisualStudioVersion&f%5B0%5D.Value=10.0&f%5B0%5D.Text=Visual%20Studio%202010
>
> Any one else has some picks?
>
> Regards
>
> Arjang
>

RE: benefits of using vs 2010

[Greg Low (greglow.com)]

Too true Mitch. 

 

Unfortunately, most of the folk I know that used to submit a lot of bugs and
suggestions have stopped doing so. There are way too many "by design"
responses. And most suggestions (rather than bugs) have no response until
the product is about to ship, then they come back with "closed won't fix",
without comment or even a name of who to talk to.

 

It just isn't a good feedback mechanism at present. 

 

I've even had entries submitted in detail, that a bunch of people have voted
for, many have commented that it's important, and it's been closed as
"closed not reproducible". Again, with the decision attributed to
"Microsoft" and no other name present. You'd think if a number of people
think it's important and you can't reproduce it, you'd reach out to the
person posting it at the very least.

 

I can't make sense of many of the statuses either. I've had another one that
said "can't reproduce" but also then said "fixed in SP1".

 

Regards,

 

Greg

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
On Behalf Of Mitch Wheat
Sent: Tuesday, 11 May 2010 10:22 AM
To: 'ozDotNet'
Subject: RE: benefits of using vs 2010

 

While I'm sure the folks at Microsoft do their utmost to fix bugs, it
doesn't take long to 'burn' bug submitters with "This is by design"
responses

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Mitch Wheat

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
On Behalf Of David Kean
Sent: Tuesday, 11 May 2010 8:19 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: benefits of using vs 2010

 

> Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.

 

Can you tell the ones that you keep running into? Or can you head over to
Microsoft Connect and file these? Customer feedback is a huge factor in what
bugs in fix - if we find the bugs internally but no customer has reported
them, these fall in priority against other bugs that customers have filed.

 

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
On Behalf Of Mark Jarzebowski
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:09 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: benefits of using vs 2010

 

I've switched most of my current apps to VS2010.

 

It's looks nicer and is more pleasant to work with.

 

Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.

 

Also not much there to improve productivity for coal face developers.


Regards . Mark Jarzebowski
Director Software Engineering
Business Model Systems 
Kew Victoria
www.bms.com.au

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Anthony  wrote:

 

Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?  

 

 

regards

Anthony (*12QWERNB*)

 

 

 

 

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[Eddie de Bear]

I agree with Greg on this one. I've submitted bugs and enhancements which
received positive responses (from Microsoft) only to be closed "Won't Fix"
at the last minute. Even if they were migrated to VS-Next would have been a
better option, but to have them closed with no explanation just discourages
people from submitting anything.

Ed.

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Greg Low (greglow.com) wrote:

>  Too true Mitch.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, most of the folk I know that used to submit a lot of bugs
> and suggestions have stopped doing so. There are way too many “by design”
> responses. And most suggestions (rather than bugs) have no response until
> the product is about to ship, then they come back with “closed won’t fix”,
> without comment or even a name of who to talk to.
>
>
>
> It just isn’t a good feedback mechanism at present.
>
>
>
> I’ve even had entries submitted in detail, that a bunch of people have
> voted for, many have commented that it’s important, and it’s been closed as
> “closed not reproducible”. Again, with the decision attributed to
> “Microsoft” and no other name present. You’d think if a number of people
> think it’s important and you can’t reproduce it, you’d reach out to the
> person posting it at the very least.
>
>
>
> I can’t make sense of many of the statuses either. I’ve had another one
> that said “can’t reproduce” but also then said “fixed in SP1”.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:
> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Mitch Wheat
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 May 2010 10:22 AM
>
> *To:* 'ozDotNet'
> *Subject:* RE: benefits of using vs 2010
>
>
>
> While I'm sure the folks at Microsoft do their utmost to fix bugs, it
> doesn't take long to 'burn' bug submitters with "This is by design"
> responses
>
>
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
>
>
> Mitch Wheat
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:
> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Kean
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 May 2010 8:19 AM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* RE: benefits of using vs 2010
>
>
>
> > Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.
>
>
>
> Can you tell the ones that you keep running into? Or can you head over to
> Microsoft Connect and file these? Customer feedback is a *huge* factor in
> what bugs in fix – if we find the bugs internally but no customer has
> reported them, these fall in priority against other bugs that customers have
> filed.
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:
> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Mark Jarzebowski
> *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2010 5:09 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* Re: benefits of using vs 2010
>
>
>
> I've switched most of my current apps to VS2010.
>
>
>
> It's looks nicer and is more pleasant to work with.
>
>
>
> Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.
>
>
>
> Also not much there to improve productivity for coal face developers.
>
>
> Regards . Mark Jarzebowski
> Director Software Engineering
> Business Model Systems
> Kew Victoria
> www.bms.com.au
>
> On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Anthony  wrote:
>
>
>
> Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?
>
>
>
>
>
> regards
>
> Anthony (*12QWERNB*)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



-- 
Eddie de Bear
Mob: 0417066315
Messenger: eddie_deb...@hotmail.com
Skype: eddiedebear

RE: benefits of using vs 2010

[David Kean]

Alright, given that I've actually been on both sides of the fences on this one, 
let me try and explain what happens on the other side:

1) Customer files a bug on Connect, it appears in our TFS bug database 
internally.
2) First CSS/PSS or whatever they are called these days have a look at it to 
try and reproduce the problem. This is to reduce the amount of product support 
that the feature team themselves have to do (which would take us away from 
feature work).
3) As these are support personnal and did not actually work on the product, 
they usually don't have as much context as the feature team themselves - hence 
why some bugs that seem obvious to someone who's used the technology 
extensively might be resolved as not-reproducible. The best way to get through 
CSS is to produce a simple repro project that clearly shows the bug.
4) After CSS have reproduced the problem (or if it is a suggestion), they 
assign the bug to the feature triage team (usually a senior PM, dev and test) 
to look at it. CSS also will add a comment to the customer to tell them that 
they have done that.
5) We look at the bug to determine a couple of things:

i) Is it by-design? The bug may be exhibiting behavior called out in the 
documentation, or called out in the spec (internal document describing the 
design of the feature). Or it may be relying on behavior that we don't 
guarantee (such as relying on the result of String.GetHashCode).
ii) Is it really a suggestion? Is the request a new feature, API or behavior 
that we previously didn't have? These usually fall in priority against normal 
bugs - and we usually consider these in the next planning milestones (which in 
the 6 months to a year of the product cycle means next version).
iii) Is it a bug that we would fix? A variety of factors come into play when we 
decide whether we should fix the bug; How risky is it? Would it break 
compatibility? How many customers would benefit from it? It is a corner case? 
Does it have a reasonable workaround? Is it in an area that we're no longer 
investing in?

The ultimate resolution of a bug can take many months depending on the which 
part of the product cycle we are in, bouncing among various members on the team 
to gather information, and then usually sent back to the triage team to decide 
above. The triage team will then usually add a comment to the customer.

Now the tricky part of above, is that you guys don't see the whole story behind 
the bug. While a bug may have one or two public comments from Microsoft, 
internally there are usually a whole bunch of comments from devs, PMs and QA 
explaining the underlying details, calling out the spec or doc that describes 
the behavior, or explains how it would break compatibility. Unfortunately, due 
to the design of the system - it's very easy to forget to add comment to the 
customer to explain what's occurring underneath or to even know that the bug 
itself is a customer filed bug. This is why sometimes bugs are closed without 
comments.

On top of this, we actually change backend databases every product version, and 
when this happens sometimes the link between the external site and the internal 
database breaks, meaning that any updates to the bug are not shown externally. 
If you've got any bugs from 2005 that are still active, then chances are this 
is one of these cases. I've re-raised this issue a couple of weeks ago, so 
hopefully we can a resolution soon for these.

Another thing that I should add about the 'Won't Fix' tag: This can actually 
have two meanings depending on the team:

1) It really means Won't Fix - something that the team won't look at fixing 
unless a lot of people hit the same bug or provide feedback.
2) It means Won't Fix for this release, but we'll add a special tag to it that 
means 'consider it in the planning for vNext' - this is similar, but 
confusingly not the same, to the Postponed resolution.

Unfortunately, external customers can't see which one this is. You need to 
gleam this from the comments of the product team.

Now this turned out to be longer than I'd planned, its late over here (1:41am) 
and I really should go to bed.


From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] on behalf 
of Eddie de Bear [eddie.deb...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 10:05 PM
To: g...@greglow.com; ozDotNet
Subject: Re: benefits of using vs 2010

I agree with Greg on this one. I've submitted bugs and enhancements which 
received positive responses (from Microsoft) only to be closed "Won't Fix" at 
the last minute. Even if they were migrated to VS-Next would have been a better 
option, but to have them closed with no explanation just discourages people 
from submitting anything.

Ed.

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Greg Low (greglow.com<http://greglow.com>) 
mailto:g

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[Joseph Cooney]

With all due respect, explaining a broken process doesn't make it any less
broken.

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:44 PM, David Kean wrote:

>  Alright, given that I've actually been on both sides of the fences on
> this one, let me try and explain what happens on the other side:
>
> 1) Customer files a bug on Connect, it appears in our TFS bug database
> internally.
> 2) First CSS/PSS or whatever they are called these days have a look at
> it to try and reproduce the problem. This is to reduce the amount of product
> support that the feature team themselves have to do (which would take us
> away from feature work).
> 3) As these are support personnal and did not actually work on the product,
> they usually don't have as much context as the feature team themselves -
> hence why some bugs that seem obvious to someone who's used the technology
> extensively might be resolved as not-reproducible. The best way to get
> through CSS is to produce a simple repro project that clearly shows the bug.
> 4) After CSS have reproduced the problem (or if it is a suggestion), they
> assign the bug to the feature triage team (usually a senior PM, dev and
> test) to look at it. CSS also will add a comment to the customer to tell
> them that they have done that.
> 5) We look at the bug to determine a couple of things:
>
> i) Is it by-design? The bug may be exhibiting behavior called out in the
> documentation, or called out in the spec (internal document describing the
> design of the feature). Or it may be relying on behavior that we don't
> guarantee (such as relying on the result of String.GetHashCode).
> ii) Is it really a suggestion? Is the request a new feature, API or
> behavior that we previously didn't have? These usually fall in priority
> against normal bugs - and we usually consider these in the next planning
> milestones (which in the 6 months to a year of the product cycle means next
> version).
> iii) Is it a bug that we would fix? A variety of factors come into play
> when we decide whether we should fix the bug; How risky is it? Would it
> break compatibility? How many customers would benefit from it? It is a
> corner case? Does it have a reasonable workaround? Is it in an area that
> we're no longer investing in?
>
> The ultimate resolution of a bug can take many months depending on the
> which part of the product cycle we are in, bouncing among various members on
> the team to gather information, and then usually sent back to the triage
> team to decide above. The triage team will then usually add a comment to the
> customer.
>
> Now the tricky part of above, is that you guys don't see the whole story
> behind the bug. While a bug may have one or two public comments from
> Microsoft, internally there are usually a whole bunch of comments from devs,
> PMs and QA explaining the underlying details, calling out the spec or doc
> that describes the behavior, or explains how it would break compatibility.
> Unfortunately, due to the design of the system - it's very easy to forget to
> add comment to the customer to explain what's occurring underneath or to
> even know that the bug itself is a customer filed bug. This is why sometimes
> bugs are closed without comments.
>
> On top of this, we actually change backend databases every product version,
> and when this happens sometimes the link between the external site and the
> internal database breaks, meaning that any updates to the bug are not shown
> externally. If you've got any bugs from 2005 that are still active, then
> chances are this is one of these cases. I've re-raised this issue a couple
> of weeks ago, so hopefully we can a resolution soon for these.
>
> Another thing that I should add about the 'Won't Fix' tag: This can
> actually have two meanings depending on the team:
>
> 1) It really means Won't Fix - something that the team won't look at fixing
> unless a lot of people hit the same bug or provide feedback.
> 2) It means Won't Fix for this release, but we'll add a special tag to it
> that means 'consider it in the planning for vNext' - this is similar, but
> confusingly not the same, to the Postponed resolution.
>
> Unfortunately, external customers can't see which one this is. You need to
> gleam this from the comments of the product team.
>
> Now this turned out to be longer than I'd planned, its late over here
> (1:41am) and I really should go to bed.
>
>  --
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] on
> behalf of Eddie de Bear [eddie.deb...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 11, 2010 10:05 PM
> *To:* g...@greglow.com; ozDotNet
>
> *Subjec

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[Arjang Assadi]

 this is similar, but
>> confusingly not the same, to the Postponed resolution.
>>
>> Unfortunately, external customers can't see which one this is. You need to
>> gleam this from the comments of the product team.
>>
>> Now this turned out to be longer than I'd planned, its late over here
>> (1:41am) and I really should go to bed.
>>
>> 
>> From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] on
>> behalf of Eddie de Bear [eddie.deb...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 10:05 PM
>> To: g...@greglow.com; ozDotNet
>> Subject: Re: benefits of using vs 2010
>>
>> I agree with Greg on this one. I've submitted bugs and enhancements which
>> received positive responses (from Microsoft) only to be closed "Won't Fix"
>> at the last minute. Even if they were migrated to VS-Next would have been a
>> better option, but to have them closed with no explanation just discourages
>> people from submitting anything.
>>
>> Ed.
>>
>> On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Greg Low (greglow.com) 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Too true Mitch.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, most of the folk I know that used to submit a lot of bugs
>>> and suggestions have stopped doing so. There are way too many “by design”
>>> responses. And most suggestions (rather than bugs) have no response until
>>> the product is about to ship, then they come back with “closed won’t fix”,
>>> without comment or even a name of who to talk to.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It just isn’t a good feedback mechanism at present.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’ve even had entries submitted in detail, that a bunch of people have
>>> voted for, many have commented that it’s important, and it’s been closed as
>>> “closed not reproducible”. Again, with the decision attributed to
>>> “Microsoft” and no other name present. You’d think if a number of people
>>> think it’s important and you can’t reproduce it, you’d reach out to the
>>> person posting it at the very least.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I can’t make sense of many of the statuses either. I’ve had another one
>>> that said “can’t reproduce” but also then said “fixed in SP1”.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com
>>> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Wheat
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 11 May 2010 10:22 AM
>>>
>>> To: 'ozDotNet'
>>> Subject: RE: benefits of using vs 2010
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> While I'm sure the folks at Microsoft do their utmost to fix bugs, it
>>> doesn't take long to 'burn' bug submitters with "This is by design"
>>> responses
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mitch Wheat
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com
>>> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Kean
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 11 May 2010 8:19 AM
>>> To: ozDotNet
>>> Subject: RE: benefits of using vs 2010
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can you tell the ones that you keep running into? Or can you head over to
>>> Microsoft Connect and file these? Customer feedback is a huge factor in what
>>> bugs in fix – if we find the bugs internally but no customer has reported
>>> them, these fall in priority against other bugs that customers have filed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com
>>> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Mark Jarzebowski
>>> Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:09 PM
>>> To: ozDotNet
>>> Subject: Re: benefits of using vs 2010
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've switched most of my current apps to VS2010.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's looks nicer and is more pleasant to work with.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sadly most of the worst bugs from VS 2008 are still there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also not much there to improve productivity for coal face developers.
>>>
>>> Regards . Mark Jarzebowski
>>> Director Software Engineering
>>> Business Model Systems
>>> Kew Victoria
>>> www.bms.com.au
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Anthony  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone using vs2010?  Is it worth upgrading some projects?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> regards
>>>
>>> Anthony (*12QWERNB*)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Eddie de Bear
>> Mob: 0417066315
>> Messenger: eddie_deb...@hotmail.com
>> Skype: eddiedebear
>
>
>
> --
> Joseph Cooney
>
> http://jcooney.net
>

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[silky]

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Arjang Assadi  wrote:
> Not sure if the process is broken, it is a complex product and a
> complex process.
> No matter how they turn and change the process, they will not be able
> to handle everything,
> That is not an excuse but just an intrinsic property of complex systems.

No, it *is* an excuse and it is *not* an intrinsic property of
"complex systems".

Your comment makes no sense.

The *world* is a complex system; things can be "handled" by breaking
everything done into smaller managable parts and doing things one by
one.

This is the very essense of getting *anything* done.


> Kind Regards
>
> Arjang Assadi

-- 
silky

  http://www.programmingbranch.com/

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[Craig van Nieuwkerk]

> With all due respect, explaining a broken process doesn't make it any less
> broken.
>

I didn't read anything that lead me to believe the process is broken.
A number of fair reasons were given why a bug might not be fixed.

1. Can't be reproduced
2. Not really a bug
3. Will have significant backwards compatibility issues
4. Not part of the product that is a priority going forward
5. Extreme edge case

You may disagree with their decision, especially when you are not
privy to the reasoning behind it, but to think they just dismiss user
reported bugs is a bit ridiculous.

Craig,

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[David Burstin]

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Craig van Nieuwkerk wrote:

> > With all due respect, explaining a broken process doesn't make it any
> less
> > broken.
> >
>
> I didn't read anything that lead me to believe the process is broken.
> A number of fair reasons were given why a bug might not be fixed.
>
> 1. Can't be reproduced
> 2. Not really a bug
> 3. Will have significant backwards compatibility issues
> 4. Not part of the product that is a priority going forward
> 5. Extreme edge case
>
> You may disagree with their decision, especially when you are not
> privy to the reasoning behind it, but to think they just dismiss user
> reported bugs is a bit ridiculous.
>
>
Agreed. the parts you mention are not broken. Some of the parts you don't
mention are:

1."Won't fix" might mean will never fix, might almost mean "postponed" - no
way to tell the difference.
2. Can't tell if bugs are user generated so replies often not sent.
3. Database upgrades lose information.

I would suggest these parts are broken.

And in the spirit of a post from a while back:
*+1. I agree with everything I just said.*

Cheers
Dave

Craig,
>

Re: benefits of using vs 2010

[Joseph Cooney]

re triage team (usually a senior PM, dev and
> >> test) to look at it. CSS also will add a comment to the customer to tell
> >> them that they have done that.
> >> 5) We look at the bug to determine a couple of things:
> >>
> >> i) Is it by-design? The bug may be exhibiting behavior called out in the
> >> documentation, or called out in the spec (internal document describing
> the
> >> design of the feature). Or it may be relying on behavior that we don't
> >> guarantee (such as relying on the result of String.GetHashCode).
> >> ii) Is it really a suggestion? Is the request a new feature, API or
> >> behavior that we previously didn't have? These usually fall in priority
> >> against normal bugs - and we usually consider these in the next planning
> >> milestones (which in the 6 months to a year of the product cycle means
> next
> >> version).
> >> iii) Is it a bug that we would fix? A variety of factors come into play
> >> when we decide whether we should fix the bug; How risky is it? Would it
> >> break compatibility? How many customers would benefit from it? It is a
> >> corner case? Does it have a reasonable workaround? Is it in an area that
> >> we're no longer investing in?
> >>
> >> The ultimate resolution of a bug can take many months depending on the
> >> which part of the product cycle we are in, bouncing among various
> members on
> >> the team to gather information, and then usually sent back to the triage
> >> team to decide above. The triage team will then usually add a comment to
> the
> >> customer.
> >>
> >> Now the tricky part of above, is that you guys don't see the whole story
> >> behind the bug. While a bug may have one or two public comments from
> >> Microsoft, internally there are usually a whole bunch of comments from
> devs,
> >> PMs and QA explaining the underlying details, calling out the spec or
> doc
> >> that describes the behavior, or explains how it would break
> compatibility.
> >> Unfortunately, due to the design of the system - it's very easy to
> forget to
> >> add comment to the customer to explain what's occurring underneath or to
> >> even know that the bug itself is a customer filed bug. This is why
> sometimes
> >> bugs are closed without comments.
> >>
> >> On top of this, we actually change backend databases every product
> >> version, and when this happens sometimes the link between the external
> site
> >> and the internal database breaks, meaning that any updates to the bug
> are
> >> not shown externally. If you've got any bugs from 2005 that are still
> >> active, then chances are this is one of these cases. I've re-raised this
> >> issue a couple of weeks ago, so hopefully we can a resolution soon for
> >> these.
> >>
> >> Another thing that I should add about the 'Won't Fix' tag: This can
> >> actually have two meanings depending on the team:
> >>
> >> 1) It really means Won't Fix - something that the team won't look at
> >> fixing unless a lot of people hit the same bug or provide feedback.
> >> 2) It means Won't Fix for this release, but we'll add a special tag to
> it
> >> that means 'consider it in the planning for vNext' - this is similar,
> but
> >> confusingly not the same, to the Postponed resolution.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, external customers can't see which one this is. You need
> to
> >> gleam this from the comments of the product team.
> >>
> >> Now this turned out to be longer than I'd planned, its late over here
> >> (1:41am) and I really should go to bed.
> >>
> >> 
> >> From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] on
> >> behalf of Eddie de Bear [eddie.deb...@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 10:05 PM
> >> To: g...@greglow.com; ozDotNet
> >> Subject: Re: benefits of using vs 2010
> >>
> >> I agree with Greg on this one. I've submitted bugs and enhancements
> which
> >> received positive responses (from Microsoft) only to be closed "Won't
> Fix"
> >> at the last minute. Even if they were migrated to VS-Next would have
> been a
> >> better option, but to have them closed with no explanation just
> discourages
> >> people from submitting anything.
> >>
> >> Ed.
&g

RE: benefits of using vs 2010

[David Kean]

One thing that I did miss to mention, was that when I first joined Microsoft, I 
found out that Connect (or Ladybug at the time) wasn't designed to be two way 
conversation. It was designed to be an easy (which is debatable) way for 
customers to file bugs and then have them enter our (yes complex) system. There 
are approximately 30 odd product unit (with up to 3, 4 or 5 feature teams in 
each) contributing to VS/.NET - some teams handled the conversation part better 
than others, others did a terrible job.

While they have started put things in place to make sure the customer is aware 
of what's going on (I think it will no longer allows you to resolve a bug 
without adding a customer comment) - there still kinks that need to be ironed 
out.

Just more on the triage part - each feature gets to triage bugs how they like, 
this means that to the customer what appears to be one contiguous system is 
actually one abstraction over a 100 different little systems.

I'm not trying to defend this process at all - I think it used to suck really 
bad, a bunch of stuff fell though the cracks (hell I still have 9 
bugs/suggestions still open[1] from before I joined Microsoft). However, it is 
getting better - it just takes a while to get 1500 people walking in the same 
direction...

[1] 
https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/SearchResults.aspx?KeywordSearchIn=2&SearchQuery=%26quot%3bDavid+M.+Kean%26quot%3b&FeedbackType=0&Status=1&Scope=0&SortOrder=5&TabView=0

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] on behalf 
of Joseph Cooney [joseph.coo...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 4:54 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: benefits of using vs 2010

Maybe I peppered that last comment with a little bit too much "asshole" - now 
for a response that has been marinating in the milk of human kindness.

After reading David's comments I get it - a big organization, a complex process 
with maybe everyone working in that process doing the best they can. But it 
seems in some cases (perhaps many cases) collectively the process is failing 
Microsoft, and failing the people who submit feedback, and thus I'm calling it 
broken. It's failing MS because they're disenfranchising people who could be 
(and in many cases ARE) some of their strongest supporters. Globally MS employ 
many thousands of evangelists to help people understand and use their products, 
and spend truck-loads of money on conferences, competitions, advertising and 
blogging with the end goal of building human connections with their dev 
customers around the world. If the process for submitting a bug leaves you 
feeling like you've been told to "go write a map reduce function in 
erlang"<http://browsertoolkit.com/fault-tolerance.png> then all that evangelism 
is wasted. It's also failing MS if they miss legitimate opportunities to fix 
bugs in their product. It's failing MS customers reporting bugs because they 
feel marginalized and ignored. If this happens often enough developers will 
start thinking "I can submit a bug report on an ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET> problem 
I'm having, wait 6 months only to be told it's by design/won't fix/go buy some 
premier support, or I can download django or RoR and fix my own problems". It 
sounds like from what others have said and what David is describing the process 
could be improved in a number of ways

  *   Goal entry-level PSS people that triage bugs so they try harder to get a 
repro. If not having a repro greatly diminishes your chances of taking a bug 
seriously then there are going to be lots of legitimate bugs that slip through 
the cracks.
  *   Open, honest communication - if you can't fix it for the current release 
explain why. Explain what the time-frame for fixing it (or considering it if it 
is a feature suggestion) might be. There's a real catch-22 with Microsoft dev 
product cycles - external developers don't want to build serious stuff on top 
of beta1 code, but by the time beta2 rolls around it's too late to change 
things for that release, and it may be impossible to change it EVER (given the 
need for backwards computability).
  *   Accountability - if you're going to be asinine and close a bug that a 3rd 
party expert has reported to you (I'm thinking about Greg's story from earlier 
on in the thread here) and which multiple other people have commented on as 
being serious at least put your name beside it, and have some kind of channel 
where dialog about why the bug can occur.

I'm calling the process as broken - you may disagree with me, but from the 
anecdotes above, and from many others I've read around the interwebs this seems 
like a black eye in MS's engagement with developers.

Joseph

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Arjang Assadi 
mailto:arjang.ass...