[ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please?
Hello wise women, I posted a few weeks ago about a friend of mine with a breech babe at 37+ weeks who was thinking about an independent midwife for support at East Gippsland hospital. I promised to update you so here goes... She had SROM at term with SOOC soon after. Laboured beautifully at home and on admission to labour ward was 5-6cm and doing well. Her lovely OB same in and was with her for the rest of the labour. She laboured to fully without any analgesia then pushed valiantly for 3.5 hrs. They had bum on view when they parted her labia but a babe who seemed well and truly stuck. After some discussion it was decided to go to theatre for section. OB was again lovely with skin to skin in OT, nice feed plus dad cutting the cord. This despite a tricky section due to babe being so low. There was some damage to her bladder (it was 'nicked') plus to the upper posterior vaginal wall with the difficulty of extracting her little one from such a low/tight position. She had a pretty hefty loss (1000 ml, although who knows with C/S as documented by a recent thread!). She recovered well being fit and healthy, going home on day 5. Hospital called the next day to ask her to come back in for AB prophylaxis for her daughter as the anaesthetist attending had just been diagnosed with whooping cough (WHAT!!). Back she went, more worry, more disruption. Two days later she had significant abdo tenderness and lower back pain, so back she went again. Nasty uterine infection, on ABs herself!!! After a week of treatment things seemed to be settling. She was home, feeding going well and her mum visiting. As they sat down to dinner she felt a small gush of blood and went to the toilet to investigate. She called from the bathroom for help and when her mum and partner got to her she was pale, unconscious and lying in a huge pool of blood. Ambulance was going to take 15 min, so they bundled her into the car, hazard lights on and went for it. At the hospital they gave her blood, platelets and gelofusine and called her OB in. After 4-6 hours things seemed to have settled and they were all keeping their fingers crossed. Her condition deteriorated later in the evening and they went to theatre for a DC and investigation. She was in full blown DIC by now so consent was gained for an emergency hysterectomy. When I spoke to her sister today she was still groggy but ok. Words cannot express the sadness I feel. I am going to visit in a couple of weeks when kids and clinical allow but I am desperate to do anything I can to help from here. I know she will get the 'you won't be able to breastfeed with that loss/trauma' talk, but I know in my heart if she could get feeding happening again it would be one normal, beautiful thing she could salvage from this experience. Any thoughts, suggestions, assistance would be most appreciated. I so wish I were there. Yours in sisterhood, Miriam On Yahoo!7 Messenger - Make free PC-to-PC calls to your friends overseas. http://au.messenger.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] afterbirth pains
hi, i have suffered from severe afterpains after my second and third children, talking to my gp afterwards she said it would have helped if i had upped my magnesium intake prior to birth alison On 4/2/06, Nicole Carver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lyn, Voltaren PR may have some impact, but the woman may not notice as I am sure after pains would still break through voltaren. A fast acting analgesic given pre feed may be more appropriate, as at other times there is no pain at all. Might be worth a chat with a pharmacist. However, I find a hot pack is quite effective in taking attention away from the pain. It may also help to know that the pains are not going to last for long, and mean that she will lose less blood due to her very effective contractions. Anyone who has these pains does have my sympathy! Nicole. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of lyn lyn Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 12:02 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] afterbirth pains -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of lyn lyn Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 12:02 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] afterbirth pains Thanks Nicole and Megan for your responses. Do you think that maybe voltaren pr would be of any help. lyn -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] quote of the week
MM, good point, I've never seen them weigh abdo sponges or packs after C/S but we do weigh linen pads at a vag birth in hosp. Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Mary Murphy To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:58 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] quote of the week "If I could wave my wand, our culture would be matriarchal...one of peace, of softness...where children are beloved, where women are revered and taken care of, where birth and mothering are honored and supported." Raven Lang Midwifery Today Issue 70 Wish this was true. It seems to me that women judge each other harshly. MM
Re: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains
Hi Lyn I don't know if this woman had actively managed or physiological 3rd stage with her first 2 but I know of one (now grand) multip whose 2nd birth I attended - she suffered dreadfully with after pains in all hosp births but has had the last couple at home with physiological 3rd stages and told me that the after pains have not been a problem . Sue "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: lyn lyn To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains Hi all I am seeing a mother G4P3 now at 36 weeks who has asked me if there is anything she can do about after birth pains. She had severe suffering after her last two and would like to avoid if possible. Can they actually be avoided. and if so could that mean that there is a risk that her uterus will not contract down strongly and therefore she may bleed heavily. A midwife I know talked about using coosh (not sure if blue or black, i have no experience with either). Supposed to be an antispasmodic, which may not be ideal if we want a contacted uterus. Thanks in advance for any help you may provide lyn No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.4/299 - Release Date: 31/03/2006
[ozmidwifery] JW's - prejudice?
Hi all I was very saddened this week while doing ante-natal clinic. I had a 32 week primip who had been booked at the family birth centre, she was transferring to our care because, as she is a JW and would not accept blood products, she is deemed to be high risk and not allowed to birth at the FBC. Her alternative option was to transfer to the tertiary unit, to which the FBC is attached, and submit to fully actively managed 3rd stage which included an IV infusion of synto. FBC clients have to accept active management anyway, i.e. IM synto, but this woman had to agree to so much more and was denied FBC care. Apparently this is a new policy and I can't imagine that the FBC midwives are happy with it, but really - who makes these decisions, and based on what evidence? Sue "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please?
tears on reading this you r a beautiful soul with a beautiful name send her your compassion spiritually...it works! GB miriam - Original Message - From: Miriam Hannay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 8:18 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please? Hello wise women, I posted a few weeks ago about a friend of mine with a breech babe at 37+ weeks who was thinking about an independent midwife for support at East Gippsland hospital. I promised to update you so here goes... She had SROM at term with SOOC soon after. Laboured beautifully at home and on admission to labour ward was 5-6cm and doing well. Her lovely OB same in and was with her for the rest of the labour. She laboured to fully without any analgesia then pushed valiantly for 3.5 hrs. They had bum on view when they parted her labia but a babe who seemed well and truly stuck. After some discussion it was decided to go to theatre for section. OB was again lovely with skin to skin in OT, nice feed plus dad cutting the cord. This despite a tricky section due to babe being so low. There was some damage to her bladder (it was 'nicked') plus to the upper posterior vaginal wall with the difficulty of extracting her little one from such a low/tight position. She had a pretty hefty loss (1000 ml, although who knows with C/S as documented by a recent thread!). She recovered well being fit and healthy, going home on day 5. Hospital called the next day to ask her to come back in for AB prophylaxis for her daughter as the anaesthetist attending had just been diagnosed with whooping cough (WHAT!!). Back she went, more worry, more disruption. Two days later she had significant abdo tenderness and lower back pain, so back she went again. Nasty uterine infection, on ABs herself!!! After a week of treatment things seemed to be settling. She was home, feeding going well and her mum visiting. As they sat down to dinner she felt a small gush of blood and went to the toilet to investigate. She called from the bathroom for help and when her mum and partner got to her she was pale, unconscious and lying in a huge pool of blood. Ambulance was going to take 15 min, so they bundled her into the car, hazard lights on and went for it. At the hospital they gave her blood, platelets and gelofusine and called her OB in. After 4-6 hours things seemed to have settled and they were all keeping their fingers crossed. Her condition deteriorated later in the evening and they went to theatre for a DC and investigation. She was in full blown DIC by now so consent was gained for an emergency hysterectomy. When I spoke to her sister today she was still groggy but ok. Words cannot express the sadness I feel. I am going to visit in a couple of weeks when kids and clinical allow but I am desperate to do anything I can to help from here. I know she will get the 'you won't be able to breastfeed with that loss/trauma' talk, but I know in my heart if she could get feeding happening again it would be one normal, beautiful thing she could salvage from this experience. Any thoughts, suggestions, assistance would be most appreciated. I so wish I were there. Yours in sisterhood, Miriam On Yahoo!7 Messenger - Make free PC-to-PC calls to your friends overseas. http://au.messenger.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking'
I have to agree with both Gloria and Nicole here. While the reporting of this sounds insensitive and many premmies do just fine, the reality is that the extremely premature babies do not have good outcomes, suffer an innordinate ammount of painful procedures, and often end up with enormous long term disabilities and suffering which has an impact on the whole family. I haveseveral friends with such children and their lives, while precious, have been extremely hard, usually ending young. The parents are left bereft but often relieved when it is finally all over. If this offends some, I do not mean to - just telling you what I have seen and experienced first hand. The trouble is, of course that we do not have a crystal ball to know which are going to do well and which are not, but it horrifies me that so many very sick babies are kept alive when nature would have decreed otherwise - "just because we can". The cost factor is enormous and unjustifiable, but the true cost is in the suffering of the child and it's family. There is so much money used in keeping these tiny babies alive, but then they are given back to their families who have to get on with coping with the result, and believe me- there is precious little funding or support to help with the cost of the next 15, 25, or 55 years. I, for one, am quite pleased to hear that medicine is questioning the wisdom of resuscitating extremely premature infants - too much harm has already been done in thequest of pushing the boundaries of medical science. To quote one friend, a mother, who wrote her story very eloquently: "What happened to all the help given to keepmy sonalive - modern up-to-date technology that saved his life and kept him alive?. Once we were shown the door we were on our own. No more grand technology - because it is wasted on people with a disability - because there is no money, no money, no money" This boydied at age 19, after a life of total dependence for all his needs. He had been born at 24 weeks gestation. Sue "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: Gloria Lemay To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking' Wise words, Nicole. We all have to look at the reality of medical costs that are skyrocketing and never-ending technology that we can buy but can't afford. Gloria in Canada - Original Message - From: Nicole Carver To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 3:03 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking' How sad. A more valid point to discuss is the suffering that some of these babies go through, which should be weighed against chance of survival and later quality of life. There is a lot that is done to these babies to keep them alive, that must must be incredibly painful and distressing. Good palliative care for some, would be far kinder in their brief lives than intercostal tubes, arterial lines, ventilation, gastric tubes, tape all over their face which pulls off their skin when changed, noisy, scary environmentsetc. However, what a heart rending decision to make. I am greatful for my three healthy children, born vaginally at term. No miscarriages or even any scares.How precious life is. Perhaps there should be more done in the prevention of prematurity, such as reducing the stress of pregnant women in lower socio-economic groups by running support groups and providing one to one midwifery care, and more intervention to help women stop smoking. Nicole. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kelly @ BellyBellySent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 10:19 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking' This was apparently on Sky makes you sick to the stomach Fury Over Baby Comments Updated: 14:38, Monday March 27, 2006 Doctors have provoked controversy by suggesting premature babies should not always be treated because they are "bed blocking". They said that in some cases, premature babies born under 25 weeks should be allowed to die. The Royal College Of Obstetricians And Gynaecologists said space in neo-natal units was often in short supply. They said this was the result of "bed-blocking" by very sick premature babies. The Royal College said such beds could be better used to treat babies with a higher chance of survival than sick premature ones. Professor Sir Alan Craft, of the Royal College of Paediatrics, said: "Many
Re: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains
Hi Yvonne, Here is another one on herbal remedy which you might already know. Ping - Original Message - From: Diane Gardner To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains Taking Arnica a week before Estimated due and continue taking it afterwards. It not only helps with after birth pains but promotes healing as well. A Naturopath will have it or some of the larger health food stores do also. Diane G - Original Message - From: lyn lyn To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 11:02 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains Hi all I am seeing a mother G4P3 now at 36 weeks who has asked me if there is anything she can do about after birth pains. She had severe suffering after her last two and would like to avoid if possible. Can they actually be avoided. and if so could that mean that there is a risk that her uterus will not contract down strongly and therefore she may bleed heavily. A midwife I know talked about using coosh (not sure if blue or black, i have no experience with either). Supposed to be an antispasmodic, which may not be ideal if we want a contacted uterus. Thanks in advance for any help you may provide lyn
Re: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains
I have also known of a woman who had severe after birth pains which she had Pethidine for (after getting through the labour without analgesia). With her next birth she decided not to have an oxytocic (Syntometrine was used in that hospital routinely) and she noticed a big difference.Cheers MichelleSusan Cudlipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lyn I don't know if this woman had actively managed or physiological 3rd stage with her first 2 but I know of one (now grand) multip whose 2nd birth I attended - she suffered dreadfully with after pains in all hosp births but has had the last couple at home with physiological 3rd stages and told me that the after pains have not been a problem .Sue "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke- Original Message - From: lyn lyn To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains Hi allI am seeing a mother G4P3 now at 36 weeks who has asked me if there is anything she can do about after birth pains. She had severe suffering after her last two and would like to avoid if possible. Can they actually be avoided. and if so could that mean that there is a risk that her uterus will not contract down strongly and therefore she may bleed heavily.A midwife I know talked about using coosh (not sure if blue or black, i have no experience with either). Supposed to be an antispasmodic, which may not be ideal if we want a contacted uterus.Thanks in advance for any help you may providelynNo virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.4/299 - Release Date: 31/03/2006 On Yahoo!7 Dancing With the Stars: Win tickets to the Grand Final!
RE: [ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains
Title: Message This reminds me of a question I have after being a doula at a birth with a physiological 3rd stage. The mother in question chose physiological and found 3rd stagefar more painful than she had with 2 previously managed (synto) 3rd stages. So painful that she felt she couldn't hold her baby safely(apart from a brief cuddle in the moments following birth). They also only gave her 1/2 hour to deliver placenta physiologically, so she felt pressure to try and breastfeed before her and baby were really ready to try and get things moving. I have a couple of questions, partly "professional" for my future reference, and partly personal because I am considering options for my own birth! Is it normal for third stage to be more painful if done physiologically? Is it normal to set a time limit of 1/2 hour (this was at a low intervention, low risk only hospital - Wyong, whereas I am delivering at the more interventionalist Gosford so imagine it could be even less??? Anyone know who works at either of these hospitals?)? Early skin to skin contact with my baby, and time to allow baby to self attach to the breast are both more important to me than a physiological 3rd stage, so if choosing that option is a risk to either of those things I would prefer they gave me the synto (after waiting for cord to stop pulsing before clamping and cutting)!! Also, I didn't think to ask at the time, but what is the plan if the 1/2 hour is up and the placenta is not delivered? Can you give synto then, or is it too late and there are other things that need to be done? I am just thinking that if there is no problem delaying the synto, can anyone think of any good reason why I couldn't ask for a physiological 3rd stage, then if it was taking too long, or was too painful to hold baby, or I was being rushed to feed to get things moving, I couldn't just say, ok give me the synto then?? Nicola Trainee Doula -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan CudlippSent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 7:01 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains Hi Lyn I don't know if this woman had actively managed or physiological 3rd stage with her first 2 but I know of one (now grand) multip whose 2nd birth I attended - she suffered dreadfully with after pains in all hosp births but has had the last couple at home with physiological 3rd stages and told me that the after pains have not been a problem . Sue "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: lyn lyn To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains Hi all I am seeing a mother G4P3 now at 36 weeks who has asked me if there is anything she can do about after birth pains. She had severe suffering after her last two and would like to avoid if possible. Can they actually be avoided. and if so could that mean that there is a risk that her uterus will not contract down strongly and therefore she may bleed heavily. A midwife I know talked about using coosh (not sure if blue or black, i have no experience with either). Supposed to be an antispasmodic, which may not be ideal if we want a contacted uterus. Thanks in advance for any help you may provide lyn No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.4/299 - Release Date: 31/03/2006
RE: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains
I saw a naturopath regularly during my last pregnancy and took supplements including minerals, I was also over 40. I found that postnatally I had no problem with afterpains or any of the other usual postnatal things I feel pretty confident that it was due to her nutritional support during the pregnancy. Previous pregnancies I had shocking afterpains, and various other inconvenient and painful side effects of labour. Maxine From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Ping Bullock Sent: Sunday, 2 April 2006 7:51 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains Hi Yvonne, Here is another one on herbal remedy which you might already know. Ping - Original Message - From: Diane Gardner To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains Taking Arnica a week before Estimated due and continue taking it afterwards. It not only helps with after birth pains but promotes healing as well. A Naturopath will have it or some of the larger health food stores do also. Diane G - Original Message - From: lyn lyn To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 11:02 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains Hi all I am seeing a mother G4P3 now at 36 weeks who has asked me if there is anything she can do about after birth pains. She had severe suffering after her last two and would like to avoid if possible. Can they actually be avoided. and if so could that mean that there is a risk that her uterus will not contract down strongly and therefore she may bleed heavily. A midwife I know talked about using coosh (not sure if blue or black, i have no experience with either). Supposed to be an antispasmodic, which may not be ideal if we want a contacted uterus. Thanks in advance for any help you may provide lyn
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please?
I guess this is why some advise c/s for breech, but it seems that this, She laboured to fully without any analgesia then pushed valiantly for 3.5 hrs is the problem. I was led to believe that if progress of the breech halted, then it was the time to change options. Mm
RE: [ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains
Title: Message I have had 2 babes with a physiological 3rd stage, the other was a Caesar so I dont think that really counts. The first one took quite a long time maybe an hour? But was no problem and although I had some contractions they werent too bad. I certainly was more interested in snuggling with my baby. The last baby it was much quicker maybe 15 or 20 minutes and again no drama and very little pain. Remember that you never have to accept any offered treatment no matter what the protocol says it is your decision how long you take to birth your placenta. Some are quicker than others just like the birth of the baby. You can have synto at any time but really the only concern at any stage would be if you were bleeding. Maxine From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Nicola Morley Sent: Sunday, 2 April 2006 8:05 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains This reminds me of a question I have after being a doula at a birth with a physiological 3rd stage. The mother in question chose physiological and found 3rd stagefar more painful than she had with 2 previously managed (synto) 3rd stages. So painful that she felt she couldn't hold her baby safely(apart from a brief cuddle in the moments following birth). They also only gave her 1/2 hour to deliver placenta physiologically, so she felt pressure to try and breastfeed before her and baby were really ready to try and get things moving. I have a couple of questions, partly professional for my future reference, and partly personal because I am considering options for my own birth! Is it normal for third stage to be more painful if done physiologically? Is it normal to set a time limit of 1/2 hour (this was at a low intervention, low risk only hospital - Wyong, whereas I am delivering at the more interventionalist Gosford so imagine it could be even less??? Anyone know who works at either of these hospitals?)? Early skin to skin contact with my baby, and time to allow baby to self attach to the breast are both more important to me than a physiological 3rd stage, so if choosing that option is a risk to either of those things I would prefer they gave me the synto (after waiting for cord to stop pulsing before clamping and cutting)!! Also, I didn't think to ask at the time, but what is the plan if the 1/2 hour is up and the placenta is not delivered? Can you give synto then, or is it too late and there are other things that need to be done? I am just thinking that if there is no problem delaying the synto, can anyone think of any good reason why I couldn't ask for a physiological 3rd stage, then if it was taking too long, or was too painful to hold baby, or I was being rushed to feed to get things moving, I couldn't just say, ok give me the synto then?? Nicola Trainee Doula
Re: [ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains
Title: Message When you were with the mother who had the physiological third stage Nicole, was there any touching, pulling or tugging on the umbilical cord? If a caregiver is not commonly practicing a physiological third stage they may be putting cord traction on the cord (pulling gently) anf this can cause the pain you spoke of. I have had four physiological third stages and none have been overtly painful. I have seen hundreds and the only time the woman has mentioned pain is when the caregiver is pulling on the cord or putting pressure on the top of the uterus. There is no reason why, if everything else is normal, you cannot decline synt until a time has been reached. A physiological third stage can take a lot longer - anything between a few minutes to 2 hours is still normal - although most hospitals would be uncomfortable waiting more than 30 minutes. There is no increased risk after 30 minutes - sadly, they are smply used to seeing a placenta come a lot quicker than that because managed care is the norm now. You can always choose to have the synt. As with every other intervention, and with the option of expectant care, there are pros and cons and only you can now the acceptable option for you and your baby. Nikki Macfarlane Childbirth International www.childbirthinternational.com
Re: [ozmidwifery] quote of the week
So true, Mary. Women are the harshest judges of eachother. Some of the pregnancy/birth/parenting forums I read show this to be true in almost every topic. :(JoOn 02/04/2006, at 3:58 PM, Mary Murphy wrote:"If I could wave my wand, our culture would be matriarchal...one of peace, of softness...where children are beloved, where women are revered and taken care of, where birth and mothering are honored and supported."— Raven Lang Midwifery Today Issue 70” Wish this was true. It seems to me that women judge each other harshly. MM
RE: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking'
Hear hear. Although not prem. baby took 40 mins to get a heart beat, ventilated. Can't control his own temperature, swallow, etc. Needs 24 hr care. No awareness. No life. Maureen. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Susan CudlippSent: Sunday, 2 April 2006 7:50 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking' I have to agree with both Gloria and Nicole here. While the reporting of this sounds insensitive and many premmies do just fine, the reality is that the extremely premature babies do not have good outcomes, suffer an innordinate ammount of painful procedures, and often end up with enormous long term disabilities and suffering which has an impact on the whole family. I haveseveral friends with such children and their lives, while precious, have been extremely hard, usually ending young. The parents are left bereft but often relieved when it is finally all over. If this offends some, I do not mean to - just telling you what I have seen and experienced first hand. The trouble is, of course that we do not have a crystal ball to know which are going to do well and which are not, but it horrifies me that so many very sick babies are kept alive when nature would have decreed otherwise - "just because we can". The cost factor is enormous and unjustifiable, but the true cost is in the suffering of the child and it's family. There is so much money used in keeping these tiny babies alive, but then they are given back to their families who have to get on with coping with the result, and believe me- there is precious little funding or support to help with the cost of the next 15, 25, or 55 years. I, for one, am quite pleased to hear that medicine is questioning the wisdom of resuscitating extremely premature infants - too much harm has already been done in thequest of pushing the boundaries of medical science. To quote one friend, a mother, who wrote her story very eloquently: "What happened to all the help given to keepmy sonalive - modern up-to-date technology that saved his life and kept him alive?. Once we were shown the door we were on our own. No more grand technology - because it is wasted on people with a disability - because there is no money, no money, no money" This boydied at age 19, after a life of total dependence for all his needs. He had been born at 24 weeks gestation. Sue "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: Gloria Lemay To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking' Wise words, Nicole. We all have to look at the reality of medical costs that are skyrocketing and never-ending technology that we can buy but can't afford. Gloria in Canada - Original Message - From: Nicole Carver To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 3:03 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking' How sad. A more valid point to discuss is the suffering that some of these babies go through, which should be weighed against chance of survival and later quality of life. There is a lot that is done to these babies to keep them alive, that must must be incredibly painful and distressing. Good palliative care for some, would be far kinder in their brief lives than intercostal tubes, arterial lines, ventilation, gastric tubes, tape all over their face which pulls off their skin when changed, noisy, scary environmentsetc. However, what a heart rending decision to make. I am greatful for my three healthy children, born vaginally at term. No miscarriages or even any scares.How precious life is. Perhaps there should be more done in the prevention of prematurity, such as reducing the stress of pregnant women in lower socio-economic groups by running support groups and providing one to one midwifery care, and more intervention to help women stop smoking. Nicole. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kelly @ BellyBellySent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 10:19 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking' This was apparently on Sky makes you sick to the stomach Fury Over Baby Comments Updated: 14:38, Monday March 27, 2006 Doctors have provoked controversy by suggesting
Re: [ozmidwifery] JW's - prejudice?
Susan, Seems rough doesn't it? Rosebud had that discussion toobut negotiated thatWomen whowere JWwould still be eligible to birth atthe low risk centre if they accepted synt for 3rd stage (can always say NO at the time though)but transferred to Level2 unit if anything off track in their labour. If all OK then fine to birth at the low risk unit. Compromise. With kind regardsBrenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Susan Cudlipp To: midwifery list Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 7:10 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] JW's - prejudice? Hi all I was very saddened this week while doing ante-natal clinic. I had a 32 week primip who had been booked at the family birth centre, she was transferring to our care because, as she is a JW and would not accept blood products, she is deemed to be high risk and not allowed to birth at the FBC. Her alternative option was to transfer to the tertiary unit, to which the FBC is attached, and submit to fully actively managed 3rd stage which included an IV infusion of synto. FBC clients have to accept active management anyway, i.e. IM synto, but this woman had to agree to so much more and was denied FBC care. Apparently this is a new policy and I can't imagine that the FBC midwives are happy with it, but really - who makes these decisions, and based on what evidence? Sue "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke
[ozmidwifery] Hi from Finland
Hi Andrea, I remember talking to you about the use of gas and air in Britain. The midwife, who has helped me a lot with my projects lives in the UK and works in a Birth centre, where they use the gas and air a lot. I remember you said there are many sideaffects for this. Now unfortunately she has found out, that the baby is Down Syndrome. I don't know the situation too well, but it just suddenly made me think, that can there be any connection to the gas and air? I would't talk to her about it, but thought I'd ask you about it. Also I was reading about the binding in Japan in your diary. We sell a post natal girdle in our store. We only sell couple of them in year and never thought too much about it, but could this work in a similar way? http://www.bebes.fi/kauppa/product_info.php?cPath=23_28products_id=909language=en Päivi Laukkanen Finland -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] previous email was not intended for the list : (
Sorry everyone, I accidentally posted a mail to the list, which was intended for Andrea personally. Paivi -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Nitrous oxide
Hi Paivi, I realised that you meant this message for me personally, however I did want to let list readers know that my article on the hazards of using nitrous oxide for midwives is in the March issue of MIDIRS. I wrote this article using extensive research supplied by a midwife colleague in the UK and it was primarily aimed at the British midwives who frequently use Entonox in enclosed, unventilated labour rooms, often for many hours. There are significant health effects for midwives (and probably the women as well) and I have written these up in the article. Nitrous oxide affects DNA synthesis and removes Vitamin B12 from the body. That is probably the reason why miscarriage rates are high amongst midwives - the embryo may be damaged by either of these deficiencies and therefore not viable. It is recommended that midwives planning a pregnancy have their B12 levels checked before starting on a pregnancy and that they work in areas away from labour wards during the pregnancy (and possibly breastfeeding). There are other effects as well - chronic fatigue is also reported in midwives (and again may be a problem postnatally for women exposed to nitrous oxide for many hours during labour). I don't know of any research that suggests a link between nitrous oxide and Downs Syndrome. As soon as I can get this article available, you'll all have the references and full details. Regards, Andrea -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains
Title: Message Thanks to those who have replied :) Food for thought. Nikki - no there was no cord traction at all. Nicola 597 -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nikki MacfarlaneSent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 8:50 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains When you were with the mother who had the physiological third stage Nicole, was there any touching, pulling or tugging on the umbilical cord? If a caregiver is not commonly practicing a physiological third stage they may be putting cord traction on the cord (pulling gently) anf this can cause the pain you spoke of. I have had four physiological third stages and none have been overtly painful. I have seen hundreds and the only time the woman has mentioned pain is when the caregiver is pulling on the cord or putting pressure on the top of the uterus. There is no reason why, if everything else is normal, you cannot decline synt until a time has been reached. A physiological third stage can take a lot longer - anything between a few minutes to 2 hours is still normal - although most hospitals would be uncomfortable waiting more than 30 minutes. There is no increased risk after 30 minutes - sadly, they are smply used to seeing a placenta come a lot quicker than that because managed care is the norm now. You can always choose to have the synt. As with every other intervention, and with the option of expectant care, there are pros and cons and only you can now the acceptable option for you and your baby. Nikki Macfarlane Childbirth International www.childbirthinternational.com
Re: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/S
We have just recently had 2 women have hysterectomy's following LCSC for control of bleeding. In both cases the lower segment was very thin and suturing was almost impossible. So LSCS do not necessarily save women from PPH and it is known that women who have LSCS have a greater blood loss anyway. Initially anyway. Katy. - Original Message - From: Melissa Singer To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/S Maybe the thinking is should she have another large PPH there is already direct access to the uterus to clamp hemorrhaging vessels? It seems Obs are always suggesting a C/S for one reason or another. I think it is OK for her to say no, there are protocols and procedures to follow for anyone with high risk of PPH and usually if they are followed and she is birthing in a place where there is 24hr theatre immediately available it should be reasonable. But that said I don't know how large her previous pph's were, if she was compromise etc Melissa - Original Message - From: Nicole Carver To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 4:44 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/S Women also have PPH's at caesarean. Not sure if c/s would be safer. Perhaps she should see another ob for a second opinion. Nicole. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kelly @ BellyBellySent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 4:27 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/S Hello all, A woman on my forums has had two normal births of big babies 11lb3oz and 13lb5oz and had a PPH with both. Her Ob is now recommending a c/s with her third bub and wants a scan at 34 weeks as a deciding factor of this. She wants a normal birth is it okay just for her to say no without too much risk with PPH? Best Regards,Kelly ZanteyCreator, BellyBelly.com.au Gentle Solutions From Conception to ParenthoodBellyBelly Birth Support - http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support __ NOD32 1.1467 (20060402) Information __This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.http://www.eset.com
Re: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking'
Dear list, there is no excuse for the use of insensitive and offensive language for example the use of the word 'bed blocking'. The production line language is in common parlance unfortunately.. I recommend the recent paper by Denis Walsh published in the journal Social Science Medicine 62 (2006) 13301340 , "Subverting the assembly-line: Childbirth in a free-standing birth centre". I also think that the discussion needs to focus more on the practice of RCOG and other professional groups who need to re-examine the advice they give women regarding elective caesarean section. I'm sure our research will show that the rise in the rate of admission of babies who are 'drugged' at birth and plucked from their mothers via CS and also those who are born by CS too early - i.e. younger than 39 completed weeks gestationare the real reason why so many intensive beds are taken up - often these babies are admitted for 24 hours or longer - sometimes even on ventilators if the RDS is bad enough,and both these circumstances are easily preventable!!!. ST Gloria Lemay wrote: Wise words, Nicole. We all have to look at the reality of medical costs that are skyrocketing and never-ending technology that we can buy but can't afford. Gloria in Canada - Original Message - From: Nicole Carver To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 3:03 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking' How sad. A more valid point to discuss is the suffering that some of these babies go through, which should be weighed against chance of survival and later quality of life. There is a lot that is done to these babies to keep them alive, that must must be incredibly painful and distressing. Good palliative care for some, would be far kinder in their brief lives than intercostal tubes, arterial lines, ventilation, gastric tubes, tape all over their face which pulls off their skin when changed, noisy, scary environmentsetc. However, what a heart rending decision to make. I am greatful for my three healthy children, born vaginally at term. No miscarriages or even any scares.How precious life is. Perhaps there should be more done in the prevention of prematurity, such as reducing the stress of pregnant women in lower socio-economic groups by running support groups and providing one to one midwifery care, and more intervention to help women stop smoking. Nicole. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Kelly @ BellyBelly Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 10:19 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] Article: Premmie Babies 'Bed Blocking' This was apparently on Sky makes you sick to the stomach Fury Over Baby Comments Updated: 14:38, Monday March 27, 2006 Doctors have provoked controversy by suggesting premature babies should not always be treated because they are "bed blocking". They said that in some cases, premature babies born under 25 weeks should be allowed to die. The Royal College Of Obstetricians And Gynaecologists said space in neo-natal units was often in short supply. They said this was the result of "bed-blocking" by very sick premature babies. The Royal College said such beds could be better used to treat babies with a higher chance of survival than sick premature ones. Professor Sir Alan Craft, of the Royal College of Paediatrics, said: "Many paediatricians would be in favour of adopting the Dutch model of no active intervention for these very little babies. "The vast majority of children born at this gestation who do survive have significant disabilities. "There is a lifetime cost and that needs to be taken into the equation when society tries to decide whether it wants to intervene." However, premature babies charity Bliss described the idea as a "gross abuse of human rights". Chief executive Rob Williams said: "We might as well have a policy of not treating victims of car crashes which occur at over 50 miles an hour, or denying medical services to those over a certain age." __ Then this: Premature babies are blocking beds, says royal medical college By Amy Iggulden (Filed: 27/03/2006) Premature babies who need months of expensive care have been accused of "bed blocking" by one of Britain's royal medical colleges, it emerged yesterday. Sarah and James Cummings Sara Cummings and her son James, now a healthy five-year-old, who was born at just 24 weeks In a consultation document, the Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology (RCOG) said that very premature babies were taking up intensive care space that could be used for healthier babies. The high demand
[ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains
Title: Message I have been at hundreds of physiologically managed 3rd stages. We do not touch or pull on the cord at all. No fundus fiddling or pressure. Sometimes the placenta will come away in a few minutes. My criteria for the length of time whilst waiting is: a) does the mother wish to wait, or would she prefer and injection of syntocinon and CCT b) is there excessive bleeding? If not, and mums okay with it, we wait. I have waited up to 8 hours for some placentas, with no ill effects. I did a survey of my clients, and the average time for a physiological 3rd stage seems to be about 1 and a 1/2 hours. But I have more time to wait..I don't think it's the way of a hospital setting. Cheers Robyn D - Original Message - From: Nicola Morley To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: 03 April, 2006 7:13 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains Thanks to those who have replied :) Food for thought. Nikki - no there was no cord traction at all. Nicola 597 -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nikki MacfarlaneSent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 8:50 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains When you were with the mother who had the physiological third stage Nicole, was there any touching, pulling or tugging on the umbilical cord? If a caregiver is not commonly practicing a physiological third stage they may be putting cord traction on the cord (pulling gently) anf this can cause the pain you spoke of. I have had four physiological third stages and none have been overtly painful. I have seen hundreds and the only time the woman has mentioned pain is when the caregiver is pulling on the cord or putting pressure on the top of the uterus. There is no reason why, if everything else is normal, you cannot decline synt until a time has been reached. A physiological third stage can take a lot longer - anything between a few minutes to 2 hours is still normal - although most hospitals would be uncomfortable waiting more than 30 minutes. There is no increased risk after 30 minutes - sadly, they are smply used to seeing a placenta come a lot quicker than that because managed care is the norm now. You can always choose to have the synt. As with every other intervention, and with the option of expectant care, there are pros and cons and only you can now the acceptable option for you and your baby. Nikki Macfarlane Childbirth International www.childbirthinternational.com
Re: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/S
I feel that if this woman has had such large babies, what a wonderful pelvis she must have! Good on her! Rather than promoting a c-section, perhaps look at her diet...does she just grow big bubs, or does she over indulge in the sugary foods? If PPH is the worry, perhaps a discussion around a managed 3rd stage, or syntocinon if there are any signs of excessive bleeding. I've had many women with large babies, doesn't mean they will have a PPH, simply that they grow bigger bubs, and have a pelvis to fit them thru. Cheers Robyn D - Original Message - From: Kelly @ BellyBelly To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: 01 April, 2006 4:26 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/S Hello all, A woman on my forums has had two normal births of big babies 11lb3oz and 13lb5oz and had a PPH with both. Her Ob is now recommending a c/s with her third bub and wants a scan at 34 weeks as a deciding factor of this. She wants a normal birth is it okay just for her to say no without too much risk with PPH? Best Regards,Kelly ZanteyCreator, BellyBelly.com.au Gentle Solutions From Conception to ParenthoodBellyBelly Birth Support - http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support
Re: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/S
the things is that if her babies are that big imagine how big her placentas are, probably the size of a dinner plate instead of a bread and butter plate. It makes sense that a large placental site will bleed more than a little one but its whether the woman is symptomatic or not that matters. If she does not cope with the amount of blood she lost then it is an issue and she needs to look at alternatives rather than go inyo it and just let the same thing happen again like the proverbial ostrich. If it is just that the doctor is uncomfortable with the blood loss but she is physiologically fine then find another care giver and save him the grey hair.Its all about what she wants and is prepared to do to get it. Andrea QuanchiOn 03/04/2006, at 10:14 AM, Robyn Dempsey wrote:I feel that if this woman has had such large babies, what a wonderful pelvis she must have! Good on her! Rather than promoting a c-section, perhaps look at her diet...does she just grow big bubs, or does she over indulge in the sugary foods? If PPH is the worry, perhaps a discussion around a managed 3rd stage, or syntocinon if there are any signs of excessive bleeding. I've had many women with large babies, doesn't mean they will have a PPH, simply that they grow bigger bubs, and have a pelvis to fit them thru. CheersRobyn D- Original Message -From: Kelly @ BellyBellyTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSent: 01 April, 2006 4:26 PMSubject: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/SHello all, A woman on my forums has had two normal births of big babies – 11lb3oz and 13lb5oz and had a PPH with both. Her Ob is now recommending a c/s with her third bub and wants a scan at 34 weeks as a deciding factor of this. She wants a normal birth – is it okay just for her to say no without too much risk with PPH?Best Regards,Kelly ZanteyCreator, BellyBelly.com.au Gentle Solutions From Conception to ParenthoodBellyBelly Birth Support - http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support
Re: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/S
"Its all about what she wants and is prepared to do to get it." very true I say this a lot lately! - Original Message - From: Andrea Quanchi To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/S the things is that if her babies are that big imagine how big her placentas are, probably the size of a dinner plate instead of a bread and butter plate. It makes sense that a large placental site will bleed more than a little one but its whether the woman is symptomatic or not that matters. If she does not cope with the amount of blood she lost then it is an issue and she needs to look at alternatives rather than go inyo it and just let the same thing happen again like the proverbial ostrich. If it is just that the doctor is uncomfortable with the blood loss but she is physiologically fine then find another care giver and save him the grey hair. Its all about what she wants and is prepared to do to get it. Andrea Quanchi On 03/04/2006, at 10:14 AM, Robyn Dempsey wrote: I feel that if this woman has had such large babies, what a wonderful pelvis she must have! Good on her! Rather than promoting a c-section, perhaps look at her diet...does she just grow big bubs, or does she over indulge in the sugary foods? If PPH is the worry, perhaps a discussion around a managed 3rd stage, or syntocinon if there are any signs of excessive bleeding. I've had many women with large babies, doesn't mean they will have a PPH, simply that they grow bigger bubs, and have a pelvis to fit them thru. Cheers Robyn D - Original Message - From: Kelly @ BellyBelly To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: 01 April, 2006 4:26 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/S Hello all, A woman on my forums has had two normal births of big babies – 11lb3oz and 13lb5oz and had a PPH with both. Her Ob is now recommending a c/s with her third bub and wants a scan at 34 weeks as a deciding factor of this. She wants a normal birth – is it okay just for her to say no without too much risk with PPH? Best Regards,Kelly ZanteyCreator, BellyBelly.com.au Gentle Solutions From Conception to ParenthoodBellyBelly Birth Support - http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support
Re: [ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains
Hi Nicola Who are you seeing for your care???The main thing to remember is to discuss all your wishes with the midwife on the day. If the midwife is aware of what your wishes are they can facilitate it better. From memeory (it has been a few months since I was in birthing suite) you have up to an hour for the placenta to come when using physiologically...this does lessen though if there is copious amounts of blood loss and you are symptomatic of having a PPH. As far as I know all of us in birthing suite facilitate skin to skin contact after birth, and encourage the baby to feed etc before anything is attended such as the weighing of the baby. We all like the baby to have a beautiful cuddle with mum. As for cord clamping, again, if the midwife is aware, she can facilitate the delayed clamping of the cord. From what I have seen, the physiological 3rd stage is no less painful than when having synto. I find it is the individual woman, and how she tolerates the pain in general. Some find it more painful, others find it a pleasureble sensation as there are no bones in the placenta and it expells easily. Some have a one huge contraction then the placenta births, then they have mild period pain. Most of them say it was nothing compared to the labour. Hope that helps...and if you have any other queries let me know. Katrina On 02/04/2006, at 8:05 PM, Nicola Morley wrote: x-tad-smallerThis reminds me of a question I have after being a doula at a birth with a physiological 3rd stage. The mother in question chose physiological and found 3rd stage far more painful than she had with 2 previously managed (synto) 3rd stages. So painful that she felt she couldn't hold her baby safely(apart from a brief cuddle in the moments following birth). They also only gave her 1/2 hour to deliver placenta physiologically, so she felt pressure to try and breastfeed before her and baby were really ready to try and get things moving./x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerI have a couple of questions, partly professional for my future reference, and partly personal because I am considering options for my own birth! Is it normal for third stage to be more painful if done physiologically? Is it normal to set a time limit of 1/2 hour (this was at a low intervention, low risk only hospital - Wyong, whereas I am delivering at the more interventionalist Gosford so imagine it could be even less??? Anyone know who works at either of these hospitals?)? Early skin to skin contact with my baby, and time to allow baby to self attach to the breast are both more important to me than a physiological 3rd stage, so if choosing that option is a risk to either of those things I would prefer they gave me the synto (after waiting for cord to stop pulsing before clamping and cutting)!!/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerAlso, I didn't think to ask at the time, but what is the plan if the 1/2 hour is up and the placenta is not delivered? Can you give synto then, or is it too late and there are other things that need to be done? I am just thinking that if there is no problem delaying the synto, can anyone think of any good reason why I couldn't ask for a physiological 3rd stage, then if it was taking too long, or was too painful to hold baby, or I was being rushed to feed to get things moving, I couldn't just say, ok give me the synto then??/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerNicola/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerTrainee Doula/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smaller-Original Message-/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerFrom:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] /x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerOn Behalf Of /x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerSusan Cudlipp/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerSent:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller Sunday, April 02, 2006 7:01 PM/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerTo:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerSubject:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller Re: [ozmidwifery] after birth pains/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerHi Lyn/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerI don't know if this woman had actively managed or physiological 3rd stage with her first 2 but I know of one (now grand) multip whose 2nd birth I attended - she suffered dreadfully with after pains in all hosp births but has had the last couple at home with physiological 3rd stages and told me that the after pains have not been a problem ./x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerSue/x-tad-smallerThe only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke x-tad-smaller- Original Message -/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerFrom:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller /x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerlyn lyn/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller /x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerTo:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller /x-tad-smallerx-tad-smallerozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller /x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerSent:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller Sunday, April 02, 2006 9:02 AM/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerSubject:/x-tad-smallerx-tad-smaller [ozmidwifery] after birth pains/x-tad-smaller x-tad-smallerHi
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please?
Do you really think that a massive PPH 2.5 weeks (WEEKS, not hours or days) after a ceaser that resulted in a nasty uterine infection is most likely to do with the breech presentation? If the babe was cephalic she still might have stuck at full dilation and had a c/s - would she have been less likely to have gotten an infection or have the PPH? At 6:21 PM +0800 2/4/06, Mary Murphy wrote: I guess this is why some advise c/s for breech, but it seems that this, ³She laboured to fully without any analgesia then pushed valiantly for 3.5 hrs² is the problem. I was led to believe that if progress of the breech halted, then it was the time to change options. Mm -- Jo Bourne Virtual Artists Pty Ltd -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains
Physiological 3rd stage is usual in homebirths and I observe that pain is often when the placenta is separated and sitting in the cervix. The uterus is signaling, get it out. It is a sign for the woman to make efforts to expel it. This may be squat over a bucket, sit on the toilet or simply bear down. The pain goes when the placenta is expelled. Afterbirth pains then take over and this has already been discussed. Cheers, MM
[ozmidwifery] article FYI
Increasing Angle of Episiotomy Reduces Third-Degree Tear Risk Reuters Health Information 2006. © 2006 Reuters Ltd. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. Reuters and the Reuters sphere logo are registered trademarks and trademarks of the Reuters group of companies around the world. NEW YORK (Reuters Health) Mar 16 - The larger the angle of episiotomy, the lower the risk of anal sphincter injury, a new study shows. Injury to the anal sphincter due to a third-degree perineal tear during vaginal delivery is the leading cause of fecal incontinence in healthy women, Dr. Colm O'Herlihy of University College Dublin and colleagues note. While the risk of third-degree tear is lower with mediolateral episiotomy compared with midline episiotomy, they add, it remains unclear what effect the angle of incision has on injury risk. To investigate, the researchers looked at 100 primiparous women, all of whom had right mediolateral episiotomy. Fifty-four of the women sustained third-degree tears, while the rest did not and served as the control group. All were evaluated three months after delivery. The mean episiotomy angle in the cases was 30 degrees, compared with 38 degrees for controls. Nearly 10% of women with an angle of episiotomy below 25 degrees had third-degree tears, compared with 0.05% of women with an episiotomy angle above 45 degrees. With every 6.3-degree increase in angle size, the relative risk of third-degree tear was reduced by 50%. Women with third-degree tears were not significantly more likely to report problems with fecal incontinence, the researchers note. Nonetheless, a range of continence scores was seen in both groups, indicating that continence compromise can occur postnatally, regardless of mode of delivery or presence or absence of anal sphincter injury, they add. Therefore, it remains important to question and advise women on this problem in the postnatal period. They conclude: If right mediolateral episiotomy is indicated, the angle of this should be as large as possible in order to reduce the incidence, and thus the potential sequelae, of obstetric anal sphincter injury. BJOG 2006;113:190-194. Leanne Wynne Midwife in charge of Women's Business Mildura Aboriginal Health Service Mob 0418 371862 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please?
Jo, I was exploring the thought that if the breech was stuck for so long it could have put uneven pressure on the lower segment for a long time and perhaps cause dehishance or pressure areas which could lead to necrosis and the following events. Not a criticism, merely a lateral thought. As a supporter of breech vaginal birth, I am interested in all the possible ramifications. It was a long delay. Perhaps for this individual woman a long delay with a cephalic presentation would be the same, however, the head is round and smooth and would cause even pressures? Who knows, as I said, just exploring possibilities. MM Do you really think that a massive PPH 2.5 weeks (WEEKS, not hours or days) after a ceaser that resulted in a nasty uterine infection is most likely to do with the breech presentation? If the babe was cephalic she still might have stuck at full dilation and had a c/s - would she have been less likely to have gotten an infection or have the PPH? At 6:21 PM +0800 2/4/06, Mary Murphy wrote: I guess this is why some advise c/s for breech, but it seems that this, ³She laboured to fully without any analgesia then pushed valiantly for 3.5 hrs² is the problem. I was led to believe that if progress of the breech halted, then it was the time to change options. Mm -- Jo Bourne Virtual Artists Pty Ltd -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] quote of the week
I have found this thought provoking And I am left wondering about the English language; we have a word for a male dominated society patriarchal, and a word for a female dominated society but I am at a loss to come up with the right word for a society in which the male and female genders are represented equally. Perhaps the feminist society. Thats the world Id like to live in Warm hug Julie From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Jo Watson Sent: Sunday, 2 April 2006 9:22 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] quote of the week So true, Mary. Women are the harshest judges of eachother. Some of the pregnancy/birth/parenting forums I read show this to be true in almost every topic. :( Jo On 02/04/2006, at 3:58 PM, Mary Murphy wrote: If I could wave my wand, our culture would be matriarchal...one of peace, of softness...where children are beloved, where women are revered and taken care of, where birth and mothering are honored and supported. Raven Lang Midwifery Today Issue 70 Wish this was true. It seems to me that women judge each other harshly. MM
Re: [ozmidwifery] article FYI
Thanks, Leanne. Good reminder of why we don't go to hosp to have our babies. Gloria leanne wynne wrote: Increasing Angle of Episiotomy Reduces Third-Degree Tear Risk Reuters Health Information 2006. © 2006 Reuters Ltd. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. Reuters and the Reuters sphere logo are registered trademarks and trademarks of the Reuters group of companies around the world. NEW YORK (Reuters Health) Mar 16 - The larger the angle of episiotomy, the lower the risk of anal sphincter injury, a new study shows. Injury to the anal sphincter due to a third-degree perineal tear during vaginal delivery is the leading cause of fecal incontinence in healthy women, Dr. Colm O'Herlihy of University College Dublin and colleagues note. While the risk of third-degree tear is lower with mediolateral episiotomy compared with midline episiotomy, they add, it remains unclear what effect the angle of incision has on injury risk. To investigate, the researchers looked at 100 primiparous women, all of whom had right mediolateral episiotomy. Fifty-four of the women sustained third-degree tears, while the rest did not and served as the control group. All were evaluated three months after delivery. The mean episiotomy angle in the cases was 30 degrees, compared with 38 degrees for controls. Nearly 10% of women with an angle of episiotomy below 25 degrees had third-degree tears, compared with 0.05% of women with an episiotomy angle above 45 degrees. With every 6.3-degree increase in angle size, the relative risk of third-degree tear was reduced by 50%. Women with third-degree tears were not significantly more likely to report problems with fecal incontinence, the researchers note. Nonetheless, a range of continence scores was seen in both groups, indicating that continence compromise can occur postnatally, regardless of mode of delivery or presence or absence of anal sphincter injury, they add. Therefore, it remains important to question and advise women on this problem in the postnatal period. They conclude: If right mediolateral episiotomy is indicated, the angle of this should be as large as possible in order to reduce the incidence, and thus the potential sequelae, of obstetric anal sphincter injury. BJOG 2006;113:190-194. Leanne Wynne Midwife in charge of Women's Business Mildura Aboriginal Health Service Mob 0418 371862 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please?
I wish all of you could have been here in Vancouver for the Breech Birth Conference. Maggie Banks (N.Z.) and Jane Evans (Brit.) did the midwives proud. Gloria Mary Murphy wrote: Jo, I was exploring the thought that if the breech was stuck for so long it could have put uneven pressure on the lower segment for a long time and perhaps cause dehishance or pressure areas which could lead to necrosis and the following events. Not a criticism, merely a lateral thought. As a supporter of breech vaginal birth, I am interested in all the possible ramifications. It was a long delay. Perhaps for this individual woman a long delay with a cephalic presentation would be the same, however, the head is round and smooth and would cause even pressures? Who knows, as I said, just exploring possibilities. MM Do you really think that a massive PPH 2.5 weeks (WEEKS, not hours or days) after a ceaser that resulted in a nasty uterine infection is most likely to do with the breech presentation? If the babe was cephalic she still might have stuck at full dilation and had a c/s - would she have been less likely to have gotten an infection or have the PPH? At 6:21 PM +0800 2/4/06, Mary Murphy wrote: I guess this is why some advise c/s for breech, but it seems that this, She laboured to fully without any analgesia then pushed valiantly for 3.5 hrs is the problem. I was led to believe that if progress of the breech halted, then it was the time to change options. Mm -- Jo Bourne Virtual Artists Pty Ltd -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please?
Hi Miriam, I broke out in goose bumps upon reading your post. I work at this hospital know of your friend, but have been off this weekend didn't know about this sad event until I saw it here. My sympathies to all. Please rest assured that she will be supported in her efforts to continue to breast feed if she wishes to. Hopefully her supply won't have been too badly effected . Kind regards Carol Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 18:18:55 +1000 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please? To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Hellowisewomen, Ipostedafewweeksagoaboutafriendofminewitha breechbabeat37+weekswhowasthinkingaboutan independentmidwifeforsupportatEastGippsland hospital.Ipromisedtoupdateyousoheregoes... ShehadSROMattermwithSOOCsoonafter.Laboured beautifullyathomeandonadmissiontolabourward was5-6cmanddoingwell.HerlovelyOBsameinand waswithherfortherestofthelabour. Shelabouredtofullywithoutanyanalgesiathen pushedvaliantlyfor3.5hrs.Theyhadbumonview whentheypartedherlabiabutababewhoseemedwell andtrulystuck.Aftersomediscussionitwasdecided togototheatreforsection.OBwasagainlovelywith skintoskininOT,nicefeedplusdadcuttingthe cord.Thisdespiteatrickysectionduetobabebeing solow. Therewassomedamagetoherbladder(itwas'nicked') plustotheupperposteriorvaginalwallwiththe difficultyofextractingherlittleonefromsucha low/tightposition.Shehadaprettyheftyloss(1000 ml,althoughwhoknowswithC/Sasdocumentedbya recentthread!). Sherecoveredwellbeingfitandhealthy,goinghome onday5.Hospitalcalledthenextdaytoaskherto comebackinforABprophylaxisforherdaughteras theanaesthetistattendinghadjustbeendiagnosed withwhoopingcough(WHAT!!).Backshewent,more worry,moredisruption.Twodayslatershehad significantabdotendernessandlowerbackpain,so backshewentagain.Nastyuterineinfection,onABs herself!!! Afteraweekoftreatmentthingsseemedtobe settling.Shewashome,feedinggoingwellandhermum visiting.Astheysatdowntodinnershefeltasmall gushofbloodandwenttothetoilettoinvestigate. Shecalledfromthebathroomforhelpandwhenhermum andpartnergottohershewaspale,unconsciousand lyinginahugepoolofblood. Ambulancewasgoingtotake15min,sotheybundled herintothecar,hazardlightsonandwentforit.At thehospitaltheygaveherblood,plateletsand gelofusineandcalledherOBin.After4-6hours thingsseemedtohavesettledandtheywereall keepingtheirfingerscrossed. Herconditiondeterioratedlaterintheeveningand theywenttotheatreforaDCandinvestigation.She wasinfullblownDICbynowsoconsentwasgainedfor anemergencyhysterectomy.WhenIspoketohersister todayshewasstillgroggybutok. WordscannotexpressthesadnessIfeel.Iamgoingto visitinacoupleofweekswhenkidsandclinical allowbutIamdesperatetodoanythingIcantohelp fromhere.Iknowshewillgetthe'youwon'tbeable tobreastfeedwiththatloss/trauma'talk,butIknow inmyheartifshecouldgetfeedinghappeningagain itwouldbeonenormal,beautifulthingshecould salvagefromthisexperience. Anythoughts,suggestions,assistancewouldbemost appreciated.IsowishIwerethere. Yoursinsisterhood,Miriam OnYahoo!7 Messenger-MakefreePC-to-PCcallstoyourfriendsoverseas. http://au.messenger.yahoo.com -- ThismailinglistissponsoredbyACEGraphics. Visithttp://www.acegraphics.com.autosubscribeorunsubscribe.Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please?
oh im so jealous ! how did bisits go? regards emilyGloria Lemay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wish all of you could have been here in Vancouver for the Breech Birth Conference. Maggie Banks (N.Z.) and Jane Evans (Brit.) did the midwives proud. GloriaMary Murphy wrote:Jo, I was exploring the thought that if the breech was stuck for so long it could have put uneven pressure on the lower segment for a long time and perhaps cause dehishance or pressure areas which could lead to necrosis and the following events. Not a criticism, merely a lateral thought. As a supporter of breech vaginal birth, I am interested in all the possible ramifications. It was a long delay. Perhaps for this individual woman a long delay with a cephalic presentation would be the same, however, the head is round and smooth and would cause even pressures? Who knows, as I said, just exploring possibilities. MMDo you really think that a massive PPH 2.5 weeks (WEEKS, not hours or days) after a ceaser that resulted in a nasty uterine infection is most likely to do with the breech presentation? If the babe was cephalic she still might have stuck at full dilation and had a c/s - would she have been less likely to have gotten an infection or have the PPH?At 6:21 PM +0800 2/4/06, Mary Murphy wrote:I guess this is why some advise c/s for breech, but it seems that this, ³She laboured to fully without any analgesia thenpushed valiantly for 3.5 hrs² is the problem. I was led to believe that if progress of the breech halted, then it was the time to change options. Mm -- Jo BourneVirtual Artists Pty Ltd--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1/min.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please?
Hi Miriam, What a sad, unfortunate story. Breastfeeding is probably even more important for this woman, as this will obviously be her last birth child. Perhaps if you could rally together some donor milk from friends that would be useful for her. To give her time if she feels she needs it, or doesnt want to feed at the moment because of the many meds shed be on.. at least bub would be getting breastmilk in the mean time... Love and strength to you EmilyCarol Van Lochem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi Miriam, I broke out in goose bumps upon reading your post. I work at this hospital know of your friend, but have been off this weekend didn't know about this sad event until I saw it here. My sympathies to all. Please rest assured that she will be supported in her efforts to continue to breast feed if she wishes to. Hopefully her supply won't have been too badly effected . Kind regards Carol Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 18:18:55 +1000 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please? To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Hellowisewomen, Ipostedafewweeksagoaboutafriendofminewitha breechbabeat37+weekswhowasthinkingaboutan independentmidwifeforsupportatEastGippsland hospital.Ipromisedtoupdateyousoheregoes... ShehadSROMattermwithSOOCsoonafter.Laboured beautifullyathomeandonadmissiontolabourward was5-6cmanddoingwell.HerlovelyOBsameinand waswithherfortherestofthelabour. Shelabouredtofullywithoutanyanalgesiathen pushedvaliantlyfor3.5hrs.Theyhadbumonview whentheypartedherlabiabutababewhoseemedwell andtrulystuck.Aftersomediscussionitwasdecided togototheatreforsection.OBwasagainlovelywith skintoskininOT,nicefeedplusdadcuttingthe cord.Thisdespiteatrickysectionduetobabebeing solow. Therewassomedamagetoherbladder(itwas'nicked') plustotheupperposteriorvaginalwallwiththe difficultyofextractingherlittleonefromsucha low/tightposition.Shehadaprettyheftyloss(1000 ml,althoughwhoknowswithC/Sasdocumentedbya recentthread!). Sherecoveredwellbeingfitandhealthy,goinghome onday5.Hospitalcalledthenextdaytoaskherto comebackinforABprophylaxisforherdaughteras theanaesthetistattendinghadjustbeendiagnosed withwhoopingcough(WHAT!!).Backshewent,more worry,moredisruption.Twodayslatershehad significantabdotendernessandlowerbackpain,so backshewentagain.Nastyuterineinfection,onABs herself!!! Afteraweekoftreatmentthingsseemedtobe settling.Shewashome,feedinggoingwellandhermum visiting.Astheysatdowntodinnershefeltasmall gushofbloodandwenttothetoilettoinvestigate. Shecalledfromthebathroomforhelpandwhenhermum andpartnergottohershewaspale,unconsciousand lyinginahugepoolofblood. Ambulancewasgoingtotake15min,sotheybundled herintothecar,hazardlightsonandwentforit.At thehospitaltheygaveherblood,plateletsand gelofusineandcalledherOBin.After4-6hours thingsseemedtohavesettledandtheywereall keepingtheirfingerscrossed. Herconditiondeterioratedlaterintheeveningand theywenttotheatreforaDCandinvestigation.She wasinfullblownDICbynowsoconsentwasgainedfor anemergencyhysterectomy.WhenIspoketohersister todayshewasstillgroggybutok. WordscannotexpressthesadnessIfeel.Iamgoingto visitinacoupleofweekswhenkidsandclinical allowbutIamdesperatetodoanythingIcantohelp fromhere.Iknowshewillgetthe'youwon'tbeable tobreastfeedwiththatloss/trauma'talk,butIknow inmyheartifshecouldgetfeedinghappeningagain itwouldbeonenormal,beautifulthingshecould salvagefromthisexperience. Anythoughts,suggestions,assistancewouldbemost appreciated.IsowishIwerethere. Yoursinsisterhood,Miriam OnYahoo!7 Messenger-MakefreePC-to-PCcallstoyourfriendsoverseas. http://au.messenger.yahoo.com -- ThismailinglistissponsoredbyACEGraphics. Visithttp://www.acegraphics.com.autosubscribeorunsubscribe.Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
[ozmidwifery] Just when you think the message isn't getting through...
This is a perfect example of why I keep pushing promotion to the mainstream and why its S important. Sometimes you feel like you are getting nowhere, sometimes you feel like you are going backwards, but then, you see you are actually going a million miles ahead our work can be completely invisible to us at times. Heres a first post from a new member: Hi everyone! Just thought I would pop my head up and say hello! Ive been reading the BB forums for a couple of months now so I thought it was about time I posted something. My husband and I have just started on our TTC journey! Its a very exciting time in our lives (we got married in Fiji in December 2005) and we are both ecstatic at the thought of becoming parents. Ive found BB to be an absolute wealth of information. Theres such a sense of community here, no-one will judge you and youll find all the support you could hope for from both mums and wanna-be-mums! I feel privileged to share my TTC ups and downs with such a lovely bunch of ladies. I love reading the birth stories. What an inspiration you all are!!! At times youve had me grinning like a fool, giggling hysterically or almost bawling my eyes out! I initially thought that I wouldnt be able to handle the pain of a natural birth and would have to opt for a voluntary C/Sbut after reading your stories, I have done a complete about-face and am now embracing the miracle of bringing our child/ren into the world by natural birth! See, its not that hard lets keep it up wonderful women!!! Best Regards, Kelly Zantey Creator, BellyBelly.com.au Gentle Solutions From Conception to Parenthood BellyBelly Birth Support - http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:Sad Story, any help please?
What are "bisits", I don't think we have those in Canada. :-) Gloria Emily wrote: oh im so jealous ! how did bisits go? regards emily Gloria Lemay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wish all of you could have been here in Vancouver for the Breech Birth Conference. Maggie Banks (N.Z.) and Jane Evans (Brit.) did the midwives proud. Gloria Mary Murphy wrote: Jo, I was exploring the thought that if the breech was stuck for so long it could have put uneven pressure on the lower segment for a long time and perhaps cause dehishance or pressure areas which could lead to necrosis and the following events. Not a criticism, merely a lateral thought. As a supporter of breech vaginal birth, I am interested in all the possible ramifications. It was a long delay. Perhaps for this individual woman a long delay with a cephalic presentation would be the same, however, the head is round and smooth and would cause even pressures? Who knows, as I said, just exploring possibilities. MM Do you really think that a massive PPH 2.5 weeks (WEEKS, not hours or days) after a ceaser that resulted in a nasty uterine infection is most likely to do with the breech presentation? If the babe was cephalic she still might have stuck at full dilation and had a c/s - would she have been less likely to have gotten an infection or have the PPH? At 6:21 PM +0800 2/4/06, Mary Murphy wrote: I guess this is why some advise c/s for breech, but it seems that this, She laboured to fully without any analgesia then pushed valiantly for 3.5 hrs is the problem. I was led to believe that if progress of the breech halted, then it was the time to change options. Mm -- Jo Bourne Virtual Artists Pty Ltd -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1/min.
