Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Rob, I use a D-Lab 2 and the prints I get are quite sharp and crisp (printed as is, no changes from the operators, minimal USM from my part - I much dislike garrish sharpening of most digital prints nowadays). Except that once it happened that I received prints obviously not as sharp as I sent. Looking closer it became apparent that red and blue channels were grossly mis-registered. You may want to closely inspect your prints for that. Servus, Alin Rob wrote: RS Has anyone here done any experiments to determine the optimum sharpening to RS apply to image files destined to print on a D-Lab 2? I just received a 12x8 D- RS Lab 2 test print back and details appear far less acute than a print from the RS same file made on a relatively inexpensive Epson ink jet at A4 :-( RS TIA, \
Re[2]: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Strange, I thought there is nothing to focus about lasers, after all those are in-phase, rectilinear beams with extremely low dispersion!? Could it be the so called focus procedure is rather an alignment process to insure the three laser spots overlap? Servus, Alin Butch wrote: BB There is also the possibility that the focus on the d-lab is off a touch. I BB never worked with a d-lab, but the frontiers have a routine that focuses the BB 3 lasers, so I assume the same is true with the agfa. Try giving them a BB negative you know is in sharp focus and see how the result comes out. It is BB also possible that they don't realize that their machine has drifted out of BB focus. That happened to me at Eckerds. My analog Fuji was a touch soft. I BB didn't notice until a new customer brought in a large order, complained BB that it was soft, took a couple frame to be printed at a competitor and BB brought them back. I then got to adjust focus on the machine without the BB proper focus neg. Luckily I have a masters in seat of the pants. :) It is BB also possible that they keep their focus slightly soft to minimize dust BB spots. An old pro lab I used to use did that. BB Butch
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Alin Flaider wrote: Strange, I thought there is nothing to focus about lasers, after all those are in-phase, rectilinear beams with extremely low dispersion!? Could it be the so called focus procedure is rather an alignment process to insure the three laser spots overlap? It's unlikely that the width of the beam at its source is going to be exactly the same size as the desired spot size on the paper. Hence focussing is required to change the size. S
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
On 30 Nov 2004 at 16:58, Bruce Dayton wrote: Now I am going to have to do a little experimenting. I'll let you know of my findings. One thing I do recall is that the D-Lab prints at 400 dpi rather than the common 300 dpi of the Frontiers. Hi Bruce, I tried to send you an email off list yesterday but unfortunately I got the big bounce, the essence of which was: I have produced a test image based on a 1:1 crop of a *ist D image processed in PS CS RAW with minimal sharpening at an output res of 4096x2734 px. It also contains a matrix of the crop sharpened with various settings plus a reference image and MacBeth colour checker reference. I sent it to my printer and they are pumping out a series of prints for me at no cost with and without borders at 12x8 and 18x12 on gloss and matt papers, I should have the results by Monday I guess. The print using PS and the machine isn't set up any special way however it's a bit of black box to the lab it seems. In any case they were impressed with the test image and it may have enlightened them a little, apparently one print is pretty scrappy after being passed around to all the staff :-) If you (or anyone else) would like a copy please let me know, it's about 4.5MB. Cheers, Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Rob Studdert mused: If you (or anyone else) would like a copy please let me know, it's about 4.5MB. Yes please.
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Yes, I would like a copy. Just go ahead and send it to my email account. I'll probably have my lab print it too. -- Best regards, Bruce Thursday, December 2, 2004, 8:26:06 PM, you wrote: RS On 30 Nov 2004 at 16:58, Bruce Dayton wrote: Now I am going to have to do a little experimenting. I'll let you know of my findings. One thing I do recall is that the D-Lab prints at 400 dpi rather than the common 300 dpi of the Frontiers. RS Hi Bruce, RS I tried to send you an email off list yesterday but unfortunately I got the big RS bounce, the essence of which was: RS I have produced a test image based on a 1:1 crop of a *ist D image processed in RS PS CS RAW with minimal sharpening at an output res of 4096x2734 px. It also RS contains a matrix of the crop sharpened with various settings plus a reference RS image and MacBeth colour checker reference. RS I sent it to my printer and they are pumping out a series of prints for me at RS no cost with and without borders at 12x8 and 18x12 on gloss and matt papers, I RS should have the results by Monday I guess. The print using PS and the machine RS isn't set up any special way however it's a bit of black box to the lab it RS seems. In any case they were impressed with the test image and it may have RS enlightened them a little, apparently one print is pretty scrappy after being RS passed around to all the staff :-) RS If you (or anyone else) would like a copy please let me know, it's about 4.5MB. RS Cheers, RS Rob Studdert RS HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA RS Tel +61-2-9554-4110 RS UTC(GMT) +10 Hours RS [EMAIL PROTECTED] RS http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ RS Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re[2]: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Alin wrote: Strange, I thought there is nothing to focus about lasers, after all those are in-phase, rectilinear beams with extremely low dispersion!? Could it be the so called focus procedure is rather an alignment process to insure the three laser spots overlap? Servus, Alin That is correct, though I believe they call it focus. You want all three lasers at the same point or you get a kind of fringing effect similar to what you described responding to Rob. Butch
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Hi Bruce, do you know if the D-Lab accepts Adobe1998 colour space files? In one lab they told me so, but they don't know that exactly... Good light! fra
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Rob, By two step, I meant pretty much what you appear to be doing - A small amount of sharpening initially, regardless of final image size, and a final sharpening based on the printed size. Kenneth Waller -Original Message- From: Rob Studdert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints On 30 Nov 2004 at 19:54, Kenneth Waller wrote: Rob, not sure what D-Lab 2 is but I've lately been doing a two step sharpening with unsharp mask, (an initial sharpening when I set white point/black point and a final sharpening when I set the final print size.) more or less following the same procedure laid out at http://www.naturescapes.net/122004/tg1204.htm and the results are better than I've achieved in several years of printing with my Epsons using a one step sharpening. Hi Kenneth, The d-lab.2 is an Agfa digital mini-lab capable of producing up to 12x18 prints on regular photographic paper from digital image files. http://www.agfa.co.uk/minilab/minilab_info.html Thanks for posting the link, it's a decent artical but I'm not sure what you mean by two step? In my full digital workflow I'm currently sharpening the image in the RAW convertor for the best compromise between edge artifacts and edge contrast and minimising bloom artifacts, which varies considerably between images. Then once in PS I do a very acute sharpen using a USM action which has a very small radius. I'm pretty happy at this point however I feel that there is likely an optimum degree of sharpening for any output resolution using this particular printer. So that was really the basis for my query. Cheers PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
From what I remember, it does accept that color space. When I tried it though, I wasn't happy with the results. I know the lab was working on it. I switched over to sRGB and haven't had enough reason to go back and see if they got it resolved. HTH, Bruce Tuesday, November 30, 2004, 5:09:45 AM, you wrote: F Hi Bruce, F do you know if the D-Lab accepts Adobe1998 colour space files? In one F lab they told me so, but they don't know that exactly... F Good light! Ffra
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Hi Rob There is also the possibility that the focus on the d-lab is off a touch. I never worked with a d-lab, but the frontiers have a routine that focuses the 3 lasers, so I assume the same is true with the agfa. Try giving them a negative you know is in sharp focus and see how the result comes out. It is also possible that they don't realize that their machine has drifted out of focus. That happened to me at Eckerds. My analog Fuji was a touch soft. I didn't notice until a new customer brought in a large order, complained that it was soft, took a couple frame to be printed at a competitor and brought them back. I then got to adjust focus on the machine without the proper focus neg. Luckily I have a masters in seat of the pants. :) It is also possible that they keep their focus slightly soft to minimize dust spots. An old pro lab I used to use did that. Butch
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
- Original Message - From: Bruce Dayton Subject: Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints From what I remember, it does accept that color space. When I tried it though, I wasn't happy with the results. I know the lab was working on it. I switched over to sRGB and haven't had enough reason to go back and see if they got it resolved. The industry standard seems to be sRGB. William Robb
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
On Dec 1, 2004, at 2:09 AM, Frantisek wrote: do you know if the D-Lab accepts Adobe1998 colour space files? In one lab they told me so, but they don't know that exactly... AFAIK the D-Lab completely ignores embedded profiles and just assumes that everything is sRGB. Cheers, - Dave http://www.digistar.com/~dmann/
OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Hi Team, Has anyone here done any experiments to determine the optimum sharpening to apply to image files destined to print on a D-Lab 2? I just received a 12x8 D- Lab 2 test print back and details appear far less acute than a print from the same file made on a relatively inexpensive Epson ink jet at A4 :-( TIA, Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Rob, not sure what D-Lab 2 is but I've lately been doing a two step sharpening with unsharp mask, (an initial sharpening when I set white point/black point and a final sharpening when I set the final print size.) more or less following the same procedure laid out at http://www.naturescapes.net/122004/tg1204.htm and the results are better than I've achieved in several years of printing with my Epsons using a one step sharpening. Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: Rob Studdert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints Hi Team, Has anyone here done any experiments to determine the optimum sharpening to apply to image files destined to print on a D-Lab 2? I just received a 12x8 D- Lab 2 test print back and details appear far less acute than a print from the same file made on a relatively inexpensive Epson ink jet at A4 :-( TIA, Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
Hello Rob, My local lab uses D-Lab 2 and D-Lab 3 printers. I haven't noticed any particular softness with printing to them. When I print locally, the software used to print does seem to make some difference - quite commonly I print with QImage and it rezes up and sharpens the image before sending to the driver. It is common for my prints from the HP 7960 to look sharper than the D-Lab. Now I am going to have to do a little experimenting. I'll let you know of my findings. One thing I do recall is that the D-Lab prints at 400 dpi rather than the common 300 dpi of the Frontiers. -- Best regards, Bruce Tuesday, November 30, 2004, 5:28:23 PM, you wrote: RS Hi Team, RS Has anyone here done any experiments to determine the optimum sharpening to RS apply to image files destined to print on a D-Lab 2? I just received a 12x8 D- RS Lab 2 test print back and details appear far less acute than a print from the RS same file made on a relatively inexpensive Epson ink jet at A4 :-( RS TIA, RS Rob Studdert RS HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA RS Tel +61-2-9554-4110 RS UTC(GMT) +10 Hours RS [EMAIL PROTECTED] RS http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ RS Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
- Original Message - From: Rob Studdert Subject: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints Hi Team, Has anyone here done any experiments to determine the optimum sharpening to apply to image files destined to print on a D-Lab 2? I just received a 12x8 D- Lab 2 test print back and details appear far less acute than a print from the same file made on a relatively inexpensive Epson ink jet at A4 :-( You will need to work with the lab on this one. The degree of sharpening is user defined, and can be altered to suit the market. I find that I need to keep in lab sharpening quite low to compensate for the stupid tits that oversharpen their work. It makes it a bit of a pain, as I either have to go into the setup and reset the sharpness for my own work, or profile my work to match the machine (which is what I do, it's too easy to forget to change a setting back when finished). Inkjet printers are inherently sharper than digital to photo paper printers. William Robb
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
On 30 Nov 2004 at 19:54, Kenneth Waller wrote: Rob, not sure what D-Lab 2 is but I've lately been doing a two step sharpening with unsharp mask, (an initial sharpening when I set white point/black point and a final sharpening when I set the final print size.) more or less following the same procedure laid out at http://www.naturescapes.net/122004/tg1204.htm and the results are better than I've achieved in several years of printing with my Epsons using a one step sharpening. Hi Kenneth, The d-lab.2 is an Agfa digital mini-lab capable of producing up to 12x18 prints on regular photographic paper from digital image files. http://www.agfa.co.uk/minilab/minilab_info.html Thanks for posting the link, it's a decent artical but I'm not sure what you mean by two step? In my full digital workflow I'm currently sharpening the image in the RAW convertor for the best compromise between edge artifacts and edge contrast and minimising bloom artifacts, which varies considerably between images. Then once in PS I do a very acute sharpen using a USM action which has a very small radius. I'm pretty happy at this point however I feel that there is likely an optimum degree of sharpening for any output resolution using this particular printer. So that was really the basis for my query. Cheers On 30 Nov 2004 at 16:58, Bruce Dayton wrote: Hello Rob, My local lab uses D-Lab 2 and D-Lab 3 printers. I haven't noticed any particular softness with printing to them. When I print locally, the software used to print does seem to make some difference - quite commonly I print with QImage and it rezes up and sharpens the image before sending to the driver. It is common for my prints from the HP 7960 to look sharper than the D-Lab. Now I am going to have to do a little experimenting. I'll let you know of my findings. One thing I do recall is that the D-Lab prints at 400 dpi rather than the common 300 dpi of the Frontiers. Hi Bruce, Good point, I don't have a clue which application they actually print from, I know the results from Q-image and PS vary somewhat from what I've seen on the web. I think I'll likely put together a composite image using the same crop sharpened using various methods and just see how it prints? I look forward to your report when you get a chance to run some experiments. Cheers, On 30 Nov 2004 at 18:57, William Robb wrote: You will need to work with the lab on this one. The degree of sharpening is user defined, and can be altered to suit the market. Yes I realise this now, so each new printing service will likely have to be assessed individually regardless of their lab type :-( Inkjet printers are inherently sharper than digital to photo paper printers. Interesting, I know sublimates are usually pretty bad WRT acutance and I can appreicate that the individual ink droplets on ink jet prints don't spread on the right paper so are likely perceived as more acute. But the d-lab print was softer than I've seen from traditional photo prints. More testing to do. Cheers, Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: OT Sharpening for D-Lab 2 Prints
On Dec 1, 2004, at 4:33 PM, Rob Studdert wrote: The d-lab.2 is an Agfa digital mini-lab capable of producing up to 12x18 prints on regular photographic paper from digital image files. The lab I use has one of these, together with a D-Lab 3. The colours never came out quite right - always a little too red (I suspect the setup has a lot to do with this). Sharpness was never an issue for me. My lab has a couple of self-serve kiosks where you can plug in a memory card for automatic upload to the machine. These have an option to disable the Agfa Image Enhancement so-called feature. I selected that every time. This might totally disable the machine's sharpening, or it might just disable the colour and contrast adjustments. I ended up buying an Epson 2100 printer and I'm getting much better results from it. It's just a pity that I can't buy any ink at the moment - I'm told that the Epson agents in Australia (who supply Epson NZ) screwed up their sales forecast and ran out of stock. I have everything I need now except light cyan. I'd be desperate now if it wasn't for the fact that I've moved house and haven't set up the printer yet (and I don't know where I packed my other inks). I have a few more complaints about Epson support but I'll save those for another day :) Cheers, - Dave http://www.digistar.com/~dmann/
