Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Bill Gibson]

Not to mention the expert color coordination and camouflage. The tape of
invisibility, juxtaposed with the brightest and the most reflective bits. A
study in beausage. Melly Kalikimaka all!

On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Way Rebb  wrote:

> Zip tied duct tape mud flaps half way through their second winter
> (okay a No Cal winter):
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/wrebb/5289538488/
>
> A good rugged bike deserves good rugged mud flaps.  Of course if this
> was a custom or a Betty I'd use Monster Tape, but duct tape is plenty
> good for the Hillborne.  :)
>
> -Ray
>
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-- 
Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Doug Litchfield]

Oh my !!!
Only in the underground environment..
My Western Electric mentor told me NEVER use zip ties. Pros always sew their
cables...(insert smiley face here)
So now, I can't help it..I sew pumps to top bars, cable housing to the
frame, bags to handlbar or saddle..christmas lights to railings, plants to
stakes.

D.L.


On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:02 PM, George Schick  wrote:

> I learned quickly when I began working in the telecom industry (over
> 40 years ago) that BLACK zip-ties are the ONLY ones that will remain
> largely unaffected by weather and UV radiation.  All other colors
> eventually fade, crack, and break.  That's also the reason why the
> outer sheath on plastic insulated telephone cable is black.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Bruce]

And judging by the colors seen, this must have been Red Green's bike






From: Angus 
To: RBW Owners Bunch 
Sent: Sat, December 25, 2010 6:25:30 AM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

Ray,

That takes the cake!

Merry Christmass everyone!

Angus

On Dec 24, 11:30 pm, Way Rebb  wrote:
> Zip tied duct tape mud flaps half way through their second winter
> (okay a No Cal winter):
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/wrebb/5289538488/
>
> A good rugged bike deserves good rugged mud flaps.  Of course if this
> was a custom or a Betty I'd use Monster Tape, but duct tape is plenty
> good for the Hillborne.  :)
>
> -Ray

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[JimD]

The google tells the tale:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_tie

Inventor is said to Thomas & Betts - seems to be a corporate creation.
-Jimd

On Dec 23, 2010, at 10:04 PM, grant wrote:


I hope the inventor of the zip-tie didn't die broke.

Beth

THIS---forget about the pro-Riv context or any associations---THIS
quote belongs in a coffee table book. I wish I'd said it, but I'm glad
to know the person who did. There's only one complicated word in it
("inventor"), but it was necessary in this case.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Robert Zeidler]

...and not in anyone of those situations listed below, will you find a Ty-Wrap 
used to secure metal to metal.

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 24, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Angus  wrote:

> 
> http://www-public.tnb.com/ps/pubint/index.cgi?a=heritage
> 
> From the Thomas & Betts web site:
> 
> "In 1958, Thomas & Betts secured a place in engineering history when
> it developed the Ty-Rap® cable tie to facilitate assembling wire
> harnesses in airplanes. In the first month, sales were $350. Today,
> Thomas & Betts sells hundreds of millions of dollars of cable ties in
> 14 colors, 15 designs, 10 materials and multiple lengths. T&B cable
> ties can be found on thousands of products ranging from motorcycles to
> spacecraft."
> 
> ...and bicycles!
> 
> I'm not sure about the specific inventor(s), but the company seems to
> be doing OK.
> 
> Thomas and Betts makes Ty-Raps with a metal "ratchet" (typically
> plastic)...I had not thought about this before, but there appears to
> be a hierarchy in the Zip-tie/Ty-Rap market.
> 
> No more cheap Zip-ties for me!
> 
> Angus
> 
> 
> On Dec 23, 2:44 pm, Beth H  wrote:
>> On Dec 23, 2:16 pm, robert zeidler  wrote:
>> 
>>> With no disrespect to anyone, especially during this joyous time, plastic
>>> ties on a +/- $4000.00 bike is just atrocious.  Learn the use of a few basic
>>> tools and use the correct fasteners.  For a "get-you-home" or temp repair,
>>> OK, but in the words of my first shop-teacher, it's "hack".
>> 
>> I suggest that while Rivendell definitely markets to the rider with "a
>> job and bicycle prorities", the underlying aesthetic of Rivendell
>> bikes is absolutely a loving and benign sense of "hack". For evidence,
>> I submit the old tan Atlantis flyer of several years ago, which showed
>> a number of Atlantii (??) in various types of build-up, with all
>> manner of baskets, zip-ties and other funkinesses on them. I'd also
>> look up Grant's multiple articles/photo essays on "Beausage" (a word I
>> still stumble over when I actually try to use it in a sentence because
>> it feels made-up), all of which practically glorify the bike that is
>> well-ridden, a bit dirty, maybe even a little dented and has paint
>> worn off the edges of the fork crown and all the stays.
>> 
>> While some folks may ride a $4,000.00 bike because it's spendy or
>> fancy, some folks may choose to ride a $4,000.00 Rivendell simply
>> because it's well-made, and durable enough to see them out. And for
>> those of us who fall into that category, there are lovely zip-ties.
>> 
>> I hope the inventor of the zip-tie didn't die broke.
>> 
>> Beth
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Robert Zeidler]

Well said Patrick and may I add-every person reading this is a good corporate 
citizen.

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 24, 2010, at 12:43 AM, JimD  wrote:

> Well, once you get your mind right zip ties just might be the preferred 
> solution in many
> applications. Nuts, screws, and washers are so yesterday.
> ...as you can see, I'm converted.
> -JimD
> 
> On Dec 23, 2010, at 9:15 PM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> 
>> I am with Robert here in his deprecation of zip ties: why use zip ties
>> if you can find something that works and looks better without (third
>> condition) undue (note the qualification) exertion or expense? A pop
>> rivet or simple nut 'n' bolt are often very easy, are certainly
>> sturdier and, IME, look better in most places.
>> 
>> Beside, any Rivendell is an elitist bike, even a slumming Sam Hill
>> (What? You say that $1250 for f + f + hs is not elitist? Tell that to
>> the next person buying a $500 Trek); and we might as well admit that
>> and dress them up accordingly.
>> 
>> OTOH, if someone wants to use zip ties on his $10K Cervelo or $8K Rene
>> Herse or $2500 Sam Hill -- to attach his duct tape mudflap, of course
>> -- why not? It's just weird, not evil, and the world is usually better
>> off for a little harmless weirdness -- lest we all become excessively
>> good little corporate citizens with bland hair and in bland suits.
>> 
>> There. I've contributed both to the objection and the defense and now
>> I feel better.
>> 
>> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 5:36 PM, erik jensen  wrote:
>>> robert,
>>> 
>>> for as long as i've been on this list, any number of folks have felt the
>>> need, as you did, to tell us how stupid/silly/hack we are for putting
>>> zip-ties on thousand dollar bicycles. and, for as long as i've been on this
>>> list, people have been responded to appropriately to insult with defense of
>>> the practice. it's not surprising, if a bit boring.
>>> 
>>> erik
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 6:25 PM, robert zeidler 
>>> wrote:
 
 Well said.  Regardless of one's motivation and intentions, these are
 pricey bikes to get to the final build-up.  Not trying to appear as some
 elitist, but it is what what is.  Grant uses these things because he's
 experimenting with stuff.  I've never received any bike from them built-up
 with plastic.  Geez why does everything have to become some class-warfare
 thing?  It's a comment on workmanship not status.
 
 On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:56 PM, JimD  wrote:
> 
> Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to do
> so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
> They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.
> Of course some have made the same claims for duct tape and even bailing
> wire.
> -JimD
> On Dec 23, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Beth H wrote:
> 
> On Dec 23, 2:16 pm, robert zeidler  wrote:
> 
> With no disrespect to anyone, especially during this joyous time, plastic
> 
> ties on a +/- $4000.00 bike is just atrocious.  Learn the use of a few
> basic
> 
> tools and use the correct fasteners.  For a "get-you-home" or temp
> repair,
> 
> OK, but in the words of my first shop-teacher, it's "hack".
> 
> I suggest that while Rivendell definitely markets to the rider with "a
> job and bicycle prorities", the underlying aesthetic of Rivendell
> bikes is absolutely a loving and benign sense of "hack". For evidence,
> I submit the old tan Atlantis flyer of several years ago, which showed
> a number of Atlantii (??) in various types of build-up, with all
> manner of baskets, zip-ties and other funkinesses on them. I'd also
> look up Grant's multiple articles/photo essays on "Beausage" (a word I
> still stumble over when I actually try to use it in a sentence because
> it feels made-up), all of which practically glorify the bike that is
> well-ridden, a bit dirty, maybe even a little dented and has paint
> worn off the edges of the fork crown and all the stays.
> 
> While some folks may ride a $4,000.00 bike because it's spendy or
> fancy, some folks may choose to ride a $4,000.00 Rivendell simply
> because it's well-made, and durable enough to see them out. And for
> those of us who fall into that category, there are lovely zip-ties.
> 
> I hope the inventor of the zip-tie didn't die broke.
> 
> Beth
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Robert Zeidler]

I love it!

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 24, 2010, at 1:50 AM, rob markwardt  wrote:

> I always tell my 7th grade students...focus on yourself, not what
> others are doing.
> 
> On Dec 23, 10:34 pm, Mike  wrote:
>> On Dec 23, 9:15 pm, PATRICK MOORE  wrote:
>> 
>>> I am with Robert here in his deprecation of zip ties: why use zip ties
>>> if you can find something that works and looks better without (third
>>> condition) undue (note the qualification) exertion or expense? A pop
>>> rivet or simple nut 'n' bolt are often very easy, are certainly
>>> sturdier and, IME, look better in most places.
>> 
>> My response:
>> 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c&feature=related
>> 
>> ;>)
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[JimD]

Well, once you get your mind right zip ties just might be the  
preferred solution in many

applications. Nuts, screws, and washers are so yesterday.
...as you can see, I'm converted.
-JimD

On Dec 23, 2010, at 9:15 PM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:


I am with Robert here in his deprecation of zip ties: why use zip ties
if you can find something that works and looks better without (third
condition) undue (note the qualification) exertion or expense? A pop
rivet or simple nut 'n' bolt are often very easy, are certainly
sturdier and, IME, look better in most places.

Beside, any Rivendell is an elitist bike, even a slumming Sam Hill
(What? You say that $1250 for f + f + hs is not elitist? Tell that to
the next person buying a $500 Trek); and we might as well admit that
and dress them up accordingly.

OTOH, if someone wants to use zip ties on his $10K Cervelo or $8K Rene
Herse or $2500 Sam Hill -- to attach his duct tape mudflap, of course
-- why not? It's just weird, not evil, and the world is usually better
off for a little harmless weirdness -- lest we all become excessively
good little corporate citizens with bland hair and in bland suits.

There. I've contributed both to the objection and the defense and now
I feel better.

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 5:36 PM, erik jensen   
wrote:

robert,

for as long as i've been on this list, any number of folks have  
felt the

need, as you did, to tell us how stupid/silly/hack we are for putting
zip-ties on thousand dollar bicycles. and, for as long as i've been  
on this
list, people have been responded to appropriately to insult with  
defense of

the practice. it's not surprising, if a bit boring.

erik

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 6:25 PM, robert zeidler >

wrote:


Well said.  Regardless of one's motivation and intentions, these are
pricey bikes to get to the final build-up.  Not trying to appear  
as some
elitist, but it is what what is.  Grant uses these things because  
he's
experimenting with stuff.  I've never received any bike from them  
built-up
with plastic.  Geez why does everything have to become some class- 
warfare

thing?  It's a comment on workmanship not status.

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:56 PM, JimD   
wrote:


Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for  
me to do

so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.
Of course some have made the same claims for duct tape and even  
bailing

wire.
-JimD
On Dec 23, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Beth H wrote:

On Dec 23, 2:16 pm, robert zeidler   
wrote:


With no disrespect to anyone, especially during this joyous time,  
plastic


ties on a +/- $4000.00 bike is just atrocious.  Learn the use of  
a few

basic

tools and use the correct fasteners.  For a "get-you-home" or temp
repair,

OK, but in the words of my first shop-teacher, it's "hack".

I suggest that while Rivendell definitely markets to the rider  
with "a

job and bicycle prorities", the underlying aesthetic of Rivendell
bikes is absolutely a loving and benign sense of "hack". For  
evidence,
I submit the old tan Atlantis flyer of several years ago, which  
showed

a number of Atlantii (??) in various types of build-up, with all
manner of baskets, zip-ties and other funkinesses on them. I'd also
look up Grant's multiple articles/photo essays on "Beausage" (a  
word I
still stumble over when I actually try to use it in a sentence  
because
it feels made-up), all of which practically glorify the bike that  
is

well-ridden, a bit dirty, maybe even a little dented and has paint
worn off the edges of the fork crown and all the stays.

While some folks may ride a $4,000.00 bike because it's spendy or
fancy, some folks may choose to ride a $4,000.00 Rivendell simply
because it's well-made, and durable enough to see them out. And for
those of us who fall into that category, there are lovely zip-ties.

I hope the inventor of the zip-tie didn't die broke.

Beth

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Michael DiBenedetto]

^^^!Velcro!^^^

Michael DiBenedetto
www.lifeforcemassage.com
3190 Old Tunnel Rd. Suite C
Lafayette, CA. 94549
925-899-2785

On Dec 23, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Ray Shine  wrote:

> Wow!  I've always used zipties for fendres and baskets. I'm curious how one 
> efficiently mounts a basket to a front rack with anything other than zip 
> ties?  Pix to back it up?
> 
> From: Philip Williamson 
> To: RBW Owners Bunch 
> Sent: Thu, December 23, 2010 5:26:24 PM
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again
> 
> 
> On Dec 23, 2:18 pm, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> > On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 13:56 -0800, JimD wrote:
> >
> > > Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to
> > > do so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
> > > They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.
> >
> > Yes, but the Saluki doesn't present those problems.
> >
> > And yes, in this case zip ties are a hack and all the koolaid in the
> > world isn't going to change that.
> 
> I'm pretty sure we're talking about mudflaps, not fenders. Nuts and
> bolts for mudflaps are more of a hack than zipties.
> The couture solution would be to have two brass snaps on the trailing
> edge of every Honjo fender, and 'artisan' mudflaps that matched...
> 
> Philip
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Kelly Sleeper]

Patrick,

Thank you for the below argument!!  I"m quoting you to my wife as an
excuse to purchase the Poncho and Rain Hat on Riv which she thinks is
weird.. and I just quoted it to her verbally as I stated I needed it
for my mental well being.. saftey and individualism.

Owe ya a beer next one of these days.

Kelly


PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> -- why not? It's just weird, not evil, and the world is usually better
> off for a little harmless weirdness -- lest we all become excessively
> good little corporate citizens with bland hair and in bland suits.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[PATRICK MOORE]

Toe straps, of course. What else? -- So much more elegant. (Sorry,
no pix -- my last basket went out the door some five years ago; but
trust me ...)

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Ray Shine  wrote:
> Wow!  I've always used zipties for fendres and baskets. I'm curious how one
> efficiently mounts a basket to a front rack with anything other than zip
> ties?  Pix to back it up?
>
> 
> From: Philip Williamson 
> To: RBW Owners Bunch 
> Sent: Thu, December 23, 2010 5:26:24 PM
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2:18 pm, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>> On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 13:56 -0800, JimD wrote:
>>
>> > Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to
>> > do so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
>> > They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.
>>
>> Yes, but the Saluki doesn't present those problems.
>>
>> And yes, in this case zip ties are a hack and all the koolaid in the
>> world isn't going to change that.
>
> I'm pretty sure we're talking about mudflaps, not fenders. Nuts and
> bolts for mudflaps are more of a hack than zipties.
> The couture solution would be to have two brass snaps on the trailing
> edge of every Honjo fender, and 'artisan' mudflaps that matched...
>
> Philip
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[PATRICK MOORE]

I am with Robert here in his deprecation of zip ties: why use zip ties
if you can find something that works and looks better without (third
condition) undue (note the qualification) exertion or expense? A pop
rivet or simple nut 'n' bolt are often very easy, are certainly
sturdier and, IME, look better in most places.

Beside, any Rivendell is an elitist bike, even a slumming Sam Hill
(What? You say that $1250 for f + f + hs is not elitist? Tell that to
the next person buying a $500 Trek); and we might as well admit that
and dress them up accordingly.

OTOH, if someone wants to use zip ties on his $10K Cervelo or $8K Rene
Herse or $2500 Sam Hill -- to attach his duct tape mudflap, of course
-- why not? It's just weird, not evil, and the world is usually better
off for a little harmless weirdness -- lest we all become excessively
good little corporate citizens with bland hair and in bland suits.

There. I've contributed both to the objection and the defense and now
I feel better.

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 5:36 PM, erik jensen  wrote:
> robert,
>
> for as long as i've been on this list, any number of folks have felt the
> need, as you did, to tell us how stupid/silly/hack we are for putting
> zip-ties on thousand dollar bicycles. and, for as long as i've been on this
> list, people have been responded to appropriately to insult with defense of
> the practice. it's not surprising, if a bit boring.
>
> erik
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 6:25 PM, robert zeidler 
> wrote:
>>
>> Well said.  Regardless of one's motivation and intentions, these are
>> pricey bikes to get to the final build-up.  Not trying to appear as some
>> elitist, but it is what what is.  Grant uses these things because he's
>> experimenting with stuff.  I've never received any bike from them built-up
>> with plastic.  Geez why does everything have to become some class-warfare
>> thing?  It's a comment on workmanship not status.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:56 PM, JimD  wrote:
>>>
>>> Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to do
>>> so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
>>> They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.
>>> Of course some have made the same claims for duct tape and even bailing
>>> wire.
>>> -JimD
>>> On Dec 23, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Beth H wrote:
>>>
>>> On Dec 23, 2:16 pm, robert zeidler  wrote:
>>>
>>> With no disrespect to anyone, especially during this joyous time, plastic
>>>
>>> ties on a +/- $4000.00 bike is just atrocious.  Learn the use of a few
>>> basic
>>>
>>> tools and use the correct fasteners.  For a "get-you-home" or temp
>>> repair,
>>>
>>> OK, but in the words of my first shop-teacher, it's "hack".
>>>
>>> I suggest that while Rivendell definitely markets to the rider with "a
>>> job and bicycle prorities", the underlying aesthetic of Rivendell
>>> bikes is absolutely a loving and benign sense of "hack". For evidence,
>>> I submit the old tan Atlantis flyer of several years ago, which showed
>>> a number of Atlantii (??) in various types of build-up, with all
>>> manner of baskets, zip-ties and other funkinesses on them. I'd also
>>> look up Grant's multiple articles/photo essays on "Beausage" (a word I
>>> still stumble over when I actually try to use it in a sentence because
>>> it feels made-up), all of which practically glorify the bike that is
>>> well-ridden, a bit dirty, maybe even a little dented and has paint
>>> worn off the edges of the fork crown and all the stays.
>>>
>>> While some folks may ride a $4,000.00 bike because it's spendy or
>>> fancy, some folks may choose to ride a $4,000.00 Rivendell simply
>>> because it's well-made, and durable enough to see them out. And for
>>> those of us who fall into that category, there are lovely zip-ties.
>>>
>>> I hope the inventor of the zip-tie didn't die broke.
>>>
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Ray Shine]

Wow!  I've always used zipties for fendres and baskets. I'm curious how one 
efficiently mounts a basket to a front rack with anything other than zip ties?  
Pix to back it up?





From: Philip Williamson 
To: RBW Owners Bunch 
Sent: Thu, December 23, 2010 5:26:24 PM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again


On Dec 23, 2:18 pm, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 13:56 -0800, JimD wrote:
>
> > Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to
> > do so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
> > They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.
>
> Yes, but the Saluki doesn't present those problems.
>
> And yes, in this case zip ties are a hack and all the koolaid in the
> world isn't going to change that.

I'm pretty sure we're talking about mudflaps, not fenders. Nuts and
bolts for mudflaps are more of a hack than zipties.
The couture solution would be to have two brass snaps on the trailing
edge of every Honjo fender, and 'artisan' mudflaps that matched...

Philip

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 18:03 -0800, JimD wrote:
> One man's koolaid is another man's pinot noir.

Bottoms up!



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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[JimD]

One man's koolaid is another man's pinot noir.
-JimD

On Dec 23, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:


On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 13:56 -0800, JimD wrote:



Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me  
to

do so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.


Yes, but the Saluki doesn't present those problems.

And yes, in this case zip ties are a hack and all the koolaid in the
world isn't going to change that.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[JimD]

Well the 'correct' use of zip ties involves purposeful, even tasteful,  
selection of color.


Otherwise, you are correct sir, it's just another hack.

-JimD
On Dec 23, 2010, at 2:59 PM, Thomas Lynn Skean wrote:


But to me they really do look a lot
better. Black zip-ties are such a hack. :)


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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[robert zeidler]

...and on that note, Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:02 PM, Mike  wrote:

> On Dec 23, 4:18 pm, robert zeidler  wrote:
>
> >  These bikes may get ridden more (doubtful), but they most certainly will
> be
> > repaired more.  I'm thinking mostly of Grant's zip-tie-ing mud-flaps and
> > fenders.  It's hack work.
>
> I don't see how a zip tied fender flap will lead to a bike getting
> repaired more. The only Rivendell I had that broke (and was
> subsequently repaired) had plastic fenders with appropriately attached
> VO leather mud flaps. Perhaps it was the plastic fenders that caused
> the frame to break?
>
> All kidding aside, I know some people are fine with "hack" fixes and
> others just want to do things "right". I've used metal fenders,
> correctly installed, with zip tied flaps and plastic fenders with
> bolted on leather mud flaps and both seem to do a good job of keeping
> crud off my feet and the frame. The only fender malfunction I had was
> on a 300k brevet when a bracket on my fender came loose. This issue
> has since been reolved by usign some Loctite.
>
> When I first got a Wald basket for my Nitto mini front rack on my QB I
> wasn't really that enthusiastic about attaching the basket with zip-
> ties but it works fine.
>
> I'm a randonneur and always have a few zip ties with me on brevets.
>
> Grant once made a comment about his bikes being like him, slightly
> disheveled. I like that. I'm certainly disheveled. My QB is definitely
> disheveled. Right now the Homer is looking good but that'll change...
>
> --mike
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[robert zeidler]

The ones with zip-ties through the bosses. (Just kidding!)

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 16:31 -0800, Erik C wrote:
> >
> > > Well, metal fenders look better, work better and weigh less.  Plastic
> > > fenders are cheaper and easier to remove.  Anything else?
> >
> > I'd add durability to the chromoplastic side.
>
> That appears to be a function of how well the metal fenders are mounted.
> Plastic fenders eventually will crack.  Some well-mounted metal fenders
> have lasted half a century; other, poorly mounted ones have failed
> quickly.
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[robert zeidler]

Not sure where the insult part comes in, I'm certainly not intentionally
insulting anyone, it's a free country.  Let me explain further.

I've been reading this list forever also.  People buy these bikes ($3K for a
custom), hang the finest components they can afford on them, and obsessively
discuss the most minute details.  These are not Box-store specials (Yugo's),
they are a higher quality, hand-made object that will give hours/days/weeks,
etc of use/pleasure...whatever.  Let's liken them a nicer auto (you pick).
 Would you put, say, some garbage wheel cover on your better auto, the same
as you would on your Yugo?  Probably not.  It's not a status thing, for the
f-ing 5,000th time.  It's a quality of workmanship thing.  Wire-tie the
cables for your bike computer?  Absolutely.  Wire-tie a rack, or other
bolt-able, screw-able components as a permanent set-up because of some
aversion to drills or hand-tools, or work.  I'm just not seeing it.  Not a
big thing.  Every mistake one can make wrenching a bicycle (or motorcycle
for that matter)-I've made 'em.  Can't say as I liked doing that.  That's
all bro.

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:36 PM, erik jensen  wrote:

> robert,
>
> for as long as i've been on this list, any number of folks have felt the
> need, as you did, to tell us how stupid/silly/hack we are for putting
> zip-ties on thousand dollar bicycles. and, for as long as i've been on this
> list, people have been responded to appropriately to insult with defense of
> the practice. it's not surprising, if a bit boring.
>
> erik
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 6:25 PM, robert zeidler 
> wrote:
>
>> Well said.  Regardless of one's motivation and intentions, these are
>> pricey bikes to get to the final build-up.  Not trying to appear as some
>> elitist, but it is what what is.  Grant uses these things because he's
>> experimenting with stuff.  I've never received any bike from them built-up
>> with plastic.  Geez why does everything have to become some class-warfare
>> thing?  It's a comment on workmanship not status.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:56 PM, JimD  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to do
>>> so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
>>> They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.
>>>
>>> Of course some have made the same claims for duct tape and even bailing
>>> wire.
>>> -JimD
>>>
>>> On Dec 23, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Beth H wrote:
>>>
>>> On Dec 23, 2:16 pm, robert zeidler  wrote:
>>>
>>> With no disrespect to anyone, especially during this joyous time, plastic
>>>
>>> ties on a +/- $4000.00 bike is just atrocious.  Learn the use of a few
>>> basic
>>>
>>> tools and use the correct fasteners.  For a "get-you-home" or temp
>>> repair,
>>>
>>> OK, but in the words of my first shop-teacher, it's "hack".
>>>
>>>
>>> I suggest that while Rivendell definitely markets to the rider with "a
>>> job and bicycle prorities", the underlying aesthetic of Rivendell
>>> bikes is absolutely a loving and benign sense of "hack". For evidence,
>>> I submit the old tan Atlantis flyer of several years ago, which showed
>>> a number of Atlantii (??) in various types of build-up, with all
>>> manner of baskets, zip-ties and other funkinesses on them. I'd also
>>> look up Grant's multiple articles/photo essays on "Beausage" (a word I
>>> still stumble over when I actually try to use it in a sentence because
>>> it feels made-up), all of which practically glorify the bike that is
>>> well-ridden, a bit dirty, maybe even a little dented and has paint
>>> worn off the edges of the fork crown and all the stays.
>>>
>>> While some folks may ride a $4,000.00 bike because it's spendy or
>>> fancy, some folks may choose to ride a $4,000.00 Rivendell simply
>>> because it's well-made, and durable enough to see them out. And for
>>> those of us who fall into that category, there are lovely zip-ties.
>>>
>>> I hope the inventor of the zip-tie didn't die broke.
>>>
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 13:13 -0800, rperks wrote:
> I have been looking at all the pictures of the Saluki frames I could
> find, and nowhere did I see the fittings for the "mud flap".

Mud flaps are mounted by bolting them to the bottom edge of the fender.
http://www.freewebs.com/palincss/angle_sideview_bag_street.jpg



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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 16:31 -0800, Erik C wrote:
> 
> > Well, metal fenders look better, work better and weigh less.  Plastic
> > fenders are cheaper and easier to remove.  Anything else?
> 
> I'd add durability to the chromoplastic side.

That appears to be a function of how well the metal fenders are mounted.
Plastic fenders eventually will crack.  Some well-mounted metal fenders
have lasted half a century; other, poorly mounted ones have failed
quickly.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[erik jensen]

robert,

for as long as i've been on this list, any number of folks have felt the
need, as you did, to tell us how stupid/silly/hack we are for putting
zip-ties on thousand dollar bicycles. and, for as long as i've been on this
list, people have been responded to appropriately to insult with defense of
the practice. it's not surprising, if a bit boring.

erik

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 6:25 PM, robert zeidler wrote:

> Well said.  Regardless of one's motivation and intentions, these are pricey
> bikes to get to the final build-up.  Not trying to appear as some elitist,
> but it is what what is.  Grant uses these things because he's experimenting
> with stuff.  I've never received any bike from them built-up with plastic.
>  Geez why does everything have to become some class-warfare thing?  It's a
> comment on workmanship not status.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:56 PM, JimD  wrote:
>
>>
>> Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to do
>> so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
>> They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.
>>
>> Of course some have made the same claims for duct tape and even bailing
>> wire.
>> -JimD
>>
>> On Dec 23, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Beth H wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 23, 2:16 pm, robert zeidler  wrote:
>>
>> With no disrespect to anyone, especially during this joyous time, plastic
>>
>> ties on a +/- $4000.00 bike is just atrocious.  Learn the use of a few
>> basic
>>
>> tools and use the correct fasteners.  For a "get-you-home" or temp repair,
>>
>> OK, but in the words of my first shop-teacher, it's "hack".
>>
>>
>> I suggest that while Rivendell definitely markets to the rider with "a
>> job and bicycle prorities", the underlying aesthetic of Rivendell
>> bikes is absolutely a loving and benign sense of "hack". For evidence,
>> I submit the old tan Atlantis flyer of several years ago, which showed
>> a number of Atlantii (??) in various types of build-up, with all
>> manner of baskets, zip-ties and other funkinesses on them. I'd also
>> look up Grant's multiple articles/photo essays on "Beausage" (a word I
>> still stumble over when I actually try to use it in a sentence because
>> it feels made-up), all of which practically glorify the bike that is
>> well-ridden, a bit dirty, maybe even a little dented and has paint
>> worn off the edges of the fork crown and all the stays.
>>
>> While some folks may ride a $4,000.00 bike because it's spendy or
>> fancy, some folks may choose to ride a $4,000.00 Rivendell simply
>> because it's well-made, and durable enough to see them out. And for
>> those of us who fall into that category, there are lovely zip-ties.
>>
>> I hope the inventor of the zip-tie didn't die broke.
>>
>> Beth
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[robert zeidler]

They have their place.

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Kelly Sleeper  wrote:

> Zip ties have a place and many viable uses.  A hack in one place, a good
> fastener in another.
>
> Wouldn't using zips on the mud flap give more clearance for tires?  I know
> those lock nuts are limiting on my ahh.
>
> Could be zips are even practical ... At times.
>
> H
>
> Kelly
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 23, 2010, at 6:25 PM, robert zeidler 
> wrote:
>
> Well said.  Regardless of one's motivation and intentions, these are pricey
> bikes to get to the final build-up.  Not trying to appear as some elitist,
> but it is what what is.  Grant uses these things because he's experimenting
> with stuff.  I've never received any bike from them built-up with plastic.
>  Geez why does everything have to become some class-warfare thing?  It's a
> comment on workmanship not status.
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:56 PM, JimD < 
> rasterd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to do
>> so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
>> They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.
>>
>> Of course some have made the same claims for duct tape and even bailing
>> wire.
>> -JimD
>>
>> On Dec 23, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Beth H wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 23, 2:16 pm, robert zeidler  wrote:
>>
>> With no disrespect to anyone, especially during this joyous time, plastic
>>
>> ties on a +/- $4000.00 bike is just atrocious.  Learn the use of a few
>> basic
>>
>> tools and use the correct fasteners.  For a "get-you-home" or temp repair,
>>
>> OK, but in the words of my first shop-teacher, it's "hack".
>>
>>
>> I suggest that while Rivendell definitely markets to the rider with "a
>> job and bicycle prorities", the underlying aesthetic of Rivendell
>> bikes is absolutely a loving and benign sense of "hack". For evidence,
>> I submit the old tan Atlantis flyer of several years ago, which showed
>> a number of Atlantii (??) in various types of build-up, with all
>> manner of baskets, zip-ties and other funkinesses on them. I'd also
>> look up Grant's multiple articles/photo essays on "Beausage" (a word I
>> still stumble over when I actually try to use it in a sentence because
>> it feels made-up), all of which practically glorify the bike that is
>> well-ridden, a bit dirty, maybe even a little dented and has paint
>> worn off the edges of the fork crown and all the stays.
>>
>> While some folks may ride a $4,000.00 bike because it's spendy or
>> fancy, some folks may choose to ride a $4,000.00 Rivendell simply
>> because it's well-made, and durable enough to see them out. And for
>> those of us who fall into that category, there are lovely zip-ties.
>>
>> I hope the inventor of the zip-tie didn't die broke.
>>
>> Beth
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Kelly Sleeper]

Metal fenders front anyway are longer and will protect that light mounted in a 
mini rack.

Kelly

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 23, 2010, at 6:31 PM, Erik C  wrote:

> 
> 
>> Well, metal fenders look better, work better and weigh less.  Plastic
>> fenders are cheaper and easier to remove.  Anything else?
> 
> I'd add durability to the chromoplastic side.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Kelly Sleeper]

Zip ties have a place and many viable uses.  A hack in one place, a good 
fastener in another.

Wouldn't using zips on the mud flap give more clearance for tires?  I know 
those lock nuts are limiting on my ahh.

Could be zips are even practical ... At times. 

H

Kelly

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 23, 2010, at 6:25 PM, robert zeidler  wrote:

> Well said.  Regardless of one's motivation and intentions, these are pricey 
> bikes to get to the final build-up.  Not trying to appear as some elitist, 
> but it is what what is.  Grant uses these things because he's experimenting 
> with stuff.  I've never received any bike from them built-up with plastic.  
> Geez why does everything have to become some class-warfare thing?  It's a 
> comment on workmanship not status.
> 
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:56 PM, JimD  wrote:
> 
> Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to do 
> so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
> They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.
> 
> Of course some have made the same claims for duct tape and even bailing wire.
> -JimD
> 
> On Dec 23, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Beth H wrote:
> 
>> On Dec 23, 2:16 pm, robert zeidler  wrote:
>>> With no disrespect to anyone, especially during this joyous time, plastic
>>> ties on a +/- $4000.00 bike is just atrocious.  Learn the use of a few basic
>>> tools and use the correct fasteners.  For a "get-you-home" or temp repair,
>>> OK, but in the words of my first shop-teacher, it's "hack".
>> 
>> I suggest that while Rivendell definitely markets to the rider with "a
>> job and bicycle prorities", the underlying aesthetic of Rivendell
>> bikes is absolutely a loving and benign sense of "hack". For evidence,
>> I submit the old tan Atlantis flyer of several years ago, which showed
>> a number of Atlantii (??) in various types of build-up, with all
>> manner of baskets, zip-ties and other funkinesses on them. I'd also
>> look up Grant's multiple articles/photo essays on "Beausage" (a word I
>> still stumble over when I actually try to use it in a sentence because
>> it feels made-up), all of which practically glorify the bike that is
>> well-ridden, a bit dirty, maybe even a little dented and has paint
>> worn off the edges of the fork crown and all the stays.
>> 
>> While some folks may ride a $4,000.00 bike because it's spendy or
>> fancy, some folks may choose to ride a $4,000.00 Rivendell simply
>> because it's well-made, and durable enough to see them out. And for
>> those of us who fall into that category, there are lovely zip-ties.
>> 
>> I hope the inventor of the zip-tie didn't die broke.
>> 
>> Beth
>> 
>> -- 
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>> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[robert zeidler]

Well said.  Regardless of one's motivation and intentions, these are pricey
bikes to get to the final build-up.  Not trying to appear as some elitist,
but it is what what is.  Grant uses these things because he's experimenting
with stuff.  I've never received any bike from them built-up with plastic.
 Geez why does everything have to become some class-warfare thing?  It's a
comment on workmanship not status.

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 4:56 PM, JimD  wrote:

>
> Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to do
> so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
> They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.
>
> Of course some have made the same claims for duct tape and even bailing
> wire.
> -JimD
>
> On Dec 23, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Beth H wrote:
>
> On Dec 23, 2:16 pm, robert zeidler  wrote:
>
> With no disrespect to anyone, especially during this joyous time, plastic
>
> ties on a +/- $4000.00 bike is just atrocious.  Learn the use of a few
> basic
>
> tools and use the correct fasteners.  For a "get-you-home" or temp repair,
>
> OK, but in the words of my first shop-teacher, it's "hack".
>
>
> I suggest that while Rivendell definitely markets to the rider with "a
> job and bicycle prorities", the underlying aesthetic of Rivendell
> bikes is absolutely a loving and benign sense of "hack". For evidence,
> I submit the old tan Atlantis flyer of several years ago, which showed
> a number of Atlantii (??) in various types of build-up, with all
> manner of baskets, zip-ties and other funkinesses on them. I'd also
> look up Grant's multiple articles/photo essays on "Beausage" (a word I
> still stumble over when I actually try to use it in a sentence because
> it feels made-up), all of which practically glorify the bike that is
> well-ridden, a bit dirty, maybe even a little dented and has paint
> worn off the edges of the fork crown and all the stays.
>
> While some folks may ride a $4,000.00 bike because it's spendy or
> fancy, some folks may choose to ride a $4,000.00 Rivendell simply
> because it's well-made, and durable enough to see them out. And for
> those of us who fall into that category, there are lovely zip-ties.
>
> I hope the inventor of the zip-tie didn't die broke.
>
> Beth
>
> --
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>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 14:59 -0800, Thomas Lynn Skean wrote:
> 
> And, though I love the look of metal fenders and am soon to try them
> out, let us not pretend that metal fenders are uniformly better in
> every way than chromoplastic or even normal plastic fenders.
> (Chromo)plastic fenders have practical advantages. Metal has practical
> advantages. Either is both a choice and a compromise.

Well, metal fenders look better, work better and weigh less.  Plastic
fenders are cheaper and easier to remove.  Anything else?





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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2010-12-23 at 13:56 -0800, JimD wrote:
> 
> 
> Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to
> do so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.
> They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.

Yes, but the Saluki doesn't present those problems.

And yes, in this case zip ties are a hack and all the koolaid in the
world isn't going to change that.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Vindicated Once Again

[JimD]

Seriously, if you get your mind right (and it took some time for me to  
do so), zip ties aren't a 'hack'.

They're an ingenious solution to many faster/fastening problems.

Of course some have made the same claims for duct tape and even  
bailing wire.

-JimD

On Dec 23, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Beth H wrote:


On Dec 23, 2:16 pm, robert zeidler  wrote:
With no disrespect to anyone, especially during this joyous time,  
plastic
ties on a +/- $4000.00 bike is just atrocious.  Learn the use of a  
few basic
tools and use the correct fasteners.  For a "get-you-home" or temp  
repair,

OK, but in the words of my first shop-teacher, it's "hack".


I suggest that while Rivendell definitely markets to the rider with "a
job and bicycle prorities", the underlying aesthetic of Rivendell
bikes is absolutely a loving and benign sense of "hack". For evidence,
I submit the old tan Atlantis flyer of several years ago, which showed
a number of Atlantii (??) in various types of build-up, with all
manner of baskets, zip-ties and other funkinesses on them. I'd also
look up Grant's multiple articles/photo essays on "Beausage" (a word I
still stumble over when I actually try to use it in a sentence because
it feels made-up), all of which practically glorify the bike that is
well-ridden, a bit dirty, maybe even a little dented and has paint
worn off the edges of the fork crown and all the stays.

While some folks may ride a $4,000.00 bike because it's spendy or
fancy, some folks may choose to ride a $4,000.00 Rivendell simply
because it's well-made, and durable enough to see them out. And for
those of us who fall into that category, there are lovely zip-ties.

I hope the inventor of the zip-tie didn't die broke.

Beth

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