Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi all
When trying to run the pump with the inverter, make the following measurements. 
 
DC amps, and DC volts to the inverter, multiply by about 0.9, this is the true 
power.  Then measure at the same time the AC volts and the AC amps. this it the 
apparent power.  Power factor is the ratio of apparent power to true power.  

Also if the AC current exceeds the inverter rating, you will know.  Use a meter 
with surge capability, If the surge is to high the inverter may not restore 
voltage, kind of lock up until it reaches overload.  

Darryl
--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Matt  wrote:

> From: Matt 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 7:38 PM
> Geeze,
> Are the PF meters available separately without having to
> replace a perfectly fine 337?
> 
> Matt
>  boB Gudgel 
> wrote: 
> > Allan Sindelar wrote:
> > > Matt and boB,
> > > This is only somewhat relevant, but may help:
> > > A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system
> with a Magnum MS4024AE, we
> > > easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head
> plus pressurizing (single
> > > pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so
> the soft-start made it
> > > much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25
> VDC, or around 2200 watts. I
> > > had cautioned the client that this combination
> wasn't certain to work,
> > > although I expected that it would. 
> > >
> > > Allan Sindelar
> > >   
> > H  If this is a submersible pump, how
> would you really know it 
> > was trying to start or not ?
> > Maybe he just can't hear it trying to start, as short
> as that try might be ?
> > 
> > Yeah, I'd check the current and voltage when trying to
> start off the 
> > inverter and also the generator
> > just for a reference point.   Sounds
> like a great use of a PF meter 
> > actually.
> > 
> > boB
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> > > NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> > > EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> > > Positive Energy, Inc.
> > > 3201 Calle Marie
> > > Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> > > 505 424-1112
> > > www.positiveenergysolar.com
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> > > [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
> On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM
> > > To: Matt
> > > Cc: RE-wrenches
> > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
> > >
> > > Matt wrote:
> > >   
> > >> Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for
> Magnum - boB,
> > >>
> > >> One of the guys at work is (almost) running a
> 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
> > >>     
> > > AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when
> he first fired it up, it
> > > operated the pump just fine. The next time he
> tried, though. he couldn't
> > > even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
> > >   
> > >>   
> > >>     
> > > Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn
> out" problem, doesn't it ?
> > >
> > > If there is enough ac voltage applied to the
> pump, the it should do 
> > > ~something~, or lights should dim or some
> > > kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you
> think ?   Otherwise, I 
> > > would suspect it might be a surge problem.
> > >
> > > Is there a pilot light or something
> ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker 
> > > tripped somewhere ?   (when the
> pump went off?)
> > >
> > > Doesn't sound like a PF problem though...
> However,  since you mention 
> > > it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
> > > at least for displacement power factor, when
> reactive phase shift is 
> > > involved, the inverter must be able to "sink"
> current
> > > from the stored reactive energy as well as be a
> source to the motor.   
> > > The Magnum does that just fine, as does any
> other
> > > decent inverter.
> > >
> > > Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this
> before ?    425-353-8833
> > >
> > > boB
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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> 
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[Ron Young]

Well, as it's the first grid-tie system in this region they are  
paying close attention. The guy I am dealing with is very stern and  
precise. I put down 100%, as they wanted a percentage. So we'll see.  
Thx all for the feedback, helpful as always!


Ron

On 30-Jul-09, at 5:58 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:


Ron,
Why try to break it to them at all? Just answer the question. Put  
down 1.0
or unity. That's what they're looking for. Then go on to the next  
question.

They'll never catch it.

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB  
Gudgel

Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 1:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Ron Young wrote:

Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to
British Columbia Hydro? :-|

I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but  
the

question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total
output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %


It was most likely just  a trick question.

You're gonna fool them, though !   :)


boB





I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully  
understand

what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My
understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility
supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that
residence expressed as a percentage.

I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses
Power Factor with reference to PV:

POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS
Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems



This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?  What
causes low power factor?  Why improve
your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor
correction as it applies to solar installations.
There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries
resulting in phenomenal energy savings with
a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session
includes several KVAR installations and the
resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/ 
industry08_trainingdetails.pdf


Ron

On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote:


There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.


.. 
..

..

Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

.. 
..

..


- Original Message -
*From:* Ron Young 
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor  
for

Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application.

Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com



-- 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[Allan Sindelar]

Ron,
Why try to break it to them at all? Just answer the question. Put down 1.0
or unity. That's what they're looking for. Then go on to the next question.
They'll never catch it.

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 1:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Ron Young wrote:
> Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to 
> British Columbia Hydro? :-|
>
> I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the 
> question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total 
> output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %

It was most likely just  a trick question.

You're gonna fool them, though !   :)


boB



>
> I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand 
> what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My 
> understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility 
> supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that 
> residence expressed as a percentage. 
>
> I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses 
> Power Factor with reference to PV:
>
> POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS 
> Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems 
>
>  
>
> This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?  What 
> causes low power factor?  Why improve 
> your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor 
> correction as it applies to solar installations. 
> There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries 
> resulting in phenomenal energy savings with 
> a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session 
> includes several KVAR installations and the 
> resultant savings. 
> http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
>
> Ron
>
> On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote:
>
>> There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
>>  
>>

..
>> Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
>> Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
>>

..
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> *From:* Ron Young 
>> *To:* RE-wrenches 
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
>>
>> Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
>> Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
>> metering interconnection application.  
>>
>> Ron Young
>> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
>>
>>
>>

>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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>>
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>> www.members.re-wrenches.org 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)

[Matt]

Geeze,
Are the PF meters available separately without having to replace a perfectly 
fine 337?

Matt
 boB Gudgel  wrote: 
> Allan Sindelar wrote:
> > Matt and boB,
> > This is only somewhat relevant, but may help:
> > A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we
> > easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single
> > pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it
> > much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I
> > had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work,
> > although I expected that it would. 
> >
> > Allan Sindelar
> >   
> H  If this is a submersible pump, how would you really know it 
> was trying to start or not ?
> Maybe he just can't hear it trying to start, as short as that try might be ?
> 
> Yeah, I'd check the current and voltage when trying to start off the 
> inverter and also the generator
> just for a reference point.   Sounds like a great use of a PF meter 
> actually.
> 
> boB
> 
> 
> 
> > al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> > NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> > EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> > Positive Energy, Inc.
> > 3201 Calle Marie
> > Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> > 505 424-1112
> > www.positiveenergysolar.com
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> > [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
> > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM
> > To: Matt
> > Cc: RE-wrenches
> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
> >
> > Matt wrote:
> >   
> >> Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
> >>
> >> One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
> >> 
> > AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
> > operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
> > even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
> >   
> >>   
> >> 
> > Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
> >
> > If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do 
> > ~something~, or lights should dim or some
> > kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ?   Otherwise, I 
> > would suspect it might be a surge problem.
> >
> > Is there a pilot light or something ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker 
> > tripped somewhere ?   (when the pump went off?)
> >
> > Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However,  since you mention 
> > it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
> > at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is 
> > involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
> > from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.   
> > The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
> > decent inverter.
> >
> > Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833
> >
> > boB
> >
> >
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)

[Matt]

Allan,

Yeah. If I could talk him into a better pump (it's the money!) the whole issue 
would go away. Sort of. Like a lot of folks, they save their dough and pay for 
improvements piecemeal, and the pump is the last big hit (if they only knew!) 
being saved for.

Matt
 Allan Sindelar  wrote: 
> Matt and boB,
> This is only somewhat relevant, but may help:
> A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we
> easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single
> pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it
> much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I
> had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work,
> although I expected that it would. 
> 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Positive Energy, Inc.
> 3201 Calle Marie
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> 505 424-1112
> www.positiveenergysolar.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM
> To: Matt
> Cc: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
> 
> Matt wrote:
> > Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
> >
> > One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
> AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
> operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
> even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
> >   
> Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
> 
> If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do 
> ~something~, or lights should dim or some
> kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ?   Otherwise, I 
> would suspect it might be a surge problem.
> 
> Is there a pilot light or something ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker 
> tripped somewhere ?   (when the pump went off?)
> 
> Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However,  since you mention 
> it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
> at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is 
> involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
> from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.   
> The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
> decent inverter.
> 
> Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833
> 
> boB
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)

[boB Gudgel]

Allan Sindelar wrote:

Matt and boB,
This is only somewhat relevant, but may help:
A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we
easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single
pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it
much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I
had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work,
although I expected that it would. 


Allan Sindelar
  
H  If this is a submersible pump, how would you really know it 
was trying to start or not ?

Maybe he just can't hear it trying to start, as short as that try might be ?

Yeah, I'd check the current and voltage when trying to start off the 
inverter and also the generator
just for a reference point.   Sounds like a great use of a PF meter 
actually.


boB




al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM
To: Matt
Cc: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Matt wrote:
  

Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,

One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna


AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
  
  


Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?

If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do 
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ?   Otherwise, I 
would suspect it might be a surge problem.


Is there a pilot light or something ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker 
tripped somewhere ?   (when the pump went off?)


Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However,  since you mention 
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is 
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.   
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other

decent inverter.

Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833

boB


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[Matt]

Hi Jay,

I think I'll check his wire connections at all the connection points first, and 
then the next time I'm in the area, bring my Fluke (which DOESN'T measure PF) 
for a closer look. Believe it or not, his meter is one of those mini GB 
thingies, analog of course, that would be better as a paper weight. The whole 
problem is really a hard thing to ferret out with face flies buzzing around 
your ears and eyes. :-(

Matt
 jay peltz  wrote: 
> Hi Matt,
> 
> I would try a few things, but its very curious to me that the inverter  
> won't even get a try out of the motor.
> I've seen plenty of motors not work, but they tried to start.
> 
> And given the 7k genny starts it, the 4k inverter should start it too.
> I would check the current under load and surge if possible.
> Check the battery voltage.
> Could be a bad cap on the motor too.
> 
> I've got a new meter that measures PF on the way, just for problems  
> like this.
> 
> jay
> 
> peltz power
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 30, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Matt wrote:
> 
> > Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would  
> > go for the bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be  
> > an issue??
> >
> > Matt T
> >  boB Gudgel  wrote:
> >> Matt wrote:
> >>> Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
> >>>
> >>> One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with  
> >>> a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first  
> >>> fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he  
> >>> tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No  
> >>> workee.
> >>>
> >> Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't  
> >> it ?
> >>
> >> If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
> >> ~something~, or lights should dim or some
> >> kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ?   Otherwise, I
> >> would suspect it might be a surge problem.
> >>
> >> Is there a pilot light or something ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
> >> tripped somewhere ?   (when the pump went off?)
> >>
> >> Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However,  since you mention
> >> it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
> >> at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
> >> involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
> >> from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
> >> The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
> >> decent inverter.
> >>
> >> Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 
> >> 425-353-8833
> >>
> >> boB
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not  
> >>> the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with  
> >>> no issues.
> >>> So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think  
> >>> not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to  
> >>> admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the  
> >>> pump once, but not after.
> >>>
> >>> Matt T
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  boB Gudgel  wrote:
> >>>
>  boB Gudgel wrote:
> 
> >> So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is  
> >> always best
>  to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase)  
>  power, or
>  VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That  
>  will
>  work in all cases.
> 
> 
>  OOOps !   See, this can get confusing.   Reverse what I just  
>  said  Power
>  Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent  
>  power"  as
>  David Brearley had just posted.  Otherwise, that calculation can  
>  give
>  you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
> 
>  Had to eat some of my words.  I just wanted to point out that the  
>  phase
>  shift method was called DPF.   Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article  
>  on PF
>  recently too ?  If not, he or someone probably should in one of  
>  the two
>  HP magazines.
> 
>  boB
> 
> 
> > R. Walters wrote:
> >
> >> Power factor expresses the time difference  between voltage  
> >> peak and
> >> current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and  
> >> voltage
> >> waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor  
> >> is 1.
> >> If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
> >> electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction  
> >> of a
> >> second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens.  
> >> There
> >> is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very  
> >> little
> >> lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have  
> >> horrible PF.
> >>
> > This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
> > only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)

[Allan Sindelar]

Matt and boB,
This is only somewhat relevant, but may help:
A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we
easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single
pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it
much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I
had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work,
although I expected that it would. 

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM
To: Matt
Cc: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Matt wrote:
> Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
>
> One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna
AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't
even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
>   
Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?

If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do 
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ?   Otherwise, I 
would suspect it might be a surge problem.

Is there a pilot light or something ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker 
tripped somewhere ?   (when the pump went off?)

Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However,  since you mention 
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is 
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.   
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.

Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833

boB


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[boB Gudgel]

jay peltz wrote:

Hi Matt,

I would try a few things, but its very curious to me that the inverter 
won't even get a try out of the motor.

I've seen plenty of motors not work, but they tried to start.

And given the 7k genny starts it, the 4k inverter should start it too.
I would check the current under load and surge if possible.
Check the battery voltage.
Could be a bad cap on the motor too.

I've got a new meter that measures PF on the way, just for problems 
like this.


jay

peltz power


Shall we try for 4 out of a million plus ??Maybe it's another  
dreaded CBI breaker ?


boB









On Jul 30, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Matt wrote:

Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would 
go for the bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be 
an issue??


Matt T
 boB Gudgel  wrote:

Matt wrote:

Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,

One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with 
a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first 
fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he 
tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No 
workee.


Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't 
it ?


If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ?   Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.

Is there a pilot light or something ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ?   (when the pump went off?)

Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However,  since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.

Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?
425-353-8833


boB






The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not 
the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with 
no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think 
not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit 
to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, 
but not after.


Matt T


 boB Gudgel  wrote:


boB Gudgel wrote:

So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always 
best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) 
power, or

VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will
work in all cases.


OOOps !   See, this can get confusing.   Reverse what I just said  
Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent 
power"  as

David Brearley had just posted.  Otherwise, that calculation can give
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !

Had to eat some of my words.  I just wanted to point out that the 
phase
shift method was called DPF.   Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article 
on PF
recently too ?  If not, he or someone probably should in one of 
the two

HP magazines.

boB



R. Walters wrote:

Power factor expresses the time difference  between voltage peak 
and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and 
voltage

waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. 
There

is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have 
horrible PF.



This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will  see that on some 
power

meters.

For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power 
supplies

without PF Correction,  the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave.   The current "spikes up" at the
AC voltage peaks.  It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, 
BUT

the current and the voltage do NOT look the same.  It's non-linear.
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.

For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a 
PF of
1.0,  the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the 
same

AND there will be no phase shift.   They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.

So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always 
best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) 
power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That 
will

work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get whe

Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[jay peltz]

Hi Matt,

I would try a few things, but its very curious to me that the inverter  
won't even get a try out of the motor.

I've seen plenty of motors not work, but they tried to start.

And given the 7k genny starts it, the 4k inverter should start it too.
I would check the current under load and surge if possible.
Check the battery voltage.
Could be a bad cap on the motor too.

I've got a new meter that measures PF on the way, just for problems  
like this.


jay

peltz power



On Jul 30, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Matt wrote:

Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would  
go for the bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be  
an issue??


Matt T
 boB Gudgel  wrote:

Matt wrote:

Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,

One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with  
a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first  
fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he  
tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No  
workee.


Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't  
it ?


If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ?   Otherwise, I
would suspect it might be a surge problem.

Is there a pilot light or something ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker
tripped somewhere ?   (when the pump went off?)

Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However,  since you mention
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
decent inverter.

Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 
425-353-8833


boB






The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not  
the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with  
no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think  
not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to  
admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the  
pump once, but not after.


Matt T


 boB Gudgel  wrote:


boB Gudgel wrote:

So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is  
always best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase)  
power, or
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That  
will

work in all cases.


OOOps !   See, this can get confusing.   Reverse what I just  
said  Power
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent  
power"  as
David Brearley had just posted.  Otherwise, that calculation can  
give

you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !

Had to eat some of my words.  I just wanted to point out that the  
phase
shift method was called DPF.   Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article  
on PF
recently too ?  If not, he or someone probably should in one of  
the two

HP magazines.

boB



R. Walters wrote:

Power factor expresses the time difference  between voltage  
peak and
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and  
voltage
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor  
is 1.

If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction  
of a
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens.  
There
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very  
little
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have  
horrible PF.



This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will  see that on some  
power

meters.

For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power  
supplies

without PF Correction,  the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks
nothing like a sine or cosine wave.   The current "spikes up" at  
the
AC voltage peaks.  It actually *looks like* it might be in  
phase, BUT
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same.  It's non- 
linear.

Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.

For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a  
PF of
1.0,  the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly  
the same

AND there will be no phase shift.   They are both linear and all
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.

So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always  
best
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase)  
power,
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That  
will

work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA

Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[boB Gudgel]

Matt wrote:

Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would go for the bad 
starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be an issue??

Matt T
  


Well, an inverter is just (supposed to be) a low impedance Voltage 
Source and the current does whatever it is going to do... And what that 
current - voltage

relationship is, is definitely related to power factor.

Is the generator (which works fine) passing ~through~ the Magnum and out 
to the loads and pump ?  If so, then you know it's not a high
resistance circuit or loose terminal block screw I guess.   If the 
generator goes around the Magnum AE internal relays then I would

suspect a high resistance connection somewhere.

I would measure the voltage at the pump and note what it does when the 
pump is switched on from the inverter.
I bet you a drink, (next time I see you), that the voltage drops to zero 
or at least very low.


boB







 boB Gudgel  wrote: 
  

Matt wrote:


Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,

One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 
48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it 
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even 
get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
  
  

Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?

If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do 
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ?   Otherwise, I 
would suspect it might be a surge problem.


Is there a pilot light or something ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker 
tripped somewhere ?   (when the pump went off?)


Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However,  since you mention 
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is 
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.   
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other

decent inverter.

Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833

boB








The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He 
can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor 
starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled 
by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.

Matt T


 boB Gudgel  wrote: 
  
  

boB Gudgel wrote:

 >>So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or 
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will 
work in all cases.



OOOps !   See, this can get confusing.   Reverse what I just said  Power 
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power"  as 
David Brearley had just posted.  Otherwise, that calculation can give 
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !


Had to eat some of my words.  I just wanted to point out that the phase 
shift method was called DPF.   Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ?  If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two 
HP magazines.


boB




R. Walters wrote:
  
  
Power factor expresses the time difference  between voltage peak and 
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage 
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. 
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an 
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a 
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There 
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little 
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.


This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with 
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called 
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will  see that on some power 
meters.


For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies 
without PF Correction,  the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks 
nothing like a sine or cosine wave.   The current "spikes up" at the 
AC voltage peaks.  It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT 
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same.  It's non-linear.  
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.


For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 
1.0,  the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same 
AND there will be no phase shift.   They are both linear and all 
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.


So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
to think of Power F

Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[Matt]

Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would go for the 
bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be an issue??

Matt T
 boB Gudgel  wrote: 
> Matt wrote:
> > Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
> >
> > One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna 
> > AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it 
> > operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't 
> > even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
> >   
> Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
> 
> If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do 
> ~something~, or lights should dim or some
> kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ?   Otherwise, I 
> would suspect it might be a surge problem.
> 
> Is there a pilot light or something ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker 
> tripped somewhere ?   (when the pump went off?)
> 
> Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However,  since you mention 
> it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
> at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is 
> involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
> from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.   
> The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
> decent inverter.
> 
> Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833
> 
> boB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. 
> > He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
> > So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a 
> > motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being 
> > somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.
> >
> > Matt T
> >
> >
> >  boB Gudgel  wrote: 
> >   
> >> boB Gudgel wrote:
> >>
> >>  >>So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
> >> to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or 
> >> VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will 
> >> work in all cases.
> >>
> >>
> >> OOOps !   See, this can get confusing.   Reverse what I just said  Power 
> >> Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power"  as 
> >> David Brearley had just posted.  Otherwise, that calculation can give 
> >> you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
> >>
> >> Had to eat some of my words.  I just wanted to point out that the phase 
> >> shift method was called DPF.   Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
> >> recently too ?  If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two 
> >> HP magazines.
> >>
> >> boB
> >>
> >> 
> >>> R. Walters wrote:
> >>>   
>  Power factor expresses the time difference  between voltage peak and 
>  current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage 
>  waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. 
>  If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an 
>  electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a 
>  second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There 
>  is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little 
>  lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
>  
> >>> This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with 
> >>> only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called 
> >>> "Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will  see that on some power 
> >>> meters.
> >>>
> >>> For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies 
> >>> without PF Correction,  the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks 
> >>> nothing like a sine or cosine wave.   The current "spikes up" at the 
> >>> AC voltage peaks.  It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT 
> >>> the current and the voltage do NOT look the same.  It's non-linear.  
> >>> Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
> >>>
> >>> For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 
> >>> 1.0,  the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same 
> >>> AND there will be no phase shift.   They are both linear and all 
> >>> current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
> >>>
> >>> So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
> >>> to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, 
> >>> or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will 
> >>> work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).   
> >>> Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
> >>> your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt 
> >>> Amperes)   V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless 
> >>> the PF = 1.0 in which
> >>> c

Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[Matt]

Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would go for the 
bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be an issue??

Matt T
 boB Gudgel  wrote: 
> Matt wrote:
> > Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,
> >
> > One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna 
> > AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it 
> > operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't 
> > even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
> >   
> Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?
> 
> If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do 
> ~something~, or lights should dim or some
> kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ?   Otherwise, I 
> would suspect it might be a surge problem.
> 
> Is there a pilot light or something ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker 
> tripped somewhere ?   (when the pump went off?)
> 
> Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However,  since you mention 
> it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
> at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is 
> involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
> from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.   
> The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other
> decent inverter.
> 
> Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833
> 
> boB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. 
> > He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
> > So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a 
> > motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being 
> > somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.
> >
> > Matt T
> >
> >
> >  boB Gudgel  wrote: 
> >   
> >> boB Gudgel wrote:
> >>
> >>  >>So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
> >> to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or 
> >> VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will 
> >> work in all cases.
> >>
> >>
> >> OOOps !   See, this can get confusing.   Reverse what I just said  Power 
> >> Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power"  as 
> >> David Brearley had just posted.  Otherwise, that calculation can give 
> >> you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
> >>
> >> Had to eat some of my words.  I just wanted to point out that the phase 
> >> shift method was called DPF.   Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
> >> recently too ?  If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two 
> >> HP magazines.
> >>
> >> boB
> >>
> >> 
> >>> R. Walters wrote:
> >>>   
>  Power factor expresses the time difference  between voltage peak and 
>  current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage 
>  waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. 
>  If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an 
>  electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a 
>  second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There 
>  is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little 
>  lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
>  
> >>> This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with 
> >>> only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called 
> >>> "Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will  see that on some power 
> >>> meters.
> >>>
> >>> For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies 
> >>> without PF Correction,  the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks 
> >>> nothing like a sine or cosine wave.   The current "spikes up" at the 
> >>> AC voltage peaks.  It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT 
> >>> the current and the voltage do NOT look the same.  It's non-linear.  
> >>> Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
> >>>
> >>> For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 
> >>> 1.0,  the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same 
> >>> AND there will be no phase shift.   They are both linear and all 
> >>> current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
> >>>
> >>> So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
> >>> to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, 
> >>> or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will 
> >>> work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).   
> >>> Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
> >>> your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt 
> >>> Amperes)   V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless 
> >>> the PF = 1.0 in which
> >>> c

Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[boB Gudgel]

Matt wrote:

Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,

One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 
48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it 
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even 
get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.
  

Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't it ?

If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do 
~something~, or lights should dim or some
kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ?   Otherwise, I 
would suspect it might be a surge problem.


Is there a pilot light or something ?   Maybe a fuse blew or breaker 
tripped somewhere ?   (when the pump went off?)


Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However,  since you mention 
it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor,
at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is 
involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current
from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor.   
The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other

decent inverter.

Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833

boB







The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He 
can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor 
starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled 
by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.

Matt T


 boB Gudgel  wrote: 
  

boB Gudgel wrote:

 >>So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or 
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will 
work in all cases.



OOOps !   See, this can get confusing.   Reverse what I just said  Power 
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power"  as 
David Brearley had just posted.  Otherwise, that calculation can give 
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !


Had to eat some of my words.  I just wanted to point out that the phase 
shift method was called DPF.   Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ?  If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two 
HP magazines.


boB



R. Walters wrote:
  
Power factor expresses the time difference  between voltage peak and 
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage 
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. 
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an 
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a 
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There 
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little 
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.

This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with 
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called 
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will  see that on some power 
meters.


For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies 
without PF Correction,  the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks 
nothing like a sine or cosine wave.   The current "spikes up" at the 
AC voltage peaks.  It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT 
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same.  It's non-linear.  
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.


For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 
1.0,  the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same 
AND there will be no phase shift.   They are both linear and all 
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.


So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, 
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will 
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).   
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt 
Amperes)   V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless 
the PF = 1.0 in which

case both will measure the same.

Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is 
the "real" or "true" power.  Some of that VA may be reactive, 
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.  
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase 
in current and voltage It's just a matter of how MUCH of your 
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is  + or - 90 
degrees out of phase.  If  ALL of the current is in phase with the 
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0.   That is, if you lay them on top of each 
other, they will look 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[Matt]

Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB,

One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 
48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it 
operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even 
get a buzz out of the starter. No workee.

The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He 
can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues.
So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor 
starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled 
by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after.

Matt T


 boB Gudgel  wrote: 
> boB Gudgel wrote:
> 
>  >>So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
> to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or 
> VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will 
> work in all cases.
> 
> 
> OOOps !   See, this can get confusing.   Reverse what I just said  Power 
> Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power"  as 
> David Brearley had just posted.  Otherwise, that calculation can give 
> you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !
> 
> Had to eat some of my words.  I just wanted to point out that the phase 
> shift method was called DPF.   Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
> recently too ?  If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two 
> HP magazines.
> 
> boB
> 
> > R. Walters wrote:
> >> Power factor expresses the time difference  between voltage peak and 
> >> current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage 
> >> waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. 
> >> If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an 
> >> electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a 
> >> second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There 
> >> is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little 
> >> lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
> >
> > This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with 
> > only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called 
> > "Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will  see that on some power 
> > meters.
> >
> > For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies 
> > without PF Correction,  the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks 
> > nothing like a sine or cosine wave.   The current "spikes up" at the 
> > AC voltage peaks.  It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT 
> > the current and the voltage do NOT look the same.  It's non-linear.  
> > Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.
> >
> > For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 
> > 1.0,  the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same 
> > AND there will be no phase shift.   They are both linear and all 
> > current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.
> >
> > So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
> > to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, 
> > or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will 
> > work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).   
> > Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
> > your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt 
> > Amperes)   V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless 
> > the PF = 1.0 in which
> > case both will measure the same.
> >
> > Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is 
> > the "real" or "true" power.  Some of that VA may be reactive, 
> > (inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.  
> > Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase 
> > in current and voltage It's just a matter of how MUCH of your 
> > power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is  + or - 90 
> > degrees out of phase.  If  ALL of the current is in phase with the 
> > voltage, then
> > the power factor is 1.0.   That is, if you lay them on top of each 
> > other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0
> >
> > It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically 
> > it.  Feel free to add to this.
> >
> > boB
> >
> >
> >
> > power meters.
> >
> >
> >> There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary" 
> >> numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that 
> >> everybody wants  Power factor to be close to 1.
> >> Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most 
> >> inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I 
> >> think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most 
> >> situations.
> >>
> >> Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,
> >>
> >>

Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[boB Gudgel]

boB Gudgel wrote:

>>So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or 
VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will 
work in all cases.



OOOps !   See, this can get confusing.   Reverse what I just said  Power 
Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power"  as 
David Brearley had just posted.  Otherwise, that calculation can give 
you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that !


Had to eat some of my words.  I just wanted to point out that the phase 
shift method was called DPF.   Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF
recently too ?  If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two 
HP magazines.


boB


R. Walters wrote:
Power factor expresses the time difference  between voltage peak and 
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage 
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. 
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an 
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a 
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There 
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little 
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.


This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with 
only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called 
"Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will  see that on some power 
meters.


For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies 
without PF Correction,  the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks 
nothing like a sine or cosine wave.   The current "spikes up" at the 
AC voltage peaks.  It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT 
the current and the voltage do NOT look the same.  It's non-linear.  
Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure.


For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 
1.0,  the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same 
AND there will be no phase shift.   They are both linear and all 
current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.


So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best 
to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, 
or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will 
work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).   
Apparent power is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt 
Amperes)   V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless 
the PF = 1.0 in which

case both will measure the same.

Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is 
the "real" or "true" power.  Some of that VA may be reactive, 
(inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.  
Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase 
in current and voltage It's just a matter of how MUCH of your 
power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is  + or - 90 
degrees out of phase.  If  ALL of the current is in phase with the 
voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0.   That is, if you lay them on top of each 
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0


It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically 
it.  Feel free to add to this.


boB



power meters.


There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary" 
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that 
everybody wants  Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most 
inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I 
think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most 
situations.


Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,

R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442















On Jul 30, 2009, at 9:19 AM, boB Gudgel wrote:


Ron Young wrote:
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it 
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|


I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but 
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the 
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %


It was most likely just  a trick question.

You're gonna fool them, though !   :)


boB





I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully 
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my 
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what 
the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used 
by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the 
following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with 
reference to PV:


POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented By: 
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems  
This sessio

Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[boB Gudgel]

R. Walters wrote:
Power factor expresses the time difference  between voltage peak and 
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage 
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. If 
one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an electric 
motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a second 
later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There is a 
little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little lag, 
and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.


This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with only 
inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called "Displacement 
Power Factor (DPF) and you will  see that on some power meters.


For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies 
without PF Correction,  the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks 
nothing like a sine or cosine wave.   The current "spikes up" at the AC 
voltage peaks.  It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT the 
current and the voltage do NOT look the same.  It's non-linear.  Lower 
than 1.0 power factor for sure.


For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 
1.0,  the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same 
AND there will be no phase shift.   They are both linear and all current 
and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle.


So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best to 
think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or VA 
to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive").   That will work in 
all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing).   Apparent power 
is what you get when you multiply
your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt 
Amperes)   V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless the 
PF = 1.0 in which

case both will measure the same.

Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" and is 
the "real" or "true" power.  Some of that VA may be reactive, (inductive 
or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" portion.  Capacitive 
and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase in current and 
voltage It's just a matter of how MUCH of your power is 0 degrees 
phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is  + or - 90 degrees out of phase.  
If  ALL of the current is in phase with the voltage, then
the power factor is 1.0.   That is, if you lay them on top of each 
other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0


It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically it.  
Feel free to add to this.


boB



power meters.


There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary" 
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that everybody 
wants  Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most 
inverters can operate at most power factors. 
Not 100% sure, but I think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF 
problem in most situations.


Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,

R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442















On Jul 30, 2009, at 9:19 AM, boB Gudgel wrote:


Ron Young wrote:
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it 
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|


I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but 
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the 
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %


It was most likely just  a trick question.

You're gonna fool them, though !   :)


boB





I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully 
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my 
case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what the 
utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by 
that residence expressed as a percentage. 
I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses 
Power Factor with reference to PV:


POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented By: 
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems 
 
This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?  
What causes low power factor?  Why improve your power factor? This 
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it 
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000 KVAR 
installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy savings 
with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session 
includes several KVAR installations and the resultant savings. 
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf


Ron

On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote:


There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
 
..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - E

Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[R. Walters]

Power factor expresses the time difference  between voltage peak and  
current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage  
waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1.  
If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an  
electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a  
second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There  
is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little  
lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF.
There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary"  
numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that  
everybody wants  Power factor to be close to 1.
Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most  
inverters can operate at most power factors.
Not 100% sure, but I think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF  
problem in most situations.


Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches,

R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442   



On Jul 30, 2009, at 9:19 AM, boB Gudgel wrote:


Ron Young wrote:
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it  
to British Columbia Hydro? :-|


I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but  
the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the  
total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %


It was most likely just  a trick question.

You're gonna fool them, though !   :)


boB





I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully  
understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue  
my case. My understanding is that it is the difference between  
what the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads  
being used by that residence expressed as a percentage.
I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses  
Power Factor with reference to PV:


POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented By:  
Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems


This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?   
What causes low power factor?  Why improve your power factor? This  
session will explain the role of power factor correction as it  
applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000  
KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy  
savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas  
emissions. Session includes several KVAR installations and the  
resultant savings. http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/ 
industry08_trainingdetails.pdf


Ron

On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote:


There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
 ... 
...

Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
 
..


- Original Message -
*From:* Ron Young 
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor  
for

Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application.
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com


 
 



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[David Brearley]

Ron,

Here is a definition for Power Factor that we used in our String Inverter
guide in SP1.1:

POWER FACTOR AT RATED OUTPUT
Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power in the inverter ac
output circuit at its rated power.
Importance: True power is measured in units of watts and describes the
ability to do useful work. Apparent power includes both work-producing power
and reactive power measured in volt-amperes. Power factor is a comparison of
watts to volt-amperes or real power to apparent power in an ac circuit. If
the power factor in a circuit is 1.0, then all of the power generated is
available to do useful work.

The point is that you can describe the power factor for an inverter‹it
approaches unity (see the Table in SP1.1)‹but this does not apply for PV
modules. You can simply write ³NA² in the space provided. If they ask why,
the simplest explanation it that PV modules are part of a DC circuit and
power factor applies to AC circuits. It¹s not at all uncommon for
interconnection documents to request information that is not applicable to
PV systems.

Best,

David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
SolarPro magazine 
NABCEP Certified PV Installer 
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
Direct: 541.261.6545
Fax:  541.512.0343

Visit our Web site at solarprofessional.com

(Sample copy available for download at: solarprofessional.com/sample)


On 7/30/09 2:00 PM, "Ron Young"  wrote:

> Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to British
> Columbia Hydro? :-|
> 
> I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the
> question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total output in
> Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %
> 
> I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand what
> power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My understanding is
> that it is the difference between what the utility supplies to a residence vs.
> the actual loads being used by that residence expressed as a percentage.
> 
> I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor
> with reference to PV:
> 
> POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS
> Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems
>  
> This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?  What causes
> low power factor?  Why improve
> your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor
> correction as it applies to solar installations.
> There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting
> in phenomenal energy savings with
> a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session includes
> several KVAR installations and the
> resultant savings.
> http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf
> 
> Ron
> 
> On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote:
> 
>> There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
>>  
>> .
>> .
>> Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
>> Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
>> .
>> .
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: Ron Young 
>>> To: RE-wrenches 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
>>> 
>>> Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for Sanyo HIT
>>> N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net metering interconnection
>>> application.  
>>> 
>>> Ron Young
>>> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org 
>>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[boB Gudgel]

Ron Young wrote:
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to 
British Columbia Hydro? :-|


I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the 
question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total 
output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %


It was most likely just  a trick question.

You're gonna fool them, though !   :)


boB





I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand 
what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My 
understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility 
supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that 
residence expressed as a percentage. 

I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses 
Power Factor with reference to PV:


POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS 
Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems 

 

This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?  What 
causes low power factor?  Why improve 
your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor 
correction as it applies to solar installations. 
There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries 
resulting in phenomenal energy savings with 
a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session 
includes several KVAR installations and the 
resultant savings. 
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf


Ron

On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote:


There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.
 
..

Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..

- Original Message -
*From:* Ron Young 
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application.  


Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[Ron Young]

Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to  
British Columbia Hydro? :-|


I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the  
question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total  
output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %


I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand  
what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My  
understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility  
supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that  
residence expressed as a percentage.


I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses  
Power Factor with reference to PV:


POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS
Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems

This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?  What  
causes low power factor?  Why improve
your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor  
correction as it applies to solar installations.
There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries  
resulting in phenomenal energy savings with
a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session  
includes several KVAR installations and the

resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf

Ron

On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote:


There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.

..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
- Original Message -
From: Ron Young
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for  
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net  
metering interconnection application.


Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] "Quick Release" PV System

[Joel Davidson]

Quick-release started with the Los Angeles Fire Department. The PV industry 
rejected quick-release as impractical, costly, an invitation for theft, 
etc., but it won't go away. For lots of background info on fire safety 
requirements, see http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/training/photovoltaics.php



- Original Message - 
From: "Brian White" 

To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 11:18 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Quick Release" PV System


"Quick Release" PV System

I just had a set of plans rejected by the City of Chula Vista, CA, because 
the integrated Tile product that we use did not have a "Quick Release" 
System for the array, so that the Fire Department could remove the array in 
the event of a fire.


Has anyone ever heard of such a requirement? If so, how did you meet this 
requirement, with any style of PV array (BIPV, Standard Modules, peel & 
stick) and still achieve an 85 - 100 mph wind rating? Is it just me, or is 
this city from a different planet.


This issue did not show up on the initial Plan Correction check list from 
the city, but they are calling it out now when we re-submitted. My 
electrician asked them to explain it to me over the phone, because he did 
not think anyone would believe him when he asked for this requirement. I 
have asked for a document or anything that defines this requirement, and 
will share what I find out.


Brian C. White
Sr. Design Engineer - PV Systems

Eagle Roofing Products
120 North Auburn Street - Suite 212
Grass Valley, CA  95945
Phone: 530-273-2948
Cell: 530-575-5550







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[RE-wrenches] Raintight top entrance of Carlon box

[Drake Chamberlin]

William and Wrenches,

To go into the top of a Carlon outdoor enclosure, box connectors are 
available.  The Carlon part numbers are E996D for a 1/2" 
connector.  The numbers for other sizes are E996E for 3/4", E996F for 1", etc.


These are glue in connectors with a NEMA TC - 3 
approval. 
http://www.edwardssupply.com/product.php?productid=63777&cat=1530&page=18


Since the tops of Carlon enclosures are beveled, it might be 
necessary to heat the pipe to make it bend into the box without strain.




Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM  Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648  ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[Wind-sun.com]

There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.

..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ron Young 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor


  Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for Sanyo HIT N 
205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net metering interconnection 
application.  


  Ron Young
  earthRight Products - Solareagle.com




--


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex GT wired monitor

[robert ellison]

Hi Ryan,
Is the cat 5 cable in the same conduit or really close to the AC lines?
I have seen other remotes (Trace) in the same conduit that would scramble,
one would do it in a day or so after power was applied.
I did not do that install but figured out what i thought was happening and
have avoided that situation.. The owner never did correct it as he would
have had to rip up the driveway to cure it.

Bob

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 5:55 PM, ryan  wrote:

> Wrenches i have a unique problem. I have a 2.5kw grid tied system installed
> using a Xantrex GT inverter I also have the wired monitor that uses the
> standard Cat5 cable. The problem is the Remote meter dumps its data randomly
> sometimes once a month and sometimes it will go 3 months. We have changed
> the Inverter, The remote and the Cat5 cable. I am stumped I have made sure
> there is no dc lines any where near by. the only thing remotely close is a
> cordless phone but it is 16 inches away at least. Any ideas?
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