Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[Joe Street]

I agree that B100 would probably burn well in a turbine.  As pointed
out in a previous post turbines will run on a wider range of fuels than
almost any engine (except a steam locomotive??) But knowing something
about the aviation industry I will hazard a guess that this will be the
last place we will see eventually going over to biofuels.  Hell long
after the automotive industry went off tetraethyl lead you still had
plenty of high compression aviation engines running it.  Change comes
about very slowly in the aviation circles. Maybe when the LIM cycle
engine has been around for twenty years and general aviation pilots
begin to hear about the guy who has one a few fields down the way we
will begin to see some acceptance and trust of biofuels for aviation
use.  While airlines may benefit from fuel cost savings they will not
risk running unproven fuel, heck they won't put fuel drained from tanks
back in an aircraft.  Engine manufacturers would have to run thousands
of hours on the alt fuel before they would give approval to it's use
for commercial aircraft use but they don't stand to gain anything from
reduced emissions or airline X's reduced fuel costs so why would they
do it?

I'm not holding my breath on this one.
Joe

TarynToo wrote:

  Hi all,

I wandered the web for a bit and found these as well many others:




While these don't give specific answers, It seems like turboprops might  
be most efficient for delivering large loads, fairly quickly, with  
least fuel. Seems like one of the issues is pounds of fuel per hour vs  
speed. Does anyone know the fuel costs associated with delivering  
people at 800 kmph versus the 500 kmph?

Should we be replacing our medium range jet fleets with turboprops?

Taryn.


On Sep 4, 2005, at 2:43 AM, Alan Petrillo wrote:

  
  
Greg and April wrote:



  The short answer is no.


  

The short answer is _yes_.  Baylor University did some testing with B20
in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine.

The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but  
I
can't find it just now.  A Google search of the site produced this:
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 
19981001_gen-106.pdf

Purdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the  
report
is available here:
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 
19950601_gen-144.pdf

Keep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines.   
As
long as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what
they're running on.  You should see the list of alternate fuels for the
OH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army!

...

  
  
  
  

  Jet travel is also one of the
least efficient forms of transportation there is.

  

That depends on how you look at it.  If you consider it in terms of
passenger seat miles per gallon then it comes out around 24mpg, IIRC,
which beats most SUV's.

I did have a link to an article which went into this much more in  
depth,
but I have lost it.
...

  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[Alan Petrillo]

Mike Weaver wrote:

>The short answer is no.  Yes is just a little longer than no.  Let me 
>know if you have any other language questions.  I do have three degrees 
>in English and am always glad to help.
>  
>

 

Sir, I will take English lessons from you anytime. 


AP


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Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[Mike Weaver]

In Africa DC3's are used.

TarynToo wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I wandered the web for a bit and found these as well many others:
>
>
>q=commercial+aircraft+fuel+efficiency++turboprop>
>
>While these don't give specific answers, It seems like turboprops might  
>be most efficient for delivering large loads, fairly quickly, with  
>least fuel. Seems like one of the issues is pounds of fuel per hour vs  
>speed. Does anyone know the fuel costs associated with delivering  
>people at 800 kmph versus the 500 kmph?
>
>Should we be replacing our medium range jet fleets with turboprops?
>
>Taryn.
>
>
>On Sep 4, 2005, at 2:43 AM, Alan Petrillo wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Greg and April wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>The short answer is no.
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>The short answer is _yes_.  Baylor University did some testing with B20
>>in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine.
>>
>>The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but  
>>I
>>can't find it just now.  A Google search of the site produced this:
>>http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 
>>19981001_gen-106.pdf
>>
>>Purdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the  
>>report
>>is available here:
>>http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 
>>19950601_gen-144.pdf
>>
>>Keep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines.   
>>As
>>long as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what
>>they're running on.  You should see the list of alternate fuels for the
>>OH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army!
>>
>>...
>>
>>
>
>  
>
>>>Jet travel is also one of the
>>>least efficient forms of transportation there is.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>That depends on how you look at it.  If you consider it in terms of
>>passenger seat miles per gallon then it comes out around 24mpg, IIRC,
>>which beats most SUV's.
>>
>>I did have a link to an article which went into this much more in  
>>depth,
>>but I have lost it.
>>...
>>
>>
>
>
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>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[TarynToo]

Hi all,

I wandered the web for a bit and found these as well many others:




While these don't give specific answers, It seems like turboprops might  
be most efficient for delivering large loads, fairly quickly, with  
least fuel. Seems like one of the issues is pounds of fuel per hour vs  
speed. Does anyone know the fuel costs associated with delivering  
people at 800 kmph versus the 500 kmph?

Should we be replacing our medium range jet fleets with turboprops?

Taryn.


On Sep 4, 2005, at 2:43 AM, Alan Petrillo wrote:

> Greg and April wrote:
>
>> The short answer is no.
>>
>>
>
> The short answer is _yes_.  Baylor University did some testing with B20
> in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine.
>
> The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but  
> I
> can't find it just now.  A Google search of the site produced this:
> http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 
> 19981001_gen-106.pdf
>
> Purdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the  
> report
> is available here:
> http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 
> 19950601_gen-144.pdf
>
> Keep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines.   
> As
> long as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what
> they're running on.  You should see the list of alternate fuels for the
> OH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army!
>
> ...

>> Jet travel is also one of the
>> least efficient forms of transportation there is.
>>
>
> That depends on how you look at it.  If you consider it in terms of
> passenger seat miles per gallon then it comes out around 24mpg, IIRC,
> which beats most SUV's.
>
> I did have a link to an article which went into this much more in  
> depth,
> but I have lost it.
> ...


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Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[Mike Weaver]

The short answer is no.  Yes is just a little longer than no.  Let me 
know if you have any other language questions.  I do have three degrees 
in English and am always glad to help.

Alan Petrillo wrote:

>Greg and April wrote:
>
>  
>
>>The short answer is no.
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>
>The short answer is _yes_.  Baylor University did some testing with B20 
>in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine. 
>
>The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but I 
>can't find it just now.  A Google search of the site produced this:
>http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19981001_gen-106.pdf
>
>Purdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the report 
>is available here:
>http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19950601_gen-144.pdf
>
>Keep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines.  As 
>long as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what 
>they're running on.  You should see the list of alternate fuels for the 
>OH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army! 
>
>  
>
>>The long answer is, BioDiesel does not have to BTU's of jet fuel 
>>
>>
>>
>
>No, it doesn't have the specific heat of jet fuel, but it's close enough 
>that it makes little difference operationally. 
>
>  
>
>>( jet fuel
>>is a highly refined cozen to jet fuel with allot of BTU's per gal ), 
>>
>>
>>
>
>Did you by any chance mean "kerosene"? 
>
>Jet-A is high grade kerosene.  Keep in mind, kerosene comes in many 
>flavors, and jet fuel is only one of them. 
>
>  
>
>>nor
>>does it have the ability to take the low temperatures that jet fuel would
>>encounter at altitude.
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>
>This could be taken care of with a properly effective antigel agent. 
>
>  
>
>>These things are workable, but, then you have to carry more fuel, and less
>>cargo, and heated fuel tanks and fuel lines.This adds weight and costs
>>to every aircraft, that is unacceptable.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Many aircraft already have fuel heaters in their fuel lines to prevent 
>fuel icing.  The real problem is to prevent the fuel gelling in the 
>tanks.  Some heat already gets into the fuel tanks in many airliners 
>because they use the fuel tanks as a heat sink for the airconditioning 
>systems.  I think only a good antigel agent would solve this completely, 
>though. 
>
>  
>
>>Jet travel is also one of the
>>least efficient forms of transportation there is.
>>
>>
>>
>
>That depends on how you look at it.  If you consider it in terms of 
>passenger seat miles per gallon then it comes out around 24mpg, IIRC, 
>which beats most SUV's. 
>
>I did have a link to an article which went into this much more in depth, 
>but I have lost it. 
>
>Don't forget, in the airline industry fuel efficiency means profits. 
>
>  
>
>>Using biodiesel would
>>only make it more inefficient.
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>
>Maybe.  But at least it would be using less petroleum. 
>
>
>AP
>
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>
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>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[Pannirselvam P.V]

  Dear Alan,Greg and  Petrillo

   Here in Brazil , the  research  that had been
realized for military  to replace  Jet fuel using BioD 
in 1980  was done  with positive  results, but the
details are not much known as less study were conducted at the time .

    By using  low molecular fatty acids ester
,the  BioD need to be engineered   to be very good
additive.Surely there are problems regard to viscosity.Small jet here
are able to run with alcohol fuel and hence BioD will be also positive
, may not be 100 percent.

sd
Pannirselvam
Brazil
On 9/4/05, Alan Petrillo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Greg and April wrote:>The short answer is no.>>The short answer is _yes_.  Baylor University did some testing with B20in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine.
The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but Ican't find it just now.  A Google search of the site produced this:
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19981001_gen-106.pdfPurdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the reportis available here:
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19950601_gen-144.pdfKeep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines.  Aslong as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what
they're running on.  You should see the list of alternate fuels for theOH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army!>The long answer is, BioDiesel does not have to BTU's of jet fuel>No, it doesn't have the specific heat of jet fuel, but it's close enough
that it makes little difference operationally.>( jet fuel>is a highly refined cozen to jet fuel with allot of BTU's per gal ),>Did you by any chance mean "kerosene"?Jet-A is high grade kerosene.  Keep in mind, kerosene comes in many
flavors, and jet fuel is only one of them.>nor>does it have the ability to take the low temperatures that jet fuel would>encounter at altitude.>>This could be taken care of with a properly effective antigel agent.
>These things are workable, but, then you have to carry more fuel, and less>cargo, and heated fuel tanks and fuel lines.This adds weight and costs>to every aircraft, that is unacceptable.>
Many aircraft already have fuel heaters in their fuel lines to preventfuel icing.  The real problem is to prevent the fuel gelling in thetanks.  Some heat already gets into the fuel tanks in many airliners
because they use the fuel tanks as a heat sink for the airconditioningsystems.  I think only a good antigel agent would solve this completely,though.>Jet travel is also one of the>least efficient forms of transportation there is.
>That depends on how you look at it.  If you consider it in terms ofpassenger seat miles per gallon then it comes out around 24mpg, IIRC,which beats most SUV's.I did have a link to an article which went into this much more in depth,
but I have lost it.Don't forget, in the airline industry fuel efficiency means profits.>Using biodiesel would>only make it more inefficient.>>Maybe.  But at least it would be using less petroleum.
AP___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org
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--   Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRNDepartamento de Engenharia Química - DEQCentro de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus UniversitárioCEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - BrasilResidence :Av  Odilon gome de lima, 2951,   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102
   Capim  MacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal21032171557Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557
Cellular  84  88145083
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Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[des]

Thanks for the info.  I've read it, downloaded the study reports, read 
them, and passed them and your email on to the individual that was 
looking for this information.  Good solid data.  I think that with 
modification of the biodiesel transesterification process the TAN might 
be reduced, and as B20, looks like a potential reducer of dependence on 
petro products.  Even at 20%, the total amount used by the airline 
industry would be reduced significantly.  The CO(sub)2 numbers are 
impressive!  Certainly worth further study and experimentation

Thanks again!

doug swanson



Alan Petrillo wrote:

>Greg and April wrote:
>
>  
>
>>The short answer is no.
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>
>The short answer is _yes_.  Baylor University did some testing with B20 
>in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine. 
>
>The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but I 
>can't find it just now.  A Google search of the site produced this:
>http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19981001_gen-106.pdf
>
>Purdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the report 
>is available here:
>http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19950601_gen-144.pdf
>
>Keep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines.  As 
>long as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what 
>they're running on.  You should see the list of alternate fuels for the 
>OH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army! 
>

-- 
All generalizations are false.  Including this one.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.
No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.
All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. 


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Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[Alan Petrillo]

Greg and April wrote:

>The short answer is no.
>  
>

The short answer is _yes_.  Baylor University did some testing with B20 
in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine. 

The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but I 
can't find it just now.  A Google search of the site produced this:
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19981001_gen-106.pdf

Purdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the report 
is available here:
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19950601_gen-144.pdf

Keep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines.  As 
long as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what 
they're running on.  You should see the list of alternate fuels for the 
OH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army! 

>The long answer is, BioDiesel does not have to BTU's of jet fuel 
>

No, it doesn't have the specific heat of jet fuel, but it's close enough 
that it makes little difference operationally. 

>( jet fuel
>is a highly refined cozen to jet fuel with allot of BTU's per gal ), 
>

Did you by any chance mean "kerosene"? 

Jet-A is high grade kerosene.  Keep in mind, kerosene comes in many 
flavors, and jet fuel is only one of them. 

>nor
>does it have the ability to take the low temperatures that jet fuel would
>encounter at altitude.
>  
>

This could be taken care of with a properly effective antigel agent. 

>These things are workable, but, then you have to carry more fuel, and less
>cargo, and heated fuel tanks and fuel lines.This adds weight and costs
>to every aircraft, that is unacceptable.
>

Many aircraft already have fuel heaters in their fuel lines to prevent 
fuel icing.  The real problem is to prevent the fuel gelling in the 
tanks.  Some heat already gets into the fuel tanks in many airliners 
because they use the fuel tanks as a heat sink for the airconditioning 
systems.  I think only a good antigel agent would solve this completely, 
though. 

>Jet travel is also one of the
>least efficient forms of transportation there is.
>

That depends on how you look at it.  If you consider it in terms of 
passenger seat miles per gallon then it comes out around 24mpg, IIRC, 
which beats most SUV's. 

I did have a link to an article which went into this much more in depth, 
but I have lost it. 

Don't forget, in the airline industry fuel efficiency means profits. 

>Using biodiesel would
>only make it more inefficient.
>  
>

Maybe.  But at least it would be using less petroleum. 


AP

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Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[mphee]

I actually read something about this a couple days ago.  YOu should be able to
google it.

There were problems using it with jets.  Biggest concern was gelling at high
altitudes.


On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 14:46:13 +, des wrote
> A neighbor who recently retired from the airline industry has been 
> asking me lately if there's a biofuel that can be substituted for 
> jet fuel, and although I didn't know at the time, I've done some 
> research since, and see that jet fuel is a variant of diesel. 
> 
> Any one out there know what kind of variant jet fuel is of diesel, 
> (I seem to understand that it resembles kerosene) and can jet fuel 
> be grown?
> 
> doug swanson (in Ellijay, GA, not far from Atlanta GA, where gas 
> prices spiked up to $6.00/gal. for a few hours yesterday)
> 
> -- 


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Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[Greg and April]

The short answer is no.

The long answer is, BioDiesel does not have to BTU's of jet fuel ( jet fuel
is a highly refined cozen to jet fuel with allot of BTU's per gal ), nor
does it have the ability to take the low temperatures that jet fuel would
encounter at altitude.

These things are workable, but, then you have to carry more fuel, and less
cargo, and heated fuel tanks and fuel lines.This adds weight and costs
to every aircraft, that is unacceptable.Jet travel is also one of the
least efficient forms of transportation there is.Using biodiesel would
only make it more inefficient.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "des" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Biofuel List" 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 8:46
Subject: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel


> A neighbor who recently retired from the airline industry has been
> asking me lately if there's a biofuel that can be substituted for jet
> fuel, and although I didn't know at the time, I've done some research
> since, and see that jet fuel is a variant of diesel.
>
> Any one out there know what kind of variant jet fuel is of diesel, (I
> seem to understand that it resembles kerosene) and can jet fuel be grown?
>
> doug swanson (in Ellijay, GA, not far from Atlanta GA, where gas prices
> spiked up to $6.00/gal. for a few hours yesterday)
>
> -- 
> All generalizations are false.  Including this one.
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
> This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.
> No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.
> All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits.
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>


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[Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[des]

A neighbor who recently retired from the airline industry has been 
asking me lately if there's a biofuel that can be substituted for jet 
fuel, and although I didn't know at the time, I've done some research 
since, and see that jet fuel is a variant of diesel. 

Any one out there know what kind of variant jet fuel is of diesel, (I 
seem to understand that it resembles kerosene) and can jet fuel be grown?

doug swanson (in Ellijay, GA, not far from Atlanta GA, where gas prices 
spiked up to $6.00/gal. for a few hours yesterday)

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