Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
The Discovery Channel has a show on this "Super Volcano." http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/supervolcano/supervolcano.html - Original Message - From: "Doug Foskey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 7:35 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil >I have not read this article, but I was wondering if Yellowstone may be > affected by globall warming? It would be catastrophic for the world if a > few > degrees warmer environment made Yellowstone more active. > > regards Doug > (from the down side of the planet) > > On Saturday 28 October 2006 6:36, M&K DuPree wrote: >> Hi Zeke...with a population that is exploding and with it the demand for >> limited resources doing same, how can anyone not expect that we will not >> only continue in the direction of the last 80 years, but accelerate in >> that >> direction? This thread has included the statement "everything changes." >> It occurred to me, however, that indeed it does change, but never >> disappears. Is there solace in this thought? Obviously not for anyone >> who >> has identified totally with "What a Wonderful World" this is, er, was. >> Ah >> well, just in case anyone is still hanging on too dearly, you might check >> out http://bioresonant.com/news.htm. This author says the earth is >> preparing to explode. Now won't that be fun?!!! Mike DuPree - >> Original Message ----- >> From: Zeke Yewdall >> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 2:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil >> >> >> At 9,300 feet elevation, I have little to worry about with regards to >> rising sea levels.But, the climate is already getting pretty wacky. >> I >> was talking to someone who's lived there for over 30 years, and he's seen >> the weather noticeably chance since then. The treeline is moving both >> up >> from the bottom due to hotter summers and drought, and down from the top >> due to colder winters, less snow to protect the trees, and wind. >> Permanent snowfields that used to be 200 foot thick along the divide >> around >> the turn of the century are almost gone now. We just got 22 inches of >> snow at my house wednesday night, which is "normal" for around 1900 or >> so, >> but for the last 80 years or so, it's been quite a bit less snow than the >> previous few hundred years. Alot of our infrastructure was built in the >> period of less snow, so it doesn't cope with the snow that well. If we >> actually get a "normal" winter, it's going to be hard. But if we >> continue >> in the direction of the last 80 years, water, both for cities, and for >> agriculture, is going to get pretty scarce here in Colorado. >> >> >> On 10/25/06, Bob Molloy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Hi Terry, >> The projected rise in sea levels is about five metres >> (just over 16 feet) in the next 100 years. That gives us plenty of time >> to >> pick up our beach umbrellas and move back a few feet. Over 90 per cent of >> our population lives with a half-hour drive of the sea so the issue is >> one >> of great interest here. In my case it will bring the nearest tidal water >> (currently 300 yards away) to within a hundred yards of my front lawn and >> maybe take out a few of my grape vines. >> It's a worry I tell you. >> Regards, >> Bob. >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Terry Dyck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:48 AM >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil >> >> > Hi Bob, >> > >> > New Zealand must be the perfect place to live. You have won awards >> > for environmental projects and you are planting seeds to grow >> diesel >> > trees. Congratulations. Those beaches you mentioned could be in >> > trouble, though, when the sea rises. >> > >> > Terry Dyck >> > >> > >From: "Bob Molloy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> > >To: >> > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil >> > >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:48:43 +1300 >> > > >> > >Jeez Mike, >> > >No, definitely
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
I have not read this article, but I was wondering if Yellowstone may be affected by globall warming? It would be catastrophic for the world if a few degrees warmer environment made Yellowstone more active. regards Doug (from the down side of the planet) On Saturday 28 October 2006 6:36, M&K DuPree wrote: > Hi Zeke...with a population that is exploding and with it the demand for > limited resources doing same, how can anyone not expect that we will not > only continue in the direction of the last 80 years, but accelerate in that > direction? This thread has included the statement "everything changes." > It occurred to me, however, that indeed it does change, but never > disappears. Is there solace in this thought? Obviously not for anyone who > has identified totally with "What a Wonderful World" this is, er, was. Ah > well, just in case anyone is still hanging on too dearly, you might check > out http://bioresonant.com/news.htm. This author says the earth is > preparing to explode. Now won't that be fun?!!! Mike DuPree - > Original Message - > From: Zeke Yewdall > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 2:26 PM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > > > At 9,300 feet elevation, I have little to worry about with regards to > rising sea levels.But, the climate is already getting pretty wacky. I > was talking to someone who's lived there for over 30 years, and he's seen > the weather noticeably chance since then. The treeline is moving both up > from the bottom due to hotter summers and drought, and down from the top > due to colder winters, less snow to protect the trees, and wind. > Permanent snowfields that used to be 200 foot thick along the divide around > the turn of the century are almost gone now. We just got 22 inches of > snow at my house wednesday night, which is "normal" for around 1900 or so, > but for the last 80 years or so, it's been quite a bit less snow than the > previous few hundred years. Alot of our infrastructure was built in the > period of less snow, so it doesn't cope with the snow that well. If we > actually get a "normal" winter, it's going to be hard. But if we continue > in the direction of the last 80 years, water, both for cities, and for > agriculture, is going to get pretty scarce here in Colorado. > > > On 10/25/06, Bob Molloy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Terry, > The projected rise in sea levels is about five metres > (just over 16 feet) in the next 100 years. That gives us plenty of time to > pick up our beach umbrellas and move back a few feet. Over 90 per cent of > our population lives with a half-hour drive of the sea so the issue is one > of great interest here. In my case it will bring the nearest tidal water > (currently 300 yards away) to within a hundred yards of my front lawn and > maybe take out a few of my grape vines. > It's a worry I tell you. > Regards, > Bob. > > - Original Message - > From: "Terry Dyck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:48 AM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > > > Hi Bob, > > > > New Zealand must be the perfect place to live. You have won awards > > for environmental projects and you are planting seeds to grow diesel > > trees. Congratulations. Those beaches you mentioned could be in > > trouble, though, when the sea rises. > > > > Terry Dyck > > > > >From: "Bob Molloy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > > >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:48:43 +1300 > > > > > >Jeez Mike, > > >No, definitely not New Zealand, we've limited > > > our population to four million and we only have an area just a > > > little larger than the British Isles. Besides we've got an > > > anti-nuclear policy and live under an ozone hole for much of the > > > summer. Anyway we've got too much > > water > > > >and forest and mountains and stuff, the South Pole is just over the > > >horizon, we've got all these beaches that nobody uses, deer and > > > horses > > and > > > >pig that run wild, eels in every stream, fish coming out of our ears > > > and sheep everywhere. You'd hate it. > > >Tr
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
Hi Zeke...with a population that is exploding and with it the demand for limited resources doing same, how can anyone not expect that we will not only continue in the direction of the last 80 years, but accelerate in that direction? This thread has included the statement "everything changes." It occurred to me, however, that indeed it does change, but never disappears. Is there solace in this thought? Obviously not for anyone who has identified totally with "What a Wonderful World" this is, er, was. Ah well, just in case anyone is still hanging on too dearly, you might check out http://bioresonant.com/news.htm. This author says the earth is preparing to explode. Now won't that be fun?!!! Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil At 9,300 feet elevation, I have little to worry about with regards to rising sea levels. But, the climate is already getting pretty wacky. I was talking to someone who's lived there for over 30 years, and he's seen the weather noticeably chance since then. The treeline is moving both up from the bottom due to hotter summers and drought, and down from the top due to colder winters, less snow to protect the trees, and wind. Permanent snowfields that used to be 200 foot thick along the divide around the turn of the century are almost gone now. We just got 22 inches of snow at my house wednesday night, which is "normal" for around 1900 or so, but for the last 80 years or so, it's been quite a bit less snow than the previous few hundred years. Alot of our infrastructure was built in the period of less snow, so it doesn't cope with the snow that well. If we actually get a "normal" winter, it's going to be hard. But if we continue in the direction of the last 80 years, water, both for cities, and for agriculture, is going to get pretty scarce here in Colorado. On 10/25/06, Bob Molloy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Terry,The projected rise in sea levels is about five metres (justover 16 feet) in the next 100 years. That gives us plenty of time to pick upour beach umbrellas and move back a few feet. Over 90 per cent of our population lives with a half-hour drive of the sea so the issue is one ofgreat interest here. In my case it will bring the nearest tidal water(currently 300 yards away) to within a hundred yards of my front lawn and maybe take out a few of my grape vines.It's a worry I tell you.Regards,Bob.- Original Message -From: "Terry Dyck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:48 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil> Hi Bob,>> New Zealand must be the perfect place to live. You have won awards for> environmental projects and you are planting seeds to grow diesel trees.> Congratulations. Those beaches you mentioned could be in trouble, though, > when the sea rises.>> Terry Dyck>>> >From: "Bob Molloy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil> >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:48:43 +1300 > >> >Jeez Mike,> >No, definitely not New Zealand, we've limited our> >population to four million and we only have an area just a little larger> >than the British Isles. Besides we've got an anti-nuclear policy and live > >under an ozone hole for much of the summer. Anyway we've got too muchwater> >and forest and mountains and stuff, the South Pole is just over the> >horizon, we've got all these beaches that nobody uses, deer and horses and> >pig that run wild, eels in every stream, fish coming out of our ears and> >sheep everywhere. You'd hate it.> >Trust me,> >Bob.> > - Original Message -> > From: M&K DuPree> > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 1:07 AM> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > >> >> > See Stephen Leeb's The Coming Economic Collapse: How You Can ThriveWhen> >Oil Costs $200 a Barrel. Leeb would have us buying stocks in various> >companies because that's his business. The points he makes about why the > >price of oil must rise to levels far be
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
At 9,300 feet elevation, I have little to worry about with regards to rising sea levels. But, the climate is already getting pretty wacky. I was talking to someone who's lived there for over 30 years, and he's seen the weather noticeably chance since then. The treeline is moving both up from the bottom due to hotter summers and drought, and down from the top due to colder winters, less snow to protect the trees, and wind. Permanent snowfields that used to be 200 foot thick along the divide around the turn of the century are almost gone now. We just got 22 inches of snow at my house wednesday night, which is "normal" for around 1900 or so, but for the last 80 years or so, it's been quite a bit less snow than the previous few hundred years. Alot of our infrastructure was built in the period of less snow, so it doesn't cope with the snow that well. If we actually get a "normal" winter, it's going to be hard. But if we continue in the direction of the last 80 years, water, both for cities, and for agriculture, is going to get pretty scarce here in Colorado. On 10/25/06, Bob Molloy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Terry,The projected rise in sea levels is about five metres (justover 16 feet) in the next 100 years. That gives us plenty of time to pick upour beach umbrellas and move back a few feet. Over 90 per cent of our population lives with a half-hour drive of the sea so the issue is one ofgreat interest here. In my case it will bring the nearest tidal water(currently 300 yards away) to within a hundred yards of my front lawn and maybe take out a few of my grape vines.It's a worry I tell you.Regards,Bob.- Original Message -From: "Terry Dyck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:48 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > Hi Bob,>> New Zealand must be the perfect place to live. You have won awards for> environmental projects and you are planting seeds to grow diesel trees.> Congratulations. Those beaches you mentioned could be in trouble, though, > when the sea rises.>> Terry Dyck>>> >From: "Bob Molloy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil> >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:48:43 +1300 > >> >Jeez Mike,> >No, definitely not New Zealand, we've limited our> >population to four million and we only have an area just a little larger> >than the British Isles. Besides we've got an anti-nuclear policy and live > >under an ozone hole for much of the summer. Anyway we've got too muchwater> >and forest and mountains and stuff, the South Pole is just over the> >horizon, we've got all these beaches that nobody uses, deer and horses and> >pig that run wild, eels in every stream, fish coming out of our ears and> >sheep everywhere. You'd hate it.> >Trust me,> >Bob.> > - Original Message - > > From: M&K DuPree> > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 1:07 AM> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > >> >> > See Stephen Leeb's The Coming Economic Collapse: How You Can ThriveWhen> >Oil Costs $200 a Barrel. Leeb would have us buying stocks in various> >companies because that's his business. The points he makes about why the > >price of oil must rise to levels far beyond we know today are my reasonfor> >directing our attention to the book. It really does come down to amassive> >population growing exponentially and an economic model promoted by the USA.> > Bottom line is, we're screwed, at least as far as the world as we've> >known it run on oil is concerned. Maybe all the JTF List could put our> >money, talents, and lives together on some remote island or somewhere in > >New Zealand and start something that might survive through the comingchaos> >and become a beacon of hope to the world. Use the JTF Credo as our basis> >for community life. I'm serious! What, aint gonna happen??? Ah well, to> >unquote something the bard didn't say, all's not well that doesn't end> >well. Ah well... Mike DuPree> >___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
Hi Terry, The projected rise in sea levels is about five metres (just over 16 feet) in the next 100 years. That gives us plenty of time to pick up our beach umbrellas and move back a few feet. Over 90 per cent of our population lives with a half-hour drive of the sea so the issue is one of great interest here. In my case it will bring the nearest tidal water (currently 300 yards away) to within a hundred yards of my front lawn and maybe take out a few of my grape vines. It's a worry I tell you. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: "Terry Dyck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > Hi Bob, > > New Zealand must be the perfect place to live. You have won awards for > environmental projects and you are planting seeds to grow diesel trees. > Congratulations. Those beaches you mentioned could be in trouble, though, > when the sea rises. > > Terry Dyck > > > >From: "Bob Molloy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >To: > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:48:43 +1300 > > > >Jeez Mike, > >No, definitely not New Zealand, we've limited our > >population to four million and we only have an area just a little larger > >than the British Isles. Besides we've got an anti-nuclear policy and live > >under an ozone hole for much of the summer. Anyway we've got too much water > >and forest and mountains and stuff, the South Pole is just over the > >horizon, we've got all these beaches that nobody uses, deer and horses and > >pig that run wild, eels in every stream, fish coming out of our ears and > >sheep everywhere. You'd hate it. > >Trust me, > >Bob. > > ----- Original Message - > > From: M&K DuPree > > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 1:07 AM > > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > > > > > > See Stephen Leeb's The Coming Economic Collapse: How You Can Thrive When > >Oil Costs $200 a Barrel. Leeb would have us buying stocks in various > >companies because that's his business. The points he makes about why the > >price of oil must rise to levels far beyond we know today are my reason for > >directing our attention to the book. It really does come down to a massive > >population growing exponentially and an economic model promoted by the USA. > > Bottom line is, we're screwed, at least as far as the world as we've > >known it run on oil is concerned. Maybe all the JTF List could put our > >money, talents, and lives together on some remote island or somewhere in > >New Zealand and start something that might survive through the coming chaos > >and become a beacon of hope to the world. Use the JTF Credo as our basis > >for community life. I'm serious! What, aint gonna happen??? Ah well, to > >unquote something the bard didn't say, all's not well that doesn't end > >well. Ah well... Mike DuPree > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
Hi Bob, New Zealand must be the perfect place to live. You have won awards for environmental projects and you are planting seeds to grow diesel trees. Congratulations. Those beaches you mentioned could be in trouble, though, when the sea rises. Terry Dyck >From: "Bob Molloy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >To: >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:48:43 +1300 > >Jeez Mike, >No, definitely not New Zealand, we've limited our >population to four million and we only have an area just a little larger >than the British Isles. Besides we've got an anti-nuclear policy and live >under an ozone hole for much of the summer. Anyway we've got too much water >and forest and mountains and stuff, the South Pole is just over the >horizon, we've got all these beaches that nobody uses, deer and horses and >pig that run wild, eels in every stream, fish coming out of our ears and >sheep everywhere. You'd hate it. >Trust me, >Bob. > - Original Message - > From: M&K DuPree > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 1:07 AM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > > > See Stephen Leeb's The Coming Economic Collapse: How You Can Thrive When >Oil Costs $200 a Barrel. Leeb would have us buying stocks in various >companies because that's his business. The points he makes about why the >price of oil must rise to levels far beyond we know today are my reason for >directing our attention to the book. It really does come down to a massive >population growing exponentially and an economic model promoted by the USA. > Bottom line is, we're screwed, at least as far as the world as we've >known it run on oil is concerned. Maybe all the JTF List could put our >money, talents, and lives together on some remote island or somewhere in >New Zealand and start something that might survive through the coming chaos >and become a beacon of hope to the world. Use the JTF Credo as our basis >for community life. I'm serious! What, aint gonna happen??? Ah well, to >unquote something the bard didn't say, all's not well that doesn't end >well. Ah well... Mike DuPree > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > _ Buy, Load, Play. The new Sympatico / MSN Music Store works seamlessly with Windows Media Player. Just Click PLAY. http://musicstore.sympatico.msn.ca/content/viewer.aspx?cid=SMS_Sept192006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
Jeez Mike, No, definitely not New Zealand, we've limited our population to four million and we only have an area just a little larger than the British Isles. Besides we've got an anti-nuclear policy and live under an ozone hole for much of the summer. Anyway we've got too much water and forest and mountains and stuff, the South Pole is just over the horizon, we've got all these beaches that nobody uses, deer and horses and pig that run wild, eels in every stream, fish coming out of our ears and sheep everywhere. You'd hate it. Trust me, Bob. - Original Message - From: M&K DuPree To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 1:07 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil See Stephen Leeb's The Coming Economic Collapse: How You Can Thrive When Oil Costs $200 a Barrel. Leeb would have us buying stocks in various companies because that's his business. The points he makes about why the price of oil must rise to levels far beyond we know today are my reason for directing our attention to the book. It really does come down to a massive population growing exponentially and an economic model promoted by the USA. Bottom line is, we're screwed, at least as far as the world as we've known it run on oil is concerned. Maybe all the JTF List could put our money, talents, and lives together on some remote island or somewhere in New Zealand and start something that might survive through the coming chaos and become a beacon of hope to the world. Use the JTF Credo as our basis for community life. I'm serious! What, aint gonna happen??? Ah well, to unquote something the bard didn't say, all's not well that doesn't end well. Ah well... Mike DuPree ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
LOL...you bum...just gotta gloat, don't ya? I would too. Congrats. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil Jeez Mike, No, definitely not New Zealand, we've limited our population to four million and we only have an area just a little larger than the British Isles. Besides we've got an anti-nuclear policy and live under an ozone hole for much of the summer. Anyway we've got too much water and forest and mountains and stuff, the South Pole is just over the horizon, we've got all these beaches that nobody uses, deer and horses and pig that run wild, eels in every stream, fish coming out of our ears and sheep everywhere. You'd hate it. Trust me, Bob. - Original Message - From: M&K DuPree To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 1:07 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil See Stephen Leeb's The Coming Economic Collapse: How You Can Thrive When Oil Costs $200 a Barrel. Leeb would have us buying stocks in various companies because that's his business. The points he makes about why the price of oil must rise to levels far beyond we know today are my reason for directing our attention to the book. It really does come down to a massive population growing exponentially and an economic model promoted by the USA. Bottom line is, we're screwed, at least as far as the world as we've known it run on oil is concerned. Maybe all the JTF List could put our money, talents, and lives together on some remote island or somewhere in New Zealand and start something that might survive through the coming chaos and become a beacon of hope to the world. Use the JTF Credo as our basis for community life. I'm serious! What, aint gonna happen??? Ah well, to unquote something the bard didn't say, all's not well that doesn't end well. Ah well... Mike DuPree ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
See Stephen Leeb's The Coming Economic Collapse: How You Can Thrive When Oil Costs $200 a Barrel. Leeb would have us buying stocks in various companies because that's his business. The points he makes about why the price of oil must rise to levels far beyond we know today are my reason for directing our attention to the book. It really does come down to a massive population growing exponentially and an economic model promoted by the USA. Bottom line is, we're screwed, at least as far as the world as we've known it run on oil is concerned. Maybe all the JTF List could put our money, talents, and lives together on some remote island or somewhere in New Zealand and start something that might survive through the coming chaos and become a beacon of hope to the world. Use the JTF Credo as our basis for community life. I'm serious! What, aint gonna happen??? Ah well, to unquote something the bard didn't say, all's not well that doesn't end well. Ah well... Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > Thompson, Mark L. (PNB R&D) wrote:>> What is all this "Peak Oil" end of the world garbage.> > Oil is a finite resource. All that remains to debate is when we will "run> out" (and what the definition of that is). I think things get ugly once> core demand exceeds production on a world scale. Personally, I expect> that within my lifetime. I think affordability will be a factor long> before oil is exhausted in a technical sense.> > I trust you have read Deffeyes, Hubbert, ASPO, Simmons, etc. and have> evidence that debunks them.> >>>> We have many decades if not 100+ years of conventional oil left.> > Emmm, actually North America has about 5 years of conventional oil left,> if it were not for imports. (6 if you include ANWR.) Does your forecast> allow for increasing and accelerating rates of consumption year over year?> Or does it assume flat consumption into the future, like the optimistic> government forecasts?> >> We have huge amounts of Tar Sands (1.7 Trillion barrels) to exploit.> > Actually, I doubt we can afford to do that. The groundwater and natural> gas consumed in that processing will run out first. If we use oil from> the oil sands to make more oil from the oil sands, my understanding is> that this is a losing proposition on an EROEI basis based on the exising> process and facilities (from oil sand to refined consumer product).> >> We have potential 1000's of years worth of Methane-Hydrates available.> > For which we currently do not have a viable technology in place as yet to> harvest them. The implications of releasing that much methane into the> environment (leakage, losses, accidents), or even the carbon dioxide> resulting from using it do not bode well for habitability of the planet> for humans in the long term. Perhaps you plan to use this methane to> support the production of oil from the oil sands.> >> Estimated to be greater than twice the world total of oil.>> We have almost limitless Nuclear energy potential through the use of>> Breeder, Light water and Heavy water reactors.> > And no solutions in place on how to deal with the spent fuel on a> permanent basis, well, other than putting them into weapons, be they> nuclear weapons, depleted uranium in artillery shells, or dirty bombs. > Even France is having second thoughts about the breeder cycle.> >> Not to mention the other - Wind - Water - Solar - BioFuels - etc.> > Now we're getting to sustainable solutions.> >> All of which are up and coming. The higher energy cost go up the more>> pressure there will be on "Alternate" sources.> > Do you think we have enough time to implement these solutions on a mass> scale before oil and natural gas shortages, even intermittent ones, are> disrupting the technological infrastructure that underpins western> "civilization"? Alberta has just put a road-block in front of further> wind development in the province. The U.S. federal government is actively> working against the Cape wind project. However, billions are being spent> on green-washing coal.> >>>> As said before "Everything changes." All we need to do is plan for then>> and adapt.> > There are limits to adaptation. Extinction is also an option. If the> average temperature on the planet's surface rises dramatically, we won't> last long. Humans don't survive long when exposed to temperatures above> 40 degrees C for extended peri
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
Jason, I think if things play out as you "visualize things" that may be true. I don't know if that will truly be the reality of it. I have all the survival skills needed if I had to go into the elements as they are today. I was fortunate to be raised by those that still honed and practiced those skills. The thing that scares me about it is if the weather goes to extremes and the food cannot be raised well in a cycle and the creatures are few and out of balance with the cycle I would have no more chance than a city fellow dropped into the Canadian wilds without any preparations in winter. From what I have read of the predictions of "how it will be" things will be closer to the prophecies in the book of Revelation. - Original Message - From: "Jason& Katie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil the large cities will die in fires, riots, and street-by-street fighting, but the small towns with only a few hundred farmer friends and neighbors will get by, just for the simple fact that food wont be too big of a problem, and people will learn to make-do, like so many times before. practical carpentry will even be worth the work again, considering the only metals we could use would be within the temp range of methane (copper, brass, tin, lead, aluminum, etc). civilization WILL ceace, for a time, but humans are like roaches- we can survive just about anything. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: M&K DuPree To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil "When we realize the everlasting truth of 'everything changes,' and find our composure in it, we find ourselves in nirvana." -- Shunryu Suzuki No doubt about it, the world runs on oil. No oil, no world, at least as we have known it. The realization of this when gas prices spiked a year ago or so is what brought me to the List, thinking maybe biodiesel might provide an answer. Then I realized I didn't want to fight my neighbor for the last drop of WVO. Now I walk more and use my bicycle. But the world around me and my own too still runs on oil, so for now there is a kind of unsettled peace, which is really nothing new. Nonetheless I recognize my individual efforts are feeble in the face of the inevitable--a world run on oil run out of oil. Whatever it will look like, it will look like, he said blithely from within the comfort of his fossil fuel-based economy. I guess I'm not totally convinced the savage world of "Norman" will exist. One reason, so much of the "savagery" we see today seems to me to stem from a widening of that old battle of class warfare. But what happens when most of the folks around truly have only each other to depend upon to survive? Can someone who lived during the Depression tell me? My mom said folks were much more inclined to help each other. Maybe she's so old she remembers only what she wants to remember, which is certainly her prerogative, having lived longer than I can probably only hope I will. Am I being too naive, too simplistic? Too freakin afraid of what the heck "Norman" is saying? Well, now that my present is totally dispersed and I'm looking into the black hole of a world gone more mad than it already is, I have to bring myself back to my present. No doubt my acts today are the basis for what happens tomorrow. So, how shall I act? That question used to focus on more of a moral answer, of how I treated myself and my neighbor. Now the question and answer have changed, evolved into something far bigger than any one of us individually is truly capable of wrapping our minds around or doing anything about. So, how shall I act? "Norman" would have me learn how to use a knife and bow and arrow, I guess for eating rats, or squirrels, which, by the way gawd knows there are way too many of those buggers running around. My neighbors don't like hearing me talk about skinning and eating them. I try and point out how many there are and how destructive they are and that lone falcon flying around can only eat so much, but the economy is still fueled too much by oil, and I hear "I'm an animal lover." Whatever. Yeah...whatever. "Everything changes." And, I guess I'll "cross that bridge when I come to it." Maybe I'll know how to use a knife and bow and arrow by then--or maybe not. Mike DuPree ----- Original Message - From: "AltEnergyNetwork" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:05 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > Major Problems Of
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
Thompson, Mark L. (PNB R&D) wrote: > What is all this "Peak Oil" end of the world garbage. Oil is a finite resource. All that remains to debate is when we will "run out" (and what the definition of that is). I think things get ugly once core demand exceeds production on a world scale. Personally, I expect that within my lifetime. I think affordability will be a factor long before oil is exhausted in a technical sense. I trust you have read Deffeyes, Hubbert, ASPO, Simmons, etc. and have evidence that debunks them. > > We have many decades if not 100+ years of conventional oil left. Emmm, actually North America has about 5 years of conventional oil left, if it were not for imports. (6 if you include ANWR.) Does your forecast allow for increasing and accelerating rates of consumption year over year? Or does it assume flat consumption into the future, like the optimistic government forecasts? > We have huge amounts of Tar Sands (1.7 Trillion barrels) to exploit. Actually, I doubt we can afford to do that. The groundwater and natural gas consumed in that processing will run out first. If we use oil from the oil sands to make more oil from the oil sands, my understanding is that this is a losing proposition on an EROEI basis based on the exising process and facilities (from oil sand to refined consumer product). > We have potential 1000's of years worth of Methane-Hydrates available. For which we currently do not have a viable technology in place as yet to harvest them. The implications of releasing that much methane into the environment (leakage, losses, accidents), or even the carbon dioxide resulting from using it do not bode well for habitability of the planet for humans in the long term. Perhaps you plan to use this methane to support the production of oil from the oil sands. > Estimated to be greater than twice the world total of oil. > We have almost limitless Nuclear energy potential through the use of > Breeder, Light water and Heavy water reactors. And no solutions in place on how to deal with the spent fuel on a permanent basis, well, other than putting them into weapons, be they nuclear weapons, depleted uranium in artillery shells, or dirty bombs. Even France is having second thoughts about the breeder cycle. > Not to mention the other - Wind - Water - Solar - BioFuels - etc. Now we're getting to sustainable solutions. > All of which are up and coming. The higher energy cost go up the more > pressure there will be on "Alternate" sources. Do you think we have enough time to implement these solutions on a mass scale before oil and natural gas shortages, even intermittent ones, are disrupting the technological infrastructure that underpins western "civilization"? Alberta has just put a road-block in front of further wind development in the province. The U.S. federal government is actively working against the Cape wind project. However, billions are being spent on green-washing coal. > > As said before "Everything changes." All we need to do is plan for then > and adapt. There are limits to adaptation. Extinction is also an option. If the average temperature on the planet's surface rises dramatically, we won't last long. Humans don't survive long when exposed to temperatures above 40 degrees C for extended periods. > Go for it Anti-Carbon Crusaders, I see it coming. If we render the planet's surface uninhabitable for humans, where do you suggest we go? Space travel for 8 billion humans plus some life support strikes me as a rather energy intensive proposition. Darryl > > Mark > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Mullan > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:14 PM > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > > They used to do without any real significant oil back when? Say 1800s? > > The only difference was the size of the population. That will be the > cause of chaos since oil bred the population. > > I expect I only have 20 years left and with my luck, it will happen > before than. > > Sorry. Just my 2cents rambling. > > John > > > On 10/19/2006, "M&K DuPree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>No doubt about it, the world runs on oil. No oil, no world, at >>least as we have known it. The realization of this when gas prices >>spiked a year > > > > > Yeah...whatever. "Everything changes." And, I guess I'll "cross > that bridge when I come to it." Maybe I'll know how to use a knife and > bow and arrow by then--or maybe not. Mike DuPree > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
What is all this "Peak Oil" end of the world garbage. We have many decades if not 100+ years of conventional oil left. We have huge amounts of Tar Sands (1.7 Trillion barrels) to exploit. We have potential 1000's of years worth of Methane-Hydrates available. Estimated to be greater than twice the world total of oil. We have almost limitless Nuclear energy potential through the use of Breeder, Light water and Heavy water reactors. Not to mention the other - Wind - Water - Solar - BioFuels - etc. All of which are up and coming. The higher energy cost go up the more pressure there will be on "Alternate" sources. As said before "Everything changes." All we need to do is plan for then and adapt. Go for it Anti-Carbon Crusaders, I see it coming. Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Mullan Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:14 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil They used to do without any real significant oil back when? Say 1800s? The only difference was the size of the population. That will be the cause of chaos since oil bred the population. I expect I only have 20 years left and with my luck, it will happen before than. Sorry. Just my 2cents rambling. John On 10/19/2006, "M&K DuPree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No doubt about it, the world runs on oil. No oil, no world, at > least as we have known it. The realization of this when gas prices > spiked a year Yeah...whatever. "Everything changes." And, I guess I'll "cross that bridge when I come to it." Maybe I'll know how to use a knife and bow and arrow by then--or maybe not. Mike DuPree ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
Hi John...great to hear a relatively unheard JTF voice, even if only "2cents rambling." Yeah, the size of the population. Maybe there's still enough room for everyone, but not resources, especially as the population continues growing exponentially. Hard to think too much about this, however. Hard to think too much beyond the very moment, not in terms of "gotta get mine now," but in imagining whatever the future may hold. No doubt there are trends, but trends get reversed. Something happens, just one thing somewhere, and "everything changes." So I'm finding for me personally that my only true "salvation" is right here, right now, and to try and be decent about it. Toss in those 2cents anytime Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: "John Mullan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil > They used to do without any real significant oil back when? Say 1800s?> > The only difference was the size of the population. That will be the> cause of chaos since oil bred the population.> > I expect I only have 20 years left and with my luck, it will happen> before than.> > Sorry. Just my 2cents rambling.> > John> > > On 10/19/2006, "M&K DuPree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> >> No doubt about it, the world runs on oil. No oil, no world, at least as we have known it. The realization of this when gas prices spiked a year > > > > Yeah...whatever. "Everything changes." And, I guess I'll> "cross that bridge when I come to it." Maybe I'll know how to use a> knife and bow and arrow by then--or maybe not. Mike DuPree> > > > > > > ___> Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
They used to do without any real significant oil back when? Say 1800s? The only difference was the size of the population. That will be the cause of chaos since oil bred the population. I expect I only have 20 years left and with my luck, it will happen before than. Sorry. Just my 2cents rambling. John On 10/19/2006, "M&K DuPree" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No doubt about it, the world runs on oil. No oil, no world, at least as > we have known it. The realization of this when gas prices spiked a year Yeah...whatever. "Everything changes." And, I guess I'll "cross that bridge when I come to it." Maybe I'll know how to use a knife and bow and arrow by then--or maybe not. Mike DuPree ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil
Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil Interesting and scary scenario, regards tallex Major Problems Of Surviving Peak Oil By Norman 18 October, 2006 http://www.countercurrents.org/po-norman181006.htm "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell Rob Hopkins says in Why the Survivalists Have Got It Wrong that he has very little time for the survivalist response to peak oil, and refers to Preparing for a Crash: Nuts and Bolts by Zachary Nowak. Rob may well be partially right but he, like Zachary Nowak and many other community minded people tend to miss or are just in denial with the true reality of what the effects of Peak Oil will really mean. REPLACEMENT TECHNOLOGY One of the words that seem to go with community is renewable. These words seem to go hand in hand, so let us take a look at them starting with renewable energy. There are many fascinating and exciting renewable energy developments from wind turbines, solar energy and biomass etc. These are all important energy sources for the future and they could help keep the electricity grid going to some degree! The popular assumption is that these renewable energy sources will smoothly replace fossil fuels as these become scarce, thanks to our inherited technological expertise. However, although these all produce electricity they are not liquid fuels. On top of this we must remember that the energy budget must always be positive and output must exceed input. Too much tends to be expected of renewable energy generators today, because the contribution of fossil fuels to the input side is poorly understood. For example, a wind turbine is not successful as a renewable generator unless another similar one can be constructed from its raw materials using only the energy that the first one generates in its lifetime, and still show a worthwhile budget surplus. Or, if corn is grown to produce bioethanol, the energy input to ploughing, sowing, fertilizing, weeding, harvesting and processing the crop must come from the previous year's bioethanol production. Input must also include, proportionately, mining and processing the raw materials and building the machines that do the work, as well as supporting their human operators. There is nothing that can replace cheap oil for price, ease of storage, ease of transportation and sheer volumes in the timeframe we need. SO WHAT ABOUT COMMUNITY. In Powerdown, Richard Heinberg states, Those who already enjoy a measure of self-sufficiency, such as ecovillages and other kinds of sustainable intentional communities will already have some of the skills and experience needed for re-localization. He also goes on to say that, self-sustaining communities may become cultural lifeboats in times to come and that Our society is going to change profoundlythose of us who understand this are in a position to steward that change. We are going to become popular, needed people in our communities. Now this may be true but no matter how prepared an intentional community or organized neighbourhood may be, it will still be adversely impacted in some way. The changes that are about to effect the world will also affect these communities. Experts suggest several possible scenarios for the coming energy decline and any of these scenarios will present significant challenges for intentional communities. Even in the soft landing scenario, there will still be massive structural changes in society and being in debt may be the undoing of many. Common advice among many Peak Oil experts is to get out of debt! Lets say for example, that a community is deeply in debt, and is still paying off its property purchase loans. Lets say the community loses its financial resource base if members lose their jobs or if a weak economy reduces the market for the goods and services the community produces the group could default on its loan payments, and may have its property seized by the bank or other creditors. A property-value crash may worsen the debt situation for intentional communities. If a communitys property value falls below their equity in the property, they wont be able to save themselves from defaulting on loans by selling off their land, which is typically the last resort of farmers in debt. All the shortages and systems failures that can affect mainstream culture can affect intentional communities as well. A community may not have enough foresight, labour, tools, or funds to create alternatives to whatever their members use now for heating, lighting, cooking, refrigeration, water collection, water pumping, and disposal utilization of gray water and human waste. Then theres the matter of community securitya subject many find politically incorrect to even consider. If the government fails; if the law and order system falls apart, there can be variou