Re: [time-nuts] How to start a new topic

[David C. Partridge]

Yes, you send a mail with a new subject. Please don't CHANGE the subject of a 
thread or topic, as that doesn't actually start a new topic.

I also suggest that you send email to the reflector as "Plain Text". 

HtH,
David Partridge
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Volker Esper
Sent: 02 November 2012 13:46
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] How to start a new topic

Fellow time-nuts,

I am new in this mailing list and a little bit unfamiliar with it, so I hope 
I'm not doing something stupid.

How do I start a new topic? Simply send a mail with a new subject?

Thanks a lot

Volker



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Re: [time-nuts] For my whole life timezones have been weird

[David C. Partridge]

Windows actually CHANGES the RTC at DST changover, rather than let it tick 
montinically, and adjust the offset. 

This is what is bad ...

Dave

Regards,
David Partridge
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of li...@lazygranch.com
Sent: 03 November 2012 08:38
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] For my whole life timezones have been weird

Microsoft also does updates regarding the day daylight savings time changes, 
similar to that Apple message.

I suspect I'm not following this thread correctly. What I got from the orignal 
thread is Microsoft will "thunk" the RTC during the switchover. I'm going to 
make it a point to insure NTP is logging correctly, and then look for a time 
error at the switch over. (2AM I think.)


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Re: [time-nuts] 12.8 MHz OCXO

[David C. Partridge]

With only 0.25ppm needed would a TCXO do?

Howsabout this:



or 



or even




Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Joseph Gray
Sent: 24 November 2012 08:26
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] 12.8 MHz OCXO

Can anyone recommend an inexpensive 12.8 MHz OCXO that outputs a sine wave? 
I've looked online, but the only ones I find costs hundreds of dollars. 
Anything 0.25 ppm or better is fine. A Vcc of 5-13.8 VDC preferred.

Joe Gray
W5JG

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Re: [time-nuts] EIP545A 18GHz counter query

[David C. Partridge]

Hmmm you run the risk of deafening the counter with 5Vpp (2.5V into 50R). 

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Chris Wilson
Sent: 29 November 2012 15:57
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EIP545A 18GHz counter query




> 29/11/2012 09:30

> The replacement for the missing U6 chip arrived this morning and it 
> now completes the 200 MHz self test It will read up to the limit of my 
> frequency generator on Band 3 which is only 1040 MHz, but looks 
> promising.

> Band 2 also works, but seemingly has an anomaly. I cannot get Band 2 
> to read below 185.000 MHz. If I input 184.900 it won't read it and 
> displays zeros. 185 and up is OK... Weird. It should read from 10 MHz 
> up to 1 GHz. It'll go to 1 GHz plus AOK.

> Band 1 appears to work fine.

> These tests are with both my GPS referenced external standard and the 
> internal reference used.

> So Band 2 appears to have a further issue. Will refer to the manual 
> and see if I can fathom it out. Any ideas as to why Band 2 will only 
> read from 185 MHz upwards please? Thanks.




29/11/2012 15:53

OK, I may be doing something foolish.

David Partridge was able to supply one of his last remaining frequency dividers 
to me, for use with my TB GPS standard. It works perfectly and is now in a nice 
enclosure feeding a small array of BNC sockets on my shack wall. I take the 10 
MHz output of the Thunderbolt into David's frequency divider:

http://www.perdrix.co.uk/FrequencyDivider/index.html

I have the 10MHz output from David's divider feeding the counter. When fed from 
this the Band 2 seems unreliable starting at 10MHz. If I feed it 10Mhz at 50mV 
from my sig gen it starts reliably. Is it a mismatch from the divider, or has 
it perhaps not got enough drive level?

-- 
   Best Regards,
   Chris Wilson.


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[time-nuts] Sir Patrick Moore

[David C. Partridge]

Related to time-nuttery as astonomical observation was used for time-keeping 
until C20.

Sir Patrick Moore, the great amateur astonomer died yesterday at the age of 89. 
 A gentleman, astronomer, and true scholar.  His death was predicatable as he's 
been very ill for a long time, but nonetheless a great loss.

Regards,
David Partridge


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Re: [time-nuts] A New Years Resolution.

[David C. Partridge]

Please don't do that - start a complete new thread instead by posting a 
completely new message (i.e. not a reply).

The threading on many engines doesn't use the subject line at all. 


Regards,
David Partridge
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Max Robinson
Sent: 02 January 2013 04:27
To: Time Nuts; HP Equipment; Fun with Tubes; Fun with Transistors; Blind Like Me
Subject: [time-nuts] A New Years Resolution.

I hereby resolve to look at the subject line of every message I send and change 
it if necessary.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O DS.

Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: 
http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site 
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com

To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to.
funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, 
funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to 
funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

[David C. Partridge]

Yes the 1992 4E adjustment is a bear. Mine behaves pretty much the same, ISTR 
it took me a few days to get it adjusted to my satisfaction and it was still 
drifting a bit.

Interestingly I saw a 1992 with a built in Rb on eBay (I think in France) some 
years back but the price went way beyong my budget.

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Fabio Eboli
Sent: 14 January 2013 23:09
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Counter OCXO behaviour

I answer here to all, thank Ed David and Charles for your thoughts.
David, LOL, you posted the pic of the exact counter in question.
Not a similar unit, I mean it's exactly *that* 1992 that is being measured ;)


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[time-nuts] Racal MA-259 Crystal frequency standard on UK eBay

[David C. Partridge]

Dave

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Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

[David C. Partridge]

PTAT == Proportional To Absolute Temperature 

Dave

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[time-nuts] Thunderbolt firmware to E-level ?

[David C. Partridge]

Something I saw in John Miles recent post on the TB thread leads me to ask if a 
regular TB can be upgraded to TB-E level firmaware, and if so is sensible to do 
so?

Thanks
Dave

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Re: [time-nuts] Found at a surplus store

[David C. Partridge]

Hi Pete 

How many did you buy? 

Where did you find 'em?

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Pete Lancashire
Sent: 05 March 2013 04:53
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Found at a surplus store

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/111617808980322733757/albums/5851716840178315361

$5 each

worth the $5 ?

-pete
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Re: [time-nuts] Dave Partridge Version 2 Full Board available

[David C. Partridge]

While on this subject, if anyone should want me to, I am quite happy to put the 
Gerbers for the PCB on my website. 


Regards,
David Partridge
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of James Robbins
Sent: 05 June 2013 13:06
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Dave Partridge Version 2 Full Board available

I have a spare new unused, fully populated, Version 2 Frequency Divider board 
by Dave Partridge for sale.  Price is $80 plus $5.85 shipping (my cost was 
$98).  Offering it here before placing on Ebay.  Jim Robbins, N1JR 
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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...

[David C. Partridge]

I thought the Junghans Mega clock used DCF-77 rather than WWVB? 

Regards,
David Partridge
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of ewkeh...@aol.com
Sent: 13 June 2013 22:27
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...

I have four 15 year old Junghans Mega clocks through out the house. Ten days 
ago I noticed one of them dead. Battery, and by the look of the battery dead at 
least a month. I inserted a new battery and it did set. I did not watch  it but 
today I went with one of them through the house and all are exact within  a 
second. Even advance the second as close as I am able to observe. I am  
confident they synch daily.
Bert Kehren
 

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Re: [time-nuts] Achieving maximum performance when driving 5370A/B inputs

[David C. Partridge]

But YOU don't want to pay for those (OK if someone else is paying) - they
are painfully expensive. 

D.
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: 28 February 2010 03:00
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Achieving maximum performance when driving 5370A/B
inputs

Actually there are miniature twinax style connectors, for example:
http://www.amphenolrf.com/products/twinbnc.asp?N=0&sid=4B8860805409E17F&;


Bruce


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Re: [time-nuts] Achieving maximum performance when driving 5370A/Binputs

[David C. Partridge]

I have a collection of 6 Trompeter tri-axial (STP) adapters in a box which I
got mixed in with an auction lot.  If I'd had to buy them new they would
have cost over $600:

150 Series Sub-Miniature Tri-Axial Range
  3 off BN153 3-lug T-Adapters ($105 each) 
  2 off AD158 3-lug  female-female barrel connector ($61 each)
70 Series Miniature Tri-Axial Range (BNC sized) 
  1 off TN2A 3-lug Paralleling Jack - two jacks, one plug ($86 each) 

I don't forsee myself using them, so if anyone needs them - give me a shout.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: 01 March 2010 12:52
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Achieving maximum performance when driving
5370A/Binputs

Hi

That's been my experience in the past with unusual RF connectors. Unless
they went into large scale production you can't afford them.

Bob


On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:44 AM, David C. Partridge wrote:

> But YOU don't want to pay for those (OK if someone else is paying) - 
> they are painfully expensive.
> 
> D.
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] 
> On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
> Sent: 28 February 2010 03:00
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Achieving maximum performance when driving 
> 5370A/B inputs
> 
> Actually there are miniature twinax style connectors, for example:
> http://www.amphenolrf.com/products/twinbnc.asp?N=0&sid=4B8860805409E17
> F& 
> <http://www.amphenolrf.com/products/twinbnc.asp?N=0&sid=4B8860805409E1
> 7F&>
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
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> 


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Re: [time-nuts] nubie querie

[David C. Partridge]

You've not seen me on a bad day - I've been known to flip quite often! 

:-)

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David Forbes
Sent: 05 March 2010 16:20
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement; Tom Van Baak
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] nubie querie

At 10:25 AM -0800 3/4/10, Brooke Clarke wrote:
>Hi Tom:
>
>In the last slide you show a sand timer.  Do you have accuracy data for it?
>

Wouldn't that depend on the consistency with which the human flips the hour
glass? They don't flip themselves, you know.

-- 

--David Forbes, Tucson, AZ
http://www.cathodecorner.com/


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Re: [time-nuts] Thermal time constant

[David C. Partridge]

Most building insulation foam sold here in UK has an Alu foil cladding on
both sides ...

Dave


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Re: [time-nuts] Self-contained divider board/design available?

[David C. Partridge]

I'll send you my design offline as I don't have any boards left.

If  you want gerbers (four layer), let me know.

Dave 

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bert, VE2ZAZ
Sent: 12 March 2010 19:37
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Self-contained divider board/design available?

Hello Everyone,

I warn you, this is a topic that has been discussed before...

I enjoyed ko4bb's high level description of oscillator stability measurement
(http://www.ko4bb.com/Timing/FAQ-1.php). Now I am looking into getting or
putting together a self contained divider board that will allow me to make
T.I. measurements at the PPS rate from a 10MHz reference using a HP 5370A
counter. I am sure some of you have such boards. Are there any designs
documented anywhere? Are there PCBs available?

Otherwise, I have a tube full of 74AC163 sync. binary counters I believe
could do the job. Intent was to put a cascade of 8 of these on a board. What
recommendations would you give? I presume output re-timing is required with
these devices since the TC output may have glitches, right? Is a simple NPN
transistor in common-emitter configuration good enough to buffer and scale
the input signal, or should I go for a tuned input? 

When it comes to performance, I understand there is quite a broad range of
possible solutions, from the lousiest to the sharpest. My goal is to have a
resonably good board that can deal with GPS-grade accuracy/stability. I
don't intend to make atomic-level stability measurements (at least not for
now, but who knows in the future...). ADEV measurement on GPS receivers,
generators and oscillators is the objective.

As you can see, this brings you back to basics. This is where I will start
implementing T.I. measurements from...

Thanks in advance,

Bert.
ps. please also reply direct, as I subscribe to Time-Nuts in the digest
mode.



  __
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[time-nuts] Frequency divider board PCBs

[David C. Partridge]

I'm considering getting another batch of PCBs made up for the frequency
divider design I sold a number of the other year.

The basic target is low jitter, 10MHz sine in, square wave outputs at 10MHz,
5MHz, 1MHz, and one other output that is switchable from 100kHz down to 1Hz.

These are four layer boards, 5" by 3.5", and likely cost (based on a qty of
20) is about GBP20 each for the board with shipping extra.  Note that the
design uses mostly surface mount parts. 

I can't afford a speculative order as I'm not in work.  So I'm asking for
offline emails indicating "intent to purchase" to determine if this can fly.

Obviously if there's enough interest I can order a larger quantity of boards
which will bring the price down.

Schematic on request (uses 74AC and 74HC logic), not a micro, CPLD, or FPGA
in site.

The new boards will have revisions so that no EC wires will be necessary.

Regards,
David Partridge


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[time-nuts] Change of email address

[David C. Partridge]

I'm in the middle of switching email addresses.

 Old email: david.partri...@dsl.pipex.com
 New email: david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk

Mail to either address will get through, but the new email address is
preferred.  I'm still sending as the old email address for now, but will
change over soon.

My website (such as it is) is now www.perdrix.co.uk - more stuff will be
added RSN (honest).

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency divider board PCBs

[David C. Partridge]

I now have eight statements of intent - only a few more ...

Cheers
David Partridge

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: 13 March 2010 10:01
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement';
teksco...@yahoogroups.com; hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com;
testequiptra...@yahoogroups.com; tekscop...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency divider board PCBs

> I'm considering getting another batch of PCBs made up for the frequency
divider design I sold a number of the other year.



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Re: [time-nuts] Choke Ring Pictures

[David C. Partridge]

>definition of "pie"

3.1415926535 etc ? 

Ooops
D.


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency divider board PCBs

[David C. Partridge]

I now have statements of intent for 21 boards.  This will result in a unit
price of about GBP20 plus shipping.

If I can get the interest level up to close to 50 boards, the unit price
comes down to about GBP14.50.

Thanks to those who suggested other suppliers outside UK, but I'd prefer to
deal with a local agent even if the actual fab plant is in Guangzhou.

Cheers
Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: 14 March 2010 11:42
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency divider board PCBs

I now have eight statements of intent - only a few more ...

Cheers
David Partridge

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: 13 March 2010 10:01
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement';
teksco...@yahoogroups.com; hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com;
testequiptra...@yahoogroups.com; tekscop...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency divider board PCBs

> I'm considering getting another batch of PCBs made up for the 
> frequency
divider design I sold a number of the other year.



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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency divider board PCBs

[David C. Partridge]

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: 16 March 2010 16:12
To: david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency divider board PCBs

I now have statements of intent for 21 boards.  This will result in a unit
price of about GBP20 plus shipping.

If I can get the interest level up to close to 50 boards, the unit price
comes down to about GBP14.50.

Thanks to those who suggested other suppliers outside UK, but I'd prefer to
deal with a local agent even if the actual fab plant is in Guangzhou.

Cheers
Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: 14 March 2010 11:42
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency divider board PCBs

I now have eight statements of intent - only a few more ...

Cheers
David Partridge

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: 13 March 2010 10:01
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement';
teksco...@yahoogroups.com; hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com;
testequiptra...@yahoogroups.com; tekscop...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency divider board PCBs

> I'm considering getting another batch of PCBs made up for the 
> frequency
divider design I sold a number of the other year.



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[time-nuts] Frequency divider PCB: Current status on "pre-orders", and pointers to documentation.

[David C. Partridge]

The current situation is that I have almost enough statements of intent to
get to the magic 50 which will allow a price of GBP14.50 per board plus
delivery.   For the avoidance of doubt, this is the price for a bare PCB,
not for a kit, and definitely not for a made up board.

I intend to "keep the book open" until 18:00 Zulu (UTC or GMT) on Sunday
21st March, I will then count up what I have and order that many boards (and
maybe a few over to get a nice round number).

I've received numerous reqeusts for the design documentation, schematic, and
a bill of materials

They can all be downloaded from my website, but there's no way (yet) to
navigate to them (a round tuit problem).

Write up:



Schematic:

 

and BOM:



The schematic and write up have both been updated today, and the BOM is new
today.

For those who worry about SMT soldering, you don't need a reflow oven, it
can all be done with tweezers, a small tipped iron, fine solder wire, and
liquid flux (or a flux pen).  A good pair of strong reading glasses helps
too!   See:



I've also had questions on part pricing:  Back in 2008, the cost to populate
one PCB using a MAX999, thick film resistors, and standard (X7R) chip
capacitors was about GBP28 including Molex headers and SMB sockets.   I
don't expect it to be massively different now.   I'm afraid I don't have
full parts kits, and the necessary up front costs to do so is more than my
finances allow at present.

FWIW, the ADCMP600 is a bit pricier than the MAX999, and is supposed to be
"better", though I'm not sure in what respects it is better.

If you want the lowest possible level of phase noise, you would follow the
bill of materials recommendations and use thin film resistors and C0G
capacitors in the clock shaper part of the circuit at the very least, but
this adds considerably to the cost (for example 100nF C0G 1206 capacitors
are about 1 pound each, while an X7R part is only a few pence).

Regards,
David Partridge


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency divider PCB: Current status on "pre-orders", and pointers to documentation.

[David C. Partridge]

 Bill,

Order request added.  Docs you download from the website as per my post  ...


Apologies for cluttering the list with this reply, but I got a
"550-'Blocked'" replying to Bill's email address directly.

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: Bill Mason [mailto:pha...@wcc.net] 
Sent: 17 March 2010 19:42
To: david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Frequency divider PCB: Current status on
"pre-orders",and pointers to documentation.

David:

Please put me on the list for two each of the divider boards plus
documentation, etc

Thanks:

Bill Mason
W5STP
cnt...@wcc.net
mason...@wcc.net


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency divider PCB: Current status on "pre-orders", and pointers to documentation.

[David C. Partridge]

I've just had in interesting offline chat with Warren S. 

Basic outline is that this divider is plenty good enough to use with e.g. a
TBolt (which was my design target), and probably also for the less than
totally committed time nuts.

To quote him:

"What I'm saying is does not meet the Nut cases description of a low noise
buffer / divider."
For good performance, do make absolutely certain that the power supply for
this board isn't fed from the same PSU as your Rb or GPSDO, or if it is,
make sure you take the regulated 12V from that supply and feed this board
through another stage of cleanup using a 5V linear regulator and decoupling
caps right close to the power input connector.   Linear supply rather than
switched (I admit that mine is switched, then post regulated).  Star
grounding of course.   

But for the ultimate time nuttery level of low jitter (low pS level), the
following changes would NEED to be made.

1) Transformer coupled input clock shaper with multi-stage filtering to
restrict input fed to comparator to only the intended single input frequency
(10MHz).

2) Change the power supply to the board to be (say) 12V or 9V.  Then use
several 5V on board regulators to feed:

 a) the clock shaper
 b) the main '163 divider
 c) the 4017 divider chain
 d) each 74AC541 output driver and related FFs.

Did I get that right Warren?

This ensures that if e.g. the switched output is set for 1Hz, that the 5V
supply for the other parts of the board doesn't twitch in sympathy when the
'541 switches.

3) Maybe use BIG earth bond terminal and feed +ve supply in on single
header.

Warren, please jump in to add further points

Warren is of the view that using COGs and thin film resistors isn't
necessary except possibly to use thin film parts for R4 & R5

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: 17 March 2010 18:28
To: teksco...@yahoogroups.com; tekscop...@yahoogroups.com;
hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com; testequiptra...@yahoogroups.com;
'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency divider PCB: Current status on
"pre-orders",and pointers to documentation.

The current situation is that I have almost enough statements of intent to
get to the magic 50 which will allow a price of GBP14.50 per board plus
delivery.   For the avoidance of doubt, this is the price for a bare PCB,
not for a kit, and definitely not for a made up board.

I intend to "keep the book open" until 18:00 Zulu (UTC or GMT) on Sunday
21st March, I will then count up what I have and order that many boards (and
maybe a few over to get a nice round number).

I've received numerous reqeusts for the design documentation, schematic, and
a bill of materials

They can all be downloaded from my website, but there's no way (yet) to
navigate to them (a round tuit problem).

Write up:

<http://www.perdrix.co.uk/FrequencyDivider/Frequency%20Divider%202.pdf>

Schematic:

<http://www.perdrix.co.uk/FrequencyDivider/Frequency%20Divider%202%20Schemat
ic.pdf> 

and BOM:

<http://www.perdrix.co.uk/FrequencyDivider/Frequency%20Divider%202%20Bill%20
of%20Materials.pdf>

The schematic and write up have both been updated today, and the BOM is new
today.

For those who worry about SMT soldering, you don't need a reflow oven, it
can all be done with tweezers, a small tipped iron, fine solder wire, and
liquid flux (or a flux pen).  A good pair of strong reading glasses helps
too!   See:

<http://www.curiousinventor.com/guides/Surface_Mount_Soldering/101>

I've also had questions on part pricing:  Back in 2008, the cost to populate
one PCB using a MAX999, thick film resistors, and standard (X7R) chip
capacitors was about GBP28 including Molex headers and SMB sockets.   I
don't expect it to be massively different now.   I'm afraid I don't have
full parts kits, and the necessary up front costs to do so is more than my
finances allow at present.

FWIW, the ADCMP600 is a bit pricier than the MAX999, and is supposed to be
"better", though I'm not sure in what respects it is better.

If you want the lowest possible level of phase noise, you would follow the
bill of materials recommendations and use thin film resistors and C0G
capacitors in the clock shaper part of the circuit at the very least, but
this adds considerably to the cost (for example 100nF C0G 1206 capacitors
are about 1 pound each, while an X7R part is only a few pence).

Regards,
David Partridge


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency divider PCB: Current status on"pre-orders", and pointers to documentation.

[David C. Partridge]

Ooops I did mean to say R4 and R7 - the 2K divider pair.

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: 18 March 2010 12:41
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency divider PCB: Current status
on"pre-orders", and pointers to documentation.


> except possibly to use thin film parts for R4 & R5


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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic and BOM

[David C. Partridge]

Bill,

just re-join the end of the names that have been split to the next line of the 
post. 

Again sent to the list 'cos your ISP still refuses email from me.

Apologies to the list 

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: mason...@wcc.net [mailto:mason...@wcc.net] 
Sent: 18 March 2010 20:21
To: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com; 'David C. Partridge'
Subject: Schematic and BOM

David:

 

Neither the Schematic nor BOM would download..the Write Up, however did.

 

Bill Mason

W5STP



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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic and BOM

[David C. Partridge]

Tom, 

I designed the original version of the board in 2008.   I think the TADD2 came 
along a few months after I did the first
batch of boards.

If I remember correctly, John Ackermann expressed some interest at the time, 
but never followed up after I sent the
design docs to him.  Possibly because my board wasn't the right size to fit the 
TAPR enclosures, or because he had
already started down the PIC route.

I just visited the TAPR site and had a read of the manual and a good look at 
the schematic.  

Here are my comments for whatever they're worth:

I'm not sure why, but I can't quite see how you can do precision timing using a 
micro (or for that matter a PLD).   I
feel that there's just too much silicon there to be predictable at sub 
nano-second levels.   I will however admit that
this is just prejudice, as I've never tried it and my concerns may be totally 
unfounded.

The TADD2 may have better LF rejection in the input stage as it's using a 
transformer input, rather than a capacitively
coupled input.

The TADD2 doesn't provide 5MHz and 1MHz outputs (assuming 10MHz input).

The duty cycle of the TADD2 outputs isn't 50%.  I can't remember why I made the 
decision, but I set a design goal for my
divider that all outputs would have a 50% duty cycle (i.e. square wave rather 
than pulse).

The TADD2 suffers from noticeable crosstalk.  I believe that my design avoids 
that to a very large degree (at the
expense of having unused gates).

The TADD2 has quite few more outputs than my design.

My design does NOT allow the outputs to be synchronised to a PPS input, whereas 
the TADD2 does.   I don't think it would
be hard to add to my design, but I've never really thought about it.

I know that the outputs on my design are short-circuit proof.  I assume the 
TADD2 is too?

As far as I can determine, the outputs of the TADD2 are not re-clocked to the 
input clock, and therefore are probably
more likely to suffer from jitter.  OTOH I don't have the equipment to measure 
the jitter on my design, so can't state
how clean or otherwise it ACTUALLY is.

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Tom Van Baak
Sent: 19 March 2010 21:33
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Schematic and BOM

David,

Did you see the TAPR TADD board(s) before you started your divider project? I'm 
curious what features (or missing
features) led you to your board design.

Thanks,
/tvb


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[time-nuts] Pre-orders for Frequency Divider PCB are now closed.

[David C. Partridge]

Subejct says all.  I will ordering the boards in the next few days.  In the 
meantime I've replaced the 47uF tantalum on
the supply decoupling with FOUR 6,800uF 10V aluminium electrolytics (Panasonic 
FK Series EEUFK1A682, ESR 0.019 ohms).  

That should keep the supply nicely decoupled for when the variable output is 
set for 100kHz, 10kHz, and maybe even for
1kHz. :-)

I will also be investigating the cost of getting the boards professionally 
assembled with all the SMT parts plus the
above capacitors (add your own headers and SMA/SMB connectors at choice).  This 
MAY be a cheaper option for everyone
than buying in the parts individually and doing your own soldering.

I've ordered a few boards over and above the number pre-ordered, but will deal 
with the excess after the pre-ordered
boards have been shipped (either assembled or bare depending on the results of 
the above enquiries).

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk


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[time-nuts] Frequency Divider 2: FAO Bill Mason and John Pinkham

[David C. Partridge]

Dear Bill Mason and John Pinkam

I am unable to communicate to the email addresses pha...@wcc.net and 
jepink...@usa.net.  Your respective mail servers
always refuse my emails.

Please can you get this sorted, otherwise I will be unable to contact you about 
the PCBs you both want.

My apologies to the various lists, but this appears the only way to contact 
these two people.

I have notified senderscore.org to tell it that my ISP's mail server 
(212.74.114.1) shouldn't be blacklisted, but I'm
not optimistic ...

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency Divider 2: FAO Bill Mason and John Pinkham

[David C. Partridge]

The following message to  was undeliverable.
The reason for the problem:
5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'Blocked' 

So it is still blocking my mails.#

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of mason...@wcc.net
Sent: 23 March 2010 20:49
To: david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency Divider 2: FAO Bill Mason and John Pinkham

David:

I have had and email lockdown (I hate Microsoft) for the last weekit should 
at this time have been resolved since I
am now getting email.  If you have trouble, TRY mason...@wcc.net, if this 
doesn't work, then try cnt...@wcc.net.  There
are others but these should be more than enough.
BTW, I am still having trouble downloading the schematic.  However, the movie 
describing the handling of SM devices is
quite informative and you have my thanks for the info.

Bill Mason
W5STP

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of David C. Partridge
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:03 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'; 
teksco...@yahoogroups.com; tekscop...@yahoogroups.com;
hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com; testequiptra...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency Divider 2: FAO Bill Mason and John Pinkham

Dear Bill Mason and John Pinkam

I am unable to communicate to the email addresses pha...@wcc.net and 
jepink...@usa.net.  Your respective mail servers
always refuse my emails.

Please can you get this sorted, otherwise I will be unable to contact you about 
the PCBs you both want.

My apologies to the various lists, but this appears the only way to contact 
these two people.

I have notified senderscore.org to tell it that my ISP's mail server
(212.74.114.1) shouldn't be blacklisted, but I'm not optimistic ...

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk


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Re: [time-nuts] Low-Cost 6+ GHz Prescaler board for HP/Agilent 53181A/53131A/53132A

[David C. Partridge]

I just looked into getting some assembly houses to price  for supply and fit of 
just the SMD parts of my frequency
divider design.  The first one came in this afternoon, and was so huge I almost 
had a heart attack!   Over GBP50 per
board.

Regards,
David Partridge
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Pete Lancashire
Sent: 25 March 2010 16:10
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low-Cost 6+ GHz Prescaler board for HP/Agilent 
53181A/53131A/53132A

>One consideration is having a assembly house just do the SMDs, Rs, Cs, and the 
>ICs. The rest can be done by hand.


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Re: [time-nuts] FW: Re: Low-Cost 6+ GHz Prescaler board for

[David C. Partridge]

3.5mm 

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Samuel DEMEULEMEESTER
Sent: 25 March 2010 21:02
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: Re: Low-Cost 6+ GHz Prescaler board for

BNC is definitely not an option. My "standard" connector for this project is a 
TNC connector. It's rated to 8 GHz and
many adapter are available for cheap. The N connector might be an option (I can 
propose the PCB with a
Type-N) but as you said, it will require another front panel. Keep in mind that 
Agilent is selling this front panel for
$199 ! I think this doesn't worth that price.


-Message d'origine-
De : time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] De la part 
de Rich Stolte Envoyé : jeudi 25 mars
2010 21:12 À : time-nuts@febo.com Objet : [time-nuts] FW: Re: Low-Cost 6+ GHz 
Prescaler board for

N connector would be preferable if space would accomidate the cutout being 
drilled to a larger size.  If not, the front
panel from the 5 GHZ /12 GHz counter is available from Agilent.  They did not 
use a BNC connector past 3
GHz and I don't think you want to either.   As far as the specification
tradeoffs, I think you should try to mirror Agilent's specs as closely as 
possible for their 5 GHz opton

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&nid=-536902438
.536907575&pageMode=OV  Anything that does not meet Agilent's spec will cause 
calibration problems for anyone who wants
to send it off to a commercial calibration lab unless they are given very 
specific instructions which might be hard to
do years in the future when the specs to your board have been forgotten and 
mislaid.
 
Pricing would depend on a few factors, not the least of which would be your 
fixed cost, and how much work / cost are
involved in making the front panel connector work.  I would say a range from 
$250 each to $1000 each wouldn't be
unreasonable.  If you hit the low end of that range, I would be interested in 
talking about buying a quantity of them
from you to resell.
At the high end of that range, you can probably find a few buyers if you
work hard at marketing, but definitely count me out.   
 
Right now, it is also hard to find option 010 oven timebase for these counters. 
 I wonder if you or someone else on this
list has any insight about the possibility of retrofitting one of the older 
ubiquitous oven oscillators, or possibly
even an lpro?  
 
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna splitters

[David C. Partridge]

Now you couldn't possibly be referring to Bruce Griffiths could you? :-) 

Cheers
Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Tom Holmes, N8ZM
Sent: 26 March 2010 21:12
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'; p...@b737.co.uk
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna splitters

Ashley...


Regardless of how you ask your questions here, you can count on a complicated 
answer :-). 


Sorry guys, I couldn't resist.

Regards,

Tom Holmes, N8ZM
Tipp City, OH
EM79xx

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of ashle...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 4:41 PM
To: p...@b737.co.uk; time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna splitters



Thank you !

Ashley


 
 
Thank You
Kiss-Electronics
Ms Ashley Hall
183 N 5th Avenue
Cornelius, Oregon
97113
 
 
W7DUZ
 
 
www.kiss-electronics.com



-Original Message-
From: Gerard PG5G 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Sent: Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna splitters


for a company called keep it simple you have a complicated way of asking 
questions 
 
ashle...@aol.com wrote: 
> Hi Everyone 
> After a lot of learning, sweating (yes, girls do sweat), hand 
> wringing,
and a LOT of emails and great help , we have two of Mr Miller (G3RUH) GPSDO 
units up and working fine. Disciplined 10mhz
all over the place. > 
> Now what we need is a GPS antenna splitter. S, we're
looking for links, do-it-yourself articles, hints from you guys who have built 
them.. Ebay is really barren for
these things, only one or two listed, but I thought we would try Time Nuts 
first and see ... 
> > Thank you everyone for all of your help with this GPSDO project !! >
> Ashley
> 
> 
> 
> > > Thank You
> Kiss-Electronics
> Ms Ashley Hall
> 183 N 5th Avenue
> Cornelius, Oregon
> 97113
> > > W7DUZ
> > > www.kiss-electronics.com
> ___
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> and follow the instructions there. 
> 
>  
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Re: [time-nuts] Low cost 6+ GHz Prescaler

[David C. Partridge]

What sort of inductance?  For a 68nH part in 0603 size I struggled to find one 
with an SRF of 2700MHz, let alone above
8GHz.

Regards,
David Partridge

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Samuel DEMEULEMEESTER
Sent: 27 March 2010 11:57
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low cost 6+ GHz Prescaler

Some updates.

I finally decided to add some features in order to use the board as a "generic" 
prescaler. First, I will include a
standard SMA footprint in the output stage and a way to power the board 
externally. Then I will change the original PIC
UP for a better one, with more memory, and add a 4-way selectable ratio feature 
by onboard solder jumper. The board will
be able to act as a /100, /128, /512, /1000 generic prescaler. I wonder about 
the needs for /256 and /500 options. If
someone have some interest for those ratios, let me know. Finally, the PCB size 
will be approx. 100 x 50 mm. I know it
could be smaller, but I have to do with the counter's mounting holes.

PS : I'm looking for a source for RF chokes (MMIC Power stage) useable from DC 
to 8+ GHz. 

-Message d'origine-
De : time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] De la part 
de Grant Hodgson Envoyé : vendredi 26
mars 2010 20:10 À : time-nuts@febo.com Objet : Re: [time-nuts] Low cost 6+ GHz 
Prescaler

I've used the RFMD NBB300/310 and they are excellent up to 14GHz.

The NLB300 and NLB310 are in plastic packages and are somewhat cheaper than the 
NBBs, but have similar gain
characteristics.  They don't do strange things when compressed; I've driven 
them right up to the abs. 
max i/p power level and they survive, and I don't see any evidence of harmonic 
problems when driving a Hittite HMC364 /2
prescaler.

They do exactly what it says on the datasheet.

regards

Grant Hodgson


> 
> RFMD seems to produce some nice MMIC, for example the NBB-300 
> (http://www.rfmd.com/CS/Documents/Nbb-300.pdf), but I never used a 
> RFMD amplifier. I used Agilent/Avago MMIC since years with great 
> results, but always with frequencies no more than 3 GHz.
> 
> Anyone have some experience with DC-8/12 GHz MMIC and which's the best ?
> 
>

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[time-nuts] Bill Mason

[David C. Partridge]

Message for Bill Mason.

Apologies yet again for using list bandwidth on this.

I have now tried all your email addresses on several oaccasions.

I have sent your ISP technical support the following through their web support 
page:

Your mail servers are rejecting all mail I try to send Bill Mason who gave me 
three email addresses to try:

Reporting-MTA: dns; mk-outboundfilter-2.mail.uk.tiscali.com

Final-Recipient: rfc822;pha...@wcc.net
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure)
Remote-MTA: dns; [69.7.80.53]
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'Blocked' (delivery 
attempts: 2)

I get the same errors for mason...@wcc.net and cnt...@wcc.net

Tiscali is a major ISP in the UK, so please can you unblock my emails.

Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk


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Re: [time-nuts] GPS SVN-49 and some GLONASS news

[David C. Partridge]

Buyer collects - sold as-is, where is :-) 


Regards,
David Partridge
Email:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Bob Camp
Sent: 01 April 2010 17:28
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS SVN-49 and some GLONASS news

Hi

Auction it off on eBay?

Bob

On Apr 1, 2010, at 12:19 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

> Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> The "bring it back to the shop for a quick repair" option seems to be 
>> missing from their list of proposed fixes 
> That goes for most of the birds, 


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Re: [time-nuts] And you thought you were old

[David C. Partridge]

I think I still have a few OC71 xistors

Dave Partridge


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[time-nuts] OT: For the attention of Bill Mason

[David C. Partridge]

mail for pha...@wcc.net from me is STILL being blocked.

David Partridge


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Re: [time-nuts] EZGPIB writing to a file - disk thrashing

[David C. Partridge]

1) In the scale of things 1 write/second is not thrashing.  100/sec might be 
classified that way.

2) The C run-time with buffer the data anyway.

So don't worry.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Jerome Peters
Sent: 17 May 2010 07:51
To: 'time-nuts@febo.com'
Subject: [time-nuts] EZGPIB writing to a file - disk thrashing

When using the Prologic USB-to-GPIB adapter and the EZGPIB (Ulrich Bangert) 
software to log results of HP5334A to a file
- do you worry about thrashing your hard drive?
If for example you are taking one measurement per second, then does it make 
sense to try to queue-up 60+ measurements
before writing to a file?
Or does the software/OS (Win7 in my case) take care of that?

Thanks/Regards,
Jerome


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Re: [time-nuts] Comments on Tbolt deal - Fluke.L

[David C. Partridge]

Did you send the failed Tbolt back to tvb?  ISTR that he expressed an interest 
in getting failed TAPR units back so that
he could investigate why they failed.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Mike Naruta AA8K
Sent: 05 June 2010 15:36
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Comments on Tbolt deal - Fluke.L

> to replace the TAPR Thunderbolt I have that fails.


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Re: [time-nuts] Best OCXOs, phasenoise wise.

[David C. Partridge]

And the price will make your eyes water!! 

Dave P.


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of John Miles
Sent: 28 June 2010 15:33
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Best OCXOs, phasenoise wise.

Wenzel ULN-grade parts and Valpey-Fisher's VFOV110 line come to mind.
There's also a vendor in the UK whose name escapes me who has been advertising 
ULN-class OCXOs lately (I think someone from there is actually on the list.)

The term "ultra low noise" is common in the XO business, but only a few vendors 
are serious about competing in that sector.

-- john, KE5FX

> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
> Behalf Of Luis Cupido
> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:02 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: [time-nuts] Best OCXOs, phasenoise wise.
>
>
> I'm quite sure someone has went down this road...
> so I better ask first.
>
> Phase noise wise what would be the best OCXO's that we could find 
> around, taken from equipments, or ebay etc.
> I have in mind essentially the HP ones. the PIEZZO ISOTEMP, CMAK, 
> Vecton(harder to find) and some of the small wenzels, BLIBEY, OACs and 
> a few more.
>
> Not necessarily just 10MHz... other freqs are of interest too.
>
> Any generic heading info/help?
> Many Thanks.
>
>
> Luis Cupido.
> ct1dmk.
>
>
>
>


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Re: [time-nuts] Long period variation of GPS PPS timing?

[David C. Partridge]

Sawtooth variation in pps time - that does sound a bit familiar in reference to 
GPS timing.

e.g.:   but that's over a 
MUCH shorter time scale than you report which seems to a around 3000 seconds.

So I wouldn't write it off as being unrelated to the GPS quite yet, but I admit 
I can't think of an obvious candidate with this sort of period.

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Paul Nicholson
Sent: 01 July 2010 19:44
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Long period variation of GPS PPS timing?

FYI, some time has elapsed with one soundcard instead of two and the slow cycle 
is still present, same period, and the phase of the slow cycle did not make a 
step change.

Now I must take a careful look at how the centroid is being determined, the 
resampling, RC temperature, etc.
Maybe the 'sawtoothness' of the cycle should be telling me something.  If 
nothing jumps out at me, I'll change the rise/fall time constants of the RC 
network and see if that alters the slow cycle.
--
Paul Nicholson
http://abelian.org
--

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Re: [time-nuts] Long period variation of GPS PPS timing?

[David C. Partridge]

Is this a timing GPS receiver, or a generic fast start navigation receiver?  25 
seconds to start from power on sounds rather short for a timing receiver. 

The T-bolt start up from cold takes about 15 minutes for the crystal oven to 
warm, then the self survey is run which by default is 2000 samples (just over 
33 minutes). 

Once the survey is complete, the position is stored and the receiver runs in 
"over-determined" clock mode.   I can't remember the "warm start" time but 25 
seconds sounds on the short side.

Refer back to Mark Sims tests on the benefits of taking a 48 hour self survey 
to get a more accurate position (ISTR there was a cyclic error associated with 
an incorrect position).

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Paul Nicholson
Sent: 02 July 2010 09:05
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Long period variation of GPS PPS timing?

This morning I waited for the VLF timing signals to settle into their steady 
daytime phase - still showing the slow cycle of phase variation.

Then I power-cycled the GPS, leaving everything else running.

During the 25 seconds it takes the GPS to begin sending PPS again, my software 
continues to time the VLF signal using the average PPS pulse interval measured 
over the previous 100 or so seconds.

See the phase plot of DCF 77.5kHz for the result,

  http://abelian.org/vlf/live/pp100702dcfa.png

GPS rebooted at 16686 seconds, just after the slow cycle started its upward 
ramp.  It seems to have caused a phase jump in the slow cycle - it switched to 
starting a downward ramp.

To confirm, I rebooted the GPS again at 24915 seconds, as it was about half way 
down a downward ramp.  Again a step change of phase, this time it restarted at 
the bottom of an upward ramp.

Just to eliminate any effect in my software, I unplugged the PPS signal from 
the soundcard for 30 seconds, leaving the GPS
running.   My software is starved of PPS for the same length
of time as during the GPS reboots.   This occurred at 27440
seconds, halfway along a downward ramp.  The ramp continued down.

Just to 'shake the bag' of temperature effects, I opened the door of the 
cabinet containing the PCs and electronics, this quickly dropped the 
temperature by 10 C.  Also took out the unit containing the RC pulse forming, 
took its lid off and left it in the open air.  Result: no noticeable change to 
the slow cycle.

Well now, this sure looks to me like a GPS effect.
I think I'd better order another GPS, a different type, maybe a GlobalSat 
MR-350P, or something, for comparison.
Recommendations?

Will also try to move the GPS16 so that it can see more of the sky - only about 
50% visible at the moment, some trees block the other half.

--
Paul Nicholson
http://abelian.org
--

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Re: [time-nuts] rapid startup GPSDO

[David C. Partridge]

After a forced cold start in an unknown location, the TB will still be 
searching for satellites after five minutes.

If you move it and don't clear the incorrect location, I don't know how long it 
will take to realise it is wrong (if it ever does).

Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of jimlux
Sent: 14 July 2010 14:43
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] rapid startup GPSDO

Is there some (inexpensive) GPSDO that has a "time from power on in an unknown 
location to reasonably stable" in the <5 minute category?

Frequency accuracy in the 1E-9 range would be fine.

A regular old GPS has a Time to First Fix well under that, and it should be 
cranking out 1pps pulses with 1E-7 or 1E-8  precision pretty quickly.. Would it 
be fair to say that after 100 seconds, one could theoretically have driven that 
down another factor of 10?

As I understand it, a thunderbolt needs some number of hours after turn on to 
stabilize, but just how bad is it after, say, 5 minutes.

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Re: [time-nuts] Datum TS-2100 Rubidium

[David C. Partridge]

>but the LPRO isn't designed (well, according to the spec) for GND != -VE

So long as you don't introduce it to real ground (i.e. isolate it), it won't 
know that the -12V is floating below world ground :-)

Dave


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[time-nuts] Frequency Divider Board Status

[David C. Partridge]

An udpate for everyone,

I am STILL waiting for Stackpole Electronics thin film resistors which I 
ordered through Digikey.

I have kicked Stackpole, but current delivery date promised is mid August.

Regards,
David Partridge



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Re: [time-nuts] Datum TS-2100 Rubidium

[David C. Partridge]

In which case if the lpro needs +24, then use a buck-boost 12-24V DC-DC 
converter.

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Rob Kimberley
Sent: 21 July 2010 16:08
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Datum TS-2100 Rubidium

Ground is chassis ground as far as I remember, and the LPRO was bolted straight 
on the chassis.

RobK

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: 21 July 2010 10:52 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Datum TS-2100 Rubidium

On 07/21/2010 10:11 AM, David C. Partridge wrote:
>> but the LPRO isn't designed (well, according to the spec) for GND != 
>> -VE
>
> So long as you don't introduce it to real ground (i.e. isolate it), it 
> won't know that the -12V is floating below world ground :-)

Doable, but surely chassi ground of the LPRO is also tied to electrical ground? 
Last time I looked around, it sure looked like things where tied to chassi too.

If so you need to electrically isolate the whole LPRO. The 10 MHz is easy 
enough with a transformer. The control signals would not be too hard.

Another solution is to let the -12 V lead also be chassi... which works but is 
prone to errors...

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Reference source 1E10^8 only ...Ideas

[David C. Partridge]

Don,

Go to fluke.l (that's a lower case l at the end) seller on eBay, and buy a 
Thunderbolt GPS controlled oscillator.  You should have fully adequate 
satellite coverage at 45 or 50 degrees South

PS Once I get the parts through I'll have a divider board available.

Cheers
Dave


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Don Collie jnr
Sent: 24 July 2010 13:33
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Reference source 1E10^8 only ...Ideas

I need a frequency reference for my frequency counters, it needs to be accurate 
to at least +or- 1 part in 10,000,000. 
!0MHz would be OK, but also 5, or 1. Due to technical "improvements", the 
4.43361875 MHz colour subcarrier which is available on the analogue TV system 
here in New Zealand, is no longer referenced to a Rubidium standard, and can be 
about +,- 1Hz in error. I have a communications receiver, and have been 
thinking of using this with Lyssajous figures on an oscilloscope, with the 
receiver tuned to WWVH in Hawaii, but a GPS might be a possability, if there is 
satellite coverage here in Invercargill, southern NZ. Bearing in mind I don`t 
need extreme accuracy, what is my best option, 
please?.Don.
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Re: [time-nuts] Basic question regarding comparing two frequencies

[David C. Partridge]

Jim,

It might appear on the 2nd user market sooner, but the odds are you won't be 
able to either repair it or calibrate it as the manufacturer will have been the 
only supplier of either of these services, and no service manuals will exist.

If it is still in support, the mfr will calibrate/fix it for you if your 
pockets are deep enough (probably as much or more than you pay for it).  If (as 
is likely), it is out of support, then it will only be good for re-cycling or 
land-fill :-(

H does anyone but us old fogies see anything wrong with a business model 
where stuff can't be fixed and has a support lifetime of 5 years or so ?

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of jimlux
Sent: 25 July 2010 14:16
To: j...@quik.com
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Basic question regarding comparing two frequencies

J. Forster wrote:
> Probably yes.
> 
> There are also a number of lower cost instruments (just above consumer 
> grade)like HF-VHF VNAs that implement much of the smarts in a PC on 
> the market.
> 
> As to high end instruments w/ USB or Ethernet, I'm not so sure. The 
> USA is doing less and less hardware development, so instruments are 
> not being bought in anything like the quantity as in the past.
> 
A lot of the new Agilent and Tek gear (at all price points) seem to have 
Ethernet, especially if it has a LCD front panel. (there's that LXI 
interface thing, too)   Even power supplies.  Not much USB (at least for 
control.. these days, using a USB stick for data transfer seems ubiquitous.. 
they've replaced the floppy drive on scopes, etc.), except for RF power 
meters.. There's a whole raft of power meter heads that are USB, which makes 
sense.. the "hard part" is in the actual sensor, not in the meter which 
displays the power reading.

Mind you, because they do this by using single board PCs instead of the 
dedicated instrument controller inside, they're subject to all the ills of PCs 
(e.g. expectation of patch cycles, etc.)

It also seems that there's a more rapid turnover of equipment these days 
(probably because accounting rules allow 3 or 5 year depreciation) and so the 
idea of a place hanging onto a signal generator for 20 years is less common.  
So that newer gear will show up used sooner (I hope!)


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5335A and HP-IB (GP-IB)

[David C. Partridge]

At long last, an outbreak of sanity in an insane world.

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: 02 August 2010 09:40
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5335A and HP-IB (GP-IB)
Pretty fast after the Bilski ruling, the patent appeals board took a HP 
software patent which was in front of them on "prior arts"
grounds, turned it around send it back down with "according to SCOTUS this 
stuff cannot be patented in the first place".

(http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/proudler.pdf)



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Re: [time-nuts] Better GPS

[David C. Partridge]

I thought it had broken off (San Andreas Fault) ...

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Bill Hawkins
Sent: 27 August 2010 20:59
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Better GPS

You'd think that something at the edge of a continent that moved up and down 
that much every month would break off.

...

Bill Hawkins 


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[time-nuts] Maintenance manual for Racal 1998 and 1999 universal counter timers

[David C. Partridge]

I'm looking for this - has any one found a copy in the wild?

Thanks,
David Partridge



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Re: [time-nuts] Maintenance manual for Racal 1998 and 1999 universal counter timers

[David C. Partridge]

That is only the user manual I fear

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Charles P. Steinmetz
Sent: 06 September 2010 04:58
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintenance manual for Racal 1998 and 1999 universal 
counter timers

David wrote:

>I'm looking for this - has any one found a copy in the wild?

This site purports to have it:

http://www.mods.dk/manual.php?brand=racal



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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone have a comparison of the Z3805A and a Tbolt?

[David C. Partridge]

I'm having a problem with a sentence that contains "bad" and 10811 in 
proximity.  It sounds like an oxymoron.

Please could someone elaborate on why a 10811 OCXO in a 3805 is bad?

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Bob Camp
Sent: 07 September 2010 12:35
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Anyone have a comparison of the Z3805A and a Tbolt?

Hi

The "bad units" with the 10811's in them are usually marked "HP". The "good 
units" with the true DOCXO in them are normally marked "Symmetricom".

Bob

--
From: "Pete Lancashire" 
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:14 PM
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Anyone have a comparison of the Z3805A and a Tbolt?

> Is there an external way on the 3805's to id the desired 10811 ? S/N or ?
> Ditto on the 10811's
>
> -pete
>
> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> I have a couple 3805's and more than a couple TBolts.
>>
>> There are two 3805's, one has the double heated 10811 the other has a 
>> true double oven. The true double oven / later design is the one you 
>> want.
>> Typically they have better TC and better ADEV at 10 seconds compared 
>> to the earlier part.
>>
>> The TBolt has a much better GPS receiver in it and it is far more 
>> tweak able with the Lady Heather software. It's default settings are 
>> not as good as the defaults on the 3805. With some work they can be 
>> vastly improved.
>>
>> The 3805 runs on a single 24 or 48 volt supply depending on the model 
>> you get. The TBolt needs +12, +5 and -12. Battery backup is easier on 
>> the 3805.
>>
>> TBolts run $75 +/- 25. 3805's run $250 +/- $50. Shipping will be a 
>> bit more on the 3805.
>>
>> The TBolt wins in bang for the buck and fun to tweak categories. The 
>> 3805 is the better plug it in and ignore it forever box.
>>
>> Both will track a cesium well at 100,000 seconds and beyond. Both 
>> look a lot like GPS at 100 seconds or so. Both have some significant 
>> variation unit to unit.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2010, at 11:13 AM, swingbyte  wrote:
>>
>> > Hi All,
>> > Have been thinking of getting a GPSODO and I'm looking for advice 
>> > on what
>> to choose.  I haven't been able to find an ADEV comparison between 
>> these two units and am curious to know how their differences manifest 
>> themselves.
>>  Apart from the 12 satelites vs 8 what practical advantages are there 
>> in the 3805A over the Tbolt?  With all the extra components there has 
>> to be something.  I notice that the ocxo is not the large Docxo of 
>> the 3801A - which is better?
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Tim
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >
>>
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>>
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> 


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[time-nuts] Possibly OT: Maintenance manual for Racal 1998 and 1999 now available for download

[David C. Partridge]

I just received an email from EADS (used to be Racal Instruments):


Dear David,
The 1998/9 Maintenance Manual has now been scanned and is available for 
download from our web-site.  Please use the link below to access the downloads 
page.
 



Many thanks are due from all of us to the folks at EADS who made this happen.  
They know who they are!

Regards,
David Partridge



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Re: [time-nuts] Possibly OT: Maintenance manual for Racal 1998 and1999 now available for download

[David C. Partridge]

Quoting from their website home page:

>EADS Test & Services (UK) Limited is located near the south coast at Ferndown 
>in Dorset and was formed following the acquisition of the Racal Instruments 
>Group of companies

The do some interesting "stuff" for time nuts too!



Though your pockets may not be deep enough ... 

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Bill Hawkins
Sent: 09 September 2010 08:24
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Possibly OT: Maintenance manual for Racal 1998 and1999 
now available for download

Many, many, many thanks for your research, David. Who is EADS?



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Re: [time-nuts] Timing Distribution in Mountainous Terrain

[David C. Partridge]

Jim is it possible you just gave a workable solution: Equip each site with a 
small radio telescope and watch pulsars. 

Aren't pulsars a reliable accurate time source or do they not provide the 30nS 
over ten days accuracy? 

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of jimlux
Sent: 10 September 2010 06:14
To: rich...@karlquist.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Timing Distribution in Mountainous Terrain

Rick Karlquist wrote:
>
> I would like to point out that the environmental sensitivities of the 
> 5071A are unmeasureable, and the measurement threshold is far below 
> 5.8E-14.  I would estimate that the 5071A (and ONLY the 5071A among 
> commercial clocks) could get the job done provided that you could 
> compare its frequency to GPS to the stated accuracy.  This would be 
> using the 5071 as a secondary standard.  You still need to deal with 
> the short term stability of the 5071A, depending on your system needs.  
> JPL uses H masers as flywheels.


We also use the maser as a very low phase noise signal in the 10-1000 second 
tau range..
We multiply it up and send the (very clean) signal out to the spacecraft, it 
gets tracked by a loop with a few Hz BW, then sent back to earth where it's 
compared to the maser again to measure Doppler.

Basically we measure doppler and doppler rate over a few minutes, assuming that 
the transmitted signal is constant during that time (which the maser is, for 
all practical purposes).  Over a longer time span (e.g. the time between 
transmit and receive, which could be many hours, implying that we are 
transmitting from one station and receiving from
another) I assume we use atomic standards and/or astronomical sources (pulsars).

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[time-nuts] OT: Wanted - Racal 1992 or 1998 Custom IC.

[David C. Partridge]

I'm looking for a custom IC used in the Racal 1991/2 and 1998/9 counters.  
Amongst other things it is used to generate the CPU clock.   I know it's dead 
as I've tested it by sticking it into a known good counter.

In the 1992 it is IC18 and in the 1998 it is IC9 and in either case the Racal 
part number is 22-8403 - it's a 40 pin wide DIP.

In both cases it is next to the MPU (or CPU) which is an MC146805E2, which I 
may also need.

Does anyone have an otherwise junker counter with these parts available?

Regards,
David Partridge



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[time-nuts] HP 5090B

[David C. Partridge]

OK, I just got one of these as part of a lot of other test gear.

What is it for?  I found nothing searching the archive, and Google didn't help 
much either.  The Agilent site disclaimed all knowledge!

I suspect it MIGHT be an off air frequency standard as it has 1MHz and 100kHz 
outputs and an aerial input.

Any clues - or pointers to documentation?

Regards,
David Partridge



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[time-nuts] Febo.com SSL certificate expired

[David C. Partridge]

Subject says all

Dave


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Re: [time-nuts] New (refurbished) LPRO-101 GPSDO

[David C. Partridge]

Also 


Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Bob Camp
Sent: 17 October 2010 16:09
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New (refurbished) LPRO-101 GPSDO

Hi

The antenna should do fine just sitting on the roof. It will do better sitting 
over a ground plane. 

Does the antenna have a clear view of the sky to the south?

Bob


On Oct 17, 2010, at 10:15 AM, David McClain wrote:

> Well, not exactly an urban jungle here, but there could be multipath off the 
> neighbor's home... Thanks for that suggestion. I will try moving the antenna 
> about.
> 
> When I first deployed it, the GPS would go solid reception for a while, and 
> it actually claimed to lock, after only an hour or so. But it kept losing the 
> birds and would go back into hunt mode after about 20 minutes of lock time. I 
> wasn't sure that I could trust the lock indication after so short a time. And 
> I didn't like the sporadic lock conditions.
> 
> So I tried duct taping the antenna to the roof tiles that I could reach and 
> got solid GPS reception, but no lock.
> 
> The antenna is a little black hockey puck with a magnetic base. I wonder if 
> it would do better affixed to a metal ground plane?
> 
> First time user of a GPSDO and so I don't know what to expect. But I'm also 
> beginning to understand better that a GSPDO probably is more than was 
> warranted for the needs of a solid reference oscillator for radios. Now that 
> I'm learning more about Rb and GPSDO's in general, I probably could have got 
> by quite well with just a bare LPRO. And I am also beginning to understand 
> that GPSDO's don't necessarily have internal Rb references -- looks like the 
> T'Bird is just a really good OCXO with a GPS discipline. And everyone is 
> raving about T'Birds... The LPRO has an internal Rb reference and an untamed 
> VCXO.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice!
> 
> Dr. David McClain
> Chief Technical Officer
> Refined Audiometrics Laboratory
> 4391 N. Camino Ferreo
> Tucson, AZ  85750
> 
> email: d...@refined-audiometrics.com
> phone: 1.520.390.3995
> web: http://refined-audiometrics.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 17, 2010, at 06:07, mike cook wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Le 17/10/2010 11:55, David McClain a écrit :
>>> 
>>> I just received my LPRO-101 with a GPSDO control on it, from TenMhz.com. 
>>> After fiddling with getting a good placement for the GPS antenna, so that 
>>> it doesn't keep losing the satellites, I have been attempting to discipline 
>>> the oscillator for more than 24 hours.
>>> 
>>> At this point, the LED has been toggling red / green for the past 24 hours 
>>> which indicates solid GPS acquisition and < 5e-8. But it isn't locked to 
>>> NIST until it turns solid green which indicates < 5e-11.
>>> 
>>> Since this is a first deployment at my location, is it reasonable behavior 
>>> for it to take longer than 24 hours to lock to NIST through GPS? Or do you 
>>> think something may be wrong with the device.
>>> 
>> I don't have this box or an LPRO, but if the manafacturer says 24hrs is OK, 
>> then I guess that should be enough.  You may need to give them a call. 
>> However am wondering if you are getting reflected path GPS signals. You said 
>>  that you had to fiddle with the antenna placement. Are you in an urban 
>> jungle? I have a situation where I can see satellites at all times, but once 
>> or twice a day I am getting strong reflected signal which is disturbing the 
>> GPS 1PPS. It is due to buidings opposite my north facing office where the 
>> antenna sits. The issue is seen with my TBOLT, Z3801A and  independent 
>> Oncore GPS engines all of which are not the latest hardware.  That would 
>> cause the PLL to be constantly chasing a moving target.
>>> I already know by comparison to WWV that I'm within a few mHz of 
>>> being aligned, but noise in the measurements, human impatience, and 
>>> wander in the soundcard clock, prevents me knowing any better than 
>>> this. So already I'm < 5e-10. But that's about all I know until I 
>>> see it lock. (If it ever does...)
>>> 
>>> eh?
>>> 
>>> Dr. David McClain
>>> Chief Technical Officer
>>> Refined Audiometrics Laboratory
>>> 4391 N. Camino Ferreo
>>> Tucson, AZ  85750
>>> 
>>> email: d...@refined-audiometrics.com
>>> phone: 1.520.390.3995
>>> web: http://refined-audiometrics.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 15, 2010, at 16:00, Magnus Danielson wrote:
>>> 
 On 10/16/2010 12:08 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
> 
> It's a crazy world when it comes to self signed certs.
> 
> You have at least 5 OS's you need to consider (MS, Linux/FBSD, OS-X, 
> I-OS, Android). You need to think about both browsers and mail clients. 
> Each of those come from a half dozen sources on each platform. Then you 
> have configuration options on each. That's a lot of combinations.
> 
> Each combo seems to have a different idea of what not to d

Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)

[David C. Partridge]

What I do is to remove the EPROMS, take images of them to disk and then re-burn 
them. If they aren't socketed, I add turned pin sockets after removing them.

The ones that worry me aren't so much the EPROMS, but the programmable MCUs 
with on board memory that are no longer available, and are one time burn parts 
and are also no longer obtainable.  I also worry about the later generation 
stuff that has a "security bit" that means you cannot actually read them.

Cheers,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of k6...@comcast.net
Sent: 22 October 2010 23:08
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)

I've got a lot of old(er) HP and Tek test gear. Built to last, the manuals 
include schematics and theory of ops, and they still perform. 

It's not the old electrolytics that scare me -- it's the old EPROMs. All those 
wonderful micro-based instruments with their extensive self-test on startup 
routines -- sooner or later enough of that trapped charge will leak out, and 
bits will start flipping... 

What to do? Pop out the parts and rewrite them? Dump them to disk as well? 

bob k6rtm 


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Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)

[David C. Partridge]

 


Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of David Smith
Sent: 23 October 2010 03:26
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)

Where is k4obb's website?

Dave W6TE


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Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)

[David C. Partridge]

Or it's just been lost between the cracks in reality ... 


Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Bob Camp
Sent: 23 October 2010 21:59
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)

Hi

I've been down that road a couple of times. You get to a point where everyone 
involved does indeed agree that "it's not a secret" anymore. Going the final 
step and actually getting permission to hand out the code is often impossible. 
You get into a "nobody has the authority to approve that" hassle.

Bob
 


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Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors

[David C. Partridge]

 Oh how true - an organisation I worked for some years back had the source code 
matching a custom package that was running at a certain customer, but not the 
build environment (that machine with that precise operating system patch level, 
compiler patch level etc.).

When the customer said thay'd pay for the source to look after if themselves, 
rather than continue to pay maintenance, they insisted that a new build be run 
to prove that exact byte for byte identical binaries to what they were running 
could be re-created  - a wise move indeed - it took 8 man months to re-create 
that build environment (and that was only possible because I insisted we 
archive all the patches to the system, compilers and libraries).

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of David I. Emery
Sent: 24 October 2010 04:22
To: j...@quik.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors

Horror stories abound about organizations that need to make some minor 
patch or change to source code of a popular product for some important customer 
even just a few years after its release and nobody can find the right source 
code or the right build environment (compilers, libraries, OS etc and the 
hardware they ran on) or if they can be found it takes many many hours of 
expensive time and talent to reconstruct the right stuff to actually make a 
code image that matches what is shipping.


--
  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493 "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For 
Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in 
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."


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Re: [time-nuts] Time of death-Again

[David C. Partridge]

Dark Star 

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of d.sei...@comcast.net
Sent: 28 October 2010 10:13
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time of death-Again

Wasn't there a sci-fi movie with a similar scene? (guy riding bomb, but in 
space) I know I've seen it, but can't place it. 


Dave


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Re: [time-nuts] Distribution amp - Use a video amp unit ?

[David C. Partridge]

An Si junction can tolerate pretty high temperatures for a short while, or even 
a long while - Bob Pease reported having had a component sat on the hot end of 
a soldering iron for about 24 hours and still working afterwards ...  

I've never seen a description of how they make those glass cased parts - I 
guess speed is important.

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Peter Gottlieb
Sent: 26 March 2012 13:50
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Distribution amp - Use a video amp unit ?

  how are glass cased
   diodes made?  Wouldn't the temperatures needed to form the glass and
   seal it to the leads destroy the silicon junction being put inside?
   Peter


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Re: [time-nuts] LEA-6T Group buy

[David C. Partridge]

If you are in the UK anything over about USD25 gets hit for customs on entry. 

D.
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Attila Kinali
Sent: 27 March 2012 08:26
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LEA-6T Group buy

On Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:30:40 +0200
Azelio Boriani  wrote:

> 120CHF + the custom duties. Even if in the EU.


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Re: [time-nuts] Best reason

[David C. Partridge]

>I'm currently have to convince management that our 6-1/2 DMM (0.01% 
>uncertainty) can't be used to test the 0.1ppm DC Source that we're repairing.

Don't bother, just send it to me (once you've fixed it natch) :)

On a more serious note what it this DC source that can manage 0.1ppm - the only 
thing I can think of that achieve that level of accuracy has to be a Josephson 
junction array.

Dave


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Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

[David C. Partridge]

Then I suggest we stick to Didier's who already has a timing wiki I believe.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: 08 April 2012 08:10
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370B Manual - Searchable?

In message <4228A5D7373F4DE7BD482AFEACF85458@narvik>, "David J Taylor" writes:
>> This is the kind of important and detailed information I really wish 
>> we would collect in a wiki somewhere...
>> 
>> -- 
>> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>
>You can set up a free Wiki here:

I'm fine with any one wiki for the purpose, provided we all agree that's the 
one we will use.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Best location for a GPS antenna...?

[David C. Partridge]

A lightening strike anywhere within 10ft will probably total your antenna, the 
coax and the GPS receiver attached to it. 

D.
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH)
Sent: 12 April 2012 09:10
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Best location for a GPS antenna...?

What about mounting the antenna on the side of the metal pole, with the top of 
the pole extending a foot or more above the antenna?

The idea is to have the lightning bolt strike the pole, but not the antenna. 
The cable shield would need to be insulated from the pole, but grounded on 
entry to the building.

Would the pole disturb the GPS signal to any noticeable extent?

Cheers
Stefan


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Re: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads

[David C. Partridge]

You are not alone ...

No, it's not a Spam filter - I check Spam folders regularly and my ISP doesn't 
pre-filter.

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Rob Kimberley
Sent: 18 April 2012 12:54
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads

I don't know if it is just me, but I seem not to be getting all messages from 
Time Nuts. Quite often I'm seeing replies to a thread, and for the life of me I 
can't find the original post.

Comments anyone?

Rob Kimberley


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Re: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads

[David C. Partridge]

Even wierder - there was a reply to your post at least 10 minutes BEFORE your 
post arrived.

Someone is messing with causality.

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Rob Kimberley
Sent: 18 April 2012 12:54
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads

I don't know if it is just me, but I seem not to be getting all messages from 
Time Nuts. Quite often I'm seeing replies to a thread, and for the life of me I 
can't find the original post.

Comments anyone?

Rob Kimberley




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[time-nuts] Message for Robert Berg

[David C. Partridge]

As it is not clear to me that Robert has received my emails, I am sending this 
via the list.  My apologies for the bandwidth :/

Robert, 

Yes I have the Tektronix 7T11 to 7T11A conversion kits available, and you may 
pay using Paypal to this email.

Please acknowledge

Thanks
David Partridge


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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone from Italy here ?

[David C. Partridge]

No, Italian law doesn't require DOB or place of birth registering for 
purchases, I suspect his email has been hi-jacked by someone who's attempting 
to get into the identity theft business.

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of cfo
Sent: 02 May 2012 16:48
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone from Italy here ?

:

Here in Italy is requiring by law.. that for all customers that have bought 
something from us, I need to have also birthplace and birthday.


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Re: [time-nuts] Why 9,192,631,770 ??

[David C. Partridge]

It's unlikely you'll ever see a negative leap second - the earth's rotation is 
slowing down, not speeding up. 

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Jerry Mulchin
Sent: 09 May 2012 01:56
To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why 9,192,631,770 ??

>It is interesting that the leap seconds correction is always a positive number.

Jerry


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Re: [time-nuts] Serial port server .. any interest in a write up on using ?

[David C. Partridge]

Another thread where the first mail never got to me ... 

I too am interested - I wonder why I have this problem too?! 

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Jerry Mulchin
Sent: 22 May 2012 04:51
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Serial port server .. any interest in a write up on 
using ?


Ditto for me..

Jerry

At 08:16 PM 5/21/2012, you wrote:
>I would be interested in some more information.  I've got quite a few 
>RS232 devices as well and not nearly enough ports even if I used all my 
>computers.
>
>Alan
>
>On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Pete Lancashire 
>wrote:
>
>> Like many time-nuts I have quite a few devices that communicate to 
>> the outside world with a serial port. And like many I have more then one.
>> In a past life I use to have to connect to sometimes a 100 RS232 in 
>> one location. A popular device is called a terminal server or 
>> concentrator. They would take from 1 to 48 RS232 ports on one side 
>> and let you talk to them via an Ethernet interface. I so far have 
>> twelve
>> RS232 ports in use.
>>
>> ...
>
>So if this is of interest to anyone I'll go into more detail, models, 
>setup
>> etc.
>>
>> -pete
>>
>> -pete
>>
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>>
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>and follow the instructions there.


Jerry Mulchin



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Re: [time-nuts] Another ThunderBolt cabling question

[David C. Partridge]

No you can't load the 10MHz (or the PPS) with five instruments in parallel.  
You need a distribution amplifier. 

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Chris Wilson
Sent: 13 June 2012 22:33
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Another ThunderBolt cabling question



  13/06/2012 22:27

About to do the permanent installation, if I bring two leads from the 10 MHz 
and 1 PPS BNC sockets on the TB to a panel in my shck can i have say 5 BNC 
sockets on the panel wired in parallel, with the lead from the 10 MHz socket on 
the TB feeding them all? And a single socket for the 1 PPS? Any need to screen 
the back of the socket panel, or enclose it in a metal box? Cheers.

Oh, I have been running lady Heather for a while tonight, here's a screen 
capture, does it look OK, ther's suddenly just two traces appeared? Thanks. 
http://www.chriswilson.tv/heather.png

-- 
   Best Regards,
   Chris Wilson.
mailto: ch...@chriswilson.tv


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Re: [time-nuts] I am looking for the email address for David Partridge

[David C. Partridge]

david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk

See also  where you'll find a write up on the divider.

Sorry to say, there are no made up boards left.  The minimum order that's 
economic is for 100 made up boards, so I need a lot of interest to justify 
another batch.

I have a very few un-populated PCBs left at GBP10 plus postage and packing 
(depends where you live). 

Regards,
David Partridge
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Ken Kubick
Sent: 25 July 2012 04:26
To: Time Nuts
Subject: [time-nuts] I am looking for the email address for David Partridge


Hi time-nuts guys,  I am looking for the email address for David Partridge.  I 
want to find out more information on the 'time-nuts' frequency divider that was 
discussed and optimised here in detail some time ago.
 Thankyou Ken Kubick  
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Re: [time-nuts] I am looking for the email address for DavidPartridge

[David C. Partridge]

My apologies,

I had a brain fault - the unpopulated boards are GBP20 each *not* GBP10.  
Postage to UK is an additional GBP5, and GBP12 to the rest of the world. 

I will honour the price of GBP10 per board for those that have already ordered.

Sorry,
David Partridge
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of David C. Partridge
Sent: 25 July 2012 10:29
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] I am looking for the email address for DavidPartridge

david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk

See also  where you'll find a write up on the divider.

Sorry to say, there are no made up boards left.  The minimum order that's 
economic is for 100 made up boards, so I need a lot of interest to justify 
another batch.

I have a very few un-populated PCBs left at GBP10 plus postage and packing 
(depends where you live). 

Regards,
David Partridge


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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS and frequency divider loading question.

[David C. Partridge]

The input of the divider is 50 ohm terminated.
 
Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Chris Wilson
Sent: 13 August 2012 22:26
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS and frequency divider loading question.



  13/08/2012 22:18

David Partridge was able to supply one of his last remaining frequency dividers 
to me, for use with my TB GPS standard. It works perfectly and is now in a nice 
enclosure feeding a small array of BNC sockets on my shack wall. My question 
is, if I take the 10 MHz output of the TB into David's frequency divider:

http://www.perdrix.co.uk/FrequencyDivider/index.html

is it loaded much? Can I T off at the TB 10 MHz output port and feed a socket 
on my distribution panel to see the unadulterated 10 MHz sine wave as well as 
having it feeding the divider? It's very useful as I now have a 1 MHZ standard 
to run my old Racal frequency counter off, plus all the other output 
frequencies. I used to use the 10 MHz output of the TB direct to the Racal, but 
had to remember to do the maths, I was a bit surprised 10 MHz worked at all 
into the external standard
1 MHz input port.Thanks.

-- 
   Best Regards,
   Chris Wilson.
mailto: ch...@chriswilson.tv


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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS and frequency divider loadingquestion.

[David C. Partridge]

I'd put the distribution amplifier between the TB and the divider 

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Bob Camp
Sent: 16 August 2012 02:23
To: Chris Wilson; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS and frequency divider loadingquestion.

Hi

I have *way* more stuff that uses 10 MHz than 1 pps. Frequency counters, 
synthesizers, spectrum analyzers, all sorts of stuff.

Bob


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Re: [time-nuts] Re; New Wrist watch

[David C. Partridge]

GUT (Gallifree Universal Time) of course.

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Don Latham
Sent: 10 September 2012 18:39
To: Tom Van Baak; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Re; New Wrist watch

Oh Boy. Just occurred to me; what reference is used in the Tardis
Don


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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Lives

[David C. Partridge]

The self survey will go green after it has completed the survey as will the
stored position.

Dave 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Ackrill
Sent: 22 July 2008 17:47
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Lives

Well, setting up the Trimble software was quite straight forward, and I've
got nearly all Green on the alarms.

The only two yellowed are "Self Survey Activity" and "Stored Possition". 
  I'll do some reading of the manual before I go messing with any of the
settings.

Next thing to do is save up for the 10GHz transceiver that this will be used
to keep on frequency, and think about making some form of portable power
supply.

Has anyone done any tests as to how far out voltages on the +12 and -12 Volt
lines can go before the Thunderbolt goes out of lock?  One of the problems
with using batteries out in the field is the weight.  However, I guess I
could probably manage a couple of lightweight 12V Gell Cells in series, and
then some voltage regulators to give the 3 rails for the supply.  Seeing
that the power requirement isn't that great on the mains PSU, I would guess
that a well charged, small, pair of gell cells would do?

Dave (G0DJA)

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[time-nuts] PCB for frequency dividers

[David C. Partridge]

I'm going to place an order for the PCB for my frequency divider in the next
few days.   If I can get a batch of ten ordered the cost will be about USD60
each plus postage to wherever you are.   PCB is four layer, 5" by 3.5", pads
will be electrolytic Ni/Au (this house doesn't charge extra for that).

The price goes down as the numbers go up of course.   If anyone thinks they
can better this price, I'm happy to ship the gerbers and NC drill files.

I never did hear back from Magnus about the circuit driving the selectors on
the '4051, so that stays as it is.

I have one firm request from Norman J McSweyn.

If anyone else would like to order a PCB please could you email me directly
(rather than on list) at

david dot partridge at dsl dot pipex dot com

I also have a few spare of the '4017 dividers and lots of BAV99 which I'm
happy to pass on at cost to me.

Cheers
Dave


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Re: [time-nuts] PCB for frequency dividers

[David C. Partridge]

So if Au isn't the thing, what's the better answer?   HASL Sn is the other
common option and I can smell tin whiskers as the counter argument to that.
Electroless Ag?

Don't even think of suggesting regular HASL Sn/Pb - none of the PCB shops
will do that here (RoHS).

Dave 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: 24 July 2008 22:51
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PCB for frequency dividers

Au plating leaves the solder joints vulnerable to the formation of the AuSn
intermetallic compound which will lead to joint failure.
You may need to remove the Au before soldering.


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Re: [time-nuts] PCB for frequency dividers

[David C. Partridge]

Currently I have requests for 5 boards.  The pricing I gave earlier (based
on an order qty of ten) didn't include the tax I have to pay or the shipping
to me.

Pricing will be about USD70 each plus shipping if I get no further requests.

The more interest the lower the price of course.   If I can buy 'em cheaper
you will get 'em cheaper.   In the unlikely event that there are requests
for 50 units, the price will be somewhere around USD20 each (or less).

I'll hold off placing the order until after the weekend to see if there are
any more takers.

BTW Someone suggested that this might be relevant to TAPR.   I'm very happy
to grant TAPR the free (no charge) use of the design, conditional only on my
retaining copyright.

If Didier is happy to host the files, I'm also very happy to make the
gerbers and other stuff available on his website.   The gerbers are of
course already packaged up ready to ship to the PCB mfr.

Oh yes, a question - is it normal for solder mask gerbers to show where the
solder mask WON'T be (that is on the pads)?

I've looked at the other PCB houses folks have suggested, but most are
US/Canada based, and by the time I've paid shipping to the UK, import duty,
handling charges, and taxes any small saving in the per board cost is
totally wiped out.

The crazy thing is that the UK house I'm proposing to use actually gets
their stuff fabbed in China, shipped half way round the world, and still end
up charging a very small fraction of the cost of using local PCB
manufacturers.

Dave


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Re: [time-nuts] PCB for frequency dividers

[David C. Partridge]

John,

Read the license - seems appropriate to me.  Happy to talk further, let's
take this off list.

Please use my email david dot partridge at dsl dot pipex dot com

I'll be away over the w/e so don't expect a prompt reply ...

Cheers
Dave

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR
Sent: 25 July 2008 18:18
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PCB for frequency dividers

David C. Partridge said the following on 07/25/2008 12:17 PM:

> BTW Someone suggested that this might be relevant to TAPR.   I'm very
happy
> to grant TAPR the free (no charge) use of the design, conditional only 
> on my retaining copyright.

TAPR's Time and Frequency Design Team (i.e., me) is definitely interested in
a divider design, though what I had in mind is slightly different than your
design, David, perhaps because of a slightly different idea of
functionality, as well as matching the footprint of the existing TADD-1 and
TADD-3 boards.  I've been a bit out of the loop lately because of some
medical problems, but would love to talk with you about this.

But more generally, and why I'm sending this to the list, I'd encourage
hardware designers to look at the TAPR Open Hardware License
(http://www.tapr.org/OHL) for their projects.  It's available for use by
anyone, whether or not connected with TAPR.

John

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Re: [time-nuts] PCB for frequency dividers

[David C. Partridge]

I've taken a bit of a risk and ordered 20 boards.  Rash in extreme or what!

What does this mean?   It means that I can sell the boards at a price of
GBP20 each (about USD40).

I will not request $$$ or ship any boards until I have made up my own first
to confirm everything is OK.

This won't be until end August as some parts are on back-order with Mouser.

Please email me direct if you would like to pre-order any.

If you would like a copy of the circuit diagram, or the BOM (.xls file) just
shout (it's complete bar the thumbwheel switch, and wire).

Dave


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Re: [time-nuts] Power supply for Thunderbolt

[David C. Partridge]

I'm using the Meanwell T30-B, but Tom van Baak's test on this shows a bit of
phase noise at 1Hz offset which is a tad nasty:

http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/noise.htm

I'm wondering if this can be reduced with a bit of extra de-coupling on the
5V supply, but haven't got round to scoping the 5V supply to see what
happens every second (presumably as the output is sent to the serial port).

Cheers
Dave

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of F Mitchell
Sent: 05 August 2008 17:24
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Power supply for Thunderbolt

Anyone have a suggestion for a power supply for the

Thunderbolt?

 

Thanks

Mitch W4OA

 

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Re: [time-nuts] Designing and building an OCXO and GPSDO

[David C. Partridge]

Stupid question - why build your own OCXO when you can buy a pretty good
Oscilloquartz OCXO from eBay item number 300247357254 for almost a song?

Yes I know - it's fun!

Dave


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Re: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller

[David C. Partridge]

 Not quite as horrid as the guys who felt I necessary to write APL
"one-liners".  This elevated obscurity to a whole new art form.

D.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Robert Vassar
Sent: 04 September 2008 23:26
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller

That is a highly language dependent metric.  I can't see this applying to
assembly.  I spend a lot of time coding Perl at work, and I shudder to think
what would happen if this was part of a coding standard.  My colleagues
would take this as some kind of challenge...  :-)







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[time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator.

[David C. Partridge]

I'm having some problems with an ancient Bulova OCXO in a Tektronix 184
'scope calibrator.   

This is an crystal mounted on an octal valve base with a heater winding
wrapped round it, and a common or garden variety thermostat which is
supposed to switch at 75 celsius.   I've not measured the switching
temperature, as I don't have the means but the outer case does get fairly
warm (40 plus degrees?).   The oven is turning on and off.

It is used in a circuit with a 7587 Nuvistor tetrode (yes it's a valve/tube
circuit).  The crystal is connected cathode to G1 with a trimmer capacitor
of 3-12pF.   The signal at the cathode is supposed to be about 70V p-p.

I'm measuring the frequency of the signal after the transformer stage which
couples it to the first stage of a countdown board.

For the first minute or so after turn on from cold, it sits below 10MHz and
is fairly stable and climbing as the oven warms up, and I can adjust the
frequency up towards 10MHz with the capacitor (but not all the way), then
suddenly, at the stage where it is starting to look as if it will soon
stabilise at about the right frequency, it jumps to way over 10MHz and the
lowest I can get it down to with the capacitor is about 10.0003xxx MHz where
xxx is not very stable at all - in fact it can vary up to to 10.0005xxx and
down to 10.0002xxx.

I've tried freeze spray on most of the components round there to no effect.

If I try to probe the signal at the cathode of the nuvistor even with a high
impedance active probe with a P6201 with a 100x attenuator (about 1pF
loading IIRC) the oscillation just drops dead.

Now for calibrating 'scopes, it doesn't need to be any more accurate than it
is (30ppm) - but ...

Do any of the collected mavens have an explanation for the behaviour, and
recommendations for fixing things?

Cheers
Dave


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Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator.

[David C. Partridge]

Oops I think its about 300ppm there...

D. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: 07 September 2008 14:56
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator.

I'm having some problems with an ancient Bulova OCXO in a Tektronix 184
'scope calibrator.   

This is an crystal mounted on an octal valve base with a heater winding
wrapped round it, and a common or garden variety thermostat which is
supposed to switch at 75 celsius.   I've not measured the switching
temperature, as I don't have the means but the outer case does get fairly
warm (40 plus degrees?).   The oven is turning on and off.

It is used in a circuit with a 7587 Nuvistor tetrode (yes it's a valve/tube
circuit).  The crystal is connected cathode to G1 with a trimmer capacitor
of 3-12pF.   The signal at the cathode is supposed to be about 70V p-p.

I'm measuring the frequency of the signal after the transformer stage which
couples it to the first stage of a countdown board.

For the first minute or so after turn on from cold, it sits below 10MHz and
is fairly stable and climbing as the oven warms up, and I can adjust the
frequency up towards 10MHz with the capacitor (but not all the way), then
suddenly, at the stage where it is starting to look as if it will soon
stabilise at about the right frequency, it jumps to way over 10MHz and the
lowest I can get it down to with the capacitor is about 10.0003xxx MHz where
xxx is not very stable at all - in fact it can vary up to to 10.0005xxx and
down to 10.0002xxx.

I've tried freeze spray on most of the components round there to no effect.

If I try to probe the signal at the cathode of the nuvistor even with a high
impedance active probe with a P6201 with a 100x attenuator (about 1pF
loading IIRC) the oscillation just drops dead.

Now for calibrating 'scopes, it doesn't need to be any more accurate than it
is (30ppm) - but ...

Do any of the collected mavens have an explanation for the behaviour, and
recommendations for fixing things?

Cheers
Dave


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Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator.

[David C. Partridge]

Nuvistor is NOS, and I've tried swapping them.

Circuit has anode (plate) connected to a 50MHz tuned tank.

G1 is connected to ground via a 100K resistor, and to the cathode via the
crystal and trimmer cap.

Cathode connected to ground via a ferrite tunable slug inductor (6-10uH)
close to a similar one also 6-10uH.  The second one has 100K in parallel
with 1nF to ground, and 15pF across the inductor.   The second one has a
pick off coil of a couple of turns which sends the signal to the countdown
board.

The full schematic is in the Tektronix 184 manual on BAMA which is in djvu
format.

Cheers
Dave

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: 07 September 2008 23:38
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator.


> Dave
>
> Need a few more circuit details.
> The crystal current wont be very high unless their are other 
> components connected to G1.
>
> Bruce
>
>   
The anode G1 capacitance is about 10fF so with 25V rms at the anode, the
crystal current would be around 16uA if the circuit relies on feedback via
the anode to grid 1 capacitance.
This seems to be a little low to be useful.
You could try substituting a newer 7587 there are several currently
available on ebay and elsewhere.

Bruce


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Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator.

[David C. Partridge]

Agree that the tank slug can also affect the frequency slightly.

I've tried a number of 7587s including what I was fairly sure to be NOS
parts - at least they came in the correct box.

I suspect I can pull the frequency a bit by paralleling another 5 or 6pF
across the trimmer (why has the parts box never got what you are looking
for? - this feels like a corollary to Murphy).

The main issue is how unstable it is - maybe I just stop chasing this and
write it down to a very old crystal that's aged out of spec, and just
replace it with a regular 20ppm room temperature part.

Cheers
Dave
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: 08 September 2008 08:41
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator.

Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Dave, Bruce,
>
>   
>> Need a few more circuit details.
>> The crystal current wont be very high unless their are other 
>> components connected to G1.
>> 
>
> As expected, BAMA can assist:
> http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/tek/184/
>
> I am thinking about undamped overtones/other modes of the crystal and 
> similar.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>   
The crystal oscillator is in effect a miller oscillator using the screen
grid as the oscillator anode/plate see:
http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/s6310508.pdf

The oscillator plate/anode (screen grid is grounded) in this circuit.
The tube plate/anode forms a well isolated auxiliary output tuned to the 5th
harmonic of the crystal.

If the tube emission has dropped the gm may have fallen rather too close to
the critical value required for oscillation making the circuit sensitive to
loading at the grid.
Both the trimmer and the cathode tank slug affect the frequency.


Bruce


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Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator.

[David C. Partridge]

Following the good advice I received about increasing the value of the
trimmer capacitor, I replaced the trimmer which was originally 3-12pF, with
another one which was 2-22pF.

This has given the additional adjustment range to allow me to pull the
crystal to meet the specification.

It's not mega-stable, varying between 9.619 MHz to 10.232 MHz over
the course of a minute or so as the thermostat cycles, but certainly within
the 10ppm specification and varying up and down by about 6-7ppm.   This is
before the full 2 hour warm up period is complete, but I don't things will
change much over the next 45 minutes or so.   The stability seems to be
improving as the warm up continues which is good.

I may be able to tweak it so the variation is more evenly balanced around
10.000 MHz, but the trimmer adjustment is pretty sensitive.

Still don't understand why probing with a 10Meg, 1pF load kills the
oscillation stone dead until the next power cycle.

Thanks to all

Cheers
Dave 


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