[ubuntu-art] That's a wrap everyone!
All the times I've tried to get people who don't really know much about designing get involved with any work, whether it's print, web or art, I've been let down because even though you'd expect those people to be able to give a fully unbiased review from an outsider's point of view, they really just will either approve or disprove of whatever you've made based on ridiculous criteria. The art work is not for our pleasure its for the users of Ubuntu so NOT asking them what they want us to do for Edgy is crazy. I think coming up with some colour proposals that the art team like and (to some degree) agree on, then present these to the users on the forums with a poll to see what is popular. We could also poll people on their favourite art in Dapper to get a feel of what worked. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] That's a wrap everyone!
On Thu, 2006-01-06 at 09:17 -0700, Chuck Huber wrote: Hopefully what comes from the Paris meeting will be rather broad style guidelines and not a ton of overly confining details. I'm sure we all appreciate that as artists we need room for creativity or else Bad Art happens. Details are the only thing that can really work. 1) Details give you deadlines. 2) Details prevent you from wasting effort. 3) Details give you specifics. Confining isn't a bad thing. Lack of confinement isn't terribly creative either -- as one can clearly see from history. Bad Art is roughly equivalent to No Art -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] That's a wrap everyone!
Julian Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ..on Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 06:30:20PM +0200, Michiel Sikma wrote: Op 1-jun-2006, om 18:27 heeft Tom Moitie het volgende geschreven: Julian isn't saying that the users should be choosing the direction that the Ubuntu artwork should go, but to gain critique from them, so that you, as the designers, can make better choices. Listening to people who don't know what they're doing doesn't mean you have to follow what they want. You guys are, of course, the graphical designers. That's right. Like I said, I do think that it's a very good idea to work with the community so that we may get feedback from them, but I don't think that it's right to put much weight on such opinions. Julian's mail made kind of made it seem so, but I guess he too thinks that community votes don't make up a good final decision.i don't necessarily think community wide votes should direct which artis shipped with Ubuntu. such voting schemes are riddled with all sortsof problems, the first being there are always some that are inclined to vote and many that aren't. i do however think a steady stream of opinion on the state of the Ubuntu artworkwould be extremely useful for designers - wherever it comes from. having a wishlist and or opinions forum focussed on artwork alone (not issues relating to Ubuntu more generally) would also (importantly) give users the confidence of a central context for being heard - with nopromise of implementation. as a bonus, this can only strengthen user good-will. currently such suggestions/opinions/criticisms are offered as bugs or randomly dispersed throughout threads in blogs and user forums.naturally there would be alot of feedback that isn't useful. i'm sure however there'd be some insights that would be very difficult to reach from the perspective of a designer.how many hard-of-seeing people to we have telling us how brilliant ourhigh-visibility theme is for instance? I also think that bringing incompetent people into the design process is a bad idea. During my carrier, I cannot recall even one single occasion when such an involvement helped improving a project. But exactly the opposite, when they got a chance they even ruined that what before had at least some quality.J. Mak http://jozmak.googlepages.com Make free worldwide PC-to-PC calls. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger with Voice-- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] That's a wrap everyone!
..on Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 02:26:29PM +0200, Michiel Sikma wrote: I don't think that's a very good idea. We need to select a theme based on good discussion about the propositions in which we provide good arguments. We're all graphic designers, so we know what usability means and what visual identification is all about. At the risk of sounding elitist, I really don't think it's a good idea to let the community get that involved in our work. that's treading down a dangerous and foolish path. a designer that doesn't listen to their audience is in danger of obsolence through self-rarification. Ubuntu and it's software is for the user. therefore, as a useability target, their opinions must be configured within the design process; it is only logical that they have influence over the end product, if only on the level they provide a rich (and potentially diverse) pool of critique. Apple, for instance, has really messed up there, by coming up with an Empirical model of Useability that simply doesn't work across the board. tooth and nail they fight for that broken helper app called the Finder yet their _users_ beg for them to replace it with something that actually works (ever counted the mouse clicks it takes to perform the same/similar task across OSX and Ubuntu?). Microsoft, on the other hand, hasn't listened to their users whatsoever. Ubuntu is in an ideal position to break this design hegemony and actively configure user opinion within the design process. All the times I've tried to get people who don't really know much about designing get involved with any work, whether it's print, web or art, I've been let down because even though you'd expect those people to be able to give a fully unbiased review from an outsider's point of view, they really just will either approve or disprove of whatever you've made based on ridiculous criteria. people don't have to know about semiotics and colour theory to know what they like to use/look at day in, day out. i support the idea for creating a user--designer feedback stream, if only as a valuable (even necessary) point of reference. julian -- __ _ ___ ___| |___ __| |_ _ __ __ _ _ _| |__ ___ (_-/ -_) / -_) _| _| '_ \/ _` | '_| / /(_- /__/\___|_\___\__|\__| .__/\__,_|_| |_\_\/__/ |_http://selectparks.net/~julian -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] That's a wrap everyone!
Op 1-jun-2006, om 15:04 heeft Julian Oliver het volgende geschreven: ..on Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 02:26:29PM +0200, Michiel Sikma wrote: I don't think that's a very good idea. We need to select a theme based on good discussion about the propositions in which we provide good arguments. We're all graphic designers, so we know what usability means and what visual identification is all about. At the risk of sounding elitist, I really don't think it's a good idea to let the community get that involved in our work. that's treading down a dangerous and foolish path. No. Thinking that it's a good idea to listen to people who don't know anything about designing is a foolish thing. People really don't know much about that kind of stuff. You're absolutely right that people know what they do and don't want to see every day when they use their computer, but we know that as well. I don't know what else to say that I haven't already said. Just because users might say that something is good or not good doesn't make it so. a designer that doesn't listen to their audience is in danger of obsolence through self-rarification. I agree with that, but we're not exactly in danger of obsolence. There's not a single design team closer to its audience than an open source team. We do listen to the public a lot, and I do agree that listening to the public is a very good idea. There's a difference between asking people to give feedback and making people vote on whichever theme they like better simply for the sake of having the public decide. All decisions should really be the result of thought and good discussion by knowledgeable designers based on design principles and guidelines. Decisions should, ultimately (and typically, since there will always be exceptions), be made by the art team and not the people. Ubuntu and it's software is for the user. therefore, as a useability target, their opinions must be configured within the design process; it is only logical that they have influence over the end product, if only on the level they provide a rich (and potentially diverse) pool of critique. I agree with that as well. Apple, for instance, has really messed up there, by coming up with an Empirical model of Useability that simply doesn't work across the board. tooth and nail they fight for that broken helper app called the Finder yet their _users_ beg for them to replace it with something that actually works (ever counted the mouse clicks it takes to perform the same/similar task across OSX and Ubuntu?). I don't get it. I've never heard that people are begging Apple to replace the broken Finder. It seems like that's just weaseling. Who's saying that, and why do you believe they represent the majority of developers? I find that the Finder is a very nice file manager and that the Human Interface Guidelines do represent methods and rules for making better applications. Panic (http://panic.com/) makes very good software and follows such guidelines sharply, for example. I don't intend to start a discussion about that here, though. All the times I've tried to get people who don't really know much about designing get involved with any work, whether it's print, web or art, I've been let down because even though you'd expect those people to be able to give a fully unbiased review from an outsider's point of view, they really just will either approve or disprove of whatever you've made based on ridiculous criteria. people don't have to know about semiotics and colour theory to know what they like to use/look at day in, day out. Of course they don't. That doesn't mean that people who really don't know anything about designing should have the final say. I've always been disappointed because people who aren't designers have a tendency to simply give really bad arguments for their choices, and we can't make decisions based on random input. -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] That's a wrap everyone!
Public feedback should be looked at as a tool. It certainly should not be the only tool guiding design decision but used wisely(some would say sparingly) it can prove helpful. The least inspiring art I've seen was produced by well thought out and very democratic community decision. Isn't there an unwritten rule that states The smarter the group of corporate executives designing the art, the grayer and more dull it gets? Hopefully what comes from the Paris meeting will be rather broad style guidelines and not a ton of overly confining details. I'm sure we all appreciate that as artists we need room for creativity or else Bad Art happens. Then again I doubt any of us is entirely happy with the community art we ended up with on this CD. At least I'm not. And with that as our recent record it's going to be quite a push to get out from under pressure to be micro managed. Though I want no part of it, I'd suggest we create a workable management structure of our own BEFORE Paris or we really do risk being governed heavily from outside(i.e. non artists). Chuck -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] That's a wrap everyone!
I'm not a graphical designer, but I'm just kind of reading in on these discussions. Hope you don't mind my input. On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 17:01 +0200, Michiel Sikma wrote: No. Thinking that it's a good idea to listen to people who don't know anything about designing is a foolish thing. People really don't know much about that kind of stuff. Julian isn't saying that the users should be choosing the direction that the Ubuntu artwork should go, but to gain critique from them, so that you, as the designers, can make better choices. Listening to people who don't know what they're doing doesn't mean you have to follow what they want. You guys are, of course, the graphical designers. I think that you should extend into letting the community have more say in what they want and don't want, because this is a distribution that prides itself on its communication with the user base. You might hear or see things that make you thing, Wow, that could look pretty awesome. Remember that by listening to people's ideas doesn't affect your eventual judgement. Tom Moitie -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] That's a wrap everyone!
..on Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 06:30:20PM +0200, Michiel Sikma wrote: Op 1-jun-2006, om 18:27 heeft Tom Moitie het volgende geschreven: Julian isn't saying that the users should be choosing the direction that the Ubuntu artwork should go, but to gain critique from them, so that you, as the designers, can make better choices. Listening to people who don't know what they're doing doesn't mean you have to follow what they want. You guys are, of course, the graphical designers. That's right. Like I said, I do think that it's a very good idea to work with the community so that we may get feedback from them, but I don't think that it's right to put much weight on such opinions. Julian's mail made kind of made it seem so, but I guess he too thinks that community votes don't make up a good final decision. i don't necessarily think community wide votes should direct which art is shipped with Ubuntu. such voting schemes are riddled with all sorts of problems, the first being there are always some that are inclined to vote and many that aren't. i do however think a steady stream of opinion on the state of the Ubuntu artwork would be extremely useful for designers - wherever it comes from. having a wishlist and or opinions forum focussed on artwork alone (not issues relating to Ubuntu more generally) would also (importantly) give users the confidence of a central context for being heard - with no promise of implementation. as a bonus, this can only strengthen user good-will. currently such suggestions/opinions/criticisms are offered as bugs or randomly dispersed throughout threads in blogs and user forums. naturally there would be alot of feedback that isn't useful. i'm sure however there'd be some insights that would be very difficult to reach from the perspective of a designer. how many hard-of-seeing people to we have telling us how brilliant our high-visibility theme is for instance? julian -- __ _ ___ ___| |___ __| |_ _ __ __ _ _ _| |__ ___ (_-/ -_) / -_) _| _| '_ \/ _` | '_| / /(_- /__/\___|_\___\__|\__| .__/\__,_|_| |_\_\/__/ |_http://selectparks.net/~julian -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
Re: [ubuntu-art] That's a wrap everyone!
Julian Oliver wrote: ..on Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 06:30:20PM +0200, Michiel Sikma wrote: Op 1-jun-2006, om 18:27 heeft Tom Moitie het volgende geschreven: Julian isn't saying that the users should be choosing the direction that the Ubuntu artwork should go, but to gain critique from them, so that you, as the designers, can make better choices. Listening to people who don't know what they're doing doesn't mean you have to follow what they want. You guys are, of course, the graphical designers. That's right. Like I said, I do think that it's a very good idea to work with the community so that we may get feedback from them, but I don't think that it's right to put much weight on such opinions. Julian's mail made kind of made it seem so, but I guess he too thinks that community votes don't make up a good final decision. i don't necessarily think community wide votes should direct which art is shipped with Ubuntu. such voting schemes are riddled with all sorts of problems, the first being there are always some that are inclined to vote and many that aren't. i do however think a steady stream of opinion on the state of the Ubuntu artwork would be extremely useful for designers - wherever it comes from. having a wishlist and or opinions forum focussed on artwork alone (not issues relating to Ubuntu more generally) would also (importantly) give users the confidence of a central context for being heard - with no promise of implementation. as a bonus, this can only strengthen user good-will. currently such suggestions/opinions/criticisms are offered as bugs or randomly dispersed throughout threads in blogs and user forums. naturally there would be alot of feedback that isn't useful. i'm sure however there'd be some insights that would be very difficult to reach from the perspective of a designer. how many hard-of-seeing people to we have telling us how brilliant our high-visibility theme is for instance? julian I guess we're on the same page, then. I think I misunderstood your first post to the mailing list, actually. Sorry about that. You're actually right that there's little feedback from the community. I've been thinking of starting a blog about Ubuntu artwork development which would then hopefully be an easy reference point as to what's going on for the community. I should work on that. Might be a nice idea. Michiel -- ubuntu-art mailing list ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
