Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread Marius Gedminas 
On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 05:52:16PM -0400, Martin Pitt wrote:
> > Here's a link to an article that talks about Fedora's idea:
> > http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Fedora-considers-moving-all-binaries-to-usr-bin-1369642.html?view=print
> >  
> 
> That would mean that we need to drop the possibility to have /usr on a
> separate partition/network file system, or make the initramfs
> clever/complicated enough to actually wait for /usr to come up.

Is a separate /usr currently fully supported in Ubuntu?

http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/separate-usr-is-broken
argues rather convincingly that udev rules might be trying to access
things like /usr/share/misc/pci.ids during early boot, at least in
Fedora.

> Also, the separation of /sbin and /usr/sbin is not just totally
> random; for non-admin users it makes them not appear in tab completion
> etc, which cleans up the command namespace a bit.

Doesn't Ubuntu put both /usr/bin and /usr/sbin in $PATH by default for
all users?  My /etc/environment contains

  PATH="/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games"

and I'm quite sure I haven't edited it by hand.

Marius Gedminas
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-- The Spellsong War by L. E. Modesitt, Jr.


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Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread Scott Kitterman 

On 11/01/2011 01:42 PM, Jeff Hanson wrote:

What annoys me more is the third-party use of both /usr/local and
/opt.  I would rather get rid of /opt.  I consider /usr/local the
proper place for anything not handled by a package manager.


FHS has a very specific purpose for /opt and it's different than /usr/local.

Scott K

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Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread Jeff Hanson 
What annoys me more is the third-party use of both /usr/local and
/opt.  I would rather get rid of /opt.  I consider /usr/local the
proper place for anything not handled by a package manager.

> From: Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals 
> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:52:32 +0100
>
> In case you installed some application manually, it may be in
> /usr/local/bin or somewhere in /opt. This is so you can separate
> distribution stuff from other random stuff.

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Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread Martin Pool 
I do think Lennart's arguments in

make sense.

On 2 November 2011 07:02, nick rundy  wrote:
> There are several situations where I need to find an executable. One that
> comes immediately to mind is when I need to specify what program to use to
> open an online stream and the program I want is not appearing in an offered
> list. So I need to go find the .exe.

This is a (set of) bugs that ought to be fixed in their own right:
ideally the correct program should just appear in the list, but when
it doesn't the user should not need to poke around on the filesystem
to find it.

> The $which command often can't find the exe because the
> exe has been placed somewhere else (hence why putting all this stuff in one
> place is a good idea).

If it's placed somewhere not on the default path, then it's either an
executable that is not normally intended to be run directly (some
things in /usr/lib), or it came out of a third party installer that
put it in /opt/ or /usr/local/randomprogram or /home.  Ubuntu moving
all the packaged programs doesn't seem very likely to fix that, but
 might help.

m

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Re: Moving all binaries to /usr/bin ?

2011-11-01 Thread Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
On 11-11-01 05:26 PM, Matt Alexander wrote:
> Interesting proposed change for the location of binaries in Fedora:
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Fedora-considers-moving-all-binaries-to-usr-bin-1369642.html
> 
> Would Ubuntu consider doing the same?

There were some discussion about this at UDS yesterday during the
session about dropping initrd images for systems that don't need them.

>From what I understand it requires quite a bit of kludging in Fedora
already, in Ubuntu it could cause even further problems considering that
it could break things since Debian doesn't do this.

Since it was accepted that the initrd can be dropped for systems that
don't need it if it can be implemented in time for Oneiric, it makes it
even less likely that moving the binaries will be implemented.

-Jonathan

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Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread Martin Pitt 
nick rundy [2011-11-01 15:01 -0400]:
> I came to ubuntu from Windows. And one thing Windows does well is make it 
> easy to find an executable file (i.e., it's in C:\Program Files\)

In fact, Windows makes that really hard, as there is no standard
location for binaries. Each application ships its executables in its
own directory.

> Finding an executable file in Ubuntu is frustrating & lacks
> organization that makes sense to users.

I doubt that many users actually care, and those wo do can use
"which". Also. all binaries a user is actually concerned with are in
/usr/bin (i. e. the ones you'd call to open documents with).

> Here's a link to an article that talks about Fedora's idea:
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Fedora-considers-moving-all-binaries-to-usr-bin-1369642.html?view=print
>  

That would mean that we need to drop the possibility to have /usr on a
separate partition/network file system, or make the initramfs
clever/complicated enough to actually wait for /usr to come up.

Also, the separation of /sbin and /usr/sbin is not just totally
random; for non-admin users it makes them not appear in tab completion
etc, which cleans up the command namespace a bit.

Martin

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Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)

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Moving all binaries to /usr/bin ?

2011-11-01 Thread Matt Alexander 
Interesting proposed change for the location of binaries in Fedora:
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Fedora-considers-moving-all-binaries-to-usr-bin-1369642.html

Would Ubuntu consider doing the same?
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Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread Dan Trevino 
I'm not sure I agree that windows makes it easy to find executables.
They have the same situation with "system" binaries in different
places (/windows, /windows/system, /windows/system32, x64 vs i386 in
different places, etc, etc. and even less justification for those
choices.  Regardless, what windows does or does not do is irrelevant,
as is windows (sry ... couldn't resist).

FHS work is constantly being discussed.  If you feel you can make a
contribution, please:
http://wiki.debian.org/FilesystemHierarchyStandard

Dan
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On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:01 PM, nick rundy  wrote:
> I came to ubuntu from Windows. And one thing Windows does well is make it
> easy to find an executable file (i.e., it's in C:\Program Files\). Finding
> an executable file in Ubuntu is frustrating & lacks organization that makes
> sense to users. Fedora is considering a fix for this issue. I think Ubuntu
> should do the same.
>
> Here's a link to an article that talks about Fedora's idea:
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Fedora-considers-moving-all-binaries-to-usr-bin-1369642.html?view=print
>
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RE: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread nick rundy 

There are several situations where I need to find an executable. One that comes 
immediately to mind is when I need to specify what program to use to open an 
online stream and the program I want is not appearing in an offered list. So I 
need to go find the .exe. At least this is how I have always gone about solving 
this problem. I have tried using the $which command but this rarely works for 
me. The $which command often can't find the exe because the exe has been placed 
somewhere else (hence why putting all this stuff in one place is a good idea).

> From: jonat...@starlingcottage.co.uk
> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:46:37 +
> Subject: Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/
> To: nru...@hotmail.com
> 
> On 1 November 2011 19:01, nick rundy  wrote:
> > I came to ubuntu from Windows. And one thing Windows does well is make it
> > easy to find an executable file (i.e., it's in C:\Program Files\). Finding
> > an executable file in Ubuntu is frustrating & lacks organization that makes
> > sense to users. Fedora is considering a fix for this issue. I think Ubuntu
> > should do the same.
> >
> > Here's a link to an article that talks about Fedora's idea:
> > http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Fedora-considers-moving-all-binaries-to-usr-bin-1369642.html?view=print
> >
> 
> Why do you want to "find" an executable? If you want to run it, just
> type it. If you want to know where it is (for whatever reason, not
> sure why if it's on the $PATH) then type $ which $command, e.g. $
> which bash -> /usr/bin/bash
> 
> Jonathon
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RE: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread nick rundy 

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Fedora-considers-moving-all-binaries-to-usr-bin-1369642.html

Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:08:27 +0100
Subject: Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/
From: gregor.shap...@gmail.com
To: nru...@hotmail.com

The Link to the deviant article returned a 404
On Nov 1, 2011 8:02 PM, "nick rundy"  wrote:






I came to ubuntu from Windows. And one thing Windows does well is make it easy 
to find an executable file (i.e., it's in C:\Program Files\). Finding an 
executable file in Ubuntu is frustrating & lacks organization that makes sense 
to users. Fedora is considering a fix for this issue. I think Ubuntu should do 
the same.


Here's a link to an article that talks about Fedora's idea: 
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Fedora-considers-moving-all-binaries-to-usr-bin-1369642.html?view=print
 

  

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Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread J Fernyhough 
On 1 November 2011 19:01, nick rundy  wrote:
> I came to ubuntu from Windows. And one thing Windows does well is make it
> easy to find an executable file (i.e., it's in C:\Program Files\). Finding
> an executable file in Ubuntu is frustrating & lacks organization that makes
> sense to users. Fedora is considering a fix for this issue. I think Ubuntu
> should do the same.
>
> Here's a link to an article that talks about Fedora's idea:
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Fedora-considers-moving-all-binaries-to-usr-bin-1369642.html?view=print
>

Why do you want to "find" an executable? If you want to run it, just
type it. If you want to know where it is (for whatever reason, not
sure why if it's on the $PATH) then type $ which $command, e.g. $
which bash -> /usr/bin/bash

Jonathon

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Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals 
Hi,

2011/11/1 nick rundy :
> And one thing Windows does well is make it
> easy to find an executable file (i.e., it's in C:\Program Files\).

This is a joke, right?

> Finding
> an executable file in Ubuntu is frustrating & lacks organization that makes
> sense to users.

You may find the "whereis" command useful. Eg.,
|   $ whereis gedit
|   gedit: /usr/bin/gedit /usr/lib/gedit /usr/share/gedit
/usr/share/man/man1/gedit.1.gz

Most (99.99%) binaries should be in /usr/bin. Some core binaries are
in /bin (for technical reasons) and some system administration
binaries may be in /sbin (for historical reasons). I'd be happy about
an unification here, but as you can see it's not a trivial matter.

In case you installed some application manually, it may be in
/usr/local/bin or somewhere in /opt. This is so you can separate
distribution stuff from other random stuff.

Hope this helps,

-- 
Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT)
Free Software Developer

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Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread Allison Randal 
On 11/01/2011 03:20 PM, Cosme Domínguez wrote:
> 
> But it requires a lot of work that I think should start first in Debian.

And, is already being discussed in Debian (lengthy thread):

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2011/10/msg00157.html

Allison

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Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread Alexander Etter 

On Nov 1, 2011, at 15:01, nick rundy  wrote:

> I came to ubuntu from Windows. And one thing Windows does well is make it 
> easy to find an executable file (i.e., it's in C:\Program Files\). Finding an 
> executable file in Ubuntu is frustrating & lacks organization that makes 
> sense to users. Fedora is considering a fix for this issue. I think Ubuntu 
> should do the same.
> 
> Here's a link to an article that talks about Fedora's idea: 
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Fedora-considers-moving-all-binaries-to-usr-bin-1369642.html?view=print
>  
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Hi, learn about file permissions. In a terminal, cd to the directory you are 
looking for an executable, then use ls. Try man ls for more info, but ls -l ( l 
as in lamba) will show what is executable and lots of other info. 
Let me know if/ how it works out. 
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Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread Cosme Domínguez 
I think that's a good idea.

But it requires a lot of work that I think should start first in Debian.

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Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/

2011-11-01 Thread nick rundy 

I came to ubuntu from Windows. And one thing Windows does well is make it easy 
to find an executable file (i.e., it's in C:\Program Files\). Finding an 
executable file in Ubuntu is frustrating & lacks organization that makes sense 
to users. Fedora is considering a fix for this issue. I think Ubuntu should do 
the same.

Here's a link to an article that talks about Fedora's idea: 
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Fedora-considers-moving-all-binaries-to-usr-bin-1369642.html?view=print
 
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