RE: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Roarty, Francis X]

Axil, Langmuir was aware of this anomaly and advised not to pursue it when he 
developed atomic welding with tungsten electrodes.. some will insist it is the 
energy of recombination but if so then welding would not be a constant flow and 
one would have to continually stop, build up a reservoir of atomic hydrogen 
[which opposes retaining that state] and then weld a little bit to exhaust the 
recombination energy in a very short burst to exploit the stored energy enough 
to melt tungsten. Since atomic welding is a smooth process and the electrical 
energy employed by the arc is not to my knowledge significant enough to account 
for the melting capability then yes.. your point is well taken.
Fran
From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 11:11 PM
To: vortex-l
Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR


Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of 
your hand.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM



The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like 
nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a 
shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science 
that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics.



The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) 
and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole.



The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity.  This 
keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy 
builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten.



The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. 
The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin 
and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the 
HHO flame.



This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and 
focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is 
beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F)



On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with 
oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24


On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the 
evanescent wave.


So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Axil Axil]

In HHO welding, there is no electric current employed. HHO welding is just
the burning of hydrogen in oxygen.


But how does a hydrogen combustion process that produces only 2,660 °C in
heat vaporize tungsten at  (5930 °C, 10706 °F).

This does not add up unless there is LENR involved.


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Roarty, Francis X <
francis.x.roa...@lmco.com> wrote:

>  Axil, Langmuir was aware of this anomaly and advised not to pursue it
> when he developed atomic welding with tungsten electrodes.. some will
> insist it is the energy of recombination but if so then welding would not
> be a constant flow and one would have to continually stop, build up a
> reservoir of atomic hydrogen [which opposes retaining that state] and then
> weld a little bit to exhaust the recombination energy in a very short burst
> to exploit the stored energy enough to melt tungsten. Since atomic welding
> is a smooth process and the electrical energy employed by the arc is not to
> my knowledge significant enough to account for the melting capability then
> yes.. your point is well taken.
>
> Fran
>
> *From:* Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, March 17, 2014 11:11 PM
> *To:* vortex-l
> *Subject:* EXTERNAL: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
>
>
>
> Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the
> skin of your hand.
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM
>
>
>
> The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act
> like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer
> between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen.
> The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics.
>
>
>
> The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark
> mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole.
>
>
>
> The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity.
> This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat
> energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize
> tungsten.
>
>
>
> The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not
> shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of
> your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily
> burned by the HHO flame.
>
>
>
> This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and
> focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR
> effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C,
> 10706 °F)
>
>
>
> On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C
> with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further?
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24
>
>
>
> On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the
> evanescent wave.
>
>
>
> So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Lennart Thornros]

Axil,
I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory.
I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in autos.
It has never taken any commercial format.
I have a few questions though:
1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be logical
that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an
instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and
therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works?
2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher
temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the
exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it
comes to COP.
3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible as
it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that
correct?
I am OK with a lesson in basics:)

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

"Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM


On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

>  Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the
> skin of your hand.
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM
>
>
>
> The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act
> like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer
> between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen.
> The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics.
>
>
>
> The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark
> mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole.
>
>
>
> The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity.
> This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat
> energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize
> tungsten.
>
>
>
> The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not
> shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of
> your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily
> burned by the HHO flame.
>
>
>
> This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and
> focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR
> effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C,
> 10706 °F)
>
>
>
> On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C
> with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further?
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24
>
>
> On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the
> evanescent wave.
>
> So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Edmund Storms]

Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high 
temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is highly 
concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs.  In the 
case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied directly to 
the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin feels no heat 
because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin. 

This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces a 
reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced by heating 
the gas.  In contrast, gasoline produces a large increase on gas volume, which 
is used to move the piston.  

However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline combustion. 
 More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied over the years, 
thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient. However, I have seen 
no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way.  Even if it could, the heat 
energy would not be suitable to add much extra push to the piston before the 
heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent increase in gas volume, not 
just a temporary increase cause by increased temperature.

Ed Storms
On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote:

> Axil,
> I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory.
> I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in autos. It 
> has never taken any commercial format. 
> I have a few questions though:
> 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be logical 
> that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an 
> instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and 
> therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works? 
> 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher 
> temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the 
> exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it 
> comes to COP.
> 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible as it 
> at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that correct?
> I am OK with a lesson in basics:) 
> 
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
> 
> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com 
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
> 
> “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment 
> to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
> Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin 
> of your hand.
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM
>  
> The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like 
> nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a 
> shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science 
> that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics.
>  
> The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) 
> and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole.
>  
> The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity.  
> This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat 
> energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize 
> tungsten.
>  
> The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. 
> The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin 
> and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by 
> the HHO flame.
>  
> This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and 
> focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect 
> is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F)
>  
> On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C 
> with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further?
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24
>  
> On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the 
> evanescent wave.
> 
> So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
>  
>  
> 

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[AlanG]

I don't think the tungsten is vaporizing - at least there's no evidence 
that supports that contention. In the example video, the surface of the 
rod appears to be melted, so the flame must be at least 3500 C, higher 
than produced by H2+O combustion. There's enough velocity in the flame 
to blow the melted surface layer off the rod in small droplets, which 
might oxidise when they leave the reducing part of the flame. This 
process progressively continues to thin the rod until it breaks.


So the real question raised here is how monatomic hydrogen is created in 
the system. It's called "HHO" but the simple electrolysis process as 
used in typical "HHO" generators would yield 2H2O -> 2H2 + O2.  So how 
does it instead give 2H2O -> 4H1 +O2 ?


It doesn't seem likely a H2+O flame by itself could disassociate 
unburned H2, because H2 splitting is highly endothermic. In the Langmuir 
process the needed energy comes from the electric arc. I suppose there 
could be plasma fusion somewhere in the flame. It would be nice to check 
one of these torches for gammas.


AlanG


On 3/18/2014 8:39 AM, Axil Axil wrote:
In HHO welding, there is no electric current employed. HHO welding is 
just the burning of hydrogen in oxygen.



But how does a hydrogen combustion process that produces only 2,660 °C 
in heat vaporize tungsten at  (5930 °C, 10706 °F).


This does not add up unless there is LENR involved.


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Roarty, Francis X 
mailto:francis.x.roa...@lmco.com>> wrote:


Axil, Langmuir was aware of this anomaly and advised not to pursue
it when he developed atomic welding with tungsten electrodes..
some will insist it is the energy of recombination but if so then
welding would not be a constant flow and one would have to
continually stop, build up a reservoir of atomic hydrogen [which
opposes retaining that state] and then weld a little bit to
exhaust the recombination energy in a very short burst to exploit
the stored energy enough to melt tungsten. Since atomic welding is
a smooth process and the electrical energy employed by the arc is
not to my knowledge significant enough to account for the melting
capability then yes.. your point is well taken.

Fran

*From:*Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com
]
*Sent:* Monday, March 17, 2014 11:11 PM
*To:* vortex-l
*Subject:* EXTERNAL: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn
the skin of your hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM

The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These
crystals act like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in
the boundary layer between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric
gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science that studies this effect
is called nanoplasmonics.

The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA
dark mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole.

The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of
reflectivity.  This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface.
In this way the heat energy builds up to huge temperatures to the
point where it will vaporize tungsten.

The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is
not shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to
the surface of your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So
you will not be readily burned by the HHO flame.

This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy
concentration and focusing. This indicates that the upper
temperature limit of the LENR effect is beyond the temperature
required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F)

On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only
2,660 °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24

On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR
effect of the evanescent wave.

So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[James Bowery]

The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone
who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue
collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring
or heating and air conditioning.


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:

> Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high
> temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is
> highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs.
>  In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied
> directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin
> feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin.
>
> This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces
> a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced by
> heating the gas.  In contrast, gasoline produces a large increase on gas
> volume, which is used to move the piston.
>
> However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline
> combustion.  More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied
> over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient.
> However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way.  Even
> if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push
> to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent
> increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased
> temperature.
>
> Ed Storms
>
> On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote:
>
> Axil,
> I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory.
> I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in autos.
> It has never taken any commercial format.
> I have a few questions though:
> 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be
> logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an
> instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and
> therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works?
> 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher
> temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the
> exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it
> comes to COP.
> 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible as
> it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that
> correct?
> I am OK with a lesson in basics:)
>
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
>
> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>
> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
>>  Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the
>> skin of your hand.
>>
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM
>>
>>
>> The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act
>> like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer
>> between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen.
>> The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics.
>>
>>
>> The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark
>> mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole.
>>
>>
>> The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity.
>> This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat
>> energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize
>> tungsten.
>>
>>
>> The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not
>> shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of
>> your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily
>> burned by the HHO flame.
>>
>>
>> This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave -
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration
>> and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR
>> effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C,
>> 10706 °F)
>>
>>
>> On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660
>> °C with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further?
>>
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24
>>
>>
>> On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of
>> the evanescent wave.
>>
>> So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Lennart Thornros]

Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker in
the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not know
what you mean with "incommensurable quantities". Are you just supporting Ed
Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand that,
it seems without connection to anything.
 However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and has
learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think I
am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful
thinking or in worst case scam.
Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now more or
less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks.

To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My thinking
was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80 -90% due
to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR result which
you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so to compensate
for the losses due to energy losses when converting the energy both to the
loop back and to consumption.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

"Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery  wrote:

> The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone
> who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue
> collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring
> or heating and air conditioning.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>> Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high
>> temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is
>> highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs.
>>  In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied
>> directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin
>> feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin.
>>
>> This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction
>> produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases
>> produced by heating the gas.  In contrast, gasoline produces a large
>> increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston.
>>
>> However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline
>> combustion.  More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied
>> over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient.
>> However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way.  Even
>> if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push
>> to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent
>> increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased
>> temperature.
>>
>> Ed Storms
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote:
>>
>> Axil,
>> I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory.
>> I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in
>> autos. It has never taken any commercial format.
>> I have a few questions though:
>> 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be
>> logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an
>> instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and
>> therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works?
>> 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher
>> temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the
>> exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it
>> comes to COP.
>> 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible
>> as it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that
>> correct?
>> I am OK with a lesson in basics:)
>>
>> Best Regards ,
>> Lennart Thornros
>>
>> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
>> lenn...@thornros.com
>> +1 916 436 1899
>> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>>
>> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
>> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>>
>>>  Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the
>>> skin of your hand.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM
>>>
>>>
>>> The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act
>>> like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer
>>> between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen.
>>> The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics.
>>>
>>>
>>> The heat energy is confined to the meta

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Axil Axil]

What causes HHO explosive/implosive reaction is the same mechanism the
makes the Papp engine function. In fact, Papp's first patent for his engine
was a "closed" HHO engine, where water never exited the piston. What is
commonly understood today as a HHO engine is an open engine design, where
water in the form of HHO is continually fed into the engine.

In the experiments conducted by Russ on the Papp engine (the Popper), the
Plasma both expanded and then contracted with considerable force.

This is a result of the way nano crystals explode and then reform under the
influence of pulsed Extreme Ultraviolet (EUV) radiation.

Papp used HHO to blow a hole into the floor of the desert where he ripped
apart a .75 inch thick stainless steel pipe. R.Mills now says the "nascent
water" powers his latest invention where a huge explosion of water
catalyzed by his magic dust takes place.





On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Edmund Storms wrote:

> Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high
> temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is
> highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs.
>  In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied
> directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin
> feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin.
>
> This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction produces
> a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases produced by
> heating the gas.  In contrast, gasoline produces a large increase on gas
> volume, which is used to move the piston.
>
> However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline
> combustion.  More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied
> over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient.
> However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way.  Even
> if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push
> to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent
> increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased
> temperature.
>
> Ed Storms
>
> On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote:
>
> Axil,
> I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory.
> I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in autos.
> It has never taken any commercial format.
> I have a few questions though:
> 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be
> logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an
> instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and
> therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works?
> 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher
> temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the
> exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it
> comes to COP.
> 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible as
> it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that
> correct?
> I am OK with a lesson in basics:)
>
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
>
> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>
> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
>>  Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the
>> skin of your hand.
>>
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM
>>
>>
>> The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act
>> like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer
>> between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen.
>> The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics.
>>
>>
>> The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark
>> mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole.
>>
>>
>> The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity.
>> This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat
>> energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize
>> tungsten.
>>
>>
>> The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not
>> shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of
>> your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily
>> burned by the HHO flame.
>>
>>
>> This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave -
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration
>> and focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR
>> effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C,
>> 10706 °F)
>>
>>
>> 

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[James Bowery]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros wrote:

> Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker in
> the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not know
> what you mean with "incommensurable quantities". Are you just supporting
> Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand
> that, it seems without connection to anything.
>  However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and has
> learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think I
> am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful
> thinking or in worst case scam.
> Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now more
> or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks.
>
> To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My
> thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80
> -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR
> result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so
> to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the
> energy both to the loop back and to consumption.
>
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
>
> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>
> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery  wrote:
>
>> The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone
>> who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue
>> collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring
>> or heating and air conditioning.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:
>>
>>> Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high
>>> temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is
>>> highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs.
>>>  In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied
>>> directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin
>>> feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin.
>>>
>>> This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction
>>> produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases
>>> produced by heating the gas.  In contrast, gasoline produces a large
>>> increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston.
>>>
>>> However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline
>>> combustion.  More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied
>>> over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient.
>>> However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way.  Even
>>> if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push
>>> to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent
>>> increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased
>>> temperature.
>>>
>>> Ed Storms
>>>
>>> On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote:
>>>
>>> Axil,
>>> I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory.
>>> I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in
>>> autos. It has never taken any commercial format.
>>> I have a few questions though:
>>> 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be
>>> logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in an
>>> instantaneously increased pressure due to HHO increases the temperature and
>>> therefore the pressure (compression). Is that how it works?
>>> 2. Is it not true that if we can produce any 'heat motor' with higher
>>> temperature we will increase COP? At 6,000 C temperature and 20C on the
>>> exhaust a heat motor should be competitive with an electrical motor when it
>>> comes to COP.
>>> 3. If 1 and 2 is correct then a LENR process at COP 2 would be feasible
>>> as it at least will have excess energy after feeding its own input. Is that
>>> correct?
>>> I am OK with a lesson in basics:)
>>>
>>> Best Regards ,
>>> Lennart Thornros
>>>
>>> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
>>> lenn...@thornros.com
>>> +1 916 436 1899
>>> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>>>
>>> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
>>> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>>>
  Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn
 the skin of your hand.


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM


 The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act
 like na

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Lennart Thornros]

Thanks James,
I can use the thesaurus if the word was hard. I could not understand the
way you used it.
I think the quantities are comparable. They can be measured in any pressure
r volume dimension as far as I am concerned.
What I did not understand was what you are comparing. I did not mean to
compare anything. Did I ?
I take it as if you just supported Ed Storms post. I understand he is
saying that it is a chemical (catalytic) action in the welding example.
I have no experience of HHO and therefore I supposed that if there was
enough heat capacity in the gas (HHO) to heat the metal it should be enough
to heat the relatively small amount of gas (with a much smaller heat
capacity than metal). Yes, that might be ignorant but it is not a very
'high ceiling' if you have problem overseeing that kind of ignorance.


Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

"Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:19 AM, James Bowery  wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros 
> wrote:
>
>> Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker in
>> the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not know
>> what you mean with "incommensurable quantities". Are you just supporting
>> Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand
>> that, it seems without connection to anything.
>>  However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and
>> has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think
>> I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful
>> thinking or in worst case scam.
>> Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now more
>> or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks.
>>
>> To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My
>> thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80
>> -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR
>> result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so
>> to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the
>> energy both to the loop back and to consumption.
>>
>> Best Regards ,
>> Lennart Thornros
>>
>> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
>> lenn...@thornros.com
>> +1 916 436 1899
>> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>>
>> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
>> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery  wrote:
>>
>>> The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in someone
>>> who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a blue
>>> collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical wiring
>>> or heating and air conditioning.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high
 temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is
 highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric arcs.
  In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is applied
 directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The skin
 feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin.

 This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction
 produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases
 produced by heating the gas.  In contrast, gasoline produces a large
 increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston.

 However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline
 combustion.  More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been applied
 over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient.
 However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way.  Even
 if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push
 to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a permanent
 increase in gas volume, not just a temporary increase cause by increased
 temperature.

 Ed Storms

 On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Lennart Thornros wrote:

 Axil,
 I admit total ignorance of the HHO theory.
 I have heard about people saying they can reduce gas consumption in
 autos. It has never taken any commercial format.
 I have a few questions though:
 1. If HHO produce this high temperature, then it sounds to me to be
 logical that it saves gas in an Otto motor. The gasoline will explode in

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[David Roberson]

Is it possible that some of the tungsten is burning instead of melting?  A 
cutting torch actually burns the steel by adding excess oxygen to the region.

Dave

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Axil Axil 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Tue, Mar 18, 2014 11:40 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR



In HHO welding, there is no electric current employed. HHO welding is just the 
burning of hydrogen in oxygen.




But how does a hydrogen combustion process that produces only 2,660 °C in heat 
vaporize tungsten at  (5930 °C, 10706 °F).


This does not add up unless there is LENR involved.




On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Roarty, Francis X  
wrote:


Axil, Langmuir was aware of this anomaly and advised not to pursue it when he 
developed atomic welding with tungsten electrodes.. some will insist it is the 
energy of recombination but if so then welding would not be a constant flow and 
one would have to continually stop, build up a reservoir of atomic hydrogen 
[which opposes retaining that state] and then weld a little bit to exhaust the 
recombination energy in a very short burst to exploit the stored energy enough 
to melt tungsten. Since atomic welding is a smooth process and the electrical 
energy employed by the arc is not to my knowledge significant enough to account 
for the melting capability then yes.. your point is well taken.
Fran
From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 11:11 PM
To: vortex-l
Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

 

Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin of 
your hand.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM
 
The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like 
nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a 
shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science 
that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics.
 
The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) 
and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole.
 
The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity.  This 
keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat energy 
builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize tungsten.
 
The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. 
The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin 
and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by the 
HHO flame. 
 
This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave 
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and 
focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect is 
beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F)
 
On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C with 
oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24
 

On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the 
evanescent wave.

 

So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
 
 

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Edmund Storms]

That is right, Dave. Tungsten oxide is volatile and will vaporize at much lower 
temperatures than pure tungsten, which makes tungsten look as if it is 
valorizing.  

In addition, the quoted max. temperature for H2-O2 combustion is for the 
temperature of the flame. This is not the maximum possible temperature. If the 
energy is released on the surface of the W, the temperature could get much 
higher. 

Ed Storms
On Mar 18, 2014, at 12:26 PM, David Roberson wrote:

> Is it possible that some of the tungsten is burning instead of melting?  A 
> cutting torch actually burns the steel by adding excess oxygen to the region.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Axil Axil 
> To: vortex-l 
> Sent: Tue, Mar 18, 2014 11:40 am
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
> 
> In HHO welding, there is no electric current employed. HHO welding is just 
> the burning of hydrogen in oxygen.
> 
> 
> But how does a hydrogen combustion process that produces only 2,660 °C in 
> heat vaporize tungsten at  (5930 °C, 10706 °F).
> 
> This does not add up unless there is LENR involved.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Roarty, Francis X 
>  wrote:
> Axil, Langmuir was aware of this anomaly and advised not to pursue it when he 
> developed atomic welding with tungsten electrodes.. some will insist it is 
> the energy of recombination but if so then welding would not be a constant 
> flow and one would have to continually stop, build up a reservoir of atomic 
> hydrogen [which opposes retaining that state] and then weld a little bit to 
> exhaust the recombination energy in a very short burst to exploit the stored 
> energy enough to melt tungsten. Since atomic welding is a smooth process and 
> the electrical energy employed by the arc is not to my knowledge significant 
> enough to account for the melting capability then yes.. your point is well 
> taken.
> Fran
> From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 11:11 PM
> To: vortex-l
> Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR
>  
> Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin 
> of your hand.
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM
>  
> The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act like 
> nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer between a 
> shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen. The science 
> that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics.
>  
> The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark mode) 
> and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole.
>  
> The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity.  
> This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat 
> energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize 
> tungsten.
>  
> The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not shiny. 
> The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of your skin 
> and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily burned by 
> the HHO flame.
>  
> This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave - 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and 
> focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR effect 
> is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C, 10706 °F)
>  
> On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C 
> with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further?
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24
>  
> On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the 
> evanescent wave.
>  
> So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
>  
>  
> 

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[James Bowery]

Lennart, my comment wasn't directed at you but at Axil's question:  "Do I
need to spell this out any further?" After giving temperature numbers as
though they represented energy or power.  I tend to dismiss Axil's
asserted-as-fact speculations posing as theory, if for no other reason than
their tone -- but this takes the cake.


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Lennart Thornros wrote:

> Thanks James,
> I can use the thesaurus if the word was hard. I could not understand the
> way you used it.
> I think the quantities are comparable. They can be measured in any
> pressure r volume dimension as far as I am concerned.
> What I did not understand was what you are comparing. I did not mean to
> compare anything. Did I ?
> I take it as if you just supported Ed Storms post. I understand he is
> saying that it is a chemical (catalytic) action in the welding example.
> I have no experience of HHO and therefore I supposed that if there was
> enough heat capacity in the gas (HHO) to heat the metal it should be enough
> to heat the relatively small amount of gas (with a much smaller heat
> capacity than metal). Yes, that might be ignorant but it is not a very
> 'high ceiling' if you have problem overseeing that kind of ignorance.
>
>
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
>
> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>
> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:19 AM, James Bowery  wrote:
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker in
>>> the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not know
>>> what you mean with "incommensurable quantities". Are you just
>>> supporting Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did
>>> understand that, it seems without connection to anything.
>>>  However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and
>>> has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think
>>> I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful
>>> thinking or in worst case scam.
>>> Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now more
>>> or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks.
>>>
>>> To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My
>>> thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80
>>> -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR
>>> result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so
>>> to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the
>>> energy both to the loop back and to consumption.
>>>
>>> Best Regards ,
>>> Lennart Thornros
>>>
>>> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
>>> lenn...@thornros.com
>>> +1 916 436 1899
>>> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>>>
>>> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
>>> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery wrote:
>>>
 The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in
 someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a
 blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical
 wiring or heating and air conditioning.


 On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms 
 wrote:

> Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high
> temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is
> highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric 
> arcs.
>  In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is 
> applied
> directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The 
> skin
> feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin.
>
> This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction
> produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases
> produced by heating the gas.  In contrast, gasoline produces a large
> increase on gas volume, which is used to move the piston.
>
> However, use of such a gas might improve the efficiency of gasoline
> combustion.  More convenient ways exist to do this, which have been 
> applied
> over the years, thereby making the gasoline engine increasingly efficient.
> However, I have seen no evidence that LENR can be initiated this way.  
> Even
> if it could, the heat energy would not be suitable to add much extra push
> to the piston before the heat was dissipated. The process needs a 
> permanent
> i

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Lennart Thornros]

James
Ok I am not so sensitive so it is OK- but felt uncalled for as I preempted
my weakness:)
Hard to follow if you do not say to whom.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

"Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:39 PM, James Bowery  wrote:

> Lennart, my comment wasn't directed at you but at Axil's question:  "Do I
> need to spell this out any further?" After giving temperature numbers as
> though they represented energy or power.  I tend to dismiss Axil's
> asserted-as-fact speculations posing as theory, if for no other reason than
> their tone -- but this takes the cake.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Lennart Thornros wrote:
>
>> Thanks James,
>> I can use the thesaurus if the word was hard. I could not understand the
>> way you used it.
>> I think the quantities are comparable. They can be measured in any
>> pressure r volume dimension as far as I am concerned.
>> What I did not understand was what you are comparing. I did not mean to
>> compare anything. Did I ?
>> I take it as if you just supported Ed Storms post. I understand he is
>> saying that it is a chemical (catalytic) action in the welding example.
>> I have no experience of HHO and therefore I supposed that if there was
>> enough heat capacity in the gas (HHO) to heat the metal it should be enough
>> to heat the relatively small amount of gas (with a much smaller heat
>> capacity than metal). Yes, that might be ignorant but it is not a very
>> 'high ceiling' if you have problem overseeing that kind of ignorance.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards ,
>> Lennart Thornros
>>
>> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
>> lenn...@thornros.com
>> +1 916 436 1899
>> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>>
>> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
>> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:19 AM, James Bowery wrote:
>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros >> > wrote:
>>>
 Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker
 in the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not
 know what you mean with "incommensurable quantities". Are you just
 supporting Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did
 understand that, it seems without connection to anything.
  However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and
 has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I think
 I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful
 thinking or in worst case scam.
 Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now
 more or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks.

 To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My
 thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 80
 -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR
 result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so
 to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the
 energy both to the loop back and to consumption.

 Best Regards ,
 Lennart Thornros

 www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
 lenn...@thornros.com
 +1 916 436 1899
 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

 "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
 commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort."
 PJM


 On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery wrote:

> The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in
> someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a
> blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical
> wiring or heating and air conditioning.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms  > wrote:
>
>> Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high
>> temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is
>> highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric 
>> arcs.
>>  In the case of HHO, the chemical energy released when H2O forms is 
>> applied
>> directly to the material where it is released by catalytic action. The 
>> skin
>> feels no heat because the reaction is not catalyzed by the skin.
>>
>> This gas would make a poor fuel in an engine because the reaction
>> produces a reduction in volume of gas, with only a temporary increases
>> produced by heating the gas.  In contrast, gasoline p

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[James Bowery]

Well there have been other recent examples from very "authoritative"
sources:

https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg88835.html

So I felt a general comment was in order.


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Lennart Thornros wrote:

> James
> Ok I am not so sensitive so it is OK- but felt uncalled for as I preempted
> my weakness:)
> Hard to follow if you do not say to whom.
>
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
>
> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>
> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:39 PM, James Bowery  wrote:
>
>> Lennart, my comment wasn't directed at you but at Axil's question:  "Do I
>> need to spell this out any further?" After giving temperature numbers as
>> though they represented energy or power.  I tend to dismiss Axil's
>> asserted-as-fact speculations posing as theory, if for no other reason than
>> their tone -- but this takes the cake.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Lennart Thornros 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks James,
>>> I can use the thesaurus if the word was hard. I could not understand the
>>> way you used it.
>>> I think the quantities are comparable. They can be measured in any
>>> pressure r volume dimension as far as I am concerned.
>>> What I did not understand was what you are comparing. I did not mean to
>>> compare anything. Did I ?
>>> I take it as if you just supported Ed Storms post. I understand he is
>>> saying that it is a chemical (catalytic) action in the welding example.
>>> I have no experience of HHO and therefore I supposed that if there was
>>> enough heat capacity in the gas (HHO) to heat the metal it should be enough
>>> to heat the relatively small amount of gas (with a much smaller heat
>>> capacity than metal). Yes, that might be ignorant but it is not a very
>>> 'high ceiling' if you have problem overseeing that kind of ignorance.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards ,
>>> Lennart Thornros
>>>
>>> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
>>> lenn...@thornros.com
>>> +1 916 436 1899
>>> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>>>
>>> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
>>> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:19 AM, James Bowery wrote:
>>>
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability


 On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros <
 lenn...@thornros.com> wrote:

> Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker
> in the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not
> know what you mean with "incommensurable quantities". Are you just
> supporting Ed Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did
> understand that, it seems without connection to anything.
>  However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and
> has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I 
> think
> I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful
> thinking or in worst case scam.
> Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now
> more or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks.
>
> To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My
> thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 
> 80
> -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR
> result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or so
> to compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the
> energy both to the loop back and to consumption.
>
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
>
> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>
> "Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort."
> PJM
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery wrote:
>
>> The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in
>> someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a
>> blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electrical
>> wiring or heating and air conditioning.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Edmund Storms <
>> stor...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Confusion seems to exist between energy and temperature. A very high
>>> temperature can be produced using very little energy if the energy is
>>> highly concentrated. This is done regularly using lasers and electric 
>>> arcs.
>>>  In the case of HHO, the chemi

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Brad Lowe]

Here is an ORNL report from 1952 about heat released by HHO through a
catalytic converter:

http://web.ornl.gov/info/reports/1952/3445603529607.pdf

Title is: The Reaction Between Hydrogen and Oxygen by Catalysis and
the Thermal Reaction

- Brad



On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 2:50 PM, James Bowery  wrote:
> Well there have been other recent examples from very "authoritative"
> sources:
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg88835.html
>
> So I felt a general comment was in order.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Lennart Thornros 
> wrote:
>>
>> James
>> Ok I am not so sensitive so it is OK- but felt uncalled for as I preempted
>> my weakness:)
>> Hard to follow if you do not say to whom.
>>
>> Best Regards ,
>> Lennart Thornros
>>
>> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
>> lenn...@thornros.com
>> +1 916 436 1899
>> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>>
>> “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
>> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:39 PM, James Bowery  wrote:
>>>
>>> Lennart, my comment wasn't directed at you but at Axil's question:  "Do I
>>> need to spell this out any further?" After giving temperature numbers as
>>> though they represented energy or power.  I tend to dismiss Axil's
>>> asserted-as-fact speculations posing as theory, if for no other reason than
>>> their tone -- but this takes the cake.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:22 PM, Lennart Thornros 
>>> wrote:

 Thanks James,
 I can use the thesaurus if the word was hard. I could not understand the
 way you used it.
 I think the quantities are comparable. They can be measured in any
 pressure r volume dimension as far as I am concerned.
 What I did not understand was what you are comparing. I did not mean to
 compare anything. Did I ?
 I take it as if you just supported Ed Storms post. I understand he is
 saying that it is a chemical (catalytic) action in the welding example.
 I have no experience of HHO and therefore I supposed that if there was
 enough heat capacity in the gas (HHO) to heat the metal it should be enough
 to heat the relatively small amount of gas (with a much smaller heat
 capacity than metal). Yes, that might be ignorant but it is not a very 
 'high
 ceiling' if you have problem overseeing that kind of ignorance.


 Best Regards ,
 Lennart Thornros

 www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
 lenn...@thornros.com
 +1 916 436 1899
 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
 commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM


 On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:19 AM, James Bowery 
 wrote:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_commensurability#Commensurability
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:10 PM, Lennart Thornros
>  wrote:
>>
>> Ok James I admit my ignorance, although I am not a blue collar worker
>> in the AC field. I also admit my English is less than perfect. I do not 
>> know
>> what you mean with "incommensurable quantities". Are you just supporting 
>> Ed
>> Storms statements about quantities and temperature? I did understand 
>> that,
>> it seems without connection to anything.
>>  However, I have very little experience from production of HHO gas and
>> has learnt that it does not exist because of what Alan G. explains. I 
>> think
>> I am back to my old believe that the talk about HHO gas is just wishful
>> thinking or in worst case scam.
>> Excusable or not my confusion (probably caused by ignorance) is now
>> more or less eliminated. Good enough for me - thanks.
>>
>> To Ed . I did not mean that the LENR process would be improved. My
>> thinking was that if a 'heat motor' could have very good efficiency like 
>> 80
>> -90% due to high input temperature and low (room temperature) the LENR
>> result which you explained previously need to be in a level of five or 
>> so to
>> compensate for the losses due to energy losses when converting the energy
>> both to the loop back and to consumption.
>>
>> Best Regards ,
>> Lennart Thornros
>>
>> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
>> lenn...@thornros.com
>> +1 916 436 1899
>> 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650
>>
>> “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
>> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:44 AM, James Bowery 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The confusion between incommensurable quantities is excusable in
>>> someone who doesn't know the first thing about physics but not even in a
>>> blue collar technician that works on household utilities like electr

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:

In the case of HHO ...
>

I'm not convinced that there even is an HHO distinct from H2O, although I
do get a guilty pleasure out of following some of the accounts of what it
is supposed to be able to do.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[mixent]

In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Mon, 17 Mar 2014 23:10:37 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the skin
>of your hand.

Tungsten does not vaporize. It doesn't even melt. Instead, it oxidizes in the
flame, and the oxide sublimates. I have seen this first hand.
When a piece of copper metal (e.g. copper pipe) is placed in the flame, the
copper melts and a droplet of molten copper will hang from the end.
With a tungsten rod, there is no droplet.

Note in the video that there no droplets of molten tungsten fall onto the plate
below.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Axil Axil]

What temperature does this   sublimation process occur at?


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:51 PM,  wrote:

> In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Mon, 17 Mar 2014 23:10:37 -0400:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the
> skin
> >of your hand.
>
> Tungsten does not vaporize. It doesn't even melt. Instead, it oxidizes in
> the
> flame, and the oxide sublimates. I have seen this first hand.
> When a piece of copper metal (e.g. copper pipe) is placed in the flame, the
> copper melts and a droplet of molten copper will hang from the end.
> With a tungsten rod, there is no droplet.
>
> Note in the video that there no droplets of molten tungsten fall onto the
> plate
> below.
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
>
>

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[mixent]

In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Wed, 19 Mar 2014 22:43:10 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>What temperature does this   sublimation process occur at?

WO3 sublimates at 550 ºC in air.

>
>
>On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:51 PM,  wrote:
>
>> In reply to  Axil Axil's message of Mon, 17 Mar 2014 23:10:37 -0400:
>> Hi,
>> [snip]
>> >Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the
>> skin
>> >of your hand.
>>
>> Tungsten does not vaporize. It doesn't even melt. Instead, it oxidizes in
>> the
>> flame, and the oxide sublimates. I have seen this first hand.
>> When a piece of copper metal (e.g. copper pipe) is placed in the flame, the
>> copper melts and a droplet of molten copper will hang from the end.
>> With a tungsten rod, there is no droplet.
>>
>> Note in the video that there no droplets of molten tungsten fall onto the
>> plate
>> below.
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>> http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
>>
>>
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:HHO welding is LENR

[Axil Axil]

http://www.free-energy-info.com/MorayKing.pdf

Some information on HHO from Moray King. I like the idea of isolating the
water clusters through hydrogen evaporation. Or maybe use a molecular
sleeve to trap the water clusters.

That would be a good test of the nano crystal theory when used to excite a
catalytic converter into combustion by using only nano particles and not
hydrogen.


On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 11:10 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> Why is a HHO flame able to vaporize tungsten and yet will not burn the
> skin of your hand.
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4sW3bo_dM
>
>
>
> The HHO gas stream contains solid crystals of water. These crystals act
> like nano lenses that concentrate infrared light in the boundary layer
> between a shiny metal surface and a dielectric gas like hydrogen or oxygen.
> The science that studies this effect is called nanoplasmonics.
>
>
>
> The heat energy is confined to the metal surface and locked in(AKA dark
> mode) and concentrated their like in a EMF black hole.
>
>
>
> The metal surface is said to have a negative coefficient of reflectivity.
> This keeps the heat from leaving the metal surface. In this way the heat
> energy builds up to huge temperatures to the point where it will vaporize
> tungsten.
>
>
>
> The skin on your hand has a positive index of reflectivity; it is not
> shiny. The heat from hydrogen combustion is not confined to the surface of
> your skin and can escape to the surrounding air. So you will not be readily
> burned by the HHO flame.
>
>
>
> This is a basic LENR effect (aka evanescent wave -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescent_wave) of energy concentration and
> focusing. This indicates that the upper temperature limit of the LENR
> effect is beyond the temperature required to vaporize tungsten (5930 °C,
> 10706 °F)
>
>
>
> On the other hand, the combustion temperature of hydrogen is only 2,660 °C
> with oxygen. Do I need to spell this out any further?
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24
>
>
> On the downside, spark ignition of HHO does not use the LENR effect of the
> evanescent wave.
>
> So burning hydrogen in oxygen is only combustion and not LENR.
>
>
>
>
>