Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

* Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-03-02 22:35]: > Joshua ben Jore wrote: > > Does defined( Scalar::Util::blessed )have cooties? Its the > > only predicate you've ever had that actually works. > > It requires depending on an XS module if you want compatibility > pre-5.8.1. Which is the

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

Joshua ben Jore wrote: > Does defined( Scalar::Util::blessed )have cooties? Its the only > predicate you've ever had that actually works. It requires depending on an XS module if you want compatibility pre-5.8.1. I have to worry about stuff like that.

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Friday 02 March 2007 08:27, Joshua ben Jore wrote: > Does defined( Scalar::Util::blessed )have cooties? Its the only > predicate you've ever had that actually works. Sometimes I want to detect class methods too. Y'know, at some point it's worth saying "Here's how this works. Here are the re

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On 3/2/07, Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Eirik Berg Hanssen wrote: > Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> chromatic wrote: >>> On Thursday 01 March 2007 17:46, Adam Kennedy wrote: >>> Actually, isn't UNIVERSAL::can($x, 'can') still valid? I seem to remember

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

Eirik Berg Hanssen wrote: > Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> chromatic wrote: >>> On Thursday 01 March 2007 17:46, Adam Kennedy wrote: >>> Actually, isn't UNIVERSAL::can($x, 'can') still valid? I seem to remember that at one point it was considered the only valid use of

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > chromatic wrote: >> On Thursday 01 March 2007 17:46, Adam Kennedy wrote: >> >>> Actually, isn't UNIVERSAL::can($x, 'can') still valid? I seem to >>> remember that at one point it was considered the only valid use of >>> UNVERSAL::can directly. >> >

Re: Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (wasRe: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Moin. On Friday 02 March 2007 08:53:43 demerphq wrote: > On 3/2/07, Adam Kennedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > 99.999% of the time you do not want to really know how something is > > > implemented, you want to remain ignorant. > > > > I concur, whi

Re: Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (wasRe: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

On 2 Mar 2007, at 00:35, Adam Kennedy wrote: [snip] Well, except you aren't supposed to do that, because if ->isa can be overloaded, it can also die or throw an exception. So eval { $obj->isa($class) } falsely ignores errors. [snip] That, of course, depends on whether you want to ignore err

Re: Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (wasRe: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

On Friday 02 March 2007 00:53, demerphq wrote: *snip good discussion* > Now if there was an ->implements() utility function as well as the > ->isa() funcation, then I think IO::Handle would contrive to ensure > that IO::String->new(\$string)->implements('IO::Handle') would return > true even thou

Re: Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (wasRe: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

On 3/2/07, Adam Kennedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 99.999% of the time you do not want to really know how something is > implemented, you want to remain ignorant. I concur, which is what really pisses me off them IO::String->new(\$string)->isa('IO::Handle') returns false, because the author be

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

chromatic wrote: > On Thursday 01 March 2007 17:46, Adam Kennedy wrote: > >> Actually, isn't UNIVERSAL::can($x, 'can') still valid? I seem to >> remember that at one point it was considered the only valid use of >> UNVERSAL::can directly. > > That's the only case I can think of too. Hmm, that's

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

* Adam Kennedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-03-02 03:05]: > This will hopefully clear up the Module::Build bootstrap > problem and remote the need for Module::Install altogether > (other than as syntactic sugar). Best Perl-related news I’ve seen in a while. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis //

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Thursday 01 March 2007 17:52, Adam Kennedy wrote: > As much as I dislike UNIVERSAL::, I'd FAR prefer to have it all > maintained by one person. > > That way I can submit my typically evil bugs in Test::MockObject and > have chromatic do whatever is needed across all the modules to make it > wor

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Thursday 01 March 2007 17:46, Adam Kennedy wrote: > Actually, isn't UNIVERSAL::can($x, 'can') still valid? I seem to > remember that at one point it was considered the only valid use of > UNVERSAL::can directly. That's the only case I can think of too. -- c

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

chromatic wrote: On Monday 26 February 2007 06:35, Christopher H. Laco wrote: Or me. I have a personal hate relationship with MockObject in this way. I love MockObject. I hate getting warnings about 3 party modules use of can in my test suite. Ideally those third parties would fix their buggy

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

Yuval Kogman wrote: On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 22:34:15 -0800, chromatic wrote: Why not, I already have half of the other stuff in UNIVERSAL Just don't tell Adam. As much as I dislike UNIVERSAL::, I'd FAR prefer to have it all maintained by one person. That way I can submit my typically

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

Yuval Kogman wrote: BTW, pure perl blessed() will work: sub UNIVERSAL::a_sub_not_likely_to_be_here { ref($_[0]) } sub blessed ($) { local($@, $SIG{__DIE__}, $SIG{__WARN__}); length(ref($_[0])) ? eval { $_[0]->a_sub_not_likely_to_be_here }

Re: Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (wasRe: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

Adam Kennedy wrote: >> IT SHOULD NOT BE THIS COMPLICATED TO IDENTIFY THE HERITAGE OF AN OBJECT! > > use Params::Util '_INSTANCE'; > > if ( _INSTANCE($obj, 'Whatever') ) { > > } Oh good, depend on another module to implement a basic language feature. (I appreciate your suggestion but I'm LAMENT

Re: Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (was Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

chromatic wrote: On Monday 26 February 2007 13:50, Michael G Schwern wrote: But what if isa() is broken or has side effects, hmm? That's not the caller's problem. Fix the broken code. Don't break more code trying to work around bugs. I think the problem he's refering to is that if the ca

Re: Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (wasRe: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

Michael G Schwern wrote: Yuval Kogman wrote: Likewise with ref in boolean context, I almost never want the object to be able to lie to me. But if it has to work hard to lie, then does it matter? Yeah, I'm with Yuval here. There seem to be a cold war going on here wrt identifying an object.

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On 2/25/07, Joshua ben Jore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've hated it how ref() does the wrong thing so frequently so I wrote a fix for it. I like to use mock objects to feed fake or proxy objects to other things but this breaks when things not under my control use ref() to examine the class of an

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On 26 Feb 2007, at 18:23, chromatic wrote: [snip] I'm open to a patch that allows people who know what they're doing to disable the warnings. Thank you! Adrian said he might write one. [snip] I shall. I might even do it now :) Adrian

Re: Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (was Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

Rafael Garcia-Suarez wrote: > On 26/02/07, chromatic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > Please reconsider autobox. >> >> I second this request. > > autobox in on CPAN and works. Moreover, the intent of the work on > lexical pragmas was to enable people to write their own pragmas and > put them on CPA

Re: Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (was Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

On 26/02/07, chromatic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please reconsider autobox. I second this request. autobox in on CPAN and works. Moreover, the intent of the work on lexical pragmas was to enable people to write their own pragmas and put them on CPAN. (*) So just use it. Or, maybe you were

Re: Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (was Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 13:50:58 -0800, Michael G Schwern wrote: > Please reconsider autobox. While I second that for the aforementioned reasons I have an off topic one too: That's the only way it'd get accepted. Something that devious has to be in core to pass off as safe. -- Yuval Kogman <

Re: Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (was Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

On Monday 26 February 2007 13:50, Michael G Schwern wrote: > But what if isa() is broken or has side effects, hmm? That's not the caller's problem. Fix the broken code. Don't break more code trying to work around bugs. That little mantra could have solved a whole lot of this mess. > And what

Object Identification Cold War and the return of autobox.pm (was Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane)

Yuval Kogman wrote: >> Likewise with ref in boolean context, I almost never want the object >> to be able to lie to me. > > But if it has to work hard to lie, then does it matter? Yeah, I'm with Yuval here. There seem to be a cold war going on here wrt identifying an object. In the beginning we

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Monday 26 February 2007 06:35, Christopher H. Laco wrote: > Or me. I have a personal hate relationship with MockObject in this way. > I love MockObject. I hate getting warnings about 3 party modules use of > can in my test suite. Ideally those third parties would fix their buggy code, but afte

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 18:22:21 +0100, demerphq wrote: > I am. Actually my view is that using ref at all unless you control the > input is an error. Code like Data::Visitor does not need to be as low-level-true as e.g. Data::Dump::Streamer, but still has to polymorphically handle objects, refs a

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On 2/26/07, Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 17:47:23 +0100, demerphq wrote: > On 2/26/07, Joshua ben Jore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >I'm of the opinion that it is clear and blatantly an error to ever use > >ref as a boolean. > > One liners and minor snippets whe

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 17:47:23 +0100, demerphq wrote: > On 2/26/07, Joshua ben Jore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >I'm of the opinion that it is clear and blatantly an error to ever use > >ref as a boolean. > > One liners and minor snippets where you control the input data would > be an exception

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On 2/26/07, Joshua ben Jore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm of the opinion that it is clear and blatantly an error to ever use ref as a boolean. One liners and minor snippets where you control the input data would be an exception IMO. The correct boolean is defined( blessed( obj ) ) because th

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On 2/26/07, Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 23:22:13 -0800, Joshua ben Jore wrote: > Ick Neither ref nor blessed have never been a booleans before and > even this doesn't change that. Ref couldn't even used to decide if you > had an object because the two fals

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 23:55:13 -0800, chromatic wrote: > I wonder if pulling the new DOES() code out of universal.c into a module for > 5.9.4 and earlier would alleviate that pain somehow. I don't know, most of the times I have an if clause trying to figure out all the possibilities of a value

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On 2/26/07, Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Joshua ben Jore wrote: > On 2/25/07, Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Is there a function that is to this as overload::StrVal is to >> stringification? Wouldn't that just be CORE::ref $obj ? No. I don't know how to solve this p

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 23:22:13 -0800, Joshua ben Jore wrote: > Ick Neither ref nor blessed have never been a booleans before and > even this doesn't change that. Ref couldn't even used to decide if you > had an object because the two false values '' and '0' can both be > returned by objects:

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

Yuval Kogman wrote: > On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 22:34:15 -0800, chromatic wrote: > >> Why not, I already have half of the other stuff in UNIVERSAL > > Just don't tell Adam. > Or me. I have a personal hate relationship with MockObject in this way. I love MockObject. I hate getting warnings abo

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On 2/26/07, Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Joshua ben Jore wrote: > On 2/25/07, Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Is there a function that is to this as overload::StrVal is to >> stringification? Wouldn't that just be CORE::ref $obj ? I think Josh is doing something sor

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

Joshua ben Jore wrote: > On 2/25/07, Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Is there a function that is to this as overload::StrVal is to >> stringification? Wouldn't that just be CORE::ref $obj ?

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Sunday 25 February 2007 23:04, Yuval Kogman wrote: > Hmm I usually do > > if ( ref $x ) { > if ( my $class = blessed $x ) { > > } else { > > } > } > > in code that tries to be very duck friendly. I wonder if pulling the new DO

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On 2/25/07, Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 22:51:43 -0800, Joshua ben Jore wrote: > On 2/25/07, Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Is there a function that is to this as overload::StrVal is to > >stringification? > > No. blessed() doesn't lie to you and I

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

BTW, pure perl blessed() will work: sub UNIVERSAL::a_sub_not_likely_to_be_here { ref($_[0]) } sub blessed ($) { local($@, $SIG{__DIE__}, $SIG{__WARN__}); length(ref($_[0])) ? eval { $_[0]->a_sub_not_likely_to_be_here } : undef

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 22:34:15 -0800, chromatic wrote: > Why not, I already have half of the other stuff in UNIVERSAL Just don't tell Adam. -- Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://nothingmuch.woobling.org 0xEBD27418 pgpBQt76ylqNT.pgp Description: PGP signature

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 22:51:43 -0800, Joshua ben Jore wrote: > On 2/25/07, Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Is there a function that is to this as overload::StrVal is to > >stringification? > > No. blessed() doesn't lie to you and I don't change that. I didn't > provide any ref-alike t

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On 2/25/07, Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is there a function that is to this as overload::StrVal is to stringification? No. blessed() doesn't lie to you and I don't change that. I didn't provide any ref-alike that provide the complete old behavior. If you read t/basic.t file, you'll

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

On Sunday 25 February 2007 22:26, Joshua ben Jore wrote: > I was going to send this just to chromatic because its his > Test::MockObject but then figured it'd be better to tell perl-qa about > it. Why not, I already have half of the other stuff in UNIVERSAL Looks like a great idea to me. Sh

Re: UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

Is there a function that is to this as overload::StrVal is to stringification? I don't see it on the CPAN yet so I figured I'd ask. The feature is übersweet, and Data::Lazy should make good use of it too. You++! Cheers, -- Yuval Kogman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://nothingmuch.woobling.org 0xE

UNIVERSAL::ref might make ref( $mocked_obj ) sane

I've hated it how ref() does the wrong thing so frequently so I wrote a fix for it. I like to use mock objects to feed fake or proxy objects to other things but this breaks when things not under my control use ref() to examine the class of an object. No longer. Under most circumstances ref() beha