Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread ernie hilgers 

On Nov 15, 2016, Ed Glassgow  wrote:

> There have been efforts at pure graphical programming software.  In fact, 
> there was a database program that was drag and drop in the relatively early 
> Mac days.  I wish that I could remember what it was called, but time has 
> wiped that from my memory banks.  It was very cumbersome to accomplish 
> anything of any complexity. 
it was called VIP  from the company Mainstay.  Visual Interactive Programming.  
 As a matter of fact, I threw out the manual & diskettes just last week was 
clearing out my basement.


> That’s a nice walk down memory lane.  All but 4D were very difficult to use.  
yes soo true.  

On Nov 15, 2016, Douglas von Roeder  wrote:
>  database application
> for a business using any of the Mac DB's. The contestants were 4D, FoxPro,
> Omnis, and Double Helix. FoxPro was too clumsy, Double Helix has an
> interesting approach (creating "tiles") but I knew it wouldn't grow well,
> and Omnis was so convoluted that I couldn't run the tutorials. 4D had a
> flowchart module. :-)
I must have been crazy for trying them all, but 4D was for me the clear winner. 
Coming from a DB2 & IBM system-34 environment. It was coming from a B29 Flying 
Fortress then flying a crop duster and has that crop duster evolved !!
Yes that was a very interesting time where all mentioned above were trying to 
become the DB on that weird Mac platform with only 4% or so market share. 
Brave young minds these DB creators.
Clear example of evolution in action :-)

greetings

ernie hilgers(Aruba)
**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread Tom Dillon 
David Adams wrote:

>For those of you that pass parameters, order can matter. It's been, what,
>30 years now I've been using 4D (!)  and I *still* have to double-check
>Position and Find in array
>
>Position(Needle;Haystack)
>Find in array(Haystack;Needle)

Wow! These could be useful. I just don't remember seeing them in the flowchart 
editor.

-- 
   --
   Tom Dillon   825 N. 500 W.
   DataCraft   Moab, UT 84532
   tomdil...@datacraft-inc.com   720/209-6502
   --
  Where does the pale go when your heart starts beating again?
  --- Sunastar
   --


**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread Peter Bozek 
On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:34 PM, Ed Glassgow  wrote:

> There have been efforts at pure graphical programming software.  In fact,
> there was a database program that was drag and drop in the relatively early
> Mac days.  I wish that I could remember what it was called, but time has
> wiped that from my memory banks.


Prograph or Pelegrine?

-- 

Peter Bozek
**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread Bill Weale 
Text-based coding would work better for me if the handling or ordering of 
language elements where consistent across languages. Nouns, verbs, subjects, 
objects, modifiers, etc. take different positions or ordering in different 
languages. My native language is English and my only backup is Latin. (Maybe 
THAT’S the problem!) The 4D “language” and, importantly its documentation, is a 
product of folks from many different cultures. My guess is that the varied 
ordering of elements such as parameters is partly because of this. Also, a 
translation of French documentation to English can, at least in my form of 
logical thinking, create a frustrating misunderstanding of what I need to do.

Pictures often circumvent this problem, but it seems to me more “supervision” 
of the work product—localized 4D commands and documentation—could help also.

—www


> On Nov 15, 2016, at 3:34 PM, Ed Glassgow  wrote:
> 
> There have been efforts at pure graphical programming software.  In fact, 
> there was a database program that was drag and drop in the relatively early 
> Mac days.  I wish that I could remember what it was called, but time has 
> wiped that from my memory banks.  It was very cumbersome to accomplish 
> anything of any complexity.  I don’t think that there is an ideal solution 
> for everyone and have always thought that 4D offered a good blend.

**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread Douglas von Roeder 
On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:34 PM, Ed Glassgow  wrote:

> There have been efforts at pure graphical programming software.  In fact,
> there was a database program that was drag and drop in the relatively early
> Mac days.  I wish that I could remember what it was called, but time has
> wiped that from my memory banks.  It was very cumbersome to accomplish
> anything of any complexity.  I don’t think that there is an ideal solution
> for everyone and have always thought that 4D offered a good blend.


Ed:

You're thinking of Double Helix.

When I started in 4D in 1991, I was hired to write a database application
for a business using any of the Mac DB's. The contestants were 4D, FoxPro,
Omnis, and Double Helix. FoxPro was too clumsy, Double Helix has an
interesting approach (creating "tiles") but I knew it wouldn't grow well,
and Omnis was so convoluted that I couldn't run the tutorials. 4D had a
flowchart module. :-)



--
Douglas von Roeder
949-336-2902
**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread Keith Culotta 
Was it 4th Dimension where you could commit to a graphical approach or a text 
approach, or did Omnis give that choice in the early days?

Keith - CDI

> On Nov 15, 2016, at 2:34 PM, Ed Glassgow  wrote:
> 
> There have been efforts at pure graphical programming software.  In fact, 
> there was a database program that was drag and drop in the relatively early 
> Mac days.  I wish that I could remember what it was called, but time has 
> wiped that from my memory banks.  It was very cumbersome to accomplish 
> anything of any complexity.  I don’t think that there is an ideal solution 
> for everyone and have always thought that 4D offered a good blend.
> 
> Ed
> 
> On 11/15/16, 1:29 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of Bill Weale" 
> <4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of bill.we...@builderman.com> wrote:
> 
>As far as software “developers” are concerned, I may be an extreme example 
> of someone who is bothered by this type of learning. I simply don’t have the 
> patience/attention span/(motivation?) to devote the time and effort to the 
> repetitive (to me, boring to the point of stifling) behaviors required to 
> accomplish rote learning.
> 
>Specific to 4D and other scripting platforms where an important result is 
> graphical, I’ve thought that I’d be a lot more productive if somehow the 
> programming “language” itself were more, er, graphical. There surely have 
> been improvements in my 25 years, but there’s still way too much text in this 
> world.
> 
>8-)
> 
>Bill
> 
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2016, at 6:26 PM, David Adams  wrote:
>> 
>> For those of you that pass parameters, order can matter. It's been, what,
>> 30 years now I've been using 4D (!)  and I *still* have to double-check
>> Position and Find in array
>> 
>> Position(Needle;Haystack)
>> Find in array(Haystack;Needle)
> 
>**
>4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
>**
> 
> 
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> **

**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread Ed Glassgow 
There have been efforts at pure graphical programming software.  In fact, there 
was a database program that was drag and drop in the relatively early Mac days. 
 I wish that I could remember what it was called, but time has wiped that from 
my memory banks.  It was very cumbersome to accomplish anything of any 
complexity.  I don’t think that there is an ideal solution for everyone and 
have always thought that 4D offered a good blend.

Ed

On 11/15/16, 1:29 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of Bill Weale" 
<4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of bill.we...@builderman.com> wrote:

As far as software “developers” are concerned, I may be an extreme example 
of someone who is bothered by this type of learning. I simply don’t have the 
patience/attention span/(motivation?) to devote the time and effort to the 
repetitive (to me, boring to the point of stifling) behaviors required to 
accomplish rote learning.

Specific to 4D and other scripting platforms where an important result is 
graphical, I’ve thought that I’d be a lot more productive if somehow the 
programming “language” itself were more, er, graphical. There surely have been 
improvements in my 25 years, but there’s still way too much text in this world.

8-)

Bill


> On Nov 14, 2016, at 6:26 PM, David Adams  wrote:
> 
> For those of you that pass parameters, order can matter. It's been, what,
> 30 years now I've been using 4D (!)  and I *still* have to double-check
> Position and Find in array
> 
> Position(Needle;Haystack)
> Find in array(Haystack;Needle)

**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**


**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread Bill Weale 
As far as software “developers” are concerned, I may be an extreme example of 
someone who is bothered by this type of learning. I simply don’t have the 
patience/attention span/(motivation?) to devote the time and effort to the 
repetitive (to me, boring to the point of stifling) behaviors required to 
accomplish rote learning.

Specific to 4D and other scripting platforms where an important result is 
graphical, I’ve thought that I’d be a lot more productive if somehow the 
programming “language” itself were more, er, graphical. There surely have been 
improvements in my 25 years, but there’s still way too much text in this world.

8-)

Bill


> On Nov 14, 2016, at 6:26 PM, David Adams  wrote:
> 
> For those of you that pass parameters, order can matter. It's been, what,
> 30 years now I've been using 4D (!)  and I *still* have to double-check
> Position and Find in array
> 
> Position(Needle;Haystack)
> Find in array(Haystack;Needle)

**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread John E. Bowen 
So, so true.

Without further evidence I'm not going to plead guilty to wrapping a single
4D command. But a 'Relate' method with clearly marked parameters for
$many_field_p, $one_field_p helps me avoid remembering the syntax for Query
with Whoosit, Selection from Whatsit or something like that. I use this
Relate method a lot, cribbing it from Justin some years back. Forget those
other commands. Yeah, they may have been faster, a little, back in the day.
But years go by and (for a given situation) the speed arguments make less
and less sense.

If I do find myself having to write an actual command, entering that
opening parenthesis helps a lot. So much so that I find myself going back
to that spot if I'm not sure of the order, and re-selecting and re-entering
that parenthesis, just so I can see the little status bar at the bottom
showing the syntax.



John Bowen
Solutions in 4D since 1989
jebowena...@gmail.com
949-281-6321

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Justin Leavens 
wrote:

> On November 15, 2016 at 8:14:23 AM, bob.mil...@parker.com (
> bob.mil...@parker.com) wrote:
> There has not been a single time
> when I've been able to remember which field (relating or related) to use
> with Relate One, Relate One Selection, Relate Many, and Relate Many
> Selection. Something short circuits in me when I have to remember these
> commands, even after thousands of occasions to do so.
>  nice to know I’m not alone...
>
> --
> Justin Leavens. Business Application Consultant
> jus...@jitbusiness.com   (818) 986-7298 x701
> Just In Time Consulting, Inc.
> Custom software for unique businesses
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/justinleavens
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> **
>
**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread Justin Leavens 
On November 15, 2016 at 8:14:23 AM, bob.mil...@parker.com 
(bob.mil...@parker.com) wrote:
There has not been a single time 
when I've been able to remember which field (relating or related) to use 
with Relate One, Relate One Selection, Relate Many, and Relate Many 
Selection. Something short circuits in me when I have to remember these 
commands, even after thousands of occasions to do so.
 nice to know I’m not alone...

--
Justin Leavens. Business Application Consultant
jus...@jitbusiness.com   (818) 986-7298 x701
Just In Time Consulting, Inc.
Custom software for unique businesses
http://www.linkedin.com/in/justinleavens
**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread Ortwin Zillgen 
> For those of you that pass parameters, order can matter. It's been, what,
> 30 years now I've been using 4D (!)  and I *still* have to double-check
> Position and Find in array
> 
> Position(Needle;Haystack)
> Find in array(Haystack;Needle)
> 
> So, just thinking, be kind to yourself...find a pattern and follow it. I
> end up going back from time to time and reworking parameter lists in
> related code to keep arguments the same or at least in the same order.
> Granted, sometimes you don't have the same list of parameters, but at least
> keeping chains in the same order is a help.

indeed!
I've settled on
1   object/subject to be affected
2   action or verb
Like menu-ordering or kind of RPN 


if it's too funny sounding, I break the rule



Regards
O r t w i n  Z i l l g e n
-
   
 
member of developer-network 

**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

Re: It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-15 Thread Chip Scheide 
Wrap one to look like the other  :)


On Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:26:47 +1100, David Adams wrote:
> For those of you that pass parameters, order can matter. It's been, what,
> 30 years now I've been using 4D (!)  and I *still* have to double-check
> Position and Find in array
> 
> Position(Needle;Haystack)
> Find in array(Haystack;Needle)
> 
> So, just thinking, be kind to yourself...find a pattern and follow it. I
> end up going back from time to time and reworking parameter lists in
> related code to keep arguments the same or at least in the same order.
> Granted, sometimes you don't have the same list of parameters, but at least
> keeping chains in the same order is a help.
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
> **
**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**

It's the little things (ordering parameters)

2016-11-14 Thread David Adams 
For those of you that pass parameters, order can matter. It's been, what,
30 years now I've been using 4D (!)  and I *still* have to double-check
Position and Find in array

Position(Needle;Haystack)
Find in array(Haystack;Needle)

So, just thinking, be kind to yourself...find a pattern and follow it. I
end up going back from time to time and reworking parameter lists in
related code to keep arguments the same or at least in the same order.
Granted, sometimes you don't have the same list of parameters, but at least
keeping chains in the same order is a help.
**
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com
**