Re: [9fans] sad commentary
Federico G. Benavento wrote: Plan 9 is not for end users. Plan 9 is for programmers. That has a very long beard! Isn`t programming without endusers just like wanking? bblochl
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
it seems like you are avoiding the point on purpose. No purpose I'm aware of :-) i don't think you can pick up a kernel with tweezers and make a bunch of abstract statements about it. and so i think the fact that unicode may be used anywhere a character is expected in plan9 does have a lot to do with the system's functionality. Unicode is mainly about being able to represent "human" written word. Its availability is no use if the data being passed around will be just fine as an octet stream. To my meager understanding, there's a classification of a computer system's functions that puts "encoding text" along with "representing text" and into the realm of "applications" and not "systems." Hence my claim that UTF-8 adds not to "OS functions," while it may improve "application functionality." what do you base this claim on? i'm pretty sure that the fonts distributed with the system are enough to support japanese, greek, and russian, to name only the ones i can think of quickly I asked for clarification on the point and said that I may be mistaken. Though, I'm still not sure I'll be able to successfully view a Russian web page. Do you think that's feasible? What about Hebrew, Arabic, or Persian? there is not. perhaps this is something you could contribute. Spare me. I'm no "hacker," I want to Get My Personal Job Done (tm). In fact, that was my main point; lowlifes like me will use your system if it can Get Their Job Done (tm) or they'll migrate to another system that can. They won't bother coding. --On Monday, June 30, 2008 6:56 PM -0400 erik quanstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The fact the UTF-8 was first "implemented" on Plan 9 has nothing to do with Plan 9's funtionality as an OS. it seems like you are avoiding the point on purpose. i don't think you can pick up a kernel with tweezers and make a bunch of abstract statements about it. and so i think the fact that unicode may be used anywhere a character is expected in plan9 does have a lot to do with the system's functionality. If the availability of UTF-8 is an advantage, the absence of a single Unicode font in the system useful for non-Latin languages is a very strong disadvantage. what do you base this claim on? i'm pretty sure that the fonts distributed with the system are enough to support japanese, greek, and russian, to name only the ones i can think of quickly and i am certain that code2000 and cyberbit which are available on sources provide some of the best unicode coverage for free fonts. they're not great fonts nor do they have total coverage, but no fonts do. I even doubt there's a "simple" way of inputting, say, Hebrew or Arabic in Plan 9. It'll be kind of you to clarify that point for me if I'm mistaken. there is not. perhaps this is something you could contribute. - erik
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
My sad commentary is that for whatever reason plan9 keeps attracting those who like to "talk, talk, talk", and not those who like to "code, code, code".
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
Maybe this is a troll, but I'll answer anyway. I would say 1, 2, 3, and 5 benefit from using plan9. 4 and 7 don't notice much whether they are using plan9. 6 aren't likely to get to use plan9, though their jobs would be a lot easier if they could use acid (the debugger, not the recreational substance). > Which types of programmers? > > 1. Casual programmers, e.g. an admin who finds out a few lines of code > could lighten their burden > > 2. Programmers in need of a dirty-but-quick solution, e.g. a prototype > > 3. Hobby programmers, i.e. those who learn out of curiosity and aren't > "forced" to remain loyal to a specific system's quirks and general edginess > > 4. Reluctant programmers, i.e. those who aren't programmers per se but need > to write one program in the course of solving another--probably > non-computerish--problem > > 5. Ueberprogrammers, e.g. those who write one new OS in each circadian cycle > > 6. Plain vanilla programmers, i.e. people whose "job" revolves around > programming computers most of whom have to develop codebases of their > predecessors and are stuck with whatever the original designers thought was > best be it a Plan 9 "mod" or whatever > > 7. Abstract computer science programmers, i.e. those who want to test and > profile right here right now that brand new hybrid of stack, trie, and > tuatara they've thought up > > If Plan 9 is really an OS only for people of types (5) and (6), and some of > (2), well then my statement is true that "Plan 9 is a 'niche' OS." No one > should wonder why it isn't more widely used or even remembered in less > "elite" circles. Personally, I never wondered. But I don't really care either. -- John Stalker School of Mathematics Trinity College Dublin tel +353 1 896 1983 fax +353 1 896 2282
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
You clearly have a very particular, narrow idea of what a "user" is, and a very muddy idea of how research works. Could be, but you sayign it amounts to ad hominem, right? a very muddy idea of how research works. Obviously getting an optical jukebox isn't practical for Joe Public sitting in his flat, but it makes great sense for lots of users in larger settings. Perhaps more to the Joe Public? Not even a SOHO affair or a startup will have a jukebox. Not even a normal university campus will have one (though, CS/CE/EE "labs" may be exceptions). It's not worth the effort and the price. Magnetic (e.g. hard disk), solid-state (e.g. NAND Flash), and "conventional" optical (e.g. a CD/DVD-R in a drive or at most a duplicator machine) is so "cheap" no one will think of using a jukebox. By the way, that's only an "example" of how far fetched the Plan 9 paradigm is to the normal user--who "isn't" Joe Public for the most part. Put another way: the topic under research wasn't "how do we provide the backup functionality people are asking for?", but "how would having daily dumps change the way you work? would that be useful?". It's a less product- oriented set of questions, but produces more fundamental results. // Plan 9 seems to be a "niche" OS, as I pointed out before. That may well be true, or at least that it isn't mainstream and mass-market. That's never been its objective, and I'm sorry if you wasted your time based on misunderstanding that. Fine with me. Did those "fundamental" results end in "visible" results that people could enjoy? If yes, then no need to complain about "people" not recognizing your system; if no, revise your goals or don't complain about the lack of recognition. Those who "can" appreciate fundamental results are already doing so, e.g. Russ Cox and a handful of other top-notch CS people in a handful of top-notch universities. My "open letter" was written from a lowlife's standpoint. // UTF-8 in an English-only "user" paradigm is only extravagance. We've got enough folks around here who use something other than English as their primary language with their computer that this complaing falls down. You're right that there's more research to be done here, such as on right-to-left input methods and composing characters, but that's far from the same thing. Are your non-English-speaking people capable of doing their research paper in some localized TeX/troff/groff/[some other typesetting software] version, or writing an email in their native tongue? Or reading their non-English non-Latin email? Or properly indexing their set of non-English documents using a simple search? "Without innocence, the cross is only idol." Without applications "features" are only burden. If the UI model doesn't work for you, well, that's a shame, I guess. Based on the bash love from earlier posts, I'm going to hazard a guess that your complaints are largely based on the old keyboard vs. mouse argument. I doubt hauling out the old references would be convincing once you've already made up your mind. On the contrary, while I do like using keyboard I'm very much a "polymath." Mouses are very good input devices for certain applications. The way the mouse is used--or "abused"--in rio and acme poses a problem. It is the "easy way out" to attribute that to my--probably Windows-doped--taste. There "is" a least common denominator that accommodates the basics of all tastes, and "that" is lacking in rio. Window decorations (as they're called in X-speak) are not "mere decorations," they're useful. The two button (+/- wheel) mouse is prevalent because for most people only the index and middle finger are robust enough. The ring finger is never on par with them, except of course with the unnecessary adjustment Plan 9 users seem to go through. Assigning the middle finger to both second and third buttons is another solution which is equally uncomfortable. Microsoft certainly has put a lot of money into researching human interfacing and the outcome is free for all to get and implement. Don't think for a moment that because it's Microsoft it has to be taken lightly. Hundreds of small rounded corners have made the Windows GUI experience a much better experience than that of "any" alternative GUI. --On Monday, June 30, 2008 7:07 PM -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: // Systems research? Did you actually "research" how a normal user used their // computer? Did you even try to guess how a normal user used their system? // Did you do that and end up with a technical manual whose prime example for // backup strategy involves a "Jukebox?" You clearly have a very particular, narrow idea of what a "user" is, and a very muddy idea of how research works. Obviously getting an optical jukebox isn't practical for Joe Public sitting in his flat, but it makes great sense for lots of users in larger settings. Perhaps more to the point, experience with fs(4) led pretty directly to the current co
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
I still don't get your point. And does your "point" include these "For Dummies" books? 1. Alan Simpson - Visual Web Developer 2005 Express Edition For Dummies 2. Allen Wyatt - Cleaning Windows XP For Dummies 3. Barry Burd - Beginning Programming With Java For Dummies 4. Bill Sempf - Visual Basic 2005 For Dummies.pdf 5. Damon Dean And Andy Cowitt - Macromedia Studio 8 All-In-One Desk Reference For Dummies 6. Dee-Ann LeBlanc - Linux For Dummies 7. Frederic Jones - Digital Photography, Just The Steps For Dummies 8. Steve Holzner - Ajax For Dummies 9. Kevin Beaver - Hacking For Dummies 10. Janine Warner - Dreamweaver 8 For Dummies Does Dreamweaver 8 sound like a piece of "very complex," "organically developed" software, "and" lacking "a central design idea?" "For Dummies" books are essentially non sequiturs arising from marketing schemes. RTFM is really the way to go, but you need to have an "incentive," a "promise," to RTFM. Obviously, sometimes the incentive is replaced by a compelling to obey company/university/institution policies. --On Monday, June 30, 2008 4:11 PM -0700 Skip Tavakkolian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: By the way, I provided a description of my person to avoid "dummy" labels. I may well be a "dummy" in your league but that doesn't mean I'm unable of reading a normal technical manual. I can do and have done that, on Linux, FreeBSD, and Plan 9. you've missed my point. most of the dummies books on software try to explain how to deal with very complex, organically developed systems that lack any central design idea. the fact that it requires the reader to admit to being a dummy to buy the book is telling enough.
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
Having said that, but for web browsing, I'm quite happy using Plan 9 as an end user that mostly writes code, slides, and docs and reads mail. I mean, I use it not just to modify it. This does not mean I cannot use others as well. It's fine, if you're fine with it ;-) Do you ever visit any AJAX enabled websites? Do you consider AJAX a superfluous technology? Do you switch to your "other OS" machine--or reboot your current machine--if and when you visit GMail's pages (at least to enable IMAP access for the first time)? What's your opinion on good ol' non-standard CSS? Won't you ever want to use one of these new "content delivery" systems, such as Microsoft Silverlight or Adobe Flash? Do you sometimes need to write an XML document? Do you need to validate it? Do you need to transform it? Are you going to write or port each and every application you need for doing so? All these could "theoretically" become "supported" (that's different from being "included") in an OS if it manages to gather enough public momentum. Without that you can do only your "serious" stuff which excludes quite some of the "good" stuff. Public momentum comes from providing "the public" with enough incentive so that a small portion of that public actually writes what the rest will need. Incidentally, I find it a bit hypocritical to do "research" (read: find out how a system can Get New Jobs Done (tm)) on a system but turn to another whenever one actually needs to Get Something Done (tm). --On Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:17 AM +0200 Francisco J Ballesteros <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Many of the ideas have been/will be applied to other systems, and that will affects end users as well. It's just that there's no need to use the same system for doing research and for, say, browsing the web. Having said that, but for web browsing, I'm quite happy using Plan 9 as an end user that mostly writes code, slides, and docs and reads mail. I mean, I use it not just to modify it. This does not mean I cannot use others as well.
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
I have "never" done "any" kernel programming or any "major" programming. I thought I said that on my original post. That line was to be taken tongue-in-cheek. It meant that I, as a user, shouldn't need to actually "read code" to appreciate what Plan 9 has to offer. --On Monday, June 30, 2008 8:23 PM -0300 Iruata Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Barring a "mystical" bond with its exquisite kernel, of course. it seems you have done much kernel programming, eh? iru
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
You have not read even a single word before replying. I said I do use Plan 9 for all the things that have to be done for my daily work. Enough of this rant, time to write some code. On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Having said that, but for web browsing, I'm quite >> happy using Plan 9 as an end user that mostly writes code, slides, and >> docs and reads mail. I mean, I use it not just to modify it. This does not >> mean I cannot use others as well. > > It's fine, if you're fine with it ;-) Do you ever visit any AJAX enabled > websites? Do you consider AJAX a superfluous technology? Do you switch to > your "other OS" machine--or reboot your current machine--if and when you > visit GMail's pages (at least to enable IMAP access for the first time)? > What's your opinion on good ol' non-standard CSS? Won't you ever want to use > one of these new "content delivery" systems, such as Microsoft Silverlight > or Adobe Flash? > > Do you sometimes need to write an XML document? Do you need to validate it? > Do you need to transform it? Are you going to write or port each and every > application you need for doing so? > > All these could "theoretically" become "supported" (that's different from > being "included") in an OS if it manages to gather enough public momentum. > Without that you can do only your "serious" stuff which excludes quite some > of the "good" stuff. Public momentum comes from providing "the public" with > enough incentive so that a small portion of that public actually writes what > the rest will need. > > Incidentally, I find it a bit hypocritical to do "research" (read: find out > how a system can Get New Jobs Done (tm)) on a system but turn to another > whenever one actually needs to Get Something Done (tm). > > --On Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:17 AM +0200 Francisco J Ballesteros > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Many of the ideas have been/will be applied to other >> systems, and that will affects end users as well. It's just that there's >> no need to use the same system for doing research and for, say, >> browsing the web. >> >> Having said that, but for web browsing, I'm quite >> happy using Plan 9 as an end user that mostly writes code, slides, and >> docs and reads mail. I mean, I use it not just to modify it. This does not >> mean I cannot use others as well. >> > > > > > >
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
You've misread me. I'm far from understanding which facilities Plan 9 provides for "ron minnich," the CS/CE person. I should be able of finding facilities it provides for "me," the lowlife. Or I'd dump it as an option for Getting My Job Done (tm), as did many before me. No public recognition of Plan 9 lies in that direction. In passing, I may actually be able to figure out how to cope with your "challenge." That wouldn't change Plan 9's status as a "niche" OS, however. I happen to know that Plan 9 presents a network transparent environment, so trying out a C compiler at plan9.bell-labs.com shouldn't be any harder than trying it out at the local machine which is incidentally much harder to grasp "conceptually" than the same task performed on FreeBSD because network transparency involves additional layers of abstraction whether you admit it or not. A stand-alone Plan 9 system amounts in conceptual complexity "for the user" to at least three interconnected machines. Very little has been done to cover that. --On Monday, June 30, 2008 5:22 PM -0700 ron minnich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 2:20 PM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Not a very kind comment. Though, it is possible that it's true. What was there for me to understand about Plan 9 that I did not? Barring a "mystical" bond with its exquisite kernel, of course. Let's pretend I want to try out the C compilers at plan9.bell-labs.com. i want to see what they do, maybe differently than my local ones do. How do you do that? ron
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
9fans is 99 out of 100 times all "code, code, code." You can ignore me as an irrelevancy and read the other 99/100 posts. Good luck deep diving. --On Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:23 AM -0600 andrey mirtchovski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: My sad commentary is that for whatever reason plan9 keeps attracting those who like to "talk, talk, talk", and not those who like to "code, code, code".
Re: [9fans] 9vx
>> I added devsd and wrote an sd loopback yesterday afternoon.
>> It worked pretty well except that when I ran fdisk,
>> /dev/sd00/data disappeared. I was going to debug that
>> before saying anything.
>
> Here's the fix for the fdisk problem:
>
> /sys/src/cmd/disk/prep/edit.c:503,508 - edit.c:503,509
>*/
> for(i=0; inctlpart; i++) {
> p = edit->ctlpart[i];
> + if(strncmp(p->ctlname, "data", 5) != 0)
> if(p->changed)
> if(fprint(ctlfd, "delpart %s\n", p->ctlname)<0) {
> fprint(2, "delpart failed: %s: %r\n", p->ctlname);
i don't think this is the right solution.
as geoff pointed out, fdisk shouldn't be deleteing the parent
partition or any partitions that lie outside its parent partition.
obviously prep has a similar problem.
- erik
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
> That has a very long beard! Isn`t programming without endusers just like > wanking? how is that related to Plan 9 being for programmers? -- Federico G. Benavento
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
Most people just want to use a computer, not learn all about it (just as they want to drive a car and not look under the hood). Using things that you don't understand is suspicious, but I agree that most people do it, they sit in their Windows and don't know what they're doing. And there are a lot of problems rising from that. That's ok for me, so I have a lot of work to do, but in fact it's a direct consequence from the "user-orientated" design of Windows Explorer and Mac-OS Aqua and KDE, and, to a lesser extend, GNOME: these environments use a lot of abstraction to present the Computer like something that understands you, so you feel like home - at the same time, and as an inevitable spin-off, this hides the computers real functioning. And that may be good to sell these things, it may even be good to make a lot of money with cheap and uneducated workforce that sits in front of these things, but it's not a good approach to make a computer operative, that means a good OS. The popular approach is not about making the Computer operative for the people (and they know it, just read some science-fiction from the 70ties, or watch some movies about ai going evil - "HAL" from 2001 is the interface Windows still dreams of), it's exactly the other way round: it's an approach to make the people serve the computer. And that's what they do all day long in the offices around the world. And that doesn't come from what the people want, it's because they need to pay the rent and have nothing to sell but their lifetime. Plan9 can't do anything about that, but it is the better OS. philosophic regards, Stefan
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
eris, stop trolling and sending apples to the parties you're not invited. -- Federico G. Benavento (sent with opera 9.5 via linuxemu+equis)
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
2008/7/1 Federico G. Benavento <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > eris, > > stop trolling and sending apples to the parties you're not invited. Eris _Discordia_, good nick for a troll: discordia: f discord -- Andrés
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
Not to mention quoting ESR is not going to win you any friends anywhere, except for ESR's house... jcw On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 11:01 PM, ron minnich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > well, Eris, it is quite possible that you're right. It is also > possible that you never quite got it. > > Or both are possible. > > ron > >
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
Haha, sarcasm at it's finest. Eris, you are my hero. -- hiro
Re: [9fans] 9vx
> Here's the fix for the fdisk problem:
>
> /sys/src/cmd/disk/prep/edit.c:503,508 - edit.c:503,509
>*/
> for(i=0; inctlpart; i++) {
> p = edit->ctlpart[i];
> + if(strncmp(p->ctlname, "data", 5) != 0)
> if(p->changed)
> if(fprint(ctlfd, "delpart %s\n", p->ctlname)<0) {
> fprint(2, "delpart failed: %s: %r\n", p->ctlname);
That would work, but one wonders why
the normal kernel doesn't have this problem.
Russ
Re: [9fans] double sleep
> OK, it is hard to get this to repeat, and I lost it last time. But > after running venti a while > and doing a venti copy with vx32 as the dst I eventually get a double > sleep in the > io kproc. > > I'll try to get it to fail again :-) Please run with -A so that if it happens again you can attach gdb and run "thread apply all where 20" Thanks. Russ
Re: [9fans] plan 9 newbie guide
Michael is a very smart man with a great sense of language, sophisticated knowledge of computer science, but he was totally ignorant of Plan 9. That fact allowed him to record what he was learning. As time went by he was quickly loosing a sense of what he needed to know, becoming instead more knowledgeable of Plan 9. You and I can't expand his paper. We know too much. We should let Michael own the paper. Uriel wrote: There have been similar efforts in the past, but this one is *really* nice. Concise, clear and covers basic stuff but fast enough. Do you have the troff source available? That would make it easier for people to expand it further. Also I would be happy to host an html version at http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/ if that is OK with you. Thanks, peace and best wishes uriel On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 11:46 PM, erik quanstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: this guide was writen at coraid by michael covington. the document proclaims itself to be: This is a quick-start guide to the user interface of the Plan 9 operating system based on my own experiences getting started at Coraid. [...] This is not a technical guide to Plan 9. This is only a "guide for the perplexed" for those who are using Plan 9 for the first time. a temporary home for this document is here: http://www.quanstro.net/newbie-guide.pdf - erik
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 11:53 PM, bblochl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That has a very long beard! Isn`t programming without endusers just like > wanking? If I had a dime for every time I've heard this ... First time I heard it was about Unix, ca. 1976. Usually I hear it from grouchy old guys. One of them fought the demise of punched cards and paper tape with great bitterness. I'm going to assume you're joking. ron
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 1:42 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You've misread me. I'm far from understanding which facilities Plan 9 > provides for "ron minnich," the CS/CE person. >> Let's pretend I want to try out the C compilers at >> plan9.bell-labs.com. i want to see what they do, maybe differently >> than my local ones do. >> >> How do you do that? >> >> ron In other words, you didn't even bother to learn that trivial bit. You remind me of guys in the 70s who just couldn't figure out "this Unacks stuff". They just didn't get pipes, and they knew that they were useless to the average user, who really needed files with Hollerith card images in them. Unix did not look like what they were used to, so they just "knew" it had no value. I knew a guy once who we delivered a Sun to. "What's this windowing bullshit?" he asked me. He put the mouse in a drawer, this in spite of the fact that Sun text mode at the time ran at 1200 baud. Nope, too hard to learn. Learn and adapt, or die. No other choices . ron
Re: [9fans] tip 9vx segfault on Ubuntu in Xen
> I have Ubuntu on a VPS (on Xen) and I'd like to install a Plan 9 > server using 9vx. 9vx tip compiles, but segfaults after the "256M > memory" line (as does the precompiled binary, in the same place). I am > tunneling to local X11 on OS X 10.5.3. > > I don't know how to debug this properly, but here is gdb output > similar to what I saw in another report. The seg faults are normal. 9vx handles them and continues. To run under gdb you need to say handle SIGSEGV noprint nostop so that gdb will let it keep going. What behavior did you see when you weren't running under gdb? If it was a panic, better to set a break point at panic. Russ
Re: [9fans] double sleep
Thread 8 (Thread -1759208560 (LWP 2898)): #0 0xb7f2e424 in __kernel_vsyscall () #1 0x4e6f7a43 in poll () from /lib/libc.so.6 #2 0x4117fa99 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #3 0x4117fe7f in _XRead () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #4 0x411816bb in _XReadEvents () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #5 0x4116a7ab in XNextEvent () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #6 0x080a08d9 in _xproc (v=0x0) at 9vx/x11/x11-kernel.c:108 #7 0x08056c1b in linkproc () at 9vx/trap.c:484 #8 0x in ?? () Thread 7 (Thread -1768916080 (LWP 2899)): #0 0x4e701723 in __call_pselect6 () from /lib/libc.so.6 #1 0x4e6fa723 in pselect () from /lib/libc.so.6 #2 0x0805611a in timerkproc (v=0x0) at 9vx/time.c:187 #3 0x08056c1b in linkproc () at 9vx/trap.c:484 #4 0x in ?? () Thread 6 (Thread -1778623600 (LWP 2900)): #0 0xb7f2e424 in __kernel_vsyscall () #1 0x4e7d7206 in pthread_cond_wait@@GLIBC_2.3.2 () from /lib/libpthread.so.0 #2 0x080534d2 in runproc () at 9vx/sched.c:237 #3 0x0808df2b in sched () at 9vx/a/proc.c:165 #4 0x080523f1 in squidboy (v=0x828e248) at 9vx/main.c:723 #5 0x4e7d344b in start_thread () from /lib/libpthread.so.0 #6 0x4e70180e in clone () from /lib/libc.so.6 Thread 5 (Thread -1792275568 (LWP 2901)): #0 0xb7f2e424 in __kernel_vsyscall () #1 0x4e7d7206 in pthread_cond_wait@@GLIBC_2.3.2 () from /lib/libpthread.so.0 #2 0x080534d2 in runproc () at 9vx/sched.c:237 #3 0x0808df2b in sched () at 9vx/a/proc.c:165 #4 0x080523f1 in squidboy (v=0x829f930) at 9vx/main.c:723 #5 0x4e7d344b in start_thread () from /lib/libpthread.so.0 #6 0x4e70180e in clone () from /lib/libc.so.6 Thread 4 (Thread -1808557168 (LWP 2902)): #0 0xb7f2e424 in __kernel_vsyscall () #1 0x4e7da008 in accept () from /lib/libpthread.so.0 #2 0x0804f227 in so_accept (fd=35, raddr=0x96105f64, rport=0x96105f6a) at 9vx/devip-posix.c:102 #3 0x0804e3c2 in ipopen (c=0x82e0b38, omode=2) at 9vx/devip.c:303 #4 0x08050b6b in kserve (kc=0x93239b50) at 9vx/kprocdev.c:98 #5 0x0805155a in kserver (v=0x827d788) at 9vx/kprocdev.c:155 #6 0x08056c1b in linkproc () at 9vx/trap.c:484 #7 0x in ?? () Thread 3 (Thread -1832952944 (LWP 2903)): #0 0xb7f2e424 in __kernel_vsyscall () #1 0x4e7da008 in accept () from /lib/libpthread.so.0 #2 0x0804f227 in so_accept (fd=37, raddr=0x930f8f64, rport=0x930f8f6a) at 9vx/devip-posix.c:102 #3 0x0804e3c2 in ipopen (c=0x82ee158, omode=2) at 9vx/devip.c:303 #4 0x08050b6b in kserve (kc=0x915a7b50) at 9vx/kprocdev.c:98 #5 0x0805155a in kserver (v=0x82c6810) at 9vx/kprocdev.c:155 #6 0x08056c1b in linkproc () at 9vx/trap.c:484 #7 0x in ?? () Thread 2 (Thread -1846604912 (LWP 2904)): #0 0xb7f2e424 in __kernel_vsyscall () #1 0x4e7d7206 in pthread_cond_wait@@GLIBC_2.3.2 () from /lib/libpthread.so.0 #2 0x080534d2 in runproc () at 9vx/sched.c:237 #3 0x0808df2b in sched () at 9vx/a/proc.c:165 #4 0x080523f1 in squidboy (v=0x82e6040) at 9vx/main.c:723 #5 0x4e7d344b in start_thread () from /lib/libpthread.so.0 #6 0x4e70180e in clone () from /lib/libc.so.6 Thread 1 (Thread -1208953152 (LWP 2897)): #0 0xb7f2e424 in __kernel_vsyscall () #1 0x4e7d7206 in pthread_cond_wait@@GLIBC_2.3.2 () from /lib/libpthread.so.0 #2 0x08053646 in idlehands () at 9vx/sched.c:237 #3 0x0808cc06 in _runproc () at 9vx/a/proc.c:542 #4 0x0805343a in runproc () at 9vx/sched.c:118 #5 0x0808df2b in sched () at 9vx/a/proc.c:165 #6 0x0805277b in main (argc=, argv=) at 9vx/main.c:202 #0 0xb7f2e424 in __kernel_vsyscall () It died quickly this time. Thanks ron
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
> Window decorations (as they're called in X-speak) are not "mere > decorations," they're useful. The two button (+/- wheel) mouse is prevalent > because for most people only the index and middle finger are robust enough. > The ring finger is never on par with them, except of course with the > unnecessary adjustment Plan 9 users seem to go through. Assigning the > middle finger to both second and third buttons is another solution which is > equally uncomfortable. > Somebody call the X guys and tell them that they've been using too many buttons for 20 years and THAT'S why their system has failed. John
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 1:47 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Plan 9 is not for end users. Plan 9 is for programmers. > Maybe more appropriate in your case - Plan 9 is not for Windows sys admins. Please describe the process of accessing an audio device on a computer across the room with windows and describe how you can do it from the shell... -eric
Re: [9fans] 9vx
>> Here's the fix for the fdisk problem:
>>
>> /sys/src/cmd/disk/prep/edit.c:503,508 - edit.c:503,509
>> */
>> for(i=0; inctlpart; i++) {
>> p = edit->ctlpart[i];
>> +if(strncmp(p->ctlname, "data", 5) != 0)
>> if(p->changed)
>> if(fprint(ctlfd, "delpart %s\n", p->ctlname)<0) {
>> fprint(2, "delpart failed: %s: %r\n", p->ctlname);
on second read, with this approach, i would think that strcmp() not
strncmp should be used.
>
> That would work, but one wonders why
> the normal kernel doesn't have this problem.
this must be a quirk of the interaction between
devsd and fdisk. by hand data does disappear:
; lc
9fatctl datanvram plan9 raw
; for(i in 9fat data nvram plan9 data)echo delpart $i>ctl
; lc
ctl raw
by the way, be very careful with this before
applying this patch:
; diff -c /sys/src/9/port/devsd.c /n/dump/2008/0701/sys/src/9/port/devsd.c
/sys/src/9/port/devsd.c:147,153 -
/n/dump/2008/0701/sys/src/9/port/devsd.c:147,152
*/
pp = unit->part;
for(i = 0; i < unit->npart; i++){
- if(pp->name)
if(strcmp(name, pp->name) == 0)
break;
pp++;
this is required because npart is set to the number
of partitions allocated. the names never-set partitions
might be 0. otherwise "delpart missingpart>/dev/sdXX/ctl"
will be a noisy and somewhat gratituous synonym for
"echo reboot>/dev/reboot".
- erik
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 1:47 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Plan 9 is not for end users. Plan 9 is for programmers. >> > > Maybe more appropriate in your case - Plan 9 is not for Windows sys admins. > > Please describe the process of accessing an audio device on a computer > across the room with windows and describe how you can do it from the > shell... > >-eric Eric, I don't know what this "audio" thing you CS/CE type researchers are using but us lowlifes just need Firefox and Excel before we can use Plan 9. I'm afraid that until you can provide those, Joe Public will never use Plan 9 and it will be forever doomed to run only on supercomputers and storage systems and in research settings. John "Bob Dobbs" Floren
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
> > >The question is what new function Plan 9, as an OS, defines for > the end user. > Plan 9 is not for end users. Plan 9 is for programmers. > I think I just heard the sound of a nail being struck on the head. I do find myself wanting Lisp, Scheme, and Haskell and all my other weird programming toys for Plan 9 too. I believe Haskell and Scheme are handled, but has there ever been a Common Lisp implementation for it? Perhaps I should look into a port of SBCL or something. Dave > > -rob > >
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
>> >> >>The question is what new function Plan 9, as an OS, defines for >> the end user. >> Plan 9 is not for end users. Plan 9 is for programmers. >> > > I think I just heard the sound of a nail being struck on the head. > > I do find myself wanting Lisp, Scheme, and Haskell and all my other weird > programming toys for Plan 9 too. I believe Haskell and Scheme are handled, > but has there ever been a Common Lisp implementation for it? Perhaps I > should look into a port of SBCL or something. > > Dave > Yes please! I know I'd use it. John
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 2:21 AM, Federico G. Benavento <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That has a very long beard! Isn`t programming without endusers just like > > wanking? > > how is that related to Plan 9 being for programmers? > I don't even think it's a fair comparison. All an end user is is the target audience of a system. It's not like the programs being written aren't being used. They're being used by the ultimate end users of Plan 9 which happen to be other programmers. Dave > > -- > Federico G. Benavento >
Re: [9fans] tip 9vx segfault on Ubuntu in Xen
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Russ Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I have Ubuntu on a VPS (on Xen) and I'd like to install a Plan 9 >> server using 9vx. 9vx tip compiles, but segfaults after the "256M >> memory" line (as does the precompiled binary, in the same place). I am >> tunneling to local X11 on OS X 10.5.3. >> >> I don't know how to debug this properly, but here is gdb output >> similar to what I saw in another report. > > The seg faults are normal. 9vx handles them and continues. > To run under gdb you need to say > >handle SIGSEGV noprint nostop > > so that gdb will let it keep going. > > What behavior did you see when you weren't running under gdb? > If it was a panic, better to set a break point at panic. No panic: the window appears and two lines print (the command-line arguments and the memory readout), then everything stops. When I use -X, the lines of assembly stop. This looks useless, but if I pause in gdb the backtrace is: #0 0xe410 in __kernel_vsyscall () #1 0x401f6647 in poll () from /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6 #2 0x40061839 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #3 0x08272970 in ?? () #4 0x0001 in ?? () #5 0x in ?? () #6 0x40111b2c in ?? () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #7 0x082723c0 in ?? () #8 0x40111b2c in ?? () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #9 0x082723c0 in ?? () #10 0x in ?? () If I press keys, though, I get output like this, so I guess it's not completely frozen: memdraw 827b780 [4 57] [13 68] 8269da8 [1879113727 -613566757] 8269e60 [918 2] memdraw 827b780 [13 57] [22 68] 8269da8 [1879113727 -613566757] 8269e60 [918 2] memdraw 827b780 [22 60] [31 68] 8269da8 [1879113727 -613566757] 8269e60 [873 5] It never does anything as long as I wait, though. -- Tom Lieber http://AllTom.com/
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
> lowlifes like me will use your system if it > can Get Their Job Done (tm) or they'll migrate to another system that can. > They won't bother coding. then migrate, already ... john
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
I have always felt guilty about wanting Common LISP on Plan 9; but I am not entirely sure why. John On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 4:35 PM, David Leimbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>The question is what new function Plan 9, as an OS, defines for >> the end user. >> Plan 9 is not for end users. Plan 9 is for programmers. > > I think I just heard the sound of a nail being struck on the head. > > I do find myself wanting Lisp, Scheme, and Haskell and all my other weird > programming toys for Plan 9 too. I believe Haskell and Scheme are handled, > but has there ever been a Common Lisp implementation for it? Perhaps I > should look into a port of SBCL or something. > Dave >> >> -rob >> > >
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 6:59 AM, John Waters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have always felt guilty about wanting Common LISP on Plan 9; but I > am not entirely sure why. > John > Eh, there's lots of code for Common Lisp out there that'd be nice to run on Plan 9 in my opinion. I don't think we're alone in our feelings :-). A lot of time Unix and Lisp have seem a bit at odds... I think there's been papers written on the topic even. Dave > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 4:35 PM, David Leimbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>The question is what new function Plan 9, as an OS, defines for > >> the end user. > >> Plan 9 is not for end users. Plan 9 is for programmers. > > > > I think I just heard the sound of a nail being struck on the head. > > > > I do find myself wanting Lisp, Scheme, and Haskell and all my other weird > > programming toys for Plan 9 too. I believe Haskell and Scheme are > handled, > > but has there ever been a Common Lisp implementation for it? Perhaps I > > should look into a port of SBCL or something. > > Dave > >> > >> -rob > >> > > > > > >
[9fans] cpu working for anyone on 9vx?
I deleted the /net/cs file... ran /ndb/cs, started factotum, and finally tried to cpu to a remote host, and it appears to be stuck. I tried to cp a file from sources yesterday, and *that* also appeared to get stuck. Anyone else having this kind of trouble with .11? Dave
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
I am not even a programmer. I'm using plan9 and inferno because the systems are so simple and flexible, that I only have to use two-liner shell scripts for my tasks.
Re: [9fans] tip 9vx segfault on Ubuntu in Xen
> No panic: the window appears and two lines print (the command-line > arguments and the memory readout), then everything stops. When I use > -X, the lines of assembly stop. When it stops, then can should attach gdb by looking up the pid in ps and running gdb 9vx pid thread apply all where 20 That's usually safer than running 9vx under gdb from the start. 9vx is a multithreaded program, so it would help to know what the other threads are doing, not just the X11 thread. Thanks. Russ
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:06 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> lowlifes like me will use your system if it >> can Get Their Job Done (tm) or they'll migrate to another system that can. >> They won't bother coding. > > then migrate, already ... > he's having more fun trolling. ron
Re: [9fans] 9vx
> this must be a quirk of the interaction between > devsd and fdisk. by hand data does disappear: > > ; lc > 9fatctl datanvram plan9 raw > ; for(i in 9fat data nvram plan9 data)echo delpart $i>ctl > ; lc > ctl raw You are allowed to delete the data partition. The problem is that fdisk should not be trying to. Since it doesn't do that on native Plan 9, there must be some aspect of devsd that is not behaving the same way under 9vx that it does under Plan 9. The bug is in devsd, though you'll probably have to add prints to fdisk to find it. Plan 9: glenda# disk/fdisk -p /dev/sdC0/data part linux 63 58589055 part plan9 58589055 241248105 glenda# 9vx: % bind '#Z' /n/unix % echo loop rw /n/unix/dev/sda >/dev/sdctl % disk/fdisk -p /dev/sd00/data delpart data part linux 63 476230860 part linuxswap 476230923 488392065 % That's running on a different disk but the same fdisk binary (the one from sources as of today, dated May 10). Russ
Re: [9fans] cpu working for anyone on 9vx?
> I deleted the /net/cs file... ran /ndb/cs, started factotum, and finally > tried to cpu to a remote host, and it appears to be stuck. > I tried to cp a file from sources yesterday, and *that* also appeared to get > stuck. > > Anyone else having this kind of trouble with .11? This kind of thing happened on OS X with the .11 binaries. I think it is fixed in .12. Russ
[9fans] vx32, 9vx 0.12
There are new sources and binaries in the usual places. If you missed the announcement before, there is now a Mercurial repository at http://hg.pdos.csail.mit.edu/hg/vx32/ The OS X code seems to have stabilized, and it doesn't require X11 anymore. I think there are OS X bugs tickled by having signals flying all over the place: I've seen both pthread_cond_wait and pipe read miss the corresponding pthread_cond_signal or pipe write. If someone who is knowledgeable wants to take a look, see 9vx/sched.c. I've worked around the bugs, so you shouldn't see hangs anymore. You might see the occasional 1-second hiccup. Russ
Re: [9fans] plan 9 newbie guide
Good point and agreed. uriel On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Brantley Coile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Michael is a very smart man with a great sense of language, sophisticated > knowledge of computer science, but he was totally ignorant of Plan 9. That > fact allowed him to record what he was learning. As time went by he was > quickly loosing a sense of what he needed to know, becoming instead more > knowledgeable of Plan 9. You and I can't expand his paper. We know too > much. We should let Michael own the paper. > > Uriel wrote: >> >> There have been similar efforts in the past, but this one is *really* >> nice. Concise, clear and covers basic stuff but fast enough. >> >> Do you have the troff source available? That would make it easier for >> people to expand it further. Also I would be happy to host an html >> version at http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/ if that is OK with you. >> >> Thanks, peace and best wishes >> >> uriel >> >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 11:46 PM, erik quanstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>> >>> this guide was writen at coraid by michael covington. >>> the document proclaims itself to be: >>> >>> This is a quick-start guide to the user interface of the >>> Plan 9 operating system based on my own experiences getting >>> started at Coraid. >>> [...] >>> This is not a technical guide to Plan 9. This is only a "guide >>> for the perplexed" for those who are using Plan 9 for the first >>> time. >>> >>> a temporary home for this document is here: >>> >>> http://www.quanstro.net/newbie-guide.pdf >>> >>> - erik >>> >>> >>> >> > >
Re: [9fans] cpu working for anyone on 9vx?
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:48 AM, Russ Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I deleted the /net/cs file... ran /ndb/cs, started factotum, and finally > > tried to cpu to a remote host, and it appears to be stuck. > > I tried to cp a file from sources yesterday, and *that* also appeared to > get > > stuck. > > > > Anyone else having this kind of trouble with .11? > > This kind of thing happened on OS X with the .11 binaries. > I think it is fixed in .12. > > Russ I'll try as soon as I can again today. Thanks!
Re: [9fans] tip 9vx segfault on Ubuntu in Xen
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Russ Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When it stops, then can should attach gdb by > looking up the pid in ps and running > >gdb 9vx pid >thread apply all where 20 > > That's usually safer than running 9vx under > gdb from the start. 9vx is a multithreaded > program, so it would help to know what the > other threads are doing, not just the X11 thread. Attaching doesn't seem to work in this case: Attaching to program: /home/tom/vx32/src/9vx/9vx, process 20840 /build/buildd/gdb-6.6.dfsg/gdb/linux-nat.c:1026: internal-error: linux_nat_attach: Assertion `pid == GET_PID (inferior_ptid) && WIFSTOPPED (status) && WSTOPSIG (status) == SIGSTOP' failed. A problem internal to GDB has been detected Searching for this error yielded an e-mail saying, "When Xorg hangs inside a signal handler, gdb is unable to attach to it." And "thread apply all where 20" has no output. However, if I run it from within gdb with -F, and ignoring SIGSEGV I get this: Thread 4 (Thread 1654795152 (LWP 20864)): #0 0xe410 in __kernel_vsyscall () #1 0x4011e676 in pthread_cond_wait@@GLIBC_2.3.2 () from /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libpthread.so.0 #2 0x08053990 in runproc () at 9vx/sched.c:237 #3 0x0808f1cb in sched () at 9vx/a/proc.c:165 #4 0x08052842 in squidboy (v=0x828e8d0) at 9vx/main.c:723 #5 0x4011a46b in start_thread () from /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libpthread.so.0 #6 0x4020073e in clone () from /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6 Thread 3 (Thread 1645087632 (LWP 20863)): #0 0xe410 in __kernel_vsyscall () #1 0x4012237a in do_sigwait () from /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libpthread.so.0 #2 0x4012241f in sigwait () from /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libpthread.so.0 #3 0x0805675d in timerkproc (v=0x0) at 9vx/time.c:168 #4 0x0805723b in linkproc () at 9vx/trap.c:484 #5 0x in ?? () Thread 2 (Thread 1635380112 (LWP 20862)): #0 0xe410 in __kernel_vsyscall () #1 0x401f6647 in poll () from /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6 #2 0x40061839 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #3 0x08272970 in ?? () #4 0x0001 in ?? () #5 0x in ?? () #6 0x4006a67f in _X11TransWrite () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #7 0x40061c2f in _XRead () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #8 0x4006347b in _XReadEvents () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #9 0x4004f6eb in XNextEvent () from /usr/lib/libX11.so.6 #10 0x080a1f37 in _xproc (v=0x0) at 9vx/x11/x11-kernel.c:141 #11 0x0805723b in linkproc () at 9vx/trap.c:484 #12 0x in ?? () Thread 1 (Thread 1076381360 (LWP 20859)): #0 sigsegv (signo=11, info=0x8254eac, v=0x8254f2c) at 9vx/main.c:500 #1 #2 sigsegv (signo=11, info=0x825522c, v=0x82552ac) at 9vx/main.c:500 #3 #4 sigsegv (signo=11, info=0x82555ac, v=0x825562c) at 9vx/main.c:500 #5 #6 sigsegv (signo=11, info=0x825592c, v=0x82559ac) at 9vx/main.c:500 #7 #8 sigsegv (signo=11, info=0x8255cac, v=0x8255d2c) at 9vx/main.c:500 #9 #10 sigsegv (signo=11, info=0x825602c, v=0x82560ac) at 9vx/main.c:500 #11 #12 sigsegv (signo=11, info=0x82563ac, v=0x825642c) at 9vx/main.c:500 #13 #14 sigsegv (signo=11, info=0x825672c, v=0x82567ac) at 9vx/main.c:500 #15 #16 sigsegv (signo=11, info=0x8256aac, v=0x8256b2c) at 9vx/main.c:500 #17 #18 sigsegv (signo=11, info=0x8256e2c, v=0x8256eac) at 9vx/main.c:500 #19 (More stack frames follow...) #0 0xe410 in __kernel_vsyscall () Is the last one legitimate? -- Tom Lieber http://AllTom.com/
Re: [9fans] /lib/font fonts in troff
> Hello. I found a few fonts from /lib/font (Courier, for aesthetic > reasons, and erik's vera, for its complete Unicode conformance) that > I'd like to make available to troff. Is there any way to do this? I'll > name the files myself (Other-Courier and Bitstream-Vera, perhaps). Courier is already available in troff. It is mounted by default as CW in position 5. Look in /sys/lib/troff/font/devutf for others. Trying to use fonts from /lib/font/bit is not a very good idea -- they will look crummy on paper since they are just low-resolution bitmap fonts. You need to find Type 1 or TrueType or OpenType versions. In p9p, $PLAN9/dist/troff contains tools for creating the relevant troff font descriptions for new font files. I'll warn you right now that it is very unlikely the script is going to work out of the box for you--it was more just a record of what I put together than something I expected other people to use--so you're going to have to figure it out. It also contains an rm command at the top that you might want to look at before you run it. The script there generated the files in $PLAN9/postscript/font/luxi $PLAN9/postscript/font/dejavu $PLAN9/troff/font/devutf/Luxi* $PLAN9/troff/font/devutf/DejaVu* The Deja Vu fonts are Bitstream Vera with additions, so perhaps you could get by with just copying the relevant files from p9p and not bothering trying to generate new font files. It's a bit of a black art. Russ P. S. I don't know what font is in /lib/font/bit/courier, but it's not exactly Courier. The A is missing the top serif and the @ is much squarer than the usual Courier.
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Federico G. Benavento <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> That has a very long beard! Isn`t programming without endusers just like >> wanking? > > how is that related to Plan 9 being for programmers? > That means that Plan 9 is like porn for hackers. uriel
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --On Monday, June 30, 2008 3:11 PM -0500 michael block > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 2:12 PM, Eris Discordia >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> Fossil/Venti, however brilliant it may look like to the code junkie, does >>> not offer anything for me but added complexity. >> >> i'm using p9p venti on linux, and it's been a total breeze to >> configure and administer. the utility of hist and yesterday in my >> opinion far outweigh the couple megabytes of memory that venti needs >> to be running all the time (i run it on my desktop machine, not a >> dedicated file server). i'm curious to know what backup system you're >> using that is simpler than venti. my interest in plan 9, inferno, >> octopus, &c stems mainly from my using venti for backups and finding >> it to be far better that anything unix had to offer. so it you really >> do have a backup system simpler and more robust than venti, i'd love >> to try it out >> >> -- >> i apologize in advance if gmail has in anyway mutilated this messege. >> stay beautiful! >> > A very effective "backup" method for work on your "desktop:" > > 1. Organize your "creative work" when you "create" them, plan beforehand > > 2. Copy/synchronize the collection to an external hard disk and/or a > solid-state storage device which you detach from your "desktop" computer > after you turn it off, repeat this step depending on how heavily you modify > the work, automate using cron (or Task Scheduler if you're on Windows) > > 3. Copy the entire collection to optical media every once in a while, store > the copy in a safe place venti eliminates step one and simplifies step two. > b. If your data happens to be quite a lot of source code it should be stored > in a version control system which may provide its own backup measures. venti /is/ a version control system. it's practicly the same thing as git, but with sealed arenas > With (now almost obsolete) RCS backing up > should be as simple as tarring one or more directories. CVS and/or SVN > shouldn't pose any harder problems. backing up with venti is as simple as letting a cron job run regards, michael khayyam ravenhurst -- i apologize in advance if gmail has in anyway mutilated this messege. stay beautiful!
Re: [9fans] vx32, 9vx 0.12
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Russ Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There are new sources and binaries in the usual places. > > If you missed the announcement before, there is now > a Mercurial repository at http://hg.pdos.csail.mit.edu/hg/vx32/ > > The OS X code seems to have stabilized, and it doesn't > require X11 anymore. I think there are OS X bugs tickled > by having signals flying all over the place: I've seen both > pthread_cond_wait and pipe read miss the corresponding > pthread_cond_signal or pipe write. If someone who is > knowledgeable wants to take a look, see 9vx/sched.c. > I've worked around the bugs, so you shouldn't see hangs > anymore. You might see the occasional 1-second hiccup. > > Russ > > > Got this... still seems a little slow here and there on cpu and cp, but they complete. Also I ran ssh2 without factotum and got a crash... not sure if that's expected or not. 247 ssh2: unhandled fault va=0 [110] eip=bee1b cpu0: registers for ssh2 247 FLAGS=0 TRAP=0 ECODE=0 PC=BEE1B USP=F00 AX BX 001339C1 CX DX 000FF2F2 SI DI BP
Re: [9fans] vx32, 9vx 0.12
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:06 AM, David Leimbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Russ Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> There are new sources and binaries in the usual places. >> >> If you missed the announcement before, there is now >> a Mercurial repository at http://hg.pdos.csail.mit.edu/hg/vx32/ >> >> The OS X code seems to have stabilized, and it doesn't >> require X11 anymore. I think there are OS X bugs tickled >> by having signals flying all over the place: I've seen both >> pthread_cond_wait and pipe read miss the corresponding >> pthread_cond_signal or pipe write. If someone who is >> knowledgeable wants to take a look, see 9vx/sched.c. >> I've worked around the bugs, so you shouldn't see hangs >> anymore. You might see the occasional 1-second hiccup. >> >> Russ >> >> >> > Got this... still seems a little slow here and there on cpu and cp, but > they complete. > > Also I ran ssh2 without factotum and got a crash... not sure if that's > expected or not. > > 247 ssh2: unhandled fault va=0 [110] eip=bee1b > cpu0: registers for ssh2 247 > FLAGS=0 TRAP=0 ECODE=0 PC=BEE1B USP=F00 > AX BX 001339C1 CX DX 000FF2F2 > SI DI BP > Also just noticed this on my Terminal where I launched 9vx: [8:28] dave(mt64):..p/9vx-0.12 %> ./9vx.OSX 247 ssh2 fault 0 no segment 258 ssh2 fault 0 no segment Dave
Re: [9fans] vx32, 9vx 0.12
On OSX 9vx consistently sigsegv panics if you quickly resize its window a few times, particluarly before it finishes repainting. This doesn't happen (or is hard to trigger) when rio is not up. Running it under gdb reveals: Program received signal EXC_BAD_ACCESS, Could not access memory. Reason: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE at address: 0x [Switching to process 832 thread 0x5c43] 0x in ?? () (gdb) where #0 0x in ?? () #1 0x9631d78c in DispatchEventToHandlers () #2 0x9631cb9d in SendEventToEventTargetInternal () #3 0x9631ca02 in SendEventToEventTargetWithOptions () #4 0x9633944b in SendBoundsChangeEvent () #5 0x963391f0 in MoveResizeWindowInternal () #6 0x963388c6 in WindowData::SetBounds () #7 0x96434a9b in UpdateWindowBounds () #8 0x96433fb7 in TWindowTracker::TrackWindow () #9 0x96433053 in ResizeWindow () #10 0x963445be in HandleWindowEvent () #11 0x963a2096 in StandardWindowEventHandler () #12 0x9631d763 in DispatchEventToHandlers () #13 0x9631cb9d in SendEventToEventTargetInternal () #14 0x963394ee in SendEventToEventTarget () #15 0x9653b52f in SendEventFromMouseDown () #16 0x963e661f in HandleWindowClick () #17 0x963e63f7 in HandleMouseEvent () #18 0x963a208a in StandardWindowEventHandler () #19 0x9631d763 in DispatchEventToHandlers () #20 0x9631cb9d in SendEventToEventTargetInternal () #21 0x963394ee in SendEventToEventTarget () #22 0x9634c0eb in ToolboxEventDispatcherHandler () #23 0x9631db1c in DispatchEventToHandlers () #24 0x9631cb9d in SendEventToEventTargetInternal () #25 0x963394ee in SendEventToEventTarget () #26 0x963a6504 in ToolboxEventDispatcher () #27 0x963a2d5e in RunApplicationEventLoop () #28 0x000590d3 in screenproc (v=0x0) at 9vx/osx/screen.c:199 #29 0xf2f8 in linkproc () at 9vx/trap.c:484 (gdb) Crash on window resize seems to be not so rare but I didn't see a solution in 5 minutes of googling.
Re: [9fans] 9vx
> The bug is in devsd, though you'll probably have to > add prints to fdisk to find it. > yup. 9vx creates ctl files without a "geometry line". libdisk/disk.c:/^opensd demands it. also, it would be nice if 9vx devsd created an entry in sdctl for each loopback controller. i apologize for not sending a patch. i haven't yet gotten the vx32 compilers working on my machine. i'm sure this is operator error. - erik
Re: [9fans] WYSE Winterm 9150SE graphical problem
> I tried dozens of modes, from 640x480 to 1280x1024, using > 8-bit to 32-bit of colors, and no one seems to work. Can you say more about what you are doing to try a given configuration? At first glance it doesn't seem like there is a native Plan 9 driver for your graphics chip, so if the VESA driver doesn't work you might pursue getting a data sheet and seeing if it looks enough like some other chip. Dave Eckhardt
Re: [9fans] 9vx
> yup. 9vx creates ctl files without a "geometry line". > libdisk/disk.c:/^opensd demands it. thanks. > also, it would be nice if 9vx devsd created an entry > in sdctl for each loopback controller. i intended it to, though perhaps i messed that up. > i apologize for not sending a patch. i haven't yet > gotten the vx32 compilers working on my machine. > i'm sure this is operator error. you don't need them to build 9vx. just "make 9vx/9vx" instead of make. looking forward to a patch. ;-) russ
Re: [9fans] vx32, 9vx 0.12
>> 247 ssh2: unhandled fault va=0 [110] eip=bee1b >> cpu0: registers for ssh2 247 >> FLAGS=0 TRAP=0 ECODE=0 PC=BEE1B USP=F00 >> AX BX 001339C1 CX DX 000FF2F2 >> SI DI BP As long as only ssh2 crashed, this doesn't bother me too much. 9vx does get a little chatty in that case, but that doesn't bother me for now. Can you test whether running ssh2 without factotum also dies on native Plan 9? I have no ssh2 binary. Russ
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
As a first approximation, there are two types of computer users. There are the ones who just want something that does everything they need it to, out of the box, and then there are the ones who don't care so much what it can do at first, but they want to be able to adapt the system to their needs as time goes on. If you want, you can call the former "end users" and the latter "programmers." These camps have very different mindsets. Most of your arguments seem to be about creating a system for the "end users," but as Rob said, Plan 9 is not primarily for them. Plan 9 is for people who want a system they can understand and customize and adapt to their own purposes. I don't mean setting a couple of buttons in a preference dialog, either. I mean writing actual programs to make the system do something its designers did not explicitly anticipate. When the computer doesn't already have some feature, it's a question of thinking "this dumb system should already have that feature" versus thinking "how can I add that feature?" The fact that Plan 9 is not targeted at end users doesn't mean that it's not usable by end users. It just means that the system often needs to be customized (by programmers) to fit the needs of the particular end users. For example, Coraid programmers built software to adapt Plan 9 into a particular kind of end-user storage server. Rangboom adapted Plan 9 into a different kind of end-user storage service. In the past, other companies have done other things. It doesn't have to be companies that are customizing the system for other users. Eric Nichols studies natural language processing and has built a customized acme environment to speed manual translation of text. Nemo created a very interesting computing environment on top of Plan 9 that is popular in his computer science department and used by non-developers. I know a handful of very happy end users of venti, vbackup, and vac. Notice that I haven't defended any of the individual Plan 9 tools--sam, acme, rc, rio, fossil, venti, and so on. There are people with strong opinions on both sides for each of these. The specific details of a particular tool are far less important than the overall simplicity and flexibility of the entire system. That's not to say that no one likes the tools. Plan 9 from User Space exists exactly to provide the tools to a broader audience, and I've heard from a surprising number of people who were thrilled to find a new version of sam. But no individual tool is the point, and the Plan 9 tools alone are not Plan 9. John Lions famously said about Sixth Edition Unix that, ``The whole documentation is not unreasonably transportable in a student's briefcase,'' and the same is true of Plan 9 today. It's a system that people can keep entirely in their head, that they can adapt to their own needs and understand and fix if it breaks. > The fact the UTF-8 was first "implemented" on Plan 9 has nothing to do with > Plan 9's funtionality as an OS. One way to read this sentence is as saying "Plan 9's support of UTF-8 doesn't distinguish it anymore; other OSes now support UTF-8 too." This is almost true, although in my experience none of those systems approach Plan 9 for how everything UTF-8 just works out of the box. (I still don't know how to put UTF-8 in file names in Linux, for example, or to tell whether a given file name is intended to be interpreted as UTF-8 or as Latin-1 or as some other character set.) Another way to read this sentence is as saying "UTF-8 could have been first implemented just as easily on some other OS as on Plan 9." This is the interpretation that Rob was replying to, and it's simply not true. UTF-8 is as clean as it is because Ken Thompson came up with a clean design, but that design alone would not have been enough. Rob's history at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/utf-8-history.txt doesn't emphasize this as much as it could, but it does mention it: in order for the design to be an acceptable proposal, it had to be implemented in a real system. Ken designed UTF-8 on a Wednesday night, and by lunch on Saturday, Ken and Rob had completely converted Plan 9--libraries, programs, graphics, and text files--to use it. That was necessary to get the proposal accepted, and there are very few systems out there in which something like that would be possible, that quickly. That's a key strength of Plan 9. It is powerful enough to use well, simple enough to understand completely, and small enough to make wholesale changes to the system quickly. In its early days, Unix was like that--Ken implemented pipes and converted all the existing programs like grep to act as filters overnight--but not anymore. > When I came to actually "use" Plan 9 I found out the two interfaces I'd > heard about, i.e. rc and rio, are both awkward despite how everybody on > 9fans thought they were such glorious climaxes of simplicity and usability > and how everybody would bash Bash. If I were to save o
Re: [9fans] vx32, 9vx 0.12
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Russ Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> 247 ssh2: unhandled fault va=0 [110] eip=bee1b > >> cpu0: registers for ssh2 247 > >> FLAGS=0 TRAP=0 ECODE=0 PC=BEE1B USP=F00 > >> AX BX 001339C1 CX DX 000FF2F2 > >> SI DI BP > > As long as only ssh2 crashed, this doesn't bother me too much. > 9vx does get a little chatty in that case, but that doesn't bother > me for now. > > Can you test whether running ssh2 without factotum also dies > on native Plan 9? I have no ssh2 binary. > > Russ > > Yes only ssh2 is crashing... it didn't do this before .12 to the best of my recollection, that I'm getting SEGV errors on my terminal where I started 9vx seems important too: [8:28] dave(mt64):..p/9vx-0.12 %> ./9vx.OSX 247 ssh2 fault 0 no segment 258 ssh2 fault 0 no segment ssh2 can be found in /n/sources/contrib/john and it works very nicely for my needs so far.
Re: [9fans] WYSE Winterm 9150SE graphical problem
> Can you say more about what you are doing to try a given > configuration? I tried xga, vesa, multisync and other modes. The result is the same, my screen become blank and displays "no input signal". > At first glance it doesn't seem like there is a native > Plan 9 driver for your graphics chip, so if the VESA > driver doesn't work you might pursue getting a data > sheet and seeing if it looks enough like some other > chip. I many cases, the graphical interface does not refuse to start, like when the chip is not supported, but displays a blank screen. I had never seen that before. My chip does not seem to be supported by VESA driver. What can I try to change in the VESA driver? -- David du Colombier
Re: [9fans] 9vx
rc bug. it appears something is going wrong with rc's local assignments. ifs has the usual value. ; font=/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font rio rio: can't access /lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font: bad character in file name: '/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font' ; unicode 0001 ; echo /lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font /lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod14.font ; x=/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font ; whatis x x=/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod14.font - erik
[9fans] rc bug
> rc bug. please put non-9vx bugs in their own threads. thanks. > it appears something is going wrong > with rc's local assignments. ifs has the usual > value. > > ; font=/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font rio > rio: can't access /lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font: bad character in file > name: '/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font' > ; unicode > 0001 > ; echo /lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font > /lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod14.font > ; x=/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font > ; whatis x > x=/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod14.font % diff -c /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/rc/exec.c . /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/rc/exec.c:751,759 - ./exec.c:751,761 } deglob(runq->argv->words->word); runq->local = newvar(strdup(runq->argv->words->word), runq->local); - runq->local->val = copywords(runq->argv->next->words, (word *)0); - runq->local->changed = 1; poplist(); + globlist(); + runq->local->val = runq->argv->words; + runq->local->changed = 1; + runq->argv->words = 0; poplist(); } % russ
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
Uriel wrote: On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Federico G. Benavento <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That has a very long beard! Isn`t programming without endusers just like wanking? how is that related to Plan 9 being for programmers? That means that Plan 9 is like porn for hackers. uriel I would say that is hard core stuff for hackers. (Some need that urgently!) bblochl
Re: [9fans] space glenda - in acrylic
http://www.cafepress.com/leetchic Here my 9 stuff.
Re: [9fans] WYSE Winterm 9150SE graphical problem
>> Can you say more about what you are doing to try a given >> configuration? > I tried xga, vesa, multisync and other modes. Can you say exactly what you mean by "tried xga" and "tried vesa"? Dave Eckhardt
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 4:47 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On the contrary, while I do like using keyboard I'm very much a "polymath." > Mouses are very good input devices for certain applications. The way the > mouse is used--or "abused"--in rio and acme poses a problem. It is the "easy > way out" to attribute that to my--probably Windows-doped--taste. There "is" > a least common denominator that accommodates the basics of all tastes, and > "that" is lacking in rio. I'm glad you are explicitly basing your claims. again, I'm glad to see you consider your audience on this list to be outside *your* common denominator. I'm even more and more glad to see I got basic tastes in common with a prisoner in the other side of the planet walking in the deathrow. thanks for the enlightenment. iru
[9fans] an RTFM moment
I'm doing something stupid here, I know it, but can not recall what: term% venti/findscore -v arenas 8f5e7e8bd708abb329d97c1773cac871b5daabcb reading directory for arena=arenas00 with 195154 entries reading directory for arena=arenas01 with 1587 entries found at clump=1586 with type=16 size=300 csize=70 position=2531472 found 1 occurrences of 8f5e7e8bd708abb329d97c1773cac871b5daabcb term% fossil/flfmt -v 8f5e7e8bd708abb329d97c1773cac871b5daabcb fossil fs header block already exists; are you sure? [y/n]: y fatal error: ventiRead 8f5e7e8bd708abb329d97c1773cac871b5daabcb (1) failed: no block with score 8f5e7e8bd708abb329d97c1773cac871b5daabcb/16 exists term% I've done this before, but those neurons got re-initialized with other, much less valuable data, I think. ron
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 4:47 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Window decorations (as they're called in X-speak) are not "mere > decorations," they're useful. The two button (+/- wheel) mouse is prevalent > because for most people only the index and middle finger are robust enough. > The ring finger is never on par with them, except of course with the > unnecessary adjustment Plan 9 users seem to go through. Assigning the middle > finger to both second and third buttons is another solution which is equally > uncomfortable. > I see you have been doing a lot of research on ergonomics. > Microsoft certainly has put a lot of money into researching human > interfacing and the outcome is free for all to get and implement. Don't > think for a moment that because it's Microsoft it has to be taken lightly. > Hundreds of small rounded corners have made the Windows GUI experience a > much better experience than that of "any" alternative GUI. > of course I agree your personal opinions could be taken as representatives of human kind's opinions but, just in case, would you mind showing the results of your great research on the subject? thanks, iru
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > All these could "theoretically" become "supported" (that's different from > being "included") in an OS if it manages to gather enough public momentum. > Without that you can do only your "serious" stuff which excludes quite some > of the "good" stuff. Public momentum comes from providing "the public" with > enough incentive so that a small portion of that public actually writes what > the rest will need. > like you do with your system, right? > Incidentally, I find it a bit hypocritical to do "research" (read: find out > how a system can Get New Jobs Done (tm)) on a system but turn to another > whenever one actually needs to Get Something Done (tm). > sorry if I can't write a flash player in two minutes. it won't happen again. iru
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A stand-alone Plan 9 system amounts in conceptual complexity "for > the user" to at least three interconnected machines. Very little has been > done to cover that. > does distributed gets translated to something else in your web browser? iru
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:01 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "For Dummies" books are essentially non sequiturs arising from marketing > schemes. RTFM is really the way to go, but you need to have an "incentive," > a "promise," to RTFM. Obviously, sometimes the incentive is replaced by a > compelling to obey company/university/institution policies. I'm glad to see curiosity or research are not incentive nor promise. thanks, iru
[9fans] mac os x: x11 versus native when chording mouse leaves window
I'm sorry I'm not contributing code, and that the following is mac osx specific. and it is only an observation. (and I'm posting it why? because I'm looking for confirmation, maybe, and to point out one possible unexpected advantage of X11 over native.) there appears to be a difference between handling of X11 windows and native windows regarding what happens when - mouse cursor is in window - you start making a selection with b1 - while making the selection you cross the window border - outside the window you press b2 or b3 to finish the chord with the x11 window everything works as expected, at least on 10.4.11 with the native window the chord is not finished but instead the window under the mouse gets select (or you end up in finder). this seems to be independent of the actual application (acme-sac, 9vx). the non-working with native window I encounter almost every day; that it does work with X I only found minutes ago. regarding 'code, code, code' I was annoyed to the point where I started to wonder whether it would make sense to add something similar to the 'stay in the scroll bar while scrolling' feature, but then to stay in the window while selecting. to my surprise I found it actually working ok with X11 window. Axel.
Re: [9fans] an RTFM moment
> I'm doing something stupid here, I know it, but can not recall what: > term% venti/findscore -v arenas 8f5e7e8bd708abb329d97c1773cac871b5daabcb > reading directory for arena=arenas00 with 195154 entries > reading directory for arena=arenas01 with 1587 entries > found at clump=1586 with type=16 size=300 csize=70 position=2531472 > found 1 occurrences of 8f5e7e8bd708abb329d97c1773cac871b5daabcb > term% fossil/flfmt -v 8f5e7e8bd708abb329d97c1773cac871b5daabcb fossil > fs header block already exists; are you sure? [y/n]: y > fatal error: ventiRead 8f5e7e8bd708abb329d97c1773cac871b5daabcb (1) > failed: no block with score > 8f5e7e8bd708abb329d97c1773cac871b5daabcb/16 exists > term% > > I've done this before, but those neurons got re-initialized with > other, much less valuable data, I think. Try running venti/read 8f5e7e8bd708abb329d97c1773cac871b5daabcb I suspect that flfmt is not connecting to the venti server that uses the "arenas" file but rather to some other server on the network. If that's the case, you need to either set $venti or give flfmt the -h option. Russ
Re: [9fans] rc bug
>> rc bug. > > please put non-9vx bugs in their own threads. thanks. i thought it was. sorry. in any event, 9vx ps has the quirk that it thinks every command that hasn't set its args has 1 argument, argv[0] consisting of the entire argument list. unless my kernel is somehow out-of-date, this is 9vx specific. ☺ - erik
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
commentary? sad. stop! please?
Re: [9fans] 9vx ps bug
> in any event, 9vx ps has the quirk that it thinks every command > that hasn't set its args has 1 argument, argv[0] consisting of > the entire argument list. > > unless my kernel is somehow out-of-date, this is 9vx specific. yes it is. i did not understand the format of p->args when i rewrote sysexec. fixed in hg. russ
Re: [9fans] /lib/font fonts in troff
To be honest, it's that 1 glyph that I prefer. It looks much more unambiguous than the one in troff's CW and you can find it in just about any Bell Labs-produced book that uses the font. On Jul 1, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Russ Cox wrote: P. S. I don't know what font is in /lib/font/bit/courier, but it's not exactly Courier. The A is missing the top serif and the @ is much squarer than the usual Courier.
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Jul 1, 2008, at 9:32 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eric, I don't know what this "audio" thing you CS/CE type researchers are using but us lowlifes just need Firefox and Excel before we can use Plan 9. I'm afraid that until you can provide those, Joe Public will never use Plan 9 and it will be forever doomed to run only on supercomputers and storage systems and in research settings. -> WARNING: It's time to be brutally honest again. Take a deep breath. <- I'm 15. I run Plan 9 on a 20" iMac in the corner of my room at home. I hardly use Excel, and I don't usually browse the web on Plan 9 (or with Firefox - I use Safari on Mac). Yet I find myself using Plan 9 50% of my computing day. The commonest two things I do are coding and document typesetting. I like Plan 9's completeness of programming environment (I'd like to see Ruby beat lib*) and the authenticity of the typesetting tools (the original reason I started with Plan 9) was compelling. Yep. I'm a nerd. But I'm not in a CS/CR (at least not yet). And yes, I do normal stuff too. I browse the web. I listen to music. I watch movies. And unlike most people my age, I go to school and succeed. (I don't play sports because I have a vision disability.) Please reconsider your statement.
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
(But sarcasm seems to escape you :-)) On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Pietro Gagliardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Jul 1, 2008, at 9:32 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >> Eric, I don't know what this "audio" thing you CS/CE type researchers >> are using but us lowlifes just need Firefox and Excel before we can >> use Plan 9. I'm afraid that until you can provide those, Joe Public >> will never use Plan 9 and it will be forever doomed to run only on >> supercomputers and storage systems and in research settings. > > -> WARNING: It's time to be brutally honest again. Take a deep breath. <- > > I'm 15. I run Plan 9 on a 20" iMac in the corner of my room at home. I > hardly use Excel, and I don't usually browse the web on Plan 9 (or with > Firefox - I use Safari on Mac). Yet I find myself using Plan 9 50% of my > computing day. The commonest two things I do are coding and document > typesetting. I like Plan 9's completeness of programming environment (I'd > like to see Ruby beat lib*) and the authenticity of the typesetting tools > (the original reason I started with Plan 9) was compelling. > > Yep. I'm a nerd. But I'm not in a CS/CR (at least not yet). And yes, I do > normal stuff too. I browse the web. I listen to music. I watch movies. And > unlike most people my age, I go to school and succeed. (I don't play sports > because I have a vision disability.) > > Please reconsider your statement. > > >
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
> On Jul 1, 2008, at 9:32 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Eric, I don't know what this "audio" thing you CS/CE type researchers >> are using but us lowlifes just need Firefox and Excel before we can >> use Plan 9. I'm afraid that until you can provide those, Joe Public >> will never use Plan 9 and it will be forever doomed to run only on >> supercomputers and storage systems and in research settings. > > -> WARNING: It's time to be brutally honest again. Take a deep breath. > <- > > I'm 15. I run Plan 9 on a 20" iMac in the corner of my room at home. I > hardly use Excel, and I don't usually browse the web on Plan 9 (or > with Firefox - I use Safari on Mac). Yet I find myself using Plan 9 > 50% of my computing day. The commonest two things I do are coding and > document typesetting. I like Plan 9's completeness of programming > environment (I'd like to see Ruby beat lib*) and the authenticity of > the typesetting tools (the original reason I started with Plan 9) was > compelling. > > Yep. I'm a nerd. But I'm not in a CS/CR (at least not yet). And yes, I > do normal stuff too. I browse the web. I listen to music. I watch > movies. And unlike most people my age, I go to school and succeed. (I > don't play sports because I have a vision disability.) > > Please reconsider your statement. Pietro, once again you've completely failed to see the intent of a message. I was pre-empting Eris' idiot complaints by pretending audio was too research-y and complicated for the "Joe Public" he is always referring to. I wasn't asking for a "brutally honest" description of your computing habits, although some of the information does explain your previous patterns of posting. You apparently succeed at school; didn't they teach you about sarcasm, satire, irony, all the various methods people use to insult and mock each other without actually coming out and saying, "I hate you and hope you die"? John
Re: [9fans] rc bug
I saw something similar before, but unfortunately, the patch below
doesn't fix it.
cpu% fn 'file?' { test -f $* }
cpu% 'file?' /LICENSE
cpu% echo $status
cpu% 'file?' /foo
cpu% echo $status
test 145387: false
cpu% rc
cpu% 'file?' /LICENSE
rc: can't open /env/fn#file?: bad character in file name: '/env/fn#file?'
file?: '/bin/file?' file does not exist
cpu% 'file?' /LICENSE
file?: '/bin/file?' file does not exist
cpu% unicode
0001
cpu%
>> it appears something is going wrong
>> with rc's local assignments. ifs has the usual
>> value.
>>
>> ; font=/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font rio
>> rio: can't access /lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font: bad character in file
>> name: '/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font'
>> ; unicode
>> 0001
>> ; echo /lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font
>> /lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod14.font
>> ; x=/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod*.font
>> ; whatis x
>> x=/lib/font/bit/cyberbit/mod14.font
>
> % diff -c /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/rc/exec.c .
> /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/rc/exec.c:751,759 - ./exec.c:751,761
> }
> deglob(runq->argv->words->word);
> runq->local = newvar(strdup(runq->argv->words->word), runq->local);
> - runq->local->val = copywords(runq->argv->next->words, (word *)0);
> - runq->local->changed = 1;
> poplist();
> + globlist();
> + runq->local->val = runq->argv->words;
> + runq->local->changed = 1;
> + runq->argv->words = 0;
> poplist();
> }
>
> %
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
The meat of this post: 1. Since these series of postings are considered, for some reason incomprehensible to me, "trolling" I'll simply stop posting. Good luck to y'all. 2. The core point which still hasn't gone to a single 9fans' head is that you either comply with public demand or stop asking for public recognition. And the public is not "a bunch of idiots." This thread's original post asked why Plan 9 isn't recommended on Slashdot even for tasks it seems to be good at. I responded with my opinion: Plan 9 in its current form is and will always remain a "niche" OS, with a rather tight niche. 3. More than a few 9fans tried to ridicule me. Such attitude won't get them very far I assure them, even if they have a valid message to convey. I hope they've at least had a good laugh--that makes me feel the whole affair wasn't a waste of time. 4. The apple with καλλιστι on it is totally Russ', for he posted the most sensible response. Thank you Russ. 5. Oh, and that thing on (4) is the Discordian transliteration of whatever was written on the apple. Greek text input to a mail client on Windows. Check if you can read it on the "mother of UTF-8." If you do you're "almost" there, if you don't... --On Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:41 AM + "Federico G. Benavento" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: eris, stop trolling and sending apples to the parties you're not invited. -- Federico G. Benavento (sent with opera 9.5 via linuxemu+equis) Challenging is not trolling, but I'll keep quiet if it suits you better. --On Tuesday, July 01, 2008 1:19 PM +0200 hiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Haha, sarcasm at it's finest. Eris, you are my hero. -- hiro Is "that" sarcastic, too? I hope not, for that'd break my heart. --On Tuesday, July 01, 2008 10:06 AM -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: lowlifes like me will use your system if it can Get Their Job Done (tm) or they'll migrate to another system that can. They won't bother coding. then migrate, already ... john I did. So did many others. Plan 9's loss, though I don't expect "you" to admit it. --On Tuesday, July 01, 2008 5:36 PM -0300 Iruata Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Eris Discordia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: All these could "theoretically" become "supported" (that's different from being "included") in an OS if it manages to gather enough public momentum. Without that you can do only your "serious" stuff which excludes quite some of the "good" stuff. Public momentum comes from providing "the public" with enough incentive so that a small portion of that public actually writes what the rest will need. like you do with your system, right? I don't. I've got no "system." Others do and others did, and they succeeded and they have larger happier user bases. That, of course, was never "intended" for Plan 9 you seem to imply. Incidentally, I find it a bit hypocritical to do "research" (read: find out how a system can Get New Jobs Done (tm)) on a system but turn to another whenever one actually needs to Get Something Done (tm). sorry if I can't write a flash player in two minutes. it won't happen again. Last chance for you! Seriously though, you had over two decades to first catch "down" and then catch "up" and you didn't. It wasn't your intention they say.
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
If only we transmitted messages by voice. It's much easier to understand the sarcastic nature. (And you need to get me in a good mood.) On Jul 1, 2008, at 5:53 PM, Dan Cross wrote: (But sarcasm seems to escape you :-)) On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Pietro Gagliardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Jul 1, 2008, at 9:32 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eric, I don't know what this "audio" thing you CS/CE type researchers are using but us lowlifes just need Firefox and Excel before we can use Plan 9. I'm afraid that until you can provide those, Joe Public will never use Plan 9 and it will be forever doomed to run only on supercomputers and storage systems and in research settings. -> WARNING: It's time to be brutally honest again. Take a deep breath. <- I'm 15. I run Plan 9 on a 20" iMac in the corner of my room at home. I hardly use Excel, and I don't usually browse the web on Plan 9 (or with Firefox - I use Safari on Mac). Yet I find myself using Plan 9 50% of my computing day. The commonest two things I do are coding and document typesetting. I like Plan 9's completeness of programming environment (I'd like to see Ruby beat lib*) and the authenticity of the typesetting tools (the original reason I started with Plan 9) was compelling. Yep. I'm a nerd. But I'm not in a CS/CR (at least not yet). And yes, I do normal stuff too. I browse the web. I listen to music. I watch movies. And unlike most people my age, I go to school and succeed. (I don't play sports because I have a vision disability.) Please reconsider your statement.
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
> 4. The apple with καλλιστι on it is totally Russ', for he posted > the most sensible response. Thank you Russ. > > 5. Oh, and that thing on (4) is the Discordian transliteration of whatever > was written on the apple. Greek text input to a mail client on Windows. > Check if you can read it on the "mother of UTF-8." If you do you're > "almost" there, if you don't... i have been using non-latin characters with plan 9 tools on unix and later on plan 9 since 1991 or so both in filenames and data. the fact that utf-8 just works even in environments not designed for it, is a testament to its excellent design. unfortunately, unix tools no longer do the right thing with utf-8. they've gotten too smart for that. locales get in the way. - erik
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:20 AM, Uriel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That means that Plan 9 is like porn for hackers. > Now when can I get that on a t-shirt? :) -J
Re: [9fans] rc bug
> I saw something similar before, but unfortunately, the patch below > doesn't fix it. I submitted a patch. diff ./io.c /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/rc/io.c 94c94 < for(t = s;*t;t++) if(*t >= 0 && needsrcquote(*t)) break; --- > for(t = s;*t;t++) if(!wordchr(*t)) break; diff ./plan9.c /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/rc/plan9.c 278c278 < pfmt(fd, "fn %q %s\n", v->name, v->fn[v->pc-1].s); --- > pfmt(fd, "fn %s %s\n", v->name, > v->fn[v->pc-1].s);
Re: [9fans] rc bug
> I submitted a patch.
>
> diff ./io.c /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/rc/io.c
> 94c94
> < for(t = s;*t;t++) if(*t >= 0 && needsrcquote(*t)) break;
> ---
>> for(t = s;*t;t++) if(!wordchr(*t)) break;
> diff ./plan9.c /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/rc/plan9.c
> 278c278
> < pfmt(fd, "fn %q %s\n", v->name,
> v->fn[v->pc-1].s);
> ---
>> pfmt(fd, "fn %s %s\n", v->name,
>> v->fn[v->pc-1].s);
i don't think that fixes it. try this test on plan 9
fn 'test?' {echo}
lc /env
- erik
Re: [9fans] rc bug
> i don't think that fixes it. try this test on plan 9
>
> fn 'test?' {echo}
> lc /env
it does, unless you build an 8.out and test it
without installing it as /386/bin/rc.
when you invoked lc, a shell script, that ran the buggy
/386/bin/rc, which polluted the environment.
in fact you have to run lc twice to cause the problem:
the first rc reads the fn out of the environment and
writes it back incorrectly, and the second one then
gets confused.
vx32% 8.out
broken! rfork e
broken! fn 'test?' {echo}
broken! cat /env/'fn#test?'
fn 'test?' {echo}
broken! /n/sources/plan9/386/bin/rc -c exit
broken! cat /env/'fn#test?'
fn test? {echo}
broken! /n/sources/plan9/386/bin/rc -c exit
rc: can't open /env/fn#test?: bad character in file name: '/env/fn#test?'
broken!
notice the lack of quotes around test? after buggy rc runs.
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
// 5. Oh, and that thing on (4) is the Discordian transliteration of whatever
// was written on the apple. Greek text input to a mail client on Windows.
// Check if you can read it on the "mother of UTF-8." If you do you're
// "almost" there, if you don't...
I was surprised by this, so I actually fired up my XP install. Yes, it looks
like you finally can get some non-latin characters into thing. Good for
them. It looks like the command prompt even *almost* gets it right:
?α???στ?
Well, three characters for eight isn't so bad, right? And it's just glyphs,
right? Surely the gui stuff does better. Let's stick it in the search box...
ooo, look at that! All characters show up! And the search... looks for
"?a???st?". Uh, what? Note the transposition into roughly similar latin
characters. It clearly has some understanding of what the characters
are, but has decided to look for something else. IE and Firefox will let
me search for such things properly, but (as with the καλλιστι in your
original message) the tops of many of the returned glyphs are cut off.
That is to say, the Unicode is *almost* there.
Conversely, in Plan 9, the following involves a number of tools
certainly not designed for the task, but works just fine:
{echo /καλλιστι ; echo '-/^$/,+/^$/'} |
sam -d `{grep -l [Α-ω] /mail/fs/mbox/*/body} >[2] /dev/null |
sed -n '2,$p'
I'm curious how you'd do something similar elsewhere.
You really just haven't bothered, have you?
Anthony
Re: [9fans] rc bug
- 9fans.
>> i don't think that fixes it. try this test on plan 9
>>
>> fn 'test?' {echo}
>> lc /env
>
> it does, unless you build an 8.out and test it
> without installing it as /386/bin/rc.
> when you invoked lc, a shell script, that ran the buggy
> /386/bin/rc, which polluted the environment.
> in fact you have to run lc twice to cause the problem:
> the first rc reads the fn out of the environment and
> writes it back incorrectly, and the second one then
> gets confused.
pfft. i'm feeling so smart today!
doesn't a similar change need to be made in
win32.c and simple.c?
also, does Xfn need to call deglob() on each function
name?
- erik
[9fans] forgotten rc hack
some time ago, i had a want for es-style subscripting like
; x=(1 2 3)
; echo $x(1-2)
1 2
; echo $x(2-)
2 3
; x = $x(2-)# shift x
i'd forgotten all about it. the following replacement for
exec.c:subwords() is all that you need to enable this.
- erik
word*
copynwords(word *a, word *tail, int n)
{
word *v = 0, **end;
for(end=&v;a && n-- != 0;a = a->next,end=&(*end)->next)
*end = newword(a->word, 0);
*end = tail;
return v;
}
word*
subwords(word *val, int len, word *sub, word *a)
{
int n, m;
char *s;
if(!sub)
return a;
s = sub->word;
deglob(s);
a = subwords(val, len, sub->next, a);
n = 0; m = 0;
while('0'<=*s && *s<='9') n = n*10+ *s++ -'0';
if(*s++ == '-'){
if(*s) while('0'<=*s && *s<='9') m = m*10+ *s++ -'0';
elsem = len;
m -= n;
}
if(n<1 || lennext;
return copynwords(val, a, m+1);
}
[9fans] p9p on Linux/mips?
Has anyone looked at getting p9p running on linux/mips? Any results, even if just dire warnings? Anthony
Re: [9fans] an RTFM moment
it was pilot error, I am embarrassed to say I forgot the buildindex step! Wow, I've got my venti and fossil in 9vx now, life is improving fast. ron
Re: [9fans] WYSE Winterm 9150SE graphical problem
> Can you say exactly what you mean by "tried xga" and > "tried vesa"? I modified the lines "monitor=" and "vgasize=" in the plan9.ini of the WYSE, located in /cfg/pxe/ on the authserver, then I rebooted the client. I also tried to run aux/vga when the client was running. -- David du Colombier
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
> It's fine, if you're fine with it ;-) Do you ever visit any AJAX enabled > websites? Do you consider AJAX a superfluous technology? Do you switch to > your "other OS" machine--or reboot your current machine--if and when you > visit GMail's pages (at least to enable IMAP access for the first time)? > What's your opinion on good ol' non-standard CSS? Won't you ever want to > use one of these new "content delivery" systems, such as Microsoft > Silverlight or Adobe Flash? You're putting the cart before the horse. Of course there is "utility" computing out there and of course there is Microsoft to fill that niche. And Linux to follow in its footsteps. But there is a frightening prospect if you assume that utility computing is all that computing is about, namely that only massive programming effort is required to produce any sort of computing product. Let me try this as a comparison. Less than a hundred years ago, Bugatti manufactured one motorvehicle a year, from scratch. I'm not sure how many persons were involved, the impression I have from hearsay is that it was a single individual. Today, you need the might of the Chinese or Indian manufacturers to enter the motorvehicle manufacturing business. Or huge investment effort for the new eco-friendly vehicles. Utility computing is perfectly fine as long as it is balanced by original development, but it is poisonous if it preclueds any original participation. Open Source is one form of rebellion, but it lacks the robust foundations of sound program development. Plan 9 is a much smaller, better designed approach. I'm sure we won't see Plan 9 deployed widely any time soon, it lacks the "utility" nature of the contenders and I'm sorry to see that happening, but that is the nature of the beast. Had Plan 9 caught the imagination of the "masses", it would have grown the same tumors as Linux, and that would have defeated its nature. Think Pascal: it is hardly the language of choice today, but the principles it enshrines have totally altered the programming language landscape. C is the utility version, and C++ and Java its obvious offsprings. Alef has been abandoned and Limbo remains a very specialised language, but they will also leave their mark. So, I think this dicussion is based on a premise whose value is purely emotional: we'd all be more comfortable if Plan 9 was widely accepted, but there is no intellectual reason for it to be so. Rob Pike says the same thing in a nutshell, but in reality it is the philosophy behind Plan 9 that needs spreading: careful design, generalised objects, simplicity rather than bulk, etc. Not Rio or Acme, Fossil or Venti, but the environment in which they can thrive. The environment in which Mozilla is difficult to create so that simpler solutions can be sought. ++L
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Utility computing is perfectly fine as long as it is balanced by original development, but it is poisonous if it preclueds any original participation. Open Source is one form of rebellion, but it lacks the robust foundations of sound program development. Plan 9 is a much smaller, better designed approach. I'm sure we won't see Plan 9 O yeahhh umm yeah like r u 3l3t3? Err uh yeah or is it 1337? contenders and I'm sorry to see that happening, but that is the nature of the beast. Had Plan 9 caught the imagination of the "masses", it would have grown the same tumors as Linux, and that would have defeated its nature. Think Pascal: it is hardly the language of choice today, but the principles it enshrines have totally altered the programming language landscape. C is the utility version, and C++ and Java its obvious Sure uhhh yeah whatever you say Or was it Algol? offsprings. Alef has been abandoned and Limbo remains a very specialised language, but they will also leave their mark. So does a dog pissing on a fire hydrant. So, I think this dicussion is based on a premise whose value is purely emotional: we'd all be more comfortable if Plan 9 was widely accepted, but there is no intellectual reason for it to be so. Rob Pike says the same thing in a nutshell, but in reality it is the philosophy behind Plan 9 that needs spreading: careful design, generalised objects, simplicity rather than bulk, etc. Not Rio or Acme, Fossil or Venti, but the environment in which they can thrive. The environment in which Mozilla is difficult to create so that simpler solutions can be sought. Mozilla didn't create the web. The web created Mozilla.
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
I have no idea what that discordian crap is nor what your intentions are, but I do know that you're either a troll or complete idiot. what do you try to achieve ... it is the wrong'em boyo
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
> Mozilla didn't create the web. The web created Mozilla. just change Mozilla to Mosaic and see how P→Q suddenly becomes Q→P
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
He's clearly some ESR clone that's trying to get his "hip right wing guy" polemic on. Move aside, John Malkovich, there's a new a**hole on the map. =) Its obvious to me now that Linux is a victim of its own popularity and development model. I have always preferred BSD's way of doing things and the folks that support it.. except for Theo, that is.. I stepped away from Linux around Kernel 1.2.13, since then the amount of crap that has been dumped into the kernel is simply astonishing. I am 100% sure that, now that vmware runs on OS X, I will be finished with linux for good once I get back to the states.I honestly think that the #1 goal of linux kernel developers is to make sure that the kernel takes 20 minutes to build on whatever the current fastest processor is. To quote dmr: "The rational prisoner exploits the weak places, creates order from chaos: instead collectives like FSF vindicate their jailers by building cells almost compatible with existing ones, albeit it with more features." Linux has become a Disneyland supermax parody of what it set out to imitate. As for Plan9's technical issues, I would rather have something small, fast, and complete for the things that i need to do than millions of lines of code that I don't need, want, or know about doing God knows what in the background; Plan9's license issues just gives scientists the excuse to pretend to be politicians. The only thing worse than a politician is an armchair politician. The Noam Chomsky thing only works if you focus on issues that really matter... Oh and being damned brilliant helps, too. jcw On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Federico G. Benavento <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have no idea what that discordian crap is nor what your > intentions are, but I do know that you're either a troll > or complete idiot. > > what do you try to achieve ... it is the wrong'em boyo > > >
Re: [9fans] sad commentary
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 2:27 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is a very good point. I mostly learned Unix in a corporate > environment, but the same logic holds: somebody else had set > up and maintained the systems. > > // I'm afraid there's not much we can do about this. > > Other, obviously, than getting uni types to use it there. Plan 9 > (like Inferno) has quite a bit to offer from pedagogical view. Also, public 9grids. Though judging by gdiaz's experiences with sirviente, there's a bit of work to be done in that area - I get the impression things are fairly unstable once the machine gets under memory pressure. -sqweek
