Re: [9fans] 3D graphics as a filesystem

[Andrew Nazarov]

Chris, if you find something interesting, please share the knowledge. A few
days ago I asked to myself the same question, but Google didn't help me
much.

On 13 October 2016 at 02:47, Chris McGee  wrote:

> Cool. Do you have any code that you can share for that? What does the file
> protocol look like?
>
> On Oct 12, 2016, at 7:17 PM, Jules Merit  gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yeah I prototyped draw3d with 9vx driver to host GPU on Linux system.
> MesajGL if 9p file exists it supports mode of that name to transfer to gpu.
> It helps if you have DooM handy to try writing it in rc.
>
> On Oct 12, 2016 4:06 PM, "Chris McGee"  wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I am looking at the specs for a GPU and was thinking about something
>> analogous to /dev/draw, but for 3D graphics. Kind of like OpenGL except
>> exposed as a filesystem so that it is network mountable and programmed in
>> any language (even rc).
>>
>> Does anyone know if this kind of thing has been done before for plan 9?
>> Any relevant papers or documents out there?
>>
>> My first thought involves representing elements in the graphics pipeline
>> as files where you can write shader language code. Also a vertex file to
>> write or read floating point vertex data. Maybe something more abstract
>> would be better with scene graph and camera controls would be better match
>> for a filesystem implementation.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Chris
>>
>

Re: [9fans] 3D graphics as a filesystem

[Chris McGee]

Cool. Do you have any code that you can share for that? What does the file 
protocol look like?

> On Oct 12, 2016, at 7:17 PM, Jules Merit  
> wrote:
> 
> Yeah I prototyped draw3d with 9vx driver to host GPU on Linux system. MesajGL 
> if 9p file exists it supports mode of that name to transfer to gpu. It helps 
> if you have DooM handy to try writing it in rc.
> 
> 
>> On Oct 12, 2016 4:06 PM, "Chris McGee"  wrote:
>> Hello All,
>> 
>> I am looking at the specs for a GPU and was thinking about something 
>> analogous to /dev/draw, but for 3D graphics. Kind of like OpenGL except 
>> exposed as a filesystem so that it is network mountable and programmed in 
>> any language (even rc).
>> 
>> Does anyone know if this kind of thing has been done before for plan 9? Any 
>> relevant papers or documents out there?
>> 
>> My first thought involves representing elements in the graphics pipeline as 
>> files where you can write shader language code. Also a vertex file to write 
>> or read floating point vertex data. Maybe something more abstract would be 
>> better with scene graph and camera controls would be better match for a 
>> filesystem implementation.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Chris

Re: [9fans] 3D graphics as a filesystem

[Stanley Lieber]

"James A. Robinson"  wrote:

>I wonder if the Inferno guys did anything like that.
>
>There was a youtube video from John Floren talking about his work
>replacing
>Java w/ Inferno on an Android phone and I think he mentioned some ideas
>he
>had consider w/re to driving graphics using a 9p interface.


You might also check out the work on Harvey.

sl

Re: [9fans] What does your fileserver consist of?

[Jules Merit]

What happens when you loose the auth server?

On Oct 12, 2016 3:41 PM, "Brantley Coile"  wrote:

> :)
>
> You would be a popular with your significant other as I was with my wife
> when I had a PDP-11 in the living room.
>
> > On Oct 12, 2016, at 6:38 PM, James A. Robinson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Ha, looks familiar:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EtherDrive
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EtherDrive#/media/File:
> EtherDriveCluster.JPG
> >
> > Very neat, thank you for the description.   But it's probably a bit
> > more than I can fit into my closet. :-P
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 11:31 AM Brantley Coile 
> wrote:
> >
> > SouthSuite’s production stack, plus a little.
> >
> > The top box, “wrens”, is a diskless file server, work done by the Great
> Quanstro. It’s Ken’s file server that uses ATA-over-Ethernet for its
> storage. The bottom of the picture are two SRX storage shelves, “300” and
> “200”, that are mirrors of each other. The machine “dmr” is our auth
> server, and “research” is our CPU server. Eric’s 9atom setup is mixed in
> there as well.
> >
> > They will pry IL out of my cold, dead fingers.
> >
> > Obviously this was all constructed, for the most part, out of old Coraid
> SRX junk that was laying around. Dmr was the first equipment purchased for
> SouthSuite proper.
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] 3D graphics as a filesystem

[Jules Merit]

Yeah I prototyped draw3d with 9vx driver to host GPU on Linux system.
MesajGL if 9p file exists it supports mode of that name to transfer to gpu.
It helps if you have DooM handy to try writing it in rc.

On Oct 12, 2016 4:06 PM, "Chris McGee"  wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I am looking at the specs for a GPU and was thinking about something
> analogous to /dev/draw, but for 3D graphics. Kind of like OpenGL except
> exposed as a filesystem so that it is network mountable and programmed in
> any language (even rc).
>
> Does anyone know if this kind of thing has been done before for plan 9?
> Any relevant papers or documents out there?
>
> My first thought involves representing elements in the graphics pipeline
> as files where you can write shader language code. Also a vertex file to
> write or read floating point vertex data. Maybe something more abstract
> would be better with scene graph and camera controls would be better match
> for a filesystem implementation.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>

Re: [9fans] 3D graphics as a filesystem

[James A. Robinson]

I wonder if the Inferno guys did anything like that.

There was a youtube video from John Floren talking about his work replacing
Java w/ Inferno on an Android phone and I think he mentioned some ideas he
had consider w/re to driving graphics using a 9p interface.

On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Chris McGee  wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I am looking at the specs for a GPU and was thinking about something
> analogous to /dev/draw, but for 3D graphics. Kind of like OpenGL except
> exposed as a filesystem so that it is network mountable and programmed in
> any language (even rc).
>
> Does anyone know if this kind of thing has been done before for plan 9?
> Any relevant papers or documents out there?
>
> My first thought involves representing elements in the graphics pipeline
> as files where you can write shader language code. Also a vertex file to
> write or read floating point vertex data. Maybe something more abstract
> would be better with scene graph and camera controls would be better match
> for a filesystem implementation.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>

[9fans] 3D graphics as a filesystem

[Chris McGee]

Hello All,

I am looking at the specs for a GPU and was thinking about something analogous 
to /dev/draw, but for 3D graphics. Kind of like OpenGL except exposed as a 
filesystem so that it is network mountable and programmed in any language (even 
rc).

Does anyone know if this kind of thing has been done before for plan 9? Any 
relevant papers or documents out there?

My first thought involves representing elements in the graphics pipeline as 
files where you can write shader language code. Also a vertex file to write or 
read floating point vertex data. Maybe something more abstract would be better 
with scene graph and camera controls would be better match for a filesystem 
implementation.

Thanks,
Chris

Re: [9fans] What does your fileserver consist of?

[Brantley Coile]

:)

You would be a popular with your significant other as I was with my wife when I 
had a PDP-11 in the living room.

> On Oct 12, 2016, at 6:38 PM, James A. Robinson  wrote:
> 
> Ha, looks familiar:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EtherDrive
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EtherDrive#/media/File:EtherDriveCluster.JPG
> 
> Very neat, thank you for the description.   But it's probably a bit
> more than I can fit into my closet. :-P
> 
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 11:31 AM Brantley Coile  wrote:
> 
> SouthSuite’s production stack, plus a little.
> 
> The top box, “wrens”, is a diskless file server, work done by the Great 
> Quanstro. It’s Ken’s file server that uses ATA-over-Ethernet for its storage. 
> The bottom of the picture are two SRX storage shelves, “300” and “200”, that 
> are mirrors of each other. The machine “dmr” is our auth server, and 
> “research” is our CPU server. Eric’s 9atom setup is mixed in there as well.
> 
> They will pry IL out of my cold, dead fingers. 
> 
> Obviously this was all constructed, for the most part, out of old Coraid SRX 
> junk that was laying around. Dmr was the first equipment purchased for 
> SouthSuite proper.

Re: [9fans] What does your fileserver consist of?

[Steve Simon]

mine is a dual atom mini itx box, with two mirrored disks - though i have an 
ssd to add when i get a chance.

the server is a combined auth/cpu/venti/fossil/mail/domain/web server.

it consumes 26watts which could be better but is not bad.

a pi with a few sata3 interfaces would be interesting.

-Steve


> On 12 Oct 2016, at 16:31, California Electric  
> wrote:
> 
> Jim,
> 
> There are other low cost alternatives than an rpi. Higher kilowatt-hour cost 
> for sure than an rpi, but cheap...
> 
> My current 32bit bell labs distro file server is a Lenovo (IBM) m58p small 
> form factor. It has a 3.33 ghz intel core2 duo cpu, upgraded from it's stock 
> 3.0ghz core2 duo. I have also tested it with a 3.0ghz core2 quad cpu, and 
> that works. With AHCI set to native everything works, including multiple 
> cores and built in gigabit ethernet. I boot off a USB stick, and it runs a 
> 512GB fossil from SSD. I bought mine for 60 $US on eBay. I just checked and 
> they are as low as half that now. Tilted on its side it doesn't take up much 
> shelf space at all.
> 
> The fossil is backed by a very large venti running under plan9port on a mac 
> that does other things, too. 
> 
> My auth server is an rpi though, the original, and it sits on top and gets 
> its power from one of the USB ports on the fs, so it's all pretty compact and 
> a single switch.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
>> On Oct 11, 2016, at 5:33 PM, James A. Robinson  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Folks,
>> 
>> One of the things I'm thinking about is setting up a full Plan 9
>> cluster, meaning one of the components would be a stand-alone
>> fileserver hooked up to a decent amount of storage.
>> 
>> I was wondering what experience people have had with slower or faster
>> machines in this role?
>> 
>> I was wondering whether or not it'd be feasible to hook up something
>> like http://tinyurl.com/jgov5gc (Amazon.com) to something small like a
>> Raspberry Pi 3, or if the I/O would be too much for that kind of
>> computer to handle.
>> 
>> Does anyone here run a fileserver on a small computer like a
>> raspberry pi 3, or perhaps something like an Intel nuc?
>> 
>> I wouldn't be supporting multiple users, just myself moving between
>> a couple of devices.
>> 
>> Jim
>> 
> 

Re: [9fans] What does your fileserver consist of?

[California Electric]

Jim,

There are other low cost alternatives than an rpi. Higher kilowatt-hour cost 
for sure than an rpi, but cheap...

My current 32bit bell labs distro file server is a Lenovo (IBM) m58p small form 
factor. It has a 3.33 ghz intel core2 duo cpu, upgraded from it's stock 3.0ghz 
core2 duo. I have also tested it with a 3.0ghz core2 quad cpu, and that works. 
With AHCI set to native everything works, including multiple cores and built in 
gigabit ethernet. I boot off a USB stick, and it runs a 512GB fossil from SSD. 
I bought mine for 60 $US on eBay. I just checked and they are as low as half 
that now. Tilted on its side it doesn't take up much shelf space at all.

The fossil is backed by a very large venti running under plan9port on a mac 
that does other things, too. 

My auth server is an rpi though, the original, and it sits on top and gets its 
power from one of the USB ports on the fs, so it's all pretty compact and a 
single switch.

Greg



Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 11, 2016, at 5:33 PM, James A. Robinson  wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> 
> One of the things I'm thinking about is setting up a full Plan 9
> cluster, meaning one of the components would be a stand-alone
> fileserver hooked up to a decent amount of storage.
> 
> I was wondering what experience people have had with slower or faster
> machines in this role?
> 
> I was wondering whether or not it'd be feasible to hook up something
> like http://tinyurl.com/jgov5gc (Amazon.com) to something small like a
> Raspberry Pi 3, or if the I/O would be too much for that kind of
> computer to handle.
> 
> Does anyone here run a fileserver on a small computer like a
> raspberry pi 3, or perhaps something like an Intel nuc?
> 
> I wouldn't be supporting multiple users, just myself moving between
> a couple of devices.
> 
> Jim

Re: [9fans] What does your fileserver consist of?

[Steven Stallion]

Hi James,

My fileserver is an older Intel Atom D525. I have a pair of mirrored
SSDs installed for fossil and my venti store is served by plan9ports
running on a CentOS machine with ample storage. I also have a small
SATADOM installed for my 9fat partition, which makes it easy to
recover if^H^Hwhen the write cache dies.

This setup works well - I've been running it with zero problems for a
few years now. If you're curious, I kept some notes on how to do this
here: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/contrib/stallion/venti/
(start with the README).

That said, an rpi might be I/O bound if you have more than a couple of
CPU severs and terminals on your network. A NUC would certainly have
more than enough power (I keep a NUC in my office for working with
Altium).

Cheers,

Steve

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 7:33 PM, James A. Robinson
 wrote:
> Folks,
>
> One of the things I'm thinking about is setting up a full Plan 9
> cluster, meaning one of the components would be a stand-alone
> fileserver hooked up to a decent amount of storage.
>
> I was wondering what experience people have had with slower or faster
> machines in this role?
>
> I was wondering whether or not it'd be feasible to hook up something
> like http://tinyurl.com/jgov5gc (Amazon.com) to something small like a
> Raspberry Pi 3, or if the I/O would be too much for that kind of
> computer to handle.
>
> Does anyone here run a fileserver on a small computer like a
> raspberry pi 3, or perhaps something like an Intel nuc?
>
> I wouldn't be supporting multiple users, just myself moving between
> a couple of devices.
>
> Jim
>

Re: [9fans] What does your fileserver consist of?

[Richard Miller]

> I was wondering whether or not it'd be feasible to hook up something
> like http://tinyurl.com/jgov5gc (Amazon.com) to something small like a
> Raspberry Pi 3, or if the I/O would be too much for that kind of
> computer to handle.

Probably feasible but it is likely to be slow, because Plan 9's usb
implementation is not particularly efficient, and the pi's usb host
adapter hardware is especially bad.  Someone with a usb disk might
be able to quote actual bandwidth numbers.

I have a Seagate 1TB usb drive (SSD), which does not work at all with
Plan 9.  Haven't looked into it deeply, but it appears usb/disk isn't
parsing the usb interface descriptors correctly.

  ep7.0 storage csp 0x500608 csp 0x620608 vid 0x0bc2 did 0x231a Seagate 
Expansion dwcotg

There are two interfaces, and instead of selecting the correct one
(0x500608) usb/disk seems to be mixing up the endpoints from both
interfaces together:
Seagate Expansion NA82688P
conf: cval 1 attrib 80 500 mA
iface csp storage.6.98
  alt 0 attr 2 ival 0
  alt 1 attr 2 ival 0
  ep id 1 addr 1 dir inout type bulk itype 0 maxpkt 512 ntds 1
  ep id 2 addr 130 dir inout type bulk itype 0 maxpkt 512 ntds 1
  ep id 1 addr 1 dir inout type bulk itype 0 maxpkt 512 ntds 1
  ep id 2 addr 130 dir inout type bulk itype 0 maxpkt 512 ntds 1
  ep id 3 addr 131 dir in type bulk itype 0 maxpkt 512 ntds 1
  ep id 4 addr 4 dir out type bulk itype 0 maxpkt 512 ntds 1
dev desc 24[4]:  04 24 01 00
dev desc 24[4]:  04 24 02 00
dev desc 24[4]:  04 24 03 00
dev desc 24[4]:  04 24 04 00

My file server is built from an intel atom mini-itx board with a SATA
disk.  Sequential read speed is over 100 MB/sec, more than enough to
saturate my network.  By comparison, I get less than 10 MB/sec reading
from a usb flash drive on the same machine.

Re: [9fans] What does your fileserver consist of?

[Sergey Zhilkin]

Sorry, for misspelling(iOS trying to "help" me)  Rpi and Brantley I meant.

среда, 12 октября 2016 г. пользователь Sergey Zhilkin написал:

> Hi !
>
> Rip is good for running terminal. It do not have modern (and old :) )
> interfaces to storage. I'm use old big tower PC, with several hard drives.
> I think Eric or Brantkey can tell more, as he still run Kfs. (Cwfs)
>
> среда, 12 октября 2016 г. пользователь Tyga написал:
>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> I think you should be fine.  I'm using five rescued HP ePCs
>> 
>>  all
>> with PIII @800MHz, 128MB RAM and a range of HDs, including one one with
>> 80GB.  All connected via a HP ProCurve 1G switch.  I have one RPi2
>> connected to the cluster and it, too, works fine with them.  Still having
>> struggles with auth, etc.
>>
>> For what it's worth, I have an ePC booting off a compact flash card (via
>> an IDE adaptor) - that one is rather slow.  I haven't benchmarked this
>> cluster against anything, but my impression is that it's Ok, but a single
>> contemporary PC seems faster (SSD, SATA3, etc)
>>
>> Well that's one dodgy data point for you!
>>
>>
>> On 12 October 2016 at 11:33, James A. Robinson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> One of the things I'm thinking about is setting up a full Plan 9
>>> cluster, meaning one of the components would be a stand-alone
>>> fileserver hooked up to a decent amount of storage.
>>>
>>> I was wondering what experience people have had with slower or faster
>>> machines in this role?
>>>
>>> I was wondering whether or not it'd be feasible to hook up something
>>> like http://tinyurl.com/jgov5gc (Amazon.com) to something small like a
>>> Raspberry Pi 3, or if the I/O would be too much for that kind of
>>> computer to handle.
>>>
>>> Does anyone here run a fileserver on a small computer like a
>>> raspberry pi 3, or perhaps something like an Intel nuc?
>>>
>>> I wouldn't be supporting multiple users, just myself moving between
>>> a couple of devices.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>


-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile

Re: [9fans] What does your fileserver consist of?

[Sergey Zhilkin]

Hi !

Rip is good for running terminal. It do not have modern (and old :) )
interfaces to storage. I'm use old big tower PC, with several hard drives.
I think Eric or Brantkey can tell more, as he still run Kfs. (Cwfs)

среда, 12 октября 2016 г. пользователь Tyga написал:

> Hi Jim,
>
> I think you should be fine.  I'm using five rescued HP ePCs
> 
>  all
> with PIII @800MHz, 128MB RAM and a range of HDs, including one one with
> 80GB.  All connected via a HP ProCurve 1G switch.  I have one RPi2
> connected to the cluster and it, too, works fine with them.  Still having
> struggles with auth, etc.
>
> For what it's worth, I have an ePC booting off a compact flash card (via
> an IDE adaptor) - that one is rather slow.  I haven't benchmarked this
> cluster against anything, but my impression is that it's Ok, but a single
> contemporary PC seems faster (SSD, SATA3, etc)
>
> Well that's one dodgy data point for you!
>
>
> On 12 October 2016 at 11:33, James A. Robinson  > wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> One of the things I'm thinking about is setting up a full Plan 9
>> cluster, meaning one of the components would be a stand-alone
>> fileserver hooked up to a decent amount of storage.
>>
>> I was wondering what experience people have had with slower or faster
>> machines in this role?
>>
>> I was wondering whether or not it'd be feasible to hook up something
>> like http://tinyurl.com/jgov5gc (Amazon.com) to something small like a
>> Raspberry Pi 3, or if the I/O would be too much for that kind of
>> computer to handle.
>>
>> Does anyone here run a fileserver on a small computer like a
>> raspberry pi 3, or perhaps something like an Intel nuc?
>>
>> I wouldn't be supporting multiple users, just myself moving between
>> a couple of devices.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>

-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile