Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Lucio De Re]

Here's one of many small issues I would like explained or adjusted: I
can half run rio (p9p's rio) under xnest. I seem to recall Erik
mentioning the option, but in my few efforts, it landed up with the
newly-created windows on the desktop instead of within the rio xnest.

Is it worth my while to delve into p9p's innards and see if I can find
all the locations where this needs to be corrected? Is it going to be
one locations or far too many?

I simply can't sacrifice my browser and skype to rio, my job depends
on those two.

I'm trying hard to wean myself off Thunderbird, I detest that animal
and have made some progress with Erik's upas which doesn't get totally
confused with Dovecot on the IMAP side - very minor tweaks sufficed to
compile under 9legacy (I just copied the le/be module(s) from the
library into the "distribution").

I still need to be able to operate mailman's web interface: replacing
that will with an acme/mail utility is a bit beyond me and in any case
I think mailman's days are numbered, more so now that version 3 is
starting to take shape and is going to obsolete version 2 that by
comparison is a shrew against an elephant.

Lucio.

On 4/15/19, s...@9front.org  wrote:
> thinking is hard.  there is a sweet spot somewhere between ease of use
> and knowing what you're trying to accomplish in the first place.
>
> once you learn the system, you can get a lot of mileage out of
> in-built system features, such as shell commands, lists (variables),
> functions, and pipelines.  file interfaces and private namespaces make
> these simple primitives even more powerful than they are on presumably
> more familiar unix systems.  (it has to be said: unix users already
> don't seem to get much mileage out of existing unix features.)
>
> rio is scriptable, and all of its features are exposed to file
> interfaces and text commands.  that's a huge steering wheel, even if
> your hands are small.
>
> all the cosmetic stuff new users typically complain about can be
> modified with a minimum of knowledge and skill.  this is a benefit of
> the terse, simple programming style.  sometimes, even a deficient
> program can be better than a featureful one, if the deficient program
> is simple and easy to modify.  just implement whatever it is you
> actually want to do.
>
> some people would say this is ugly:
>
> http://plan9.stanleylieber.com/rio/img/20190415.png
>
> sl
>
>


-- 
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa

Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824
FAX: +27 58 653 1435

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[sl]

thinking is hard.  there is a sweet spot somewhere between ease of use
and knowing what you're trying to accomplish in the first place.

once you learn the system, you can get a lot of mileage out of
in-built system features, such as shell commands, lists (variables),
functions, and pipelines.  file interfaces and private namespaces make
these simple primitives even more powerful than they are on presumably
more familiar unix systems.  (it has to be said: unix users already
don't seem to get much mileage out of existing unix features.)

rio is scriptable, and all of its features are exposed to file
interfaces and text commands.  that's a huge steering wheel, even if
your hands are small.

all the cosmetic stuff new users typically complain about can be
modified with a minimum of knowledge and skill.  this is a benefit of
the terse, simple programming style.  sometimes, even a deficient
program can be better than a featureful one, if the deficient program
is simple and easy to modify.  just implement whatever it is you
actually want to do.

some people would say this is ugly:

http://plan9.stanleylieber.com/rio/img/20190415.png

sl

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Ori Bernstein]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 16:59:12 -0400
Marshall Conover  wrote:

> For example, I feel super squished on a single screen, but I've come to
> dislike the awkwardness of switching between multiple 'workspaces' or
> working with tiling wms. So I'm playing around with rio at the moment to
> see if adding a 'panning' effect, where you treat the desktop as an
> infinitely-scrollable table and allow the user to 'pan' around the table,
> could be a natural approach to feeling less squished. It may end up being
> even more awkward and painful, but it may also end up being something I'm
> left wanting for in modern DEs - that could be an attraction to 9.

>From man 3 vga:

  panning mode
   Depending on whether mode is on or off, enable or dis-
   able panning in a virtual screen.  If panning is on and
   the screen's size is larger than its actualsize, the
   displayed portion of the screen will pan to follow the
   mouse.  Setting the panning mode after the first attach
   of the #i driver has no effect.

-- 
Ori Bernstein 

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Marshall Conover]

Hi Darren!

I can see how 9's current UI could be considered a 'roadblock' to the
average user due to its unfamiliarity, and making it closer to modern looks
may make plan 9 pass the smell test for users more often. Personally,
though, it seems like a bit of a slog; there's not much exciting going on
in changing a UI to look like 'every other' UI, and I'd also wonder about
maintenance - you might update it to look familiar now, but in three years
where will it be, especially with web frameworks changing things so
frequently and invading the desktop with elektron? That said, if it does
draw more users, upkeep might get easier (just having people prompting with
issue reports can be productive), and it's genuinely nice to have a more
active community.

But, I'd be really interested to see it taken a step further. Instead of
just a facelift, I'd love to see changes that show a reflection on modern
UIs and their problems, and attempts to fix them. That'd not just remove a
roadblock for new users, but create change that may actually draw them.

For example, I feel super squished on a single screen, but I've come to
dislike the awkwardness of switching between multiple 'workspaces' or
working with tiling wms. So I'm playing around with rio at the moment to
see if adding a 'panning' effect, where you treat the desktop as an
infinitely-scrollable table and allow the user to 'pan' around the table,
could be a natural approach to feeling less squished. It may end up being
even more awkward and painful, but it may also end up being something I'm
left wanting for in modern DEs - that could be an attraction to 9.

In something that I feel relates closer to the heart of 9, one problem I
see in modern UIs is the inability to easily interact between programs.
Each UI acts as an island, and the best generic interface for interaction
you can get between them is allowing programs to send screen clicks, with
the nightmare quickly following of figuring out how to know where to click.
Web APIs are somewhat en route to addressing that with their REST endpoints
and swagger API definitions, but it seems so much more simple to instead
use files and directories over 9p.

Getting really out there, I'd love to see a tightly coupled way of
representing the commands you can send to a program via its ctl file API in
9 and a visual representation of that program in rio. I'd love if the UIs I
was using in a program corresponded to their filesystem API so much as to
be almost a mapping, perhaps even letting you generate a UI from the
filesystem API and some simple mark(down|up). I think a shell that worked
off of this concept could be fascinating - not unlike a browser in some
ways, but in keeping close to the filesystem abstraction, perhaps allowing
for much better interaction with the small, text-stream focused programs
that the unix mentality prefers.

In sum, I'd be happy to see an increase in users from a facelift, but what
I'd love to see are new draws that fix modern problems.

On a more practical level, you may find it notable that the nuklear lib
 has been ported for plan 9. It
may be a good start to create a UI that users coming from current workflows
will be comfortable looking at and interacting with. If you want to chat
with the porter of the nuklear lib for 9, you'll find him in this plan
9-focused discord server: https://discord.gg/6daut5T. You may also find
it's a good place for discussion like this.

Thanks for starting the discussion, and good luck!

Marshall

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Michael Misch]

That's good to note. (I don't consider "WinGnoKDE" a good counterpoint
anyways) but for example I have reasonably debilitating carpal tunnel
issues, and the heavy mouse use is a major bane to my general enjoyment in
Rio when it happens.

On Mon., Apr. 15, 2019, 2:00 p.m. Ethan Gardener, 
wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019, at 7:43 AM, Michael Misch wrote:
> > The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design works, very well;
> for about 80% of would be users. For differently abled people in any
> capacity it all falls apart quickly.
>
> Begging your pardon, but for *this* differently abled person it's a huge
> improvement on WinGnoKDE.  Anyone who wants to make *text selection*
> complicated ought not to be allowed near a computer, to say nothing of the
> numerous other problems which get in the way of just getting accustomed to
> and fluently using traditional GUI.
>
>

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Ethan Gardener]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019, at 7:43 AM, Michael Misch wrote:
> The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design works, very well; for 
> about 80% of would be users. For differently abled people in any capacity it 
> all falls apart quickly. 

Begging your pardon, but for *this* differently abled person it's a huge 
improvement on WinGnoKDE.  Anyone who wants to make *text selection* 
complicated ought not to be allowed near a computer, to say nothing of the 
numerous other problems which get in the way of just getting accustomed to and 
fluently using traditional GUI.

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[ab]

> Darren Wise wrote:
> snip

With all due respect (admittedly, I've thought about this before) but
Plan 9 may be better used as a model of how thoughtful engineering can
produce a great system.

Perhaps better inspiration could be achieved by setting up a public Plan
9 server (or private, it's your server) and letting people interact with
it on their own.

If you want to start smaller, you can always share some code that would
implement some graphical feature you find Plan 9 lacking in. This list
does have a disappointing lack of semicolons.

Good luck.

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[ori]

> Hey folks,
> 
> I rarely post in-fact maybe my second ever, I was wondering if anyone 
> else or a group of us could work towards some window manager UI 
> modifications to appear more attractive in some form from the current 
> interface appearing in comparison to dwm(on other Nix forks) to a more 
> usable friendly interface like gnome, KDE and the like.

I don't think this would fit well on plan 9. There's room for improvement
in what exists,  but I think large and complex environments are liabilities.

It's not something I'd be interested in using.

> I'm just throwing the idea about really, I've not had much time at all 
> with Plan9 but from just my bare basic usage I can already see a great 
> future for Plan9 as a whole. As I say what with commitments currently 
> the last few years I could be way out of my depth and experience even 
> mentioning this and don't mind getting flamed a little.

If you want this, you're going to need to write the code.

In general, ideas are cheap, and people are unlikely to pitch in until
they see where you're going. And specifically, people already know where
to go if they want KDE or Gnome.

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Darren Wise]

Heya folks,

Thanks very much for the replies so far, I'm still reading them as they 
come in and when the flutter has calmed down a little I'll then start to 
reply. I'm just letting you know I am listening and reading and not 
being ignorant firing off some random eMail and then doing-one elsewhere :D


Some very high quality responses so far, good giggles as well! Awesome 
insights considering my level of Plan9 usage and knowledge at this stage.


Awesome stuff!

On 15/04/2019 16:10, Chris McGee wrote:


Hi Darren,

Your goal seem to be to make the system less daunting for new users. I 
think there are a number of ways to accomplish this.


Dressing up the UI and/or making it more like popular used interfaces 
might be one way to make new users feel more comfortable. One concern 
with doing this is that it allows them to come with other assumptions 
that may confusions about how the underlying system works. This effort 
could also increase complexity and size of the core system. 
Simplicity, size and consistency are aspects of Plan 9 that I really 
value. Otherwise, I might as well just use BSD or even Linux.


In my experience one of the biggest hurdles to getting curious new 
users to give Plan 9 a try is just getting access to a namespace so 
that they can give it a try and learn. I think that the quickest path 
at the moment is to install it onto a VM like qemu (or yuck, 
virtualbox) since you can bypass the whole hardware selection and 
compatibility pain points. I put some YouTube videos up showing people 
step-by-step with a decent number of views and comments, so I think 
this helped some people just to get their hands on it. There are more 
ideas that I'm playing with to help people get started, such as 
building a website where you can get a drawterm in your web browser 
and give it a try.


Once a new user has access to the system there could be some exercises 
and tutorials to engage them. There could be a variety of these 
depending on the background, whether programmer, Linux user, 
librarian, whatever. The key in my opinion is to not hide the core 
system with layer after layer of "pretty" GUI's, but instead reveal it 
gradually with decent explanations. I think that the core of Plan 9 is 
much easier to explain than other systems because of its smaller size, 
relatively consistent interfaces and versatility. Once you grasp one 
area it is much easier to begin grasping more of it using the skills 
you already have. I can't say the same thing about Linux or any other 
system that I have used. Like any tool, there is some required 
learning and practice. Good tools amplify your learning as you 
practice with it.


Once someone understands how Plan 9 works then I think they will have 
many of the tools that they need to build their own networks with it. 
I recommend digging into man pages and /sys/doc at this stage. There's 
a wealth of well written guides in there, although some could be made 
a bit more current. A guide on how to build a home network using 
raspberry pi terminals and a CPU/file server from easy to acquire, but 
well designed, modern hardware would be a welcome addition.


The system is far from perfect as others will tell you but there's 
advances and fixes happening steadily. I'm just not sure if focusing 
on the initial user experience through UI look and feel is adding 
much. I think a more general discussion of GUI capabilities, such as 
video and 3D graphics capabilities, would be great, but more in the 
context of what kinds of tasks people want to accomplish. The trick is 
to fit those improvements into the rest of the system and not just 
jamming them in.


Cheers,
Chris

--
WISECORP 
Darren Wise
eMail: dar...@wisecorp.co.uk 
www: https://wisecorp.co.uk

The company [ WISECORP ] accepts no liability for the content of this 
email, or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of the 
information provided, unless that information is subsequently confirmed 
in handwriting. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified 
that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance 
on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.





---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Chris McGee]

Hi Darren,

Your goal seem to be to make the system less daunting for new users. I
think there are a number of ways to accomplish this.

Dressing up the UI and/or making it more like popular used interfaces might
be one way to make new users feel more comfortable. One concern with doing
this is that it allows them to come with other assumptions that may
confusions about how the underlying system works. This effort could also
increase complexity and size of the core system. Simplicity, size and
consistency are aspects of Plan 9 that I really value. Otherwise, I might
as well just use BSD or even Linux.

In my experience one of the biggest hurdles to getting curious new users to
give Plan 9 a try is just getting access to a namespace so that they can
give it a try and learn. I think that the quickest path at the moment is to
install it onto a VM like qemu (or yuck, virtualbox) since you can bypass
the whole hardware selection and compatibility pain points. I put some
YouTube videos up showing people step-by-step with a decent number of views
and comments, so I think this helped some people just to get their hands on
it. There are more ideas that I'm playing with to help people get started,
such as building a website where you can get a drawterm in your web browser
and give it a try.

Once a new user has access to the system there could be some exercises and
tutorials to engage them. There could be a variety of these depending on
the background, whether programmer, Linux user, librarian, whatever. The
key in my opinion is to not hide the core system with layer after layer of
"pretty" GUI's, but instead reveal it gradually with decent explanations. I
think that the core of Plan 9 is much easier to explain than other systems
because of its smaller size, relatively consistent interfaces and
versatility. Once you grasp one area it is much easier to begin grasping
more of it using the skills you already have. I can't say the same thing
about Linux or any other system that I have used. Like any tool, there is
some required learning and practice. Good tools amplify your learning as
you practice with it.

Once someone understands how Plan 9 works then I think they will have many
of the tools that they need to build their own networks with it. I
recommend digging into man pages and /sys/doc at this stage. There's a
wealth of well written guides in there, although some could be made a bit
more current. A guide on how to build a home network using raspberry pi
terminals and a CPU/file server from easy to acquire, but well designed,
modern hardware would be a welcome addition.

The system is far from perfect as others will tell you but there's advances
and fixes happening steadily. I'm just not sure if focusing on the initial
user experience through UI look and feel is adding much. I think a more
general discussion of GUI capabilities, such as video and 3D graphics
capabilities, would be great, but more in the context of what kinds of
tasks people want to accomplish. The trick is to fit those improvements
into the rest of the system and not just jamming them in.

Cheers,
Chris

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Kurt H Maier]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 12:24:44AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> And we don't have to wait for a Michelangelo to design a perfect UI!

Of course not.  We already have Mike Okuda.

khm

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[hiro]

the only art in window management is how they manage to sustain so
much inconsistency

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Bakul Shah]

What I meant to say is you can't apply aesthetics of art
to UI as the latter has a functional purpose. And we don't
have to wait for a Michelangelo to design a perfect UI!
In other words, I don't think a UI discussion would be
fruitless. Not to replicate KDE/Gnome etc. but to find
other alternatives that feel more in tune with plan9.

> On Apr 14, 2019, at 11:41 PM, Michael Misch  
> wrote:
> 
> The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design works, very well; for 
> about 80% of would be users. For differently abled people in any capacity it 
> all falls apart quickly. it's such a simple system though it wouldn't take 
> much work to extend support wherever needed.
> 
> On Mon., Apr. 15, 2019, 12:26 a.m. Devine Lu Linvega,  
> wrote:
> Michelangelo would have been “middle-click!? Hell no”.
> 
> > On Apr 15, 2019, at 3:12 PM, Bakul Shah  wrote:
> > 
> > Michelangelo or Rodin didn't have to worry about function, only form.
> > 
> > Da Vinci on the other hand
> > 
> >> On Apr 14, 2019, at 10:07 PM, Lucio De Re  wrote:
> >> 
> >> The thing is, a UI is a combination of far too many personal tastes
> >> and habits and a GUI multi-dimensionally more so. It's like a marble
> >> slab that needs a Michelangelo to turn it into an image.
> >> 
> >> We've had one Michelangelo and a Rodin and only a few Greek sculptors
> >> in the past, what, three thousand years? Do we really think that a
> >> near infinite number of monkeys is now going to solve that problem,
> >> specially when the marble slab is undergoing its own metamorphosis
> >> underfoot?
> >> 
> >> Good luck!
> >> 
> >> Lucio.
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Michael Misch]

The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design works, very well; for
about 80% of would be users. For differently abled people in any capacity
it all falls apart quickly. it's such a simple system though it wouldn't
take much work to extend support wherever needed.

On Mon., Apr. 15, 2019, 12:26 a.m. Devine Lu Linvega, 
wrote:

> Michelangelo would have been “middle-click!? Hell no”.
>
> > On Apr 15, 2019, at 3:12 PM, Bakul Shah  wrote:
> >
> > Michelangelo or Rodin didn't have to worry about function, only form.
> >
> > Da Vinci on the other hand
> >
> >> On Apr 14, 2019, at 10:07 PM, Lucio De Re  wrote:
> >>
> >> The thing is, a UI is a combination of far too many personal tastes
> >> and habits and a GUI multi-dimensionally more so. It's like a marble
> >> slab that needs a Michelangelo to turn it into an image.
> >>
> >> We've had one Michelangelo and a Rodin and only a few Greek sculptors
> >> in the past, what, three thousand years? Do we really think that a
> >> near infinite number of monkeys is now going to solve that problem,
> >> specially when the marble slab is undergoing its own metamorphosis
> >> underfoot?
> >>
> >> Good luck!
> >>
> >> Lucio.
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Devine Lu Linvega]

Michelangelo would have been “middle-click!? Hell no”.

> On Apr 15, 2019, at 3:12 PM, Bakul Shah  wrote:
> 
> Michelangelo or Rodin didn't have to worry about function, only form.
> 
> Da Vinci on the other hand
> 
>> On Apr 14, 2019, at 10:07 PM, Lucio De Re  wrote:
>> 
>> The thing is, a UI is a combination of far too many personal tastes
>> and habits and a GUI multi-dimensionally more so. It's like a marble
>> slab that needs a Michelangelo to turn it into an image.
>> 
>> We've had one Michelangelo and a Rodin and only a few Greek sculptors
>> in the past, what, three thousand years? Do we really think that a
>> near infinite number of monkeys is now going to solve that problem,
>> specially when the marble slab is undergoing its own metamorphosis
>> underfoot?
>> 
>> Good luck!
>> 
>> Lucio.
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

[Bakul Shah]

Michelangelo or Rodin didn't have to worry about function, only form.

Da Vinci on the other hand

> On Apr 14, 2019, at 10:07 PM, Lucio De Re  wrote:
> 
> The thing is, a UI is a combination of far too many personal tastes
> and habits and a GUI multi-dimensionally more so. It's like a marble
> slab that needs a Michelangelo to turn it into an image.
> 
> We've had one Michelangelo and a Rodin and only a few Greek sculptors
> in the past, what, three thousand years? Do we really think that a
> near infinite number of monkeys is now going to solve that problem,
> specially when the marble slab is undergoing its own metamorphosis
> underfoot?
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Lucio.
>