Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely
On Wednesday, February 2, 2011, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: It is a C/C++/Obj-C compiler does static analysis, has backends for multiple processor types as well as C as a target, a lot of optimization tricks etc. See llvm.org. But frankly, I think they have lost the plot. C is basically a portable assembly programming language in my highly biased opinion a C compiler should do no more than peephole optimizations. If you want more, might as well use a high level language. preach it, brother. i couldn't agree more. - erik Well LLVM uses its internal ASTs for a lot of the optimizations doesnt it? My understanding is LLVM is a stack of software that you compose other programming language tools by including the libraries you want. One might be able to remove the optimizing behaviors one doesn't want pretty easily, or write one's own optimizing layer that's stripped down. Then one could have the do what I said compiler instead of the do what you think I meant one. I believe there are occasions for each type of compiler really. It might seem really big and bloated but I still think what they've done is kind of neat. Making a real compiler in Haskell or O'Caml is pretty damned easy with LLVM bindings. I wonder how difficult it is to target Plan 9 with LLVM.
Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 9:14 PM, smi...@zenzebra.mv.com wrote: ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com writes: I think you should set your sights higher than the macro approach you propose. At least in my opinion it's a really ugly idea. You might be surprised to hear that I agree. :) It's far from an ideal solution. I am certainly open to alternatives! You could make a lasting contribution by bringing a good modern language to Plan 9. Maybe. My first criterion for such a language would be that it compile to native machine code. Although requiring such may be presumptive, it seems appropriate that the core OS applications (file servers, command line utilities, etc.) be in native machine code. On the other hand, on Inferno, Limbo compiles to architecture-independent bytecode, eliminating the need for the /$objtype directories on Plan 9, while enabling easier sharing of object code. What are all your thoughts' on this compiled vs interpreted design decision? You can already write Limbo programs for Plan 9. The line between the OS of Inferno and the VM of Inferno is small. You should be able to access your plan 9 resources from Inferno just fine. Just like you can access most of what you'd want from an operating system from Java or Erlang. It's not very different, except that Inferno has shells and editors and a GUI that run in it's VM. The Go language (from Google? sigh. Evil, evil.) appears to compile to native machine code. The Go web site (http://golang.org), however, claims that Go requires a small runtime... which causes me to wonder just how fully compiled it is. Anyone know the scoop on what this runtime is all about? Even C has a runtime. Perhaps you should look more into how programming languages are implemented :-). C++ has one too, especially in the wake of exceptions and such. Go is also a garbage-collected language. I'm also a bit leery of using a GC language for coding core OS applications. I've generally thought of GC as being for lazy programmers (/me runs and hides under his desk, peeks out...) and incurring somewhat of a performance hit. I'm not sure if that would be appropriate for core applications. Then again, it seems to be what's done on Inferno. Thoughts on this? GC can incur performance hits in some families of applications where timing guarantees are needed and make writing code for hard realtime applications basically impossible, unless you can get some guarantees from the GC that it won't interrupt your processing that must complete by a particular deadline. Wikipedia says that Go doesn't support safe concurrency. However, the Go web site claims that goroutines (which are kinda like threads) coordinate through explicit synchronization. Isn't that how the Plan 9 threading library works, too? I'm not sure why the Wikipedia article would make a claim like that. Thoughts on the relative merits of concurrency in Go vs Plan 9 C would also be welcome. The memory model is very clear on how changes become visible across goroutines. One must either synchronize with channels or synchronize via some locking mechanism to guarantee that updates to shared data are visible. Go encourages a CSP style of concurrency that promotes using channels for both synchronization and update of shared data. This is something you could learn by reading more about it yourself, or trying it out. There's even an in-browser sandbox you can use. On an implementation note, it sounds like Go can be bootstrapped from C, with a little bit of assembly. It might not be so monumental a task to port Go to Plan 9, though I would hesitate to use ANY code written by Google without a thorough audit. People already have a Go cross compiler to Plan 9. You could verify these sounds like factoids yourself though by checking it out and trying it. I'll say it again, I don't think a cpp-based approach will be well Did you mean what you wrote, cpp or did you mean C++? C pre-processor probably. Or even native Limbo, that one is frequently requested. Can Libmo be compiled to native machine code? There was some mention that, during the history of Plan 9, developers had difficulty maintaining two different languages on the system. I wonder how much of that difficulty would still apply today. Although the kernel could concievably be translated to a modern compiled language, I doubt it could be written in Go. If Go were used, then, there would still have to be two languages/compilers/development environments on the system. Where did your C compiler come from? Someone probably compiled it with a C compiler. Bootstrapping is a fact of life as a new compiler can't just be culled from /dev/random or willed into existence otherwise. It takes a plan 9 system to build plan 9 right? (This was not always true for infinitely recursive reasons) -- +---+ |E-Mail:
Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:35 PM, Nick LaForge nicklafo...@gmail.com wrote: I hope it won't seem rude to suggest it, but the go-nuts list is the optimum place for your specific concerns. The Go authors read it and are very conscientious in responding to serious questions. The Go authors did express confidence that GC performance could eventually be made competitive, although I couldn't tell you whether that has yet happened. I would nevertheless keep in mind that they are experienced professionals (c.f. Inferno) and that you'd be wrong to malign GC categorically based on your experiences with the proliferation of various toy languages on the net. (I won't mention names.) If you want a modern C++ or some other heavyweight language on Plan 9, I'll point out that there was some talk in August about a LLVM port, though you'll be hard pressed to find many here that desire it above Go. Well if I were funded and had an infinite amount of time I'd think LLVM for Plan 9 would be excellent, as well as Go on LLVM :-). Nick On 2/2/11, Jacob Todd jaketodd...@gmail.com wrote: And russ cox, and everyone else in the CONTRIBUTORS file. On Feb 2, 2011 12:39 AM, Scott Sullivan sc...@ss.org wrote:
Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 4:54 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: There was some mention that, during the history of Plan 9, developers had difficulty maintaining two different languages on the system. I wonder how much of that difficulty would still apply today. Although the kernel could concievably be translated to a modern compiled language, I doubt it could be written in Go. If Go were used, then, there would still have to be two languages/compilers/development environments on the system. although the proof is in the putting, i don't see why a kernel in principle, can't be written in go, or a slightly restricted subset of go. Wait, isn't it the proof is in the *pudding*? YOU MEAN WE DON'T GET FRENCH BENEFITS!?! - erik
Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 9:50 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: Even C has a runtime. Perhaps you should look more into how programming languages are implemented :-). C++ has one too, especially in the wake of exceptions and such. really? what do you consider to be the c runtime? i don't think that the asm goo that gets you to main really counts as runtime and neither does the c library, because neither implement language features. How about setting up stack space in the code for an operating system kernel? That's something you don't explicitly write in C that must be there somehow, for example in an operating system kernel. You end up changing that runtime bit and then all your C code has different stack space available. I suppose you could group that into the kernel's runtime, but since the operating system I'm thinking of is coded in C, that kind of line drawing seems silly ;-) I agree that C has a really really minimal need for any help to run on raw metal, but some level of support is still necessary. Dave - erik
Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:07 AM, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 09:47:01AM -0800, David Leimbach wrote: Wait, isn't it the proof is in the *pudding*? YOU MEAN WE DON'T GET FRENCH BENEFITS!?! Please explain. I was just pointing out something that happens a lot in our speech that can translate into text and I think most every american I've ever met falls into :-). Sometimes we americans say a lot of things that aren't quite right but sound close like my ex girlfriend who used to say supposably instead of supposedly. Fringe is close enough to French that it's often heard in it's place. Another one is He couldn't care a less for He couldn't care less. A fringe benefit is pretty well described here: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-fringe-benefits.htm and you'll hear people call them French Benefits. As for me, I wasn't really sure if the proof was in the pudding or the putting, so I was trying to poke fun at myself. Dave -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:03 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.comwrote: Where did your C compiler come from? Someone probably compiled it with a C compiler. Bootstrapping is a fact of life as a new compiler can't just be culled from /dev/random or willed into existence otherwise. It takes a plan 9 system to build plan 9 right? (This was not always true for infinitely recursive reasons) ah, but where did your go compiler come from? - erik Well my Go compiler came from a plan 9 C compiler that came from a gcc compiler, that came from the operating system distribution CD that shipped with Mac OS X. Someone at apple presumably bootstrapped that gcc build for Mac OS X from another GCC build for Mac OS X, and that one probably goes back to some version of OpenStep, all the way back to NeXTStep, and before that some version of Unix most likely that bootstrapped NeXTStep. A lot of that lineage was a guess. It's really difficult, for instance, to bootstrap the GHC (Haskell) compiler from the intermediate C files it generates these days, and you pretty much need a port of Haskell to your platform in order get a port of haskell to your platform. It's a bit of an undocumented black art as far as I can tell, but it was supposed to be simpler :-). Many lisp compilers/systems need a lisp compiler or system in place in order to bootstrap them too. Dave
Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:21 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: A runtime system is just a library whose entry points are language keywords.[1] In go, dynamic allocation, threads, channels, etc. are accessed via language features, so the libraries that implement those things are considered part of the RTS. That's a terminological difference only from Plan 9 C, which has the same features[2] but accesses them through ordinary library entry points so the libraries that implement them aren't called `runtimes'. But I think complaining about a library only because its entry point is a keyword is kind of silly. i think this glosses over a key difference. a runtime can do things that are not invoked by function call. the canonical example is garbage collection. - erik An excellent example would also be the scheduling of goroutines. I do not believe there's anything in the language specification that says that goroutines could not one day be pre-emptive. Also, from this point of view, could pthreads be considered runtime for C? Depends on the implementation I suppose. You've got thread local storage, which is not handled by any explicit C code, but by a coordinated effort between the kernel and the pthreads library. So the kernel is a C runtime too :-). Dave
Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely
On Wednesday, February 2, 2011, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Also, from this point of view, could pthreads be considered runtime for C? no. then every library/os function ever bolted onto c would be part of the c runtime. clearly this isn't the case and pthreads are not specified in the c standard. it might be part of /a/ runtime, but not the c runtime. - erik You are right. I suppose in C only the stack space is really needed for function calls and that may be pushing it too.
Re: [9fans] Modern development language for Plan 9, WAS: Re: RESOLVED: recoving important header file rudely
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Bakul Shah bakul+pl...@bitblocks.combakul%2bpl...@bitblocks.com wrote: On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 00:52:35 GMT Charles Forsyth fors...@terzarima.net wrote: $ size /usr/local/bin/clang textdata bss dec hex filename 228428621023204 69200 2393526616d3922 /usr/local/bin/clang i suppose a more useful comment might be a question: how does a C compiler get to be that big? what is all that code doing? It is a C/C++/Obj-C compiler does static analysis, has backends for multiple processor types as well as C as a target, a lot of optimization tricks etc. See llvm.org. But frankly, I think they have lost the plot. C is basically a portable assembly programming language in my highly biased opinion a C compiler should do no more than peephole optimizations. If you want more, might as well use a high level language. Don't forget objective-c++ :-). http://clang.llvm.org/features.html#simplecode has some interesting pictures and words
Re: [9fans] plan9 compatible notebook
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Gorka Guardiola pau...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 2:56 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: this fix may also help those who had trouble with some disk sizes in virtualbox. I am using the regular kernel in virtualbox without a problem. What does 9atom fix exactly?. I only had two problems in virtualbox, a bug in ohci which caused the kernel to panic and is fixed now and that the kernel in the install cd had some problem with the video (I recompiled it and it worked, so I don´t know what caused it). The boot kernel in the cd works fine but the one installed had this problem. G. Is this the latest virtualbox?
Re: [9fans] plan9 go output faults on 9vx with rfork
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:59 PM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: OK, Pavel sent me a nice piece of code that implements cmpswap using a gcc trick. I did not want to use the trick for a few reasons, and thought to use futex instead, as it seemed appropriate. Weirdly enough, I can not find a simple implementation of cmpswap that uses futex, though I can find several papers describing how tricky futex is, and one Linux person who told me that futex had evolved in ways not necessarily to our advantage. Every time I'm ready to throw in the towel on Plan 9 and just go with Linux I hit something like futex and it's back into the fray ... :-) Actually the mutex implementations I've seen with futex use cmpswap. Also my understanding of futex is that it's just an API for a portion of what needs to be done to implement a fast user space mutex. Essentially you have to examine the value in user space, see that it's what you expect and move on unblocked. If the value differs from what is expected, you must block, and wait. This is why they're tricky :-). I do not see anything immediately wrong with using the compiler intrinsic functions that are supported pretty well across GNU, clang, Intel C/C++ and I think even Microsoft's compilers. I do think that gcc does not implement them for i386, or if it does, it does so with a library routine instead of the compiler just generating the assembly for that architecture's version. I've run smack into this problem myself just about 8 months ago, and it was due to Boost being built with a mismatched architecture from some other code that was built with another. The result was that since these builtins get resolved sometimes at link time, and sometimes at compile time, they don't behave like normal functions, and you get a mess. You've got to pick one mess, or implement your own multi-architecture library of cmpswap and like routines :-). So, I have committed changes to my vx32 repo and Pavel's sieve now works on 9vx on a 32-bit linux vmware image. It should also work if you build on freebsd. It should also work if you build on 64-bit linux but there are no guarantees, since all this relies on some gcc builtins. You can see what I've done if you look at my repo. BTW, the sieve ran to 17xxx on linux and then I got some kind of malloc failure, I'll assume it's another 32-bit gc issue. I'm up to 57917 on osx. If your compiler is generating code for -march=i386, you could see some funny stuff on 32bit platforms. Better to use -march=i686. Might not come up, but it's something to look for. I really need to try this version of 9vx sometime instead of just thinking about it :-) Dave You're going to need Pavel's mods to go, I suppose. but that's another story ... ron
Re: [9fans] uncommon sights
yeah it's so easy to make screenshots :-) On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:54 AM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.comwrote: pics or it didn't happen :) On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Stanley Lieber stanley.lie...@gmail.com wrote: PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE WAIT TIMECPU COMMAND 16051 sl630 480K 356K run - 7:25 71.04% rc 2724 sl 20 489M 503M sleep poll247:00 11.47% firefox-bin -sl
Re: [9fans] Plan9 topology
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Duke Normandin dukeofp...@ml1.net wrote: Just read: http://lsub.org/magic/man2html/1/0intro [quote] Plan 9 is a distributed computing environment assembled from separate machines acting as terminals, CPU servers, and file servers.[/quote] Does the above imply, that ideally Plan9 should be running on a LAN? Not so good as the OS on a stand-alone box? -- Duke A lot of us with just one machine to spare tend to install the system, then build and configure a CPU/Auth/FS server on one box, or even just a VMWare or other virtualization instance. With plan 9 you do not have to run your CPU, authentication and file system parts of your computing system all in one place From there we can log into our plan 9 server using unix programs like drawterm, or even 9vx, each of which are more or less ports of Plan 9 to other OSes with different pros and cons. With plan 9 you do not have to run your CPU, authentication and file system parts of your computing system all in one place, and really, you can just run a terminal and play around with that to get started if you like.
Re: [9fans] fs performance
On Sunday, January 9, 2011, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Bakul Shah bakul+pl...@bitblocks.com wrote: I didn't say plan9 suffers. Merely that one has to look at other aspects as well (implying putting in Tstream may not make a huge difference). well, what we do know from one set of measurements is that it makes a measurable difference when latency is measured in the tens of milliseconds. :-) I have done some of these other measurements, e.g. system call overhead. Plan 9 system call time is quite a bit longer than Linux nowadays, when Linux uses the SYSENTER support. Linux maps the kernel in the high 1GB of VM too doesn't it? What does Plan 9 do (haven't looked yet) At the same time, the Plan 9 mon device that Andrey wrote was considerably faster than the procfs-based mon device I wrote: 30K samples/second on Plan 9 vs. 12K samples/second on Linux. John did do some measurement of file system times via the trace device we wrote. I think it's fair to say that the IO path for fossil is considerably slower than the IO path for kernel-based file systems in Linux: slower as in multiples of 10, not multiples. There's a fair amount of copying, allocation, and bouncing in and out of the kernel, and this activity does not come cheap. So, one speculation is that a kernel-based Plan 9 file system might be quite fast. And that's enough random text for a Sunday. Well number of syscalls to hand off delegating filesystem tasks to a userspace filesystem implementation is key. Microkernels try to optimize this as do virtualization hypervisors, because, as observed, bouncing around between kernel and userspace gives performance hopes the beat-down. ron
Re: [9fans] Streaming 9P is out
Awesome! On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 11:24 PM, John Floren slawmas...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, now that the thesis is signed, I feel ready to release my work on streaming for 9P, as outlined in my talk at IWP9; things have changed a lot since that talk, but the general idea remains the same. The repository at https://bitbucket.org/floren/tstream/ contains my code and the thesis documents. I used divergefs to keep my root clean, so that's what's distributed--use divergefs to mount the sys/ in my repo over the /sys on your fs, and you'll probably also want to set up a /386 divergefs mount too. I forgot to add my modified cp, and I'd add it but I'm on a bad wifi connection that seems to be giving hg a bad time. There is a modified exportfs in /sys/src/cmd/exportfs, and really it's not that hard to modify user programs like cp to do streaming, it's all explained in the thesis document. When I get a better connection I'll add the streaming cp to the repo anyway. Anyway, it's far from perfect, but any comments, patches, or suggestions are appreciated. John
Re: [9fans] mooo ...
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:31 AM, EBo e...@sandien.com wrote: On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 04:20:58 +1100, Bruce Ellis wrote: casella digital media. first big test is on sunday for the bon jovi debacle. i might have to be there with a digitical scope and logic analyzer. rather not - it's my birthday and i'll be broken from the GWAR concert previous night. I'll have to look into CDM and GWAR... GWAR is amazing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwar quinine huh? gins and tonic for brucee. Well, I am sure the doctors will tell you to leave off the gin, but who am I to spoil your fun... EBo --
Re: [9fans] Anyone using p9p or Plan 9 venti as a more generic backup system?
Seems a very logical way to go. On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Latchesar Ionkov lu...@ionkov.net wrote: I send the venti scores to my email account and burn them on the DVDs with the arenas. Lucho On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 9:51 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I'm giving consideration to maintaining a venti-based setup for my house for all the digital media we have (since getting our Apple TV, we've had more stuff to stream around the house). I've just now started playing with things like vac/unvac, to backup and extract trees of my HFS+ file system and I wonder about a few things. What do people do if they ever lose their venti scores? Seems like this is handle-less data now, and fairly useless. I figure I could keep a vac archive of venti scores, then I'd only need to remember one, and name the files I store the scores in reasonably, but if that's lost... what are my options? Dave
Re: [9fans] p9p venti sync?
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 6:36 AM, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote: % venti/venti 2010/1116 20:44:14 venti: conf...2010/1116 20:44:14 err 4: read /Users/dave/venti/disks/bloom offset 0x0 count 65536 buf 380 returned 65536: No such file or directory A read of 65536 returning 65536 should not be an error. If you want to dig in, this is $PLAN9/src/cmd/venti/srv/part.c:/^prwb. There have been problems with short reads before. Russ I will look at this later tonight. It only happens when using a bloom file apparently so far. Dave
[9fans] Anyone using p9p or Plan 9 venti as a more generic backup system?
I'm giving consideration to maintaining a venti-based setup for my house for all the digital media we have (since getting our Apple TV, we've had more stuff to stream around the house). I've just now started playing with things like vac/unvac, to backup and extract trees of my HFS+ file system and I wonder about a few things. What do people do if they ever lose their venti scores? Seems like this is handle-less data now, and fairly useless. I figure I could keep a vac archive of venti scores, then I'd only need to remember one, and name the files I store the scores in reasonably, but if that's lost... what are my options? Dave
Re: [9fans] Anyone using p9p or Plan 9 venti as a more generic backup system?
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Venkatesh Srinivas m...@acm.jhu.edu wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:51 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I'm giving consideration to maintaining a venti-based setup for my house for all the digital media we have (since getting our Apple TV, we've had more stuff to stream around the house). I've just now started playing with things like vac/unvac, to backup and extract trees of my HFS+ file system and I wonder about a few things. What do people do if they ever lose their venti scores? Seems like this is handle-less data now, and fairly useless. I figure I could keep a vac archive of venti scores, then I'd only need to remember one, and name the files I store the scores in reasonably, but if that's lost... what are my options? Dave There is a script floating around (dumpvacroots or somesuch) that lets you recover vac scores given access to the venti arenas. I'd be very careful with vac -m and -a on Unix; both have been at the root of considerable data-loss on a unix venti for me. I'd recommend vac-ing tarballs, rather than using vac's on unix trees directly. But your mileage may vary... This is mainly a form of secondary backup for me for now, but given what I learn about it over time, it could become a primary. Are there any open problem reports around this? I might be interested in tackling some of these, or at least trying to reproduce them. I still do some rsync based backups anyway. -- vs
Re: [9fans] Anyone using p9p or Plan 9 venti as a more generic backup system?
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 9:23 AM, dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.comwrote: On Wednesday 17 November 2010 18:14:35 Venkatesh Srinivas wrote: (...) I'd be very careful with vac -m and -a on Unix; both have been at the root of considerable data-loss on a unix venti for me. I'd recommend vac-ing tarballs, rather than using vac's on unix trees directly. But your mileage may vary... could you please elaborate a bit about that data loss? traversing symlinks breaks? some files not getting read by vac at all? (I'm interested in using p9p vac+venti in similar manner, but on Linux w/ GNU stuff) -- dexen deVries I could imagine vac/unvac not dealing with resource forks or POSIX extended attributes and such properly, as well as potentially having difficulty with symlinks, but having dealt with stuff like that in xar, I don't think it's too difficult to address. I may need to read up on venti and see what sorts of data types it supports. Might be time to add some extensions? Dave ``One can't proceed from the informal to the formal by formal means.''
[9fans] p9p venti sync?
I'm trying to figure out how to correctly sync a plan9port venti instance so I can start it back up again and have it actually function :-). using venti/sync doesn't appear to get the job done... Dave
Re: [9fans] p9p venti sync?
On Tuesday, November 16, 2010, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 5:43 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I'm trying to figure out how to correctly sync a plan9port venti instance so I can start it back up again and have it actually function :-). using venti/sync doesn't appear to get the job done... It should. Not using venti/sync should work too since vac etc all sync before hanging up. The flushicache/flushdcache trick will make restarting a little faster, but it should not be necessary for correctness and shouldn't even be that much faster. I did a kill TERM... should the signal handler have cleaned up or was I supposed to send HUP? Russ
Re: [9fans] p9p venti sync?
Could sparse files be an issue? Bloom always shows up wrong when I restart. On Tuesday, November 16, 2010, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, November 16, 2010, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 5:43 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I'm trying to figure out how to correctly sync a plan9port venti instance so I can start it back up again and have it actually function :-). using venti/sync doesn't appear to get the job done... It should. Not using venti/sync should work too since vac etc all sync before hanging up. The flushicache/flushdcache trick will make restarting a little faster, but it should not be necessary for correctness and shouldn't even be that much faster. I did a kill TERM... should the signal handler have cleaned up or was I supposed to send HUP? Russ
Re: [9fans] p9p venti sync?
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 8:09 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: Could sparse files be an issue? Bloom always shows up wrong when I restart. Nope... Didn't make a difference it seems. I recreated my venti setup, and it starts ok. I do a vac and an unvac, then kill it and restart and get the following: % venti/venti 2010/1116 20:44:14 venti: conf...2010/1116 20:44:14 err 4: read /Users/dave/venti/disks/bloom offset 0x0 count 65536 buf 380 returned 65536: No such file or directory venti/venti: can't load bloom filter: read /Users/dave/venti/disks/bloom offset 0x0 count 65536 buf 380 returned 65536: No such file or directory bloom is definitely there though... Not sure what the no such file or directory is referring to just yet. -rw-r--r-- 1 dave wheel 33554432 Nov 16 20:42 bloom I'll try without the bloom filter. On Tuesday, November 16, 2010, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, November 16, 2010, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 5:43 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I'm trying to figure out how to correctly sync a plan9port venti instance so I can start it back up again and have it actually function :-). using venti/sync doesn't appear to get the job done... It should. Not using venti/sync should work too since vac etc all sync before hanging up. The flushicache/flushdcache trick will make restarting a little faster, but it should not be necessary for correctness and shouldn't even be that much faster. I did a kill TERM... should the signal handler have cleaned up or was I supposed to send HUP? Russ
Re: [9fans] p9p venti sync?
I'll try without the bloom filter. Now it's working... I probably don't need this enhancement anyway, but at least it appears to be working now. Unvac of a previously generated score is working fine. Dave On Tuesday, November 16, 2010, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, November 16, 2010, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 5:43 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I'm trying to figure out how to correctly sync a plan9port venti instance so I can start it back up again and have it actually function :-). using venti/sync doesn't appear to get the job done... It should. Not using venti/sync should work too since vac etc all sync before hanging up. The flushicache/flushdcache trick will make restarting a little faster, but it should not be necessary for correctness and shouldn't even be that much faster. I did a kill TERM... should the signal handler have cleaned up or was I supposed to send HUP? Russ
[9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
Anyone else having trouble getting equis installed via contrib/install? I tried to do this this morning, as I was interested in giving cinap_lenrek's dillo rc bundle a spin, and figured I needed X11 for that, but it might already be there (it's failing). X11 didn't succeed in installing, and it seems my /tmp has been affected somehow. Now for every retry i'm having to use ramfs to create a new /tmp before starting. I had to manually cleanup the /dist/replica/X11 file as well so it didn't think it was already installed. I've been thinking there might be a way for me to contribute to contrib here with failure cleanup, once I get a good handle on how it all works. Dave
Re: [9fans] 9p vs http
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Sam Watkins s...@nipl.net wrote: hi, I am wondering what you think about the capabilities of 9p compared to http/1.1. Perhaps this seems like an odd comparison, but I think 9p and http are broadly similar in purpose and functionality. While writing a simple webserver, I got to thinking that http is really a very capable protocol. http is text-based, it supports pipelining and arbitraty metadata. As far as I know, 9p does not support pipelining nor arbitraty metadata. It seems to me that these are big advantages for http. 9p supports walking; are there other things 9p can do which http cannot, which give 9p a significant advantage? Am I correct, that 9p does not support pipelining? I suppose this would be a big problem. For example, with http pipelining one may ask a server to HEAD (like stat) 10,000 files together, without having to wait for the responses. Over a high latency link (e.g. Australia - USA), this might save perhaps an hour of waiting. Under certain situations, 9p can do some forms of pipelining. The tagged requests don't have to be waited on in order, for the next outgoing request to be sent, unless there's a dependency of one completing before the other, or the evaluation of completion of a previous one on another. Such an asyncronous interface might be useful even when accessing local disks - if the filesystem receives 100 open/read/stat requests bundled together, it might optimise disk access to minimise seeking, as is commonly done for writes. By the way, I read the other day on this list that there is no need to improve cat(1). Well for me, I still feel that the command `cat` without args should concatenate 0 files (producing no output), not copy stdin to stdout! That's an interesting point of view. I think the concept of standard input is that if no input is given, it was going to be the fallback. Same goes for standard output. With that said, I think cat is behaving just fine to take no arguments and then default to the standard input and output :-). Sam
Re: [9fans] another type of static linking: send all the shared libraries with the program!
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Jeff Sickel j...@corpus-callosum.comwrote: On Nov 13, 2010, at 5:14 PM, David Leimbach wrote: Isn't this what Apple does recommend you do with application bundles? Ship the whole directory (.app) with all requisite frameworks and libs? That's the recommended approach for certain types of distributions. The alternative approach is to not do shared/dynamic libraries in the code you ship. That way the only dynamically linked code is that used in the system frameworks. Many folks also find that their applications launch faster when not traversing all sorts of dyldhell. 2-level namespaces help with that too. You can bind paths to particular shared library instances that you're interested in. There's still the open-ended question of bundles of loadable modules, if you need them. There's also this vague memory I have of being deeply concerned about a direction I swear I read somewhere on an Apple developer mailing list about static libraries not being supported going forward with Mac OS X. -jas
Re: [9fans] 9p vs http
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Venkatesh Srinivas m...@acm.jhu.edu wrote: Under certain situations, 9p can do some forms of pipelining. The tagged requests don't have to be waited on in order, for the next outgoing request to be sent, unless there's a dependency of one completing before the other, or the evaluation of completion of a previous one on another. Only if the file file server involved are decent. -- vs Yes. I think that's the definition of decent, but I'm not really up to date on that enough to converse about decency...
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:01 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: the contrib tools are based on replica and in my experience that makes them slow and fragile. You might want to give the 9pm stuff I did a try. It works,it's far faster, and they're trivial shell scripts that are easy to understand. Simple example, installing openssh is about 50 times faster -- minutes vs. hours -- using 9pm. Ah blast 9grid.net went away, I will get the guys to go kick it. I was going to ask for a link to 9pm. Is it on 9grid? I guess I'll search the archives to find out what 9pm is :-). Dave ron
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:04 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:01 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: the contrib tools are based on replica and in my experience that makes them slow and fragile. You might want to give the 9pm stuff I did a try. It works,it's far faster, and they're trivial shell scripts that are easy to understand. Simple example, installing openssh is about 50 times faster -- minutes vs. hours -- using 9pm. Ah blast 9grid.net went away, I will get the guys to go kick it. I was going to ask for a link to 9pm. Is it on 9grid? I guess I'll search the archives to find out what 9pm is :-). Dave Ah I've located your bitbucket... https://bitbucket.org/rminnich/plan9tools/src/tip/9pm/announcement Now I remember what this is. 9pm was the name of a predecessor to plan9port too IIRC. Dave ron
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:17 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:12 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: I've been thinking there might be a way for me to contribute to contrib here with failure cleanup, once I get a good handle on how it all works. contrib/remove didn't work? I did not try it. Does it work on half-installed stuff? I didn't want to try it as I was having very strange behavior of /tmp after a failed contrib/install. I just tried contrib/remove, lots of files were rm -f'd, and in the end, contrib/install says it's still installed. - erik
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:15 AM, Stanley Lieber stanley.lie...@gmail.comwrote: For what it's worth, I installed equis via contrib/install about a week ago and it worked. Slow, but everything installed and I was able to use it. Thanks for that feedback. I'm having some issues with it not completing, and now /tmp says clone failed when I try to ls from a cwd of /tmp. -sl
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:24 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: having very strange behavior of /tmp after a failed contrib/install. sounds like magic. what is the behavior? getting clone failed when doing ls from a cwd of /tmp. I ended up just firing up another ramfs to move on. It looks like X11 is now installing via contrib after some manual cleanup in /dist/replica of X11 and the client subdir's X11 files. I don't honestly know what happened during the very first attempt. Could have been a network interruption I suppose, but it's difficult to tell. Dave - erik
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:27 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:24 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: having very strange behavior of /tmp after a failed contrib/install. sounds like magic. what is the behavior? getting clone failed when doing ls from a cwd of /tmp. I ended up just firing up another ramfs to move on. It looks like X11 is now installing via contrib after some manual cleanup in /dist/replica of X11 and the client subdir's X11 files. I don't honestly know what happened during the very first attempt. Could have been a network interruption I suppose, but it's difficult to tell. Dave Ah now we're failing again: error: copying /386/bin/X11/equis: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/twm: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xclock: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xev: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xset: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist - erik
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 10:34 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:46 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:36 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: Ah now we're failing again: error: copying /386/bin/X11/equis: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/twm: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xclock: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xev: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xset: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist been there, done that too. I realize that this all works for some people, just not for me (and a few others). And, really, it should not take hours to install a package. It should not take longer to install openssh than it takes to install ubuntu. But it does. ron Well I just think I found out what happened to ramfs. I think I just plain ran out of RAM. :-( Dave Nope, I upped my RAM, cleaned up, and tried again, and I'm still getting those errors :-( 9grid appears to still be down so I can't give Ron's 9pm a shot. Dave
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Yaroslav yari...@gmail.com wrote: error: copying /386/bin/X11/equis: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/twm: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xclock: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xev: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xset: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist Do you run stats(1) while doing the pull? Does it shows any anomalities, especially memory consuption? - Yaroslav I've not looked at memory consumption, but load and such look pretty normal. I'm running with 512MB RAM at the moment in the VM. Dave
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Federico G. Benavento benave...@gmail.comwrote: also it shouldn't take that long... if you have the latest contrib tools what happens it's this: it first fcp's an iso.bz2 to your /tmp and runs replica from there. of course that iso.bz2 is 22 MB, but that's not contrib's fault I installed the contrib tools today, so those are pretty new. I wonder if my tmp is big enough... I've got 512MB of ram but I don't know the size of my tmp off the top of my head. I'll have to look at it later. Dave On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Federico G. Benavento benave...@gmail.com wrote: the easiest way to reinstall is % contrib/install -f usr/pkg On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 6:52 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Yaroslav yari...@gmail.com wrote: error: copying /386/bin/X11/equis: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/twm: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xclock: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xev: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xset: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist Do you run stats(1) while doing the pull? Does it shows any anomalities, especially memory consuption? - Yaroslav I've not looked at memory consumption, but load and such look pretty normal. I'm running with 512MB RAM at the moment in the VM. Dave -- Federico G. Benavento -- Federico G. Benavento
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 3:42 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Federico G. Benavento benave...@gmail.com wrote: also it shouldn't take that long... if you have the latest contrib tools what happens it's this: it first fcp's an iso.bz2 to your /tmp and runs replica from there. of course that iso.bz2 is 22 MB, but that's not contrib's fault I installed the contrib tools today, so those are pretty new. I wonder if my tmp is big enough... I've got 512MB of ram but I don't know the size of my tmp off the top of my head. I'll have to look at it later. Dave I should just try again with ramfs -u I suppose (unlimited... pheer!) Dave On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Federico G. Benavento benave...@gmail.com wrote: the easiest way to reinstall is % contrib/install -f usr/pkg On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 6:52 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Yaroslav yari...@gmail.com wrote: error: copying /386/bin/X11/equis: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/twm: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xclock: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xev: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xset: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist Do you run stats(1) while doing the pull? Does it shows any anomalities, especially memory consuption? - Yaroslav I've not looked at memory consumption, but load and such look pretty normal. I'm running with 512MB RAM at the moment in the VM. Dave -- Federico G. Benavento -- Federico G. Benavento
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 3:45 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 3:42 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Federico G. Benavento benave...@gmail.com wrote: also it shouldn't take that long... if you have the latest contrib tools what happens it's this: it first fcp's an iso.bz2 to your /tmp and runs replica from there. of course that iso.bz2 is 22 MB, but that's not contrib's fault I installed the contrib tools today, so those are pretty new. I wonder if my tmp is big enough... I've got 512MB of ram but I don't know the size of my tmp off the top of my head. I'll have to look at it later. Dave I should just try again with ramfs -u I suppose (unlimited... pheer!) That did not help at all. Could the ISO be messed up? error: copying /sys/src/ape/X11/lib/dmx/man/DMXChangeScreensAttributes.: '/n/dist/sys/src/ape/X11/lib/dmx/man/DMXChangeScreensAttributes.' does not exist Dave Dave On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Federico G. Benavento benave...@gmail.com wrote: the easiest way to reinstall is % contrib/install -f usr/pkg On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 6:52 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Yaroslav yari...@gmail.com wrote: error: copying /386/bin/X11/equis: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/twm: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xclock: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xev: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist error: copying /386/bin/X11/xset: '/n/dist/386/bin' does not exist Do you run stats(1) while doing the pull? Does it shows any anomalities, especially memory consuption? - Yaroslav I've not looked at memory consumption, but load and such look pretty normal. I'm running with 512MB RAM at the moment in the VM. Dave -- Federico G. Benavento -- Federico G. Benavento
Re: [9fans] contrib/install fgb/X11?
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Federico G. Benavento benave...@gmail.comwrote: ok, dillo is a linux binary, right? and it looks like is looking for a unix socket, but equis has APE sockets! so for dillo try tcp DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:0 I did try that, thinking that could have been the problem. It didn't work, but I got a different error. cpu% ./dillo [625584] syscall 191/ugetrlimit not implemented [625584] syscall 149/sysctl not implemented Gdk-WARNING **: locale not supported by Xlib, locale set to C Gdk-WARNING **: can not set locale modifiers [625584] syscall 209/newgetresuid not implemented segbrk failed in munmap: device or object already in usecpu% On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 1:47 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 4:59 PM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Federico G. Benavento benave...@gmail.com wrote: also it shouldn't take that long... if you have the latest contrib tools what happens it's this: it first fcp's an iso.bz2 to your /tmp and runs replica from there. neat. That's a good step. 9pm won't use replica but at the same time this looks like a great idea. ron Ah ok, well it does in fact appear to be working. Took me a minute to realize I needed to set my DISPLAY to :0. I have an old shell bundle of linuxemu dillo, but that does *not* work. Xclock does. cpu% ./dillo [624803] syscall 191/ugetrlimit not implemented [624803] syscall 149/sysctl not implemented Gdk-WARNING **: locale not supported by Xlib, locale set to C Gdk-WARNING **: can not set locale modifiers [624803] syscall 209/newgetresuid not implemented _X11TransSocketOpen: socket() failed for local _X11TransSocketOpenCOTSClient: Unable to open socket for local _X11TransOpen: transport open failed for local/virtualbunny:0 Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display: :0 cpu% Dave -- Federico G. Benavento
Re: [9fans] webfs + mozilla
On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 12:56 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: In longer terms, I'd also replace mozilla's handling of other protocols, eg. ftp, by an webfs implementation. What do you think about this ? webfs is client side, not server side. - erik I must confess, I understood the question more than this comment. Why not use webfs for Mozilla? How much code could be saved by re-using the webfs service?
Re: [9fans] another type of static linking: send all the shared libraries with the program!
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:21 PM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: I can't help it, this one struck me as quite funny, after all the shared library discussions we've had on this list. A Stanford researcher, Philip Guo, has developed a tool called CDE to automatically package up a Linux program and all its dependencies (including system-level libraries, fonts, etc!) so that it can be run out of the box on another Linux machine without a lot of complicated work setting up libraries and program versions or dealing with dependency version hell. OK, so this is better than static linking how? Oh yeah you get the fonts. And all the incompatible programs across distros. Isn't this what Apple does recommend you do with application bundles? Ship the whole directory (.app) with all requisite frameworks and libs? So they've made the whole shared library mess so incredibly complex that you now have to bundle a program's shared libraries with the program! Un-bee-lievable. The standard rule is, when you're in a hole, stop digging; that seems not to apply in software nowadays. ron
Re: [9fans] another type of static linking: send all the shared libraries with the program!
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:37 PM, Federico G. Benavento benave...@gmail.com wrote: cinap did years ago for linux emu http://9hal.ath.cx/usr/cinap_lenrek/lbun/mklbun which packages linuxemu, the linux exec you want and the required libs all in an rc bundle that you can execute as a regular program in: http://9hal.ath.cx/magic/webls?dir=/usr/cinap_lenrek/lbun you have lbuns for svn, bash and others that just work on Plan 9 Sounds handy for those programs you just *must* have. Sometimes I want a reasonable web browser on Plan 9 (where no web browser is a reasonable idea). On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 4:21 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: I can't help it, this one struck me as quite funny, after all the shared library discussions we've had on this list. A Stanford researcher, Philip Guo, has developed a tool called CDE to automatically package up a Linux program and all its dependencies (including system-level libraries, fonts, etc!) so that it can be run out of the box on another Linux machine without a lot of complicated work setting up libraries and program versions or dealing with dependency version hell. OK, so this is better than static linking how? Oh yeah you get the fonts. And all the incompatible programs across distros. So they've made the whole shared library mess so incredibly complex that you now have to bundle a program's shared libraries with the program! Un-bee-lievable. The standard rule is, when you're in a hole, stop digging; that seems not to apply in software nowadays. ron -- Federico G. Benavento
Re: [9fans] p9p factotum available for plan 9
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 1:07 AM, EBo e...@sandien.com wrote: Does anyone use 9P2000.u anymore? Can we just remove it from the p9p tree? Last summer when I was banging my head against the bug in alloctree I got it all to work when I removed 9P2000.u and some other stuff from lib9p/srv.c. At that time I got a comment back that the patches I proposed would likely not be accepted, in part because I removed the 9P2000.u code... If there are no objections to removing 9P2000.u, I can tell you that migrating p9p's srv.c code back to Plan 9's version does in fact fix the bugs in Tree. I was simply not sure how many of the changes had to be reverted to make alloctree work properly. It seems like a good idea to removing .u. I think I can add .u back to some other 9P implementations I have if I want it. Dave EBo --
Re: [9fans] dvips(1) for Plan9: done
That's really great! Thank you for sharing! Just wondering if you'd tried ConTeXt on it (I believe it should work as I think it's also macros like LaTeX is on top of TeX). Dave On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 8:06 AM, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: And I have forgotten the links: http://www.kergis.com/kertex.html (français) http://www.kergis.com/en/kertex.html (laronde's pseudo-english) -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] VMware resolution 1024?
It's not a solution to your problem, but what I typically like to do for a console these days is use either 9vx or drawterm, and then setup VMWare as a CPU/FS server. Dave On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Don Bailey don.bai...@gmail.com wrote: Am I missing something? VMware used to have better screen resolution than 1024x768x8, didn't it? I'm getting kernel panic when I try and switch to something higher. Suggestions? Thanks, D
Re: [9fans] p9p factotum available for plan 9
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 7:37 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: On Wed Nov 3 17:15:36 EDT 2010, quans...@quanstro.net wrote: contrib/install quanstro/nfactotum imap/smtpd passwd and cram and are untested. imap4d with a password (which uses cram) now works. imap4d with a cram challenge does not. telnet (server) is known broken. i don't think it's a hard fix. telnet now works. - erik This is tangential to the topic, but has anyone written up a how I use p9p configuration style document? I've not really tried to use factotum from p9p, because I was not even sure if it worked. Also the one time I tried to set up venti from p9p I basically failed horribly, and wasn't really sure what I did wrong. (I should read the installation scripts for Plan 9 and the man pages but haven't had time to get back to it). I'm wondering things like can I use p9p venti as a snapshot back end to a VMWare Plan 9 Fossil? I'd also like to host the blocks for my guruplug on my Mac OS X system directly with p9p venti if I could. I feel I'm missing out on a few really great opportunities to use this stuff, and I doubt I'm the only one :-). That said, I use p9p Acme all the time, and it's wonderful!
[9fans] anyone else having difficulty booting kw today?
I just did a pull and a recompile. The kernel boots to the point where it wants to get the root. I tell it the same root server I used before the rebuild, and the prompt comes back again asking for the root. Any thoughts on where I should look? usb/hub... root is from (tcp)[tcp]: 192.168.1.250 root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: Dave
Re: [9fans] anyone else having difficulty booting kw today?
OOPS dumb mistake on my part... I should have just pressed enter there. I really ought to script that. On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 9:41 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I just did a pull and a recompile. The kernel boots to the point where it wants to get the root. I tell it the same root server I used before the rebuild, and the prompt comes back again asking for the root. Any thoughts on where I should look? usb/hub... root is from (tcp)[tcp]: 192.168.1.250 root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: root is from (tcp)[192.168.1.250]: Dave
Re: [9fans] Plan9 development
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 10:32 AM, dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.comwrote: On Friday 05 of November 2010 18:18:44 Nick LaForge wrote: A honest question: what is the rationale for merging functionality of make and shell into one? Use your imagination Tried, failed. To me, make is a tool for generating an acyclic, directed graph of dependencies between build steps from some explicit and some wildcard rules -- and then traversing it in a sensible order. How's that for daily use shell? Why is a shell that can generate acyclic digraphs of dependencies bad? Someone clearly found a use for it at some point or it wouldn't have been done. I guess one could try to use make as an init system for services in a configuration, but I don't see why not having those features in a shell is better than having those features in a shell. I do not currently use mash, however, I wonder if it's suitable for a startup mechanism for services just after booting a kernel, to get stuff started in the right order, without lavish attempts at building up those dependencies in a script that can't make acyclic digraphs of dependencies make sense natively. Perhaps something about `doing a reasonable action for every target file named on the command line'? The possibilities are finite! -- dx
Re: [9fans] we all hava a secret life...
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:13 AM, Gorka Guardiola pau...@gmail.com wrote: I got spam today anouncing Richard Miller PhD at Yoga yoga... :-) http://www.yogayoga.com/special-events/special-topics-richard-miller -- - curiosity sKilled the cat I've been getting more creative spams lately too. They're almost worthy of reading.
Re: [9fans] Plan9 development
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Admiral Fukov admiralfu...@gmail.comwrote: I'm looking at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/ and I noticed that most of the distribution hasn't been updated in years. Is the development of plan 9 abandoned? There's a plan9changes google group I believe that will let you see the commits that have been going in. Plan 9 is satisfying all it's users' needs at the moment. There have been proposals to make it more linuxy in the past, but we know where linux is if we want it. That's not to say people aren't exploring new ways to develop it and make it a better Plan 9.
Re: [9fans] glean
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: New toy if anyone is interested, a bit of fun really. glean - a network reconnaissance tool. listens to your ethernet, parses NetBIOS and DHCP requests, mounts itself on /lib/ndb/gleaned which is an ndb(6) file of what it has discovered. /n/sources/contrib/steve/glean.tgz -Steve Very neat!
Re: [9fans] Plan9 development
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 9:00 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Admiral Fukov admiralfu...@gmail.com wrote: I'm looking at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/ and I noticed that most of the distribution hasn't been updated in years. Is the development of plan 9 abandoned? There's a plan9changes google group I believe that will let you see the commits that have been going in. Plan 9 is satisfying all it's users' needs at the moment. There have been proposals to make it more linuxy in the past, but we know where linux is if we want it. That's not to say people aren't exploring new ways to develop it and make it a better Plan 9. isn't the posting name Admiral Fukov enough to clue us in that this is just a troll? that and the fact we get this one about once a year? - erik Maybe. If it's a troll, it is pointing out something that might not be obvious to people on the outside. People are still using Plan 9 People are still working on Plan 9
[9fans] T/RStream?
Is there anywhere to go see the work in progress for this? If I can't see the work can we at least talk about the encoding of TStream and RStream? I could see wanting to work this into the user space implementations of 9P that exist for various programming languages. Dave
[9fans] Preferred ARM platform?
I've been having a pretty good experience with the Guruplug with Plan 9 (I have the standard model that doesn't overheat so far and only one Gb ethernet), thanks to the efforts of the Plan 9 and Inferno communities. Unless I read incorrectly, the Beagleboard platforms are easier to work with for Plan 9 developers, as Marvell believes having done a port to linux is enough documentation for anyone. Is this still the case, and if so, would we be better off with Beagleboard machines? I'm just curious as to what's believed to be sustainable in the long term, and think these ARM platforms are just swell (gee golly) despite the headaches getting stuff ported, especially when they run a sane OS like Plan 9/Inferno. Dave
Re: [9fans] T/RStream?
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:19 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 7:41 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I could see wanting to work this into the user space implementations of 9P that exist for various programming languages. Andrey did work it into the Newsham code and it worked well, I think he still has it. ron Cool. You mean Newsham's Python code or Newsham's Haskell code? :-)
Re: [9fans] A little more ado about async Tclunk
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Charles Forsyth fors...@terzarima.netwrote: things up with standard (as opposed to synthetic) file systems? why should a synthetic file system (actually they are all synthetic, i think) be considered not standard? i thought file systems were the common currency in the system. All file systems are synthetic, some are backed by disk blocks, or other goo. File systems are nothing more than a namespace abstraction on X, where you get to decide what X is if you're implementing one. This is what I've been trying to communicate to my software development teams last year, and they very nearly got it :-). I think functional programming or at least category theory gets you into these upper level abstract ways of thinking that help with making such nonsense into sense. (I'm not sure that last sentence really parses, but since I've lost my backspace key, there it is) Dave
Re: [9fans] A little more ado about async Tclunk
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Charles Forsyth fors...@terzarima.netwrote: I think functional programming or at least category theory gets you into these upper level abstract ways of thinking uh oh. is there an analogy to Godwin's Law for mentioning category theory? I hope not... I'm merely trying to say the act of moving a problem between languages can shed some light from time to time. Category Theory really doesn't say too much in general, but oddly enough it applies nicely to computer science. What's that mean? :-)
Re: [9fans] A little more ado about async Tclunk
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:17 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.comwrote: On Fri Oct 29 13:15:45 EDT 2010, fors...@terzarima.net wrote: Let's try to define 'decent' for this thread -- a decent fileserver is one on which close()s do not have any client-visible or semantic effect other than to invalidate the Fid that was passed to them. Lets see how many file servers we can think of that are 'decent': fossil, kfs, ken, memfs, ... unfortunately, fossil and kfs both can have important visible state changes on a clunk, so that lets them out. i think we're reducing this down to it's easy to cache the hell out of immutable files. Well that's like memoization of a pure function. The answer is yes, because if the output of a function doesn't change when the same input is applied, the function is just a table lookup anyway. Same should hold true for immutable files and the operations available on them not being able to change the state. When dependent state doesn't change, concurrency is easier to get right. Dave - erik
Re: [9fans] A little more ado about async Tclunk
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:26 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: Category Theory really doesn't say too much in general, but oddly enough it applies nicely to computer science. What's that mean? :-) that they're both abstract nonsense. - erik Yeah... the most fun I had making something concrete was last weekend when I wore to nasty blisters into my hands debarking about 170 feet of 18 inch logs for a structure to camp under year round. Computer software doesn't often leave one with much to stand back and admire. At least not so much that non-software people can appreciate with you :-). Sometimes it's nice to do things less abstract. Dave
Re: [9fans] A little more ado about async Tclunk
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Gorka Guardiola pau...@gmail.com wrote: Let's try to define 'decent' for this thread -- a decent fileserver is one on which close()s do not have any client-visible or semantic effect other than to invalidate the Fid that was passed to them. Lets see how many file servers we can think of that are 'decent': fossil, kfs, ken, Decent meant cacheable. Your meaning as nemo said... not so decent. cacheable != clunk is nop even further cacheable != clunk can be processed asynchronously. Both concepts are orthogonal. It might be more useful to think of it in terms of what it *does* mean. Asynchronous clunkableness == no dependencies on ordering of clunk processing to the next open call? Cacheability can mean a lot of stuff depending on what is being cached, and how such a cache becomes invalidated and refreshed. I agree it's orthogonal. Cathegory theory is useful for thinking about topology and other things. It is not abstract nonsense, only abstract. It *is* noise in this thread though. It's tangentially related to an off to the side comment about cacheability. But yes it's definitely noise :-).
Re: [9fans] kw audio -- /dev/audio and friends
It seems like that would be a reasonable approach, to translate one older interface to the next, if needed, as a compatibility FS. In fact, one such compatibility FS could serve several translations. The best way to deal is to force everyone to update now, or cease functioning, in my opinion. This is where that 'benevolent dictator' approach can really be an advantage, and the disturbance is not usually too bad if you're in a small enough community. Dave On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Skip Tavakkolian skip.tavakkol...@gmail.com wrote: would it be hard to provide the backward compatibility via a user fs -- at least until apps are updated to the new structure? On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Anthony Sorace a...@9srv.net wrote: I've misplaced my USB audio kit, but I'm reasonably sure I read from /dev/audio (and a cursory reading of the source suggests that ought to work). Is there any reason to do otherwise? I don't know what audioin is intended to buy. Given that it's never been in audio(3), I'm not sure it's important to support it. It's unfortunate that volume and audioctl don't support the same language. Don't add another. It's pretty easy to handle both; see /sys/src/cmd/usb/audio/audiofs.c. The one for audioctl is reasonably regular and comprehensive; it'd be nice to standardize our audio interfaces around that. I'm more interested in audiostat. I don't see that in the usb implementation, and I'm not clear on whether it could be provided there. Anyone know? Should audio programs treat that as optional? deprecation in unix is a mess, where things can stay deprecated for ages. it'd be nice to be able to say /dev/volume (or /dev/eia0status) was a mistake; here's a backwards-compatible improvement, and the old stuff goes away in 6 months.
Re: [9fans] fOSSa
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:57 AM, Charles Forsyth fors...@terzarima.netwrote: http://reflex.gforge.inria.fr/ that's certainly remarkable. I think my wrists seized up just thinking about programming in XML.
Re: [9fans] fOSSa
2010/10/26 ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com Design : Philippe Poulard Development : Philippe Poulard Documentation : Philippe Poulard Tests : Philippe Poulard Web site : Philippe Poulard Logo : Philippe Poulard Packaging : Philippe Poulard Manager : Philippe Poulard So. Who are those guys? Phillippe Poulard: Phillippe Poulard. ron
Re: [9fans] Why not work for a company based on Plan 9?
Brantley, I'm asking publicly because I'm betting it's a FAQ. Do you consider remote employees as a possibility, or do you require relocation? Dave On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 7:15 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com wrote: hi guys, as most on this list know, coraid makes storage devices that use plan 9 as the software platform. we also use it as our primary development environment. we still run a ken file server here. plan 9 is fundamental to our vision. coraid has become a hot silicon valley property and we are about to start another round of hiring developers. i knew it would be a disservice to this mailing list if i didn't make an announcement here. developers, qa, and support folks can work either in redwood city, ca or athens, ga. there are the usual up and coming silicon valley startup stock options. and in athens, you don't have to pay those silicon valley prices for housing and beer. athens is very affordable on both these counts, especially the beer as anyone who attended the 2009 iwp9 will attest. i hope we're creating a place that i would have wanted to work. it's not every place that you can work with plan 9, get paid for it and participate in a high potential start-up. please send resume's to me. brantley
Re: [9fans] Why not work for a company based on Plan 9?
That's actually not an answer but whatever... I guess I don't actually care. On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com wrote: the positions are in redwood city, ca and athens, ga. On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:17 AM, David Leimbach wrote: Brantley, I'm asking publicly because I'm betting it's a FAQ. Do you consider remote employees as a possibility, or do you require relocation? Dave On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 7:15 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com wrote: hi guys, as most on this list know, coraid makes storage devices that use plan 9 as the software platform. we also use it as our primary development environment. we still run a ken file server here. plan 9 is fundamental to our vision. coraid has become a hot silicon valley property and we are about to start another round of hiring developers. i knew it would be a disservice to this mailing list if i didn't make an announcement here. developers, qa, and support folks can work either in redwood city, ca or athens, ga. there are the usual up and coming silicon valley startup stock options. and in athens, you don't have to pay those silicon valley prices for housing and beer. athens is very affordable on both these counts, especially the beer as anyone who attended the 2009 iwp9 will attest. i hope we're creating a place that i would have wanted to work. it's not every place that you can work with plan 9, get paid for it and participate in a high potential start-up. please send resume's to me. brantley
Re: [9fans] Why not work for a company based on Plan 9?
Thank you for answering the question. Let me explain my point of view on the exchange. I worked for a company in Birmingham AL for about 6 years from Seattle. I had Birmingham insurance, Birmingham HR people etc, but I was remote. I thought perhaps it was not clear if one could be a satellite employee for one of those offices or not. I felt that when you basically cut and pasted your response to me, that you were irritated by my question and answering me in a rude way. I was not trying to troll the thread, but now it may appear to be the opposite. I have a lot of respect for what you guys have done with Plan 9 and AOE, and think it's an interesting business, but suddenly I felt that perhaps I wouldn't have a compatible personality with the boss. Anyway, I'd like to reboot the discussion, but it's in the archives now :-). I do wish you, very sincerely, to have continued success with your business. Dave On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com wrote: i'm sorry. those who are not in silicon valley or northeast georgia will have to relocate. On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:30 AM, David Leimbach wrote: That's actually not an answer but whatever... I guess I don't actually care. On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com wrote: the positions are in redwood city, ca and athens, ga. On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:17 AM, David Leimbach wrote: Brantley, I'm asking publicly because I'm betting it's a FAQ. Do you consider remote employees as a possibility, or do you require relocation? Dave On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 7:15 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com wrote: hi guys, as most on this list know, coraid makes storage devices that use plan 9 as the software platform. we also use it as our primary development environment. we still run a ken file server here. plan 9 is fundamental to our vision. coraid has become a hot silicon valley property and we are about to start another round of hiring developers. i knew it would be a disservice to this mailing list if i didn't make an announcement here. developers, qa, and support folks can work either in redwood city, ca or athens, ga. there are the usual up and coming silicon valley startup stock options. and in athens, you don't have to pay those silicon valley prices for housing and beer. athens is very affordable on both these counts, especially the beer as anyone who attended the 2009 iwp9 will attest. i hope we're creating a place that i would have wanted to work. it's not every place that you can work with plan 9, get paid for it and participate in a high potential start-up. please send resume's to me. brantley
Re: [9fans] Why not work for a company based on Plan 9?
Brantley, I apologize for my confrontational attitude. It's totally unnecessary, and I wish that I could take it all back. You certainly didn't deserve it, and the 9fans aren't deserving the noise I've caused by my stupid approach to this thread. Dave On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.comwrote: dave, no problem. i didn't cut and paste the answer, but i'm very sorry that i gave that impression. i'm a pretty easygoing guy, a fact that isn't obvious over an email list. i wasn't irritated by the question at all. the question was a very good one. the reason we can't do remote employees is that one of our objectives is that plan9ers have a positive cultural influence on the entire development group. i feel such an influence requires daily interaction. but we will keep you in mind as we grow. in all my interactions i try to emulate the gentlemanly ways of dennis ritchie. brantley On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:55 AM, David Leimbach wrote: Thank you for answering the question. Let me explain my point of view on the exchange. I worked for a company in Birmingham AL for about 6 years from Seattle. I had Birmingham insurance, Birmingham HR people etc, but I was remote. I thought perhaps it was not clear if one could be a satellite employee for one of those offices or not. I felt that when you basically cut and pasted your response to me, that you were irritated by my question and answering me in a rude way. I was not trying to troll the thread, but now it may appear to be the opposite. I have a lot of respect for what you guys have done with Plan 9 and AOE, and think it's an interesting business, but suddenly I felt that perhaps I wouldn't have a compatible personality with the boss. Anyway, I'd like to reboot the discussion, but it's in the archives now :-). I do wish you, very sincerely, to have continued success with your business. Dave On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com wrote: i'm sorry. those who are not in silicon valley or northeast georgia will have to relocate. On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:30 AM, David Leimbach wrote: That's actually not an answer but whatever... I guess I don't actually care. On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com wrote: the positions are in redwood city, ca and athens, ga. On Oct 25, 2010, at 11:17 AM, David Leimbach wrote: Brantley, I'm asking publicly because I'm betting it's a FAQ. Do you consider remote employees as a possibility, or do you require relocation? Dave On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 7:15 AM, Brantley Coile brant...@coraid.com wrote: hi guys, as most on this list know, coraid makes storage devices that use plan 9 as the software platform. we also use it as our primary development environment. we still run a ken file server here. plan 9 is fundamental to our vision. coraid has become a hot silicon valley property and we are about to start another round of hiring developers. i knew it would be a disservice to this mailing list if i didn't make an announcement here. developers, qa, and support folks can work either in redwood city, ca or athens, ga. there are the usual up and coming silicon valley startup stock options. and in athens, you don't have to pay those silicon valley prices for housing and beer. athens is very affordable on both these counts, especially the beer as anyone who attended the 2009 iwp9 will attest. i hope we're creating a place that i would have wanted to work. it's not every place that you can work with plan 9, get paid for it and participate in a high potential start-up. please send resume's to me. brantley
Re: [9fans] Fifth Edition
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 3:19 AM, Lucio De Re lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:02:22AM +, Mark Tuson wrote: Steve, would you be willing to share copies of the demo discs? Which architecture do they use? I just want to play with something ancient as well as modern, then I'll feel like I have a better feel for the system. I can't imagine any logical reason why this should be submitted as a public message. ++L I can't imagine any logical reason why pointing that out should have been a public message either. Or why this message should have been a public message pointing that out. But alas there they are, archived for eternity, on the internet. Shame really.
Re: [9fans] drawterm fork for iOS
I didn't even know this existed! I can add this to my guruplug vmware setup. Very cool! On Saturday, October 16, 2010, Jeff Sickel j...@corpus-callosum.com wrote: I've forked Russ' drawterm on bitbucket.org in order to get Andre's GSOC iPhone/iOS port up. You can find the fork: http://bitbucket.org/jas/drawterm Earlier problems with the build surrounded the PTHREAD define, or lack thereof, at certain points in the build process. In order to ensure that all files are built with PTHREAD defined, I've added PTHREAD and a version tag through Xcode's strange .xconfig system. The version string can be updated in the file iphone/config/drawtermVersion and will show up on the starting view--hopefully this will make certain things easier to track. Clone and build from iphone/drawterm.xcodeproj. I've been testing this on my iPad with success. Notes: - device orientation is still not complete Feel free to send me a message w/ your bitbucket account name if you'd like to write changes back. -jas
Re: [9fans] πp
2010/10/14 Latchesar Ionkov lu...@ionkov.net It can't be dealt with the current protocol. It doesn't guarantee that Topen will be executed once Twalk is done. So can get Rerrors even if Twalk succeeds. It can be dealt with if the scheduling of the pipeline is done properly. You just have to eliminate the dependencies. I can imagine having a few concurrent queues of requests in a client that contain items with dependencies, and running those queues in a pipelined way against a 9P server. 2010/10/13 Venkatesh Srinivas m...@acm.jhu.edu: 2) you can't pipeline requests if the result of one request depends on the result of a previous. for instance: walk to file, open it, read it, close it. if the first operation fails, then subsequent operations will be invalid. Given careful allocation of FIDs by a client, that can be dealt with - operations on an invalid FID just get RErrors. -- vs
Re: [9fans] πp
2010/10/15 Sape Mullender s...@plan9.bell-labs.com Are we talking about πP or 9P? It's about both. I was just curious about how 9P was deficient in terms of pipelining. It might not be optimal for all cases of pipelining, but the protocol seems to support it in certain cases just fine. ΠP deals with it in a superior way, and I need to finish reading the paper on it. ΠP doesn't have Twalk. It has open, which combines clone, walk, and open from 9P. Before you start jumping up and down and telling me that you can't open without revieing the qids from the walk (to check them for mount points), let me tell you that we are also tackling mount tables. Mount tables will no longer match qids but longest prefix path names. We know the semantics are different. But you have to look hard to find realistic situations where the difference matters. I intend to write a πP design document that explains the whole concept in excruciating detail. There's a lot more to it than just changing walk and open. I'm looking forward to it! Sape From: lu...@ionkov.net To: 9fans@9fans.net Reply-To: 9fans@9fans.net Date: Thu Oct 14 23:13:59 CES 2010 Subject: Re: [9fans] πp It can't be dealt with the current protocol. It doesn't guarantee that Topen will be executed once Twalk is done. So can get Rerrors even if Twalk succeeds. 2010/10/13 Venkatesh Srinivas m...@acm.jhu.edu: 2) you can't pipeline requests if the result of one request depends on the result of a previous. for instance: walk to file, open it, read it, close it. if the first operation fails, then subsequent operations will be invalid. Given careful allocation of FIDs by a client, that can be dealt with - operations on an invalid FID just get RErrors. -- vs
Re: [9fans] πp
2010/10/15 cinap_len...@gmx.de i wonder if making 9p work better over high latency connections is even the right answer to the problem. the real problem is that the data your program wants to work on in miles away from you and transfering it all will suck. would it not be cool to have a way to teleport/migrate your process to a cpu server close to the data? i know, this is a crazy blue sky idea that has lots of problems on its own... but it poped up again when i read the bring the computation to the data point from the ospray talk. I thought migrating processes was part of Osprey's story :-). -- cinap -- Forwarded message -- From: Francisco J Ballesteros n...@lsub.org To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 9fans@9fans.net Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:59:02 +0200 Subject: Re: [9fans] πp It's not just that you can stream requests or not. If you have caches in the path to the server, you'd like to batch together (or stream or whatever you'd like to call that) requests so that if a client is reading a file and a single rpc suffices, the cache, in the worst case, knows that it has to issue a single rpc to the server. Somehow, you need to group requests to retain the idea that a bunch of requests have some meaning as a whole. 2010/10/15 David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com: 2010/10/14 Latchesar Ionkov lu...@ionkov.net It can't be dealt with the current protocol. It doesn't guarantee that Topen will be executed once Twalk is done. So can get Rerrors even if Twalk succeeds. It can be dealt with if the scheduling of the pipeline is done properly. You just have to eliminate the dependencies. I can imagine having a few concurrent queues of requests in a client that contain items with dependencies, and running those queues in a pipelined way against a 9P server. 2010/10/13 Venkatesh Srinivas m...@acm.jhu.edu: 2) you can't pipeline requests if the result of one request depends on the result of a previous. for instance: walk to file, open it, read it, close it. if the first operation fails, then subsequent operations will be invalid. Given careful allocation of FIDs by a client, that can be dealt with - operations on an invalid FID just get RErrors. -- vs
Re: [9fans] πp
CPUs have big caches to move the code closer to the data (well a copy of the data anyway). Closeness in general is good, the question is what to move and how :-) Dave 2010/10/15 Julius Schmidt a...@phicode.de Perhaps I'm getting this all wrong, but to me this seems like an interesting idea, especially if you consider the impact of being near the files on some classically considered computationally stressy tasks like compiling (esp. with kencc). So moving the code near the data definitely seems worth trying. aiju On Fri, 15 Oct 2010, Latchesar Ionkov wrote: There are definitely cases when moving the code instead of the data makes sense. But that discussion is mostly unrelated to the one on how to make the file I/O work better over high-latency links. 2010/10/15 erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net: On Fri Oct 15 12:33:19 EDT 2010, lu...@ionkov.net wrote: What if the data your process needs is located on more than one server? Play ping-pong? one either plays ping pong with the process or data. one could imagine cases where the former case makes sense. - erik
Re: [9fans] some group photos
On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 12:49 AM, Axel Belinfante axel.belinfa...@cs.utwente.nl wrote: On Oct 14, 2010, at 9:32 , David du Colombier wrote: And many thanks to ericvh that allowed people like me, who could not afford the trip, to attend every talk through livestream.com. It was a lot of fun for us too. amen to that. Axel. Yes that was great work!
[9fans] wiki down?
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki I get Object not found
Re: [9fans] wiki down?
Ah... alright. On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Jacob Todd jaketodd...@gmail.com wrote: Iirc eric made something to report these things to the correct people. There's a group called 9nag on google groups that it uses.
Re: [9fans] πp
I guess I do not understand how 9p doesn't support pipelining. All requests are tagged and can be dealt with between client and server in any order right? On Wednesday, October 13, 2010, Eric Van Hensbergen eri...@gmail.com wrote: For folks interested in more info on the πp portion of Noah's Osprey talk, Anant's thesis is available online: http://proness.kix.in/misc/πp-v2.pdf -eric
Re: [9fans] πp
2010/10/13 roger peppe rogpe...@gmail.com 2010/10/13 David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com: I guess I do not understand how 9p doesn't support pipelining. All requests are tagged and can be dealt with between client and server in any order right? two issues (at least): 1) concurrently sent requests can be reordered (they're serviced in separate threads on the server) which means that, when reading from a streaming file which ignores file offsets, you don't necessarily get data back in the order that you asked for it. 2) you can't pipeline requests if the result of one request depends on the result of a previous. for instance: walk to file, open it, read it, close it. if the first operation fails, then subsequent operations will be invalid. I guess I'm trying to imagine how specifically you could pipeline, not the general ways in which pipelining will fail with 9P. On Wednesday, October 13, 2010, Eric Van Hensbergen eri...@gmail.com wrote: For folks interested in more info on the πp portion of Noah's Osprey talk, Anant's thesis is available online: http://proness.kix.in/misc/ πp-v2.pdf -eric
Re: [9fans] amd64 port
Plan 9'on ARM makes a lot of sense to me. I still think x86 is worthwhile though. On Wednesday, October 13, 2010, John Floren slawmas...@gmail.com wrote: I've consumed the Kool-Aid and now believe that ARM is the proper future for Plan 9. With Gumstix, you can get USB, DVI, audio, storage, ethernet, wifi, 3G, all in one tiny little box, for under $200, and with increasingly improving Plan 9 support (certainly better than amd64, which I used--it was primitive because nobody really used it) John On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 7:42 PM, Eric Van Hensbergen eri...@gmail.com wrote: ppc64 and amd64 support exists. the ppc64 port is partial and is available publically. It is my understanding that the amd64 is partial and available to those who ask. Things which are missing are devices and other bits to make it actually useful, but the core changes for 64-bit support are in place and there are 64 bit compilers. -eric On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Tharaneedharan Vilwanathan vdhar...@gmail.com wrote: hi all, i am just posting a question that has been in my mind for a while. to me, it looks like 64-bit computing has caught up very well. even smaller processors like atom supports 64-bit instruction set. on the contrary, while plan9 supported 32-bit processors ahead of other OSes, it is yet to support 64-bit. i am happy to see the plan9 port to many platforms (sheevaplug, beagleboard, etc) but i am also wondering if they are really as practical and widely usable as, say amd64 platform. (for e.g. i bought a sheevaplug long back, ran plan9 then kept aside waiting for more support). so i am wondering if we should make plan9/inferno support 64-bit at a higher priority. to me, it looks like 64-bit and VM support (vmware, parallels, etc) will be key for plan9/inferno to go a long way. am i right? please pass your opinion. thanks dharani
Re: [9fans] So, why Plan 9?
On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 1:51 AM, Max E maxxed...@comcast.net wrote: If I recall correctly, Ape is a complete POSIX implementation including Bourne shell, C libraries, etc. I think there are also ports of some of the GNU extended utilities as well. Not to mention you can get firefox to run under linuxemu if you stick with it :-). On Tue, 2010-10-12 at 08:33 +, Aleksandar Kuktin wrote: Is there already an implemented.. POSIX compatibility layer, library, or something? Hopefully, something that is very, very thin?? Maybe?
Re: [9fans] beagleboard
My latest solution was to run a Plan 9 VM and use it :-). But no :-( On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:43 PM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: /sys/src/9/beagle I think it works but have not run it for some time. On this note ... anybody figured out FTDI and OSX? I have no serial to my ARMs any more. ron
Re: [9fans] IWP9 Schedule?
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Eric Van Hensbergen eri...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 10:31 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: let me know when the live streaming starts. don't want to miss any of the joke made at my expense :P being as its live, it should start when the conference starts. Although knowing me, it'll probably take Ron's opening remarks for me to get the kinks worked out so you might miss those tasty tidbits. But that's what you get for not driving over the rockies Andrey. -eric Even though I'm a local, I'm pretty sick today, and will probably have to attend via streaming if I knew how to do that :-). I figure it's better than spreading disease across the international plan 9 community.
Re: [9fans] live streaming?
Yeah it looks great now. On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 1:24 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.comwrote: i found the video on demand working fine after people had dispersed for the lunch break. On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: unwatchable here too sadly, geoff's talk is fine up to the end of the introduction, then it stalls. perhaps their server will be in a better state tomorrow. -Steve
Re: [9fans] iwp9 registration
Gah! I totally forgot. What's the site again? I'm finding some lsub sites when I google, but I don't think it's up today. Dave On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 7:45 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: today is officially the last day for iwp9 registration. i'm going to extend that one week since i think many of us have forgotten about that deadline. you may still attend iwp9 if you are not registered, but please make life easy on yourself, and us and register. - erik
Re: [9fans] sheeva
On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 2:39 PM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 1:32 PM, fge...@gmail.com wrote: You are probably interested in plan9 related issues, but you might be interested in this as well: if you run cpu intensive stuff, the plug will get hot. My plug practically killed 1 sd card and almost fried another one as well. I have found several complaints on this issue. sounds like going external usb is better. ron There's more than one version of the plug, and I've heard keeping the guruplug at full tilt network wise will cause a heat issue if you have the dual Gig-E nics version. I don't do anything too intense on my guru plug at the moment, and it seems to run just fine. I've not done much with the USB on it, but I was pleasantly surprised that the JTAG serial doodad worked with Plan 9 to connect to the plug when I couldn't get Mac OS X to use it :-) Dave
Re: [9fans] cifsd
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Akshat aku...@mail.nanosouffle.net wrote: Just for the official record: cifsd works perfectly fine with Windows 7. Cinap's approach to the problem of packet-based protocols is elegant, efficient, and through the invent of printf-alike functions, fits well with the Plan 9 programming suite/style. Looks like a LinkedIn recommendation! I would use this but I've been happily windows free for years now. Windows 7 seems to be drawing people back in, but I'm not sure I want to make the leap yet. Depends if Apple turns Mac OS X into the iOS developer platform only or not I suppose. Dave Well done. ak On Sep 20, 2010, at 20:34, cinap_len...@gmx.de wrote: after doing some patching on aquarela, wrote a cifs/smb server from scratch and got it down to 3350 lines of code. it uses binary regular expressions to unpack and pack the various nested sub-structures in the packets. /n/sources/cinap_lenrek/cifsd.tgz http://9hal.ath.cx/usr/cinap_lenrek/cifsd.tgz features include: run from listen(8) as none, so more secure. uses syslog() for informational logging (auth/share accesses/errors/warnings). debug tracing can be done with a separate debug trace file. open/read/write/close/rename/delete files and directories. fixed auth so it doesnt fail half the time. the trick was to delay the auth failure to the TREE_CONNECT_ANDX, otherwise windows will try over and over again with wrong password and username combinations. moving files/directories works by returning a special error code to instruct the client to do a recursive copy. impements/pretends enougth IPC$/rap to get the local share listed. not implemented: oplocks wildcard matching (will do (again)) netbios nameservice named pipes/mailslots setting file attributes NT_TRANSACT / acls anything i'v not seen while testing with w2k and wxp i'm interested in feedback. expecially tests with vista or w7. -- cinap
Re: [9fans] Buying a Guru Plug. Do I want/need the JTAG module too?
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 3:05 AM, Gorka Guardiola pau...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Paul Lalonde paul.a.lalo...@gmail.com wrote: I'd like to run it as a household control server, notwithstanding various teething pains/devices. If I fail too badly, I can probably coerce Linux to do what I need. Paul -- Is this hardware you are talking about?. In the Sheeva you could get a JTag connection via the USB, without any extra hardware... You need the mini usb JTAG/Serial on the Guruplug. I'm pretty sure you can use it for other JTAGing needs on other devices too, but i've never tried. Dave -- - curiosity sKilled the cat
Re: [9fans] anonymous pro -- a programming font
Been using this with all my Terminals on Mac OS X for the last week. It's nice :-) On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:56 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.comwrote: seems to fit nicely with acme and rio. looks better antialiased than not. let me know if you want it in size 14, of use ttf2subf yourselves if you like it: http://www.ms-studio.com/FontSales/anonymouspro.html not a terribly good unicode coverage.
Re: [9fans] plan 9 on the guruplug
The part that confuses me right now is the following set of comments in the plug configuration file with respect to flash and nvram. Do I need nvram or not? nvram appears to be where my boot process dies. bootdir boot$CONF.out boot /arm/bin/ip/ipconfig /arm/bin/auth/factotum # /arm/bin/paqfs /arm/bin/usb/usbd # nvram not needed any longer, it's in flash nvram link ether1116 ethermii archkw ethermedium # no flash yet for guruplug flashkw ecc loopbackmedium netdevmedium usbehci # sheeva plug, openrd-client, guruplug and others # based on marvell's kirkwood soc dev root cons env pipe proc mnt srv dup rtc arch ssl tls cap kprof aoe sd flash # pnp pci ether netif ip arp chandial ip ipv6 ipaux iproute netlog nullmedium pktmedium ptclbsum inferno ## draw screen vga vgax ## mouse mouse ## vga # kbmap ## kbin uart usb On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:52 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: plug included nvram, so I'm not sure what's going on. Still trying to figure out if I should just be able to mount this thing from another machine to test. On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:48 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I just built the CONF=plug Let me see what that includes. Maybe my sources are just really old. Dave On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:46 PM, Skip Tavakkolian 9...@9netics.comwrote: do you compile in an nvram (that includes the correct rights?) On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 7:01 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Just got one of these today, and I suspect my problem has nothing to do with the guruplug and everything to do with the fact that I've never set up any PXE bootable systems before to mount a Plan 9 CPUAUTHFS service. I'm getting ktrace /kernel/path 0x60806f34 0x6095cf30 0x6095cf6d # pc, sp, linkion refused I'm thinking that I don't have / either exported in a way I know how to use it remotely or that I have another fundamental configuration issue. I'm wondering if there's a way to use either Inferno or the same plan 9 installation to test whatever needs testing to validate that I'll be able to remotely boot my guruplug. once you've validated that you have a reasonable ipnet in /lib/ndb/local covering your network (that's been my problem many times; verify with ndb/ipquery especially that you have a fs= entry), and you've tried adding -Dd to bootargs (adding verbosity to ip/ipconfig), i usually starting hacking in debug messages to /sys/src/9/boot, to taste, until i can reduce things down to a nice consummé. if you're loading the kernel, you've gotten pretty far, so it sounds like dhcp/tftpd themselves are properly configured. Yes, the kernel loads, and prompts me for an IP for a filesystem. I enter one, and it goes through authid, authdom, secstore and password prompts, then it dumps me off into kdumpland ktrace /kernel/path 0x60806f34 0x6095cf30 0x6095cf6d # pc, sp, linkion refused It was pretty easy to get it this far. I'm just wondering if I have my filesystem server set up the way I originally thought, and if there is a way to do some basic test of that. Example, can I attach an Inferno OS to my Plan 9 to validate if other Plan 9 instances *should* work. Dave bon appitit. - julia child
Re: [9fans] plan 9 on the guruplug
I found something on a french Plan 9 translation site about dd'ing my nvram from my PC to a file in /sys/src/9/kw then building. This seems to have gotten me past the point where it crashes because it can't write to nvram, but it crashes all the same anyway :-) Marvell setenv bootcmd 'dhcp 0x80; tftp 0x1000 /cfg/pxe/f0ad4eff148b; go 0x80' Marvell boot BOOTP broadcast 1 DHCP client bound to address 192.168.1.77 Using egiga0 device TFTP from server 192.168.1.250; our IP address is 192.168.1.77 Filename '/arm/9plug'. Load address: 0x80 Loading: # ## done Bytes transferred = 1331184 (144ff0 hex) Using egiga0 device TFTP from server 192.168.1.250; our IP address is 192.168.1.77 Filename '/cfg/pxe/f0ad4eff148b'. Load address: 0x1000 Loading: # done Bytes transferred = 121 (79 hex) ## Starting application at 0x0080 ... Plan 9 from Bell Labs l1 D: 16384 bytes, 4 ways 128 sets 32 bytes/line; write-through only l1 I: 16384 bytes, 4 ways 128 sets 32 bytes/line; write-back type `reg 7 ops, format C' (016) possible l2 cache: 256K or 512K: 4 ways, 32-byte lines, write-back, sdram only cpu0: 1200MHz ARM Marvell 88F6281 A1; arm926ej-s arch v5te rev 2.1 part 131 #F0: kwnand: Samsung 2Gb 536,870,912 bytes pagesize 2048 erasesize 131,072 spares per page 64 #F0: nand addr 0xd800 len 536870912 width 1 interleave 0 #l0: 88e1116: 100Mbps port 0xf1072000 irq 11: f0ad4eff148b #l1: 88e1116: 100Mbps port 0xf1076000 irq 15: f0ad4eff148c #u/usb/ep1.0: ehci: port 0XF1050100 irq 19 504M memory: 52M kernel data, 452M user, 1959M swap usb/hub... filesystem IP address[no default]: 192.168.1.250 authentication server IP address[no default]: 192.168.1.250 bootpanic: boot process died: unknown ktrace /kernel/path 0x60806f14 0x6099ff50 0x6099ff8d # pc, sp, linkion refused panic: boot process died: unknown cpu0: exiting reset! On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:43 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: The part that confuses me right now is the following set of comments in the plug configuration file with respect to flash and nvram. Do I need nvram or not? nvram appears to be where my boot process dies. bootdir boot$CONF.out boot /arm/bin/ip/ipconfig /arm/bin/auth/factotum # /arm/bin/paqfs /arm/bin/usb/usbd # nvram not needed any longer, it's in flash nvram link ether1116 ethermii archkw ethermedium # no flash yet for guruplug flashkw ecc loopbackmedium netdevmedium usbehci # sheeva plug, openrd-client, guruplug and others # based on marvell's kirkwood soc dev root cons env pipe proc mnt srv dup rtc arch ssl tls cap kprof aoe sd flash # pnp pci ether netif ip arp chandial ip ipv6 ipaux iproute netlog nullmedium pktmedium ptclbsum inferno ## draw screen vga vgax ## mouse mouse ## vga # kbmap ## kbin uart usb On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:52 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: plug included nvram, so I'm not sure what's going on. Still trying to figure out if I should just be able to mount this thing from another machine to test. On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:48 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.comwrote: I just built the CONF=plug Let me see what that includes. Maybe my sources are just really old. Dave On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:46 PM, Skip Tavakkolian 9...@9netics.comwrote: do you compile in an nvram (that includes the correct rights?) On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 7:01 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: Just got one of these today, and I suspect my problem has nothing to do with the guruplug and everything to do with the fact that I've never set up any PXE bootable systems before to mount a Plan 9 CPUAUTHFS service. I'm getting ktrace /kernel/path 0x60806f34 0x6095cf30 0x6095cf6d # pc, sp, linkion refused I'm thinking that I don't have / either exported in a way I know how to use it remotely or that I have another fundamental configuration issue. I'm wondering if there's a way to use either Inferno or the same plan 9 installation to test whatever needs testing to validate that I'll be able to remotely boot my guruplug. once you've validated that you have a reasonable ipnet in /lib/ndb/local covering your network (that's been my problem many times; verify with ndb/ipquery especially that you have a fs= entry), and you've tried adding -Dd to bootargs (adding verbosity to ip/ipconfig), i usually starting hacking in debug messages to /sys/src/9/boot, to taste, until i can reduce things down to a nice consummé. if you're loading the kernel, you've gotten pretty far, so it sounds like dhcp/tftpd themselves are properly configured. Yes, the kernel loads, and prompts me for an IP for a filesystem. I enter one, and it goes through authid, authdom, secstore and password prompts, then it dumps me off into kdumpland ktrace /kernel
Re: [9fans] plan 9 on the guruplug
Ok, now I can't remember what I just did, but it's working. On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:59 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I found something on a french Plan 9 translation site about dd'ing my nvram from my PC to a file in /sys/src/9/kw then building. This seems to have gotten me past the point where it crashes because it can't write to nvram, but it crashes all the same anyway :-) Marvell setenv bootcmd 'dhcp 0x80; tftp 0x1000 /cfg/pxe/f0ad4eff148b; go 0x80' Marvell boot BOOTP broadcast 1 DHCP client bound to address 192.168.1.77 Using egiga0 device TFTP from server 192.168.1.250; our IP address is 192.168.1.77 Filename '/arm/9plug'. Load address: 0x80 Loading: # ## done Bytes transferred = 1331184 (144ff0 hex) Using egiga0 device TFTP from server 192.168.1.250; our IP address is 192.168.1.77 Filename '/cfg/pxe/f0ad4eff148b'. Load address: 0x1000 Loading: # done Bytes transferred = 121 (79 hex) ## Starting application at 0x0080 ... Plan 9 from Bell Labs l1 D: 16384 bytes, 4 ways 128 sets 32 bytes/line; write-through only l1 I: 16384 bytes, 4 ways 128 sets 32 bytes/line; write-back type `reg 7 ops, format C' (016) possible l2 cache: 256K or 512K: 4 ways, 32-byte lines, write-back, sdram only cpu0: 1200MHz ARM Marvell 88F6281 A1; arm926ej-s arch v5te rev 2.1 part 131 #F0: kwnand: Samsung 2Gb 536,870,912 bytes pagesize 2048 erasesize 131,072 spares per page 64 #F0: nand addr 0xd800 len 536870912 width 1 interleave 0 #l0: 88e1116: 100Mbps port 0xf1072000 irq 11: f0ad4eff148b #l1: 88e1116: 100Mbps port 0xf1076000 irq 15: f0ad4eff148c #u/usb/ep1.0: ehci: port 0XF1050100 irq 19 504M memory: 52M kernel data, 452M user, 1959M swap usb/hub... filesystem IP address[no default]: 192.168.1.250 authentication server IP address[no default]: 192.168.1.250 bootpanic: boot process died: unknown ktrace /kernel/path 0x60806f14 0x6099ff50 0x6099ff8d # pc, sp, linkion refused panic: boot process died: unknown cpu0: exiting reset! On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:43 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.comwrote: The part that confuses me right now is the following set of comments in the plug configuration file with respect to flash and nvram. Do I need nvram or not? nvram appears to be where my boot process dies. bootdir boot$CONF.out boot /arm/bin/ip/ipconfig /arm/bin/auth/factotum # /arm/bin/paqfs /arm/bin/usb/usbd # nvram not needed any longer, it's in flash nvram link ether1116 ethermii archkw ethermedium # no flash yet for guruplug flashkw ecc loopbackmedium netdevmedium usbehci # sheeva plug, openrd-client, guruplug and others # based on marvell's kirkwood soc dev root cons env pipe proc mnt srv dup rtc arch ssl tls cap kprof aoe sd flash # pnp pci ether netif ip arp chandial ip ipv6 ipaux iproute netlog nullmedium pktmedium ptclbsum inferno ## draw screen vga vgax ## mouse mouse ## vga # kbmap ## kbin uart usb On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:52 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.comwrote: plug included nvram, so I'm not sure what's going on. Still trying to figure out if I should just be able to mount this thing from another machine to test. On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:48 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.comwrote: I just built the CONF=plug Let me see what that includes. Maybe my sources are just really old. Dave On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:46 PM, Skip Tavakkolian 9...@9netics.comwrote: do you compile in an nvram (that includes the correct rights?) On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 7:01 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: Just got one of these today, and I suspect my problem has nothing to do with the guruplug and everything to do with the fact that I've never set up any PXE bootable systems before to mount a Plan 9 CPUAUTHFS service. I'm getting ktrace /kernel/path 0x60806f34 0x6095cf30 0x6095cf6d # pc, sp, linkion refused I'm thinking that I don't have / either exported in a way I know how to use it remotely or that I have another fundamental configuration issue. I'm wondering if there's a way to use either Inferno or the same plan 9 installation to test whatever needs testing to validate that I'll be able to remotely boot my guruplug. once you've validated that you have a reasonable ipnet in /lib/ndb/local covering your network (that's been my problem many times; verify with ndb/ipquery especially that you have a fs= entry), and you've tried adding -Dd to bootargs (adding verbosity to ip/ipconfig), i usually starting hacking in debug messages to /sys/src/9/boot, to taste, until i can reduce things down to a nice consummé. if you're loading the kernel, you've gotten pretty far, so it sounds like dhcp/tftpd themselves are properly configured. Yes, the kernel loads
Re: [9fans] plan 9 on the guruplug
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 6:07 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: On Tue Aug 31 03:27:52 EDT 2010, leim...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, now I can't remember what I just did, but it's working. On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:59 PM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I found something on a french Plan 9 translation site about dd'ing my nvram from my PC to a file in /sys/src/9/kw then building. This seems to have gotten me past the point where it crashes because it can't write to nvram, but it crashes all the same anyway :-) is there any chance that you either haven't resync'd /sys/src/libauthsrv/readnvram.c or that you haven't rebuilt your kernel or other auth-related stuff since this change? Jul 23 18:49:34 EDT 2010 /n/sourcesdump/2010/0726/plan9/sys/src/libauthsrv/readnvram.c 10695 [geoff] 47a48 power, #F/flash/flash, 0x44, sizeof(Nvrsafe), 50a52 arm, #F/flash/flash, 0x10, sizeof(Nvrsafe), - erik I decided to blow everything away last night and start over, including the Plan 9 CPU server I am pxe booting from. The plan 9 installation I worked from was from the ISO available last night. Looking over my notes it appears the only thing I had to do to prevent the crash was enable my fossil FS's listening capabilities. Now the guruplug gets a kernel and an FS every time. I'm probably going to plan 9 wikify my notes either tonight or tomorrow. Dave
Re: [9fans] how to lock cpu console
In short. Physical access trumps all other locking mechanisms anyway. CPU servers were not meant to be workstations, and the lack of a screen lock shows that. But then workstations are easily stolen. 2 were taken from the building where I work in the last weeks at a law firm office (we share our building IANAL), and no amount of screen locks saved those. However I still screensaver lock my desktop when I leave for the weekend. Not that it'd matter, if someone really wanted my data they could get it. Dave On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 8:04 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: There is also, somewhere, a screen locker program that (I think) Rob wrote a few years back; I compiled it and used it successfully last year, and you could certainly stick that in your cpustart to automatically lock the screen. However, for the life of me I can't find the code right now, so maybe somebody else can point to it. i didn't suggest lock for cpu servers since it requires rio. seems silly to run rio on the console just to lock it. and unfortunately, i think this method would also interfere with the serial console. and it wouldn't be immune to a three-fingered salute, ^P, ^T^Tr, and other hilarity. since there are no interrupts on the console, it would seem trivial to me to, ahem, lock down the console with a 10 line program. you'd be left with defending against ^T^Tr, ^P, etc. but then again, the power button or network cable is sooo convienent. heck, just take the machine home. :-P. - erik
[9fans] LLVM for plan 9?
I've seen a little bit of information about trying to go to LLVM for Inferno, and getting LLVM on Plan 9 natively (feasibility anyway), and I was wondering if there's any official projects chasing this in earnest? Now that I've got an ARM and an x86 plan 9 instance up, I might have some time, but I can tell you compilers are definitely not my specialty :-). Dave
Re: [9fans] plan 9 on the guruplug
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:19 AM, David du Colombier 0in...@gmail.comwrote: Looking over my notes it appears the only thing I had to do to prevent the crash was enable my fossil FS's listening capabilities. Now the guruplug gets a kernel and an FS every time. Yes, if you don't make fossil listening on port 564/tcp, this error appear. It is a common oversight, when you are not accustomed to enable unencrypted connection to 9P. That's why I kept asking over and over again if there was a good way for me to test that I set my CPUFSAUTH server up properly before I started asking questions about the Sheevaplug port. I'm probably going to plan 9 wikify my notes either tonight or tomorrow. I am probably the author of the documentation you find on some french Plan 9 website. I didn't think it was worth writing it on the Plan 9 wiki at the time, but I encourage you to do it now as it will be obviously helpful to others. Yes it was very helpful to me to see a boiled down list of steps that make this work. The only difference I think I have from your notes is my TFTP U-Boot string is a lot shorter and seems to work ok. I think the Sheeva/Guru platform is very interesting to work with. It'd be even more so if anyone ever makes U-SNAP capable appliances. Also their is an announced DisplayPlug that comes with either HDMI or a touchscreen interface that could make for a nice Plan 9 terminal for some programs potentially. I could see having these all over my house at some point. Dave -- David du Colombier
