Re: [9fans] native install
Someone should put this whole thread on the wiki
Re: [9fans] more little hardware
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 10:36 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 2:24 AM, Gabriel Díaz gd...@rejaa.com wrote: hello How do I get my employer to need plan9? Given the experiences posted by some of the plan9 inventors in other thread, this seems to be an almost impossible task, unless you make your own business or change you're employer for someone which already uses plan9. I guess. It is a bit discouraging for a fan who has the hope to get his employer need plan9 i think. I already gave up on this. I think size of company matters too. We're a really small group where I work, and getting things done correctly is actually valued a bit more than the means by which it gets done. It's that mentality that let me throw off the shackles of Java for Erlang and Haskell for a lot of the code I'm responsible for. You are a lucky man. I might even try to push my luck soon and get permission to rewrite a small but really important chunk of code in Go if i can prove to myself, and then to others, that it's a good idea :-) Dave slds. gabi - Original Message From: Steve Simon st...@quintile.net To: 9fans@9fans.net Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:04:56 AM Subject: Re: [9fans] more little hardware Honestly, I think it would loads of fun to do, but I probably wouldn't use it myself once done, I don't have the free time to do it, and I don't know of a way to do it for work... The story of my (plan9) life... I should add that there is also lots of stuff I _would_ use that I don't have time to write. my big question is How do I get my employer to need plan9? -Steve
[9fans] Collaborative Sam?
How hard would it be to stick a program between a single sam -R and several samterms? I imagine such a program would have to interpret the sam protocol and handle merges and simultaneous updates, but since sam essentially treats files operations as database transactions, it seems like sam's protocol could be very helpful. The possibilities for what such an intermediary program could do are probably limitless, but I was thinking it could make collaborative editing via sam a possibility. I don't know enough about sam's protocol to know if such an idea would work.
Re: [9fans] Collaborative Sam?
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:34 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know enough about sam's innards to be able to say whether or not this could work, but I do like the idea. I think it's doable because of the way sam's remote mode works -- it appears to just use pipes. Therefore, I thought that maybe a multiplexer could sit between a single sam and several samterms, organizing the protocol messages from all the different samterms and presenting something sane to the single sam -R instance. It would have to be convincing to that individual sam, appearing to be a single `normal' samterm. I think the fact that sam uses a database-like protocol would make that possible; all the results of the multiplexer's merging and so forth would be presented to the sam -R instance as if they were coming in as protocol messages from a single samterm. On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:05 AM, Jorden Mauro jrm8...@gmail.com wrote: How hard would it be to stick a program between a single sam -R and several samterms? I imagine such a program would have to interpret the sam protocol and handle merges and simultaneous updates, but since sam essentially treats files operations as database transactions, it seems like sam's protocol could be very helpful. The possibilities for what such an intermediary program could do are probably limitless, but I was thinking it could make collaborative editing via sam a possibility. I don't know enough about sam's protocol to know if such an idea would work.
Re: [9fans] Collaborative Sam?
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Chad Brown yand...@mit.edu wrote: Have you read ``The Text Editor Sam'', by Rob Pike? (http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/sam/) A quick re-skim (especially around page 22) or so suggests that you'd want to look at the code for sam -r, and that you'll want to dig into the Rasp data structure, but (contrary to my memory), it might be possible without breaking the existing protocol. Good luck! *Chad Yes this is a start, but I feel a bit out of my league still after reading the paper and some of the code a few times; I just learned enough about it to think it's possible.
Re: [9fans] Collaborative Sam?
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:30 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 8:14 AM, Jorden Mauro jrm8...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:34 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know enough about sam's innards to be able to say whether or not this could work, but I do like the idea. I think it's doable because of the way sam's remote mode works -- it appears to just use pipes. Therefore, I thought that maybe a multiplexer could sit between a single sam and several samterms, organizing the protocol messages from all the different samterms and presenting something sane to the single sam -R instance. It would have to be convincing to that individual sam, appearing to be a single `normal' samterm. I think the fact that sam uses a database-like protocol would make that possible; all the results of the multiplexer's merging and so forth would be presented to the sam -R instance as if they were coming in as protocol messages from a single samterm. Well I think there'd have to be a concept of a session in there somewhere, so that edits by one person could be differentiated from edits by another. Also how atomic are the messages in the protocol and can they be committed transactionally to the buffer? If so I think there might be something doable here. I would think that the multiplexer would handle all of this. It could just check what time the samterms' messages come to it, resolve them, and output a single stream of sam protocol messages to the single sam -R on the server side. Of course, there's more to this `handling' than there seems at first glance, but as long as the multiplexer can handle all the client samterms' messages, merge everything properly, and once it makes sense of all the requests, emit a single stream of sane samterm messages to the sam -R that it talks to on the server-side, I think it would work. The only modification to sam would be adding the option to set up the pipes on both ends and fork the multiplexer -- which would read pretty much the same as the connectto() functionn /sys/src/cmd/sam/io.c . It'd be cool to use with Inferno for example, where you can run editing sessions from anyone's PC in a company setting. Isn't that what the collaborative whiteboard app in Inferno is/was for? I've never tried running it. Dave On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:05 AM, Jorden Mauro jrm8...@gmail.com wrote: How hard would it be to stick a program between a single sam -R and several samterms? I imagine such a program would have to interpret the sam protocol and handle merges and simultaneous updates, but since sam essentially treats files operations as database transactions, it seems like sam's protocol could be very helpful. The possibilities for what such an intermediary program could do are probably limitless, but I was thinking it could make collaborative editing via sam a possibility. I don't know enough about sam's protocol to know if such an idea would work.
Re: [9fans] Collaborative Sam?
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Skip Tavakkolian 9...@9netics.com wrote: if you carry the idea through, i think you'll reinvent 9p and mount :) Of course, the idea could be done as a 9p file server. However, I think the fact that sam already uses a protocol with database-like semantics would greatly reduce the work needed. I also don't think that such a scheme would allow for real-time update in samterm (though of course, I don't know if my original idea would, either!) How hard would it be to stick a program between a single sam -R and several samterms? I imagine such a program would have to interpret the sam protocol and handle merges and simultaneous updates, but since sam essentially treats files operations as database transactions, it seems like sam's protocol could be very helpful. The possibilities for what such an intermediary program could do are probably limitless, but I was thinking it could make collaborative editing via sam a possibility. I don't know enough about sam's protocol to know if such an idea would work.
Re: [9fans] Check out my photos on Facebook
On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 2:58 PM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: One moment of inattention turns into mailing list infamy. So there is nothing wrong with my instincts that say that I should stay far away from facebook? ++L You are missing nothing worthwhile.
Re: [9fans] Independent study topic
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Justin Jackson jjackson...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, I've been lurking for the past few months and I've really enjoyed reading the messages from this list. I'm looking for some ideas or advice---here's the story: I'm pursuing a Master's degree in computer science at a small school with limited options for classes. I'm enrolled in a graduate-level course in distributed systems, but the material isn't on my level. The professor understands my predicament and might allow me to do an independent study on the subject, but I would need something specific to work on. I would love to do something with Plan 9...I'm just not sure what. Compare and contrast it with other systems? Find a novel use for 9P? Is there anyone at your university doing a big (computationally) project? Like a large artificial neural network, or something that could be easily decomposed or pipelined? If so, you might be able to get some interest in finding a way to make (cheap) distributed computing available to those people right at home who need it. Maybe you could revive old hardware and save the department money. I know that doesn't sound groundbreaking at all, but it could go over well for you and introduce you to some interesting problems. I'm not very good at coming up with creative topics, so any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. -Justin P.S. In what seems to be a grave injustice, the textbook only mentions Plan 9 on one page, and only points out the per-process namespaces and the ability to merge directories with bind. Absolutely nothing on 9P. Argh! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [9fans] Just one piece o' help.
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: I suggest you install Fede's contrib package (a sort of package managment system), 9fs sources /n/sources/contrib/fgb/root/rc/bin/contrib/install fgb/contrib now you can list packages and install them - see man contrib some stuff is not in contrib packages, it is too small or the author does not line contrib. These are usually downloaded as a tar file and can be built using mk(1) (the plan9 equivilent of make) - much as packages are installed with slackware (I beleive). -Steve Scripts can also just be cp'd straight to $home/bin
Re: [9fans] Just one piece o' help.
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:17 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: I suggest you install Fede's contrib package (a sort of package managment system), 9fs sources /n/sources/contrib/fgb/root/rc/bin/contrib/install fgb/contrib now you can list packages and install them - see man contrib some stuff is not in contrib packages, it is too small or the author does not line contrib. These are usually downloaded as a tar file and can be built using mk(1) (the plan9 equivilent of make) - much as packages are installed with slackware (I beleive). -Steve Scripts can also just be cp'd straight to $home/bin steve's suggestion has the advantage that contrib itself can be managed with contrib. - erik Yes, my suggestion is only for scripts which can't be installed with contrib.
Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Patrick Kelly kameo76...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 5, 2010, at 6:52 AM, Enrico Weigelt weig...@metux.de wrote: * Jorden Mauro jrm8...@gmail.com wrote: The coffee pot runs windows and there is a virus that causes Coffee Denial of Service on it. That, of course, would be the very most worstcase that can ever happen ;-) I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to put an 80x86 in a coffee machine. Yes you could run WinCE, but without the 80x86 your not going to suffer from the hoards of virus's. You have too much faith in humanity. It runs on a Via x86 clone: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2009/jan09/01-09cesfugoo.mspx The article doesn't mention which flavor of Windows, but I don't think WinCE runs on x86, does it? I'd like to see the day someone gets Linux or NetBSD booting on a coffee machine. Seconded. cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ phone: +49 36207 519931 email: weig...@metux.de mobile: +49 174 7066481 icq: 210169427 skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme --
Re: [9fans] Input/output
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote: Why not just highlight the section you want to edit and then type commands into the ~~sam~~ window? You can't select more than a screenful with the mouse, and sometimes it easier to use the mouse for large selections than it is to write an x/.../ expression.
Re: [9fans] Input/output
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:53 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: i general that's true, but double clicking at the start of a c block (or any other set of matching delimiters) is a notable exception. Righto, forgot that escape hatch. which brings us around to acme. i was a devoted sam user for many years until the day i switched back to sam after a few days' trying acme. the mouseing in sam just felt clunky after that. The chording patch helps.
Re: [9fans] grëp (rhymes with creep) and cptmp
On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 10:32 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@coraid.com wrote: size isn't the real issue. the real issue is determining what the ranges are for other than the base character. if a maps to [aa'...] and z maps to [zz'...] it's not clear that [a'-z'] is a sensible set. for example what does [e-f] map to? [e-f], clearly but [ë-what?] ``unfold turns a character, say ë into the set of characters that can be folded to the same base character. so ; unfold ë [eèéêëēĕėęěȅȇȩḕḗḙḛḝẹẻẽếềểễệ]'' To me, that sounds like [e-f] should be [eèéêëēĕėęěȅȇȩḕḗḙḛḝẹẻẽếềểễệfƒ] iff e unfolds to the same set as ë. If e only unfolds to [e], then [e-f] would unfold to [ef]. Does that sound sane?
Re: [9fans] 9p resource sharing [was: Scanners]
On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: On 28 Nov 2009, at 2:28 pm, hiro wrote: It's also very easy to run my toaster diskless. Does this say anything about it's elegance or simplicity? I don't remember what my toaster has to do with 9p, but nevermind. And somebody always mentions toasters! Or coffee machines... :D Actually, yes it does say a lot about a toaster's elegant simplicity: a toaster only has parts to do the job intended. At a minimum a switched heater, a sprung sliding bread carrier which also switches the heater, and a thermally-releasing latch for the slider. I have seen a toaster without even that much complexity; it had glass sides so you could see when your toast was done how you like it. There is a toaster that burns a picture of a raincloud, sun, snowflake, etc. depending on the morning's forecast. There is also a coffee pot you can control via ethernet. The coffee pot runs windows and there is a virus that causes Coffee Denial of Service on it. Actually there is a link here. Things to share are increasingly bloated, and applications strangely seem to need access to every feature of the shared entity. 9p could perhaps help by presenting a device model with files for different capabilities, or something like that, but it is only half a solution. OTOH perhaps the need to access device features is not really strange. Requiring a whole postscript interpreter on your printer could be seen as just as strange, it was certainly very expensive to do a few years ago. On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: On 26 Nov 2009, at 8:53 pm, ron minnich wrote: On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 12:36 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: it is pretty hard to run windows, osx or linux without a hard drive. linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more ... not sure of the others. It's certainly possible to run OS X diskless, and knowing Apple it'll take less setting up than Linux. ;)
Re: [9fans] Scanners
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:08 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Has anyone given thought/attempted to getting newer scanners to work on Plan 9? Perhaps the SANE library could be used as a base for something saner (if you'll forgive the pun). i thought that was irony. :-) - erik Here's your irony: P9 needs more APIs with TLAs and FLAs to make it more marketable.
Re: [9fans] Scanners
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Andreas Zell z...@imageaccess.de wrote: On 25 Nov., 13:34, tyap...@gmail.com (Peter A. Cejchan) wrote: On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Peter A. Cejchan tyap...@gmail.com wrote: if i understand it right, your scanner is NOT connected directly to a plan9 native box... ++pac this is from your web: Requirement - Software: Java Sun Microsystems; Operating System Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista i got rid from those fsck-ing windoze os several yrs ago, now i want to free last of my boxes still running linux...uggh ++pac The scanner ist connect via 1G ethernet. On the Touchscreen is an Option Scan to network. The scanner scans direct to a cifs share (aquarella on plan9). No need for spezial software except a Cifs Server. The scanner use smbclient. AZ. Not a fun solution if you've already bought a scanner...
[9fans] Scanners
I could only find this thread, which seems a little outdated in this age of USB scanners: http://marc.info/?l=9fansm=111558813208847w=2 Has anyone given thought/attempted to getting newer scanners to work on Plan 9? Perhaps the SANE library could be used as a base for something saner (if you'll forgive the pun).
[9fans] Plan 9 doesn't boot on a (fairly new) computer
Here's the hardware: AMD Athlon II X2 245 (64-bit dual core) Gigabyte GA-MA785GM-US2H motherboard One 1.5Tb SATA hard drive, old IDE cdrom The Plan 9 and 9atom liveCDs have the same problem: when the `root is from' prompt appears, nothing happens and the keyboard does not work. The keyboard is not usb and no usb devices are plugged in. Both liveCDs apparently have nomp set, as only one cpu is detected. I had to change the `boot from' option on the vanilla Plan 9 CD, because my motherboard/BIOS does not let me have IDE drives as secondary master. 9atom seemed to handle this better, but both get stuck at the `root is from' prompt. Someone suggested Plan9 may not like the southbridge on this motherboard (an AMD SB710). Any ideas? Thanks, Jorden
Re: [9fans] hoc's behaviour, unary operators
Look under the production for expr in /sys/src/cmd/hoc/hoc.y Looks like the unary plus problem would be a one-line fix. The -- with no space may be harder to fix. On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Rudolf Sykora rudolf.syk...@gmail.com wrote: PS.: While 'bc' is not any better in this, 'maxima' gets it wright. (Both in linux.)
