Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
- is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it? Cfront is available but you will be shocked if you expect it to replace gcc - it is very old now, and though it could be improved if somone was willing to do the work it would require quite some dedication. Getting g++ to work would be the best way to get a modern C++ compiler on plan9 for free. If you have money the Comeau computing supply both a portable compiler and a GCC compliant C++ to C translator (both based on the EDG front-end), however there is no plan9 port, yet. http://www.comeaucomputing.com/ http://www.edg.com/ -Steve
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
Autotools is in the GCC package. However, there is a nice and clean way to port alien software using APE: page /sys/doc/ape.ps On Feb 2, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote: Hello everyone :) I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about it :) And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system (autoconf, automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some alternative? :) I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't find any documentation about how i should do this in plan9 style ) PS: sorry for my horrible English :) 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work, though. On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote: Another question from newbie : I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language for Plan9; I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story: - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it? - has it been 'banned' from Plan9? - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the messages I saw)... Thank for your attention. Michael.
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
Thanks for a fast reply ) I'll check out documents about APE, if my questions will be actual after that, i will post thous here. 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Autotools is in the GCC package. However, there is a nice and clean way to port alien software using APE: page /sys/doc/ape.ps On Feb 2, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote: Hello everyone :) I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about it :) And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system (autoconf, automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some alternative? :) I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't find any documentation about how i should do this in plan9 style ) PS: sorry for my horrible English :) 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work, though. On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote: Another question from newbie : I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language for Plan9; I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story: - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it? - has it been 'banned' from Plan9? - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the messages I saw)... Thank for your attention. Michael.
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
Thanks, it is great news. Actually i have been shocked, may first point of view was that it is too much for me, try to port some software without gnu autotools support. But if autotools could fly under Plan9 it is not so bad as i think :)) I have forgot, another one question: what about Java under Plan9? Is it possible to have JVM? Or no suitable package available? )) 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If the archive actually has a configure script, the best way to start configuring is with: % ape/psh # ./configure --prefix=$home --build=i386 --bindir=$home/bin/ $objtype --lib=$home/lib On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote: Thanks for a fast reply ) I'll check out documents about APE, if my questions will be actual after that, i will post thous here. 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Autotools is in the GCC package. However, there is a nice and clean way to port alien software using APE: page /sys/doc/ape.ps On Feb 2, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote: Hello everyone :) I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about it :) And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system (autoconf, automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some alternative? :) I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't find any documentation about how i should do this in plan9 style ) PS: sorry for my horrible English :) 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work, though. On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote: Another question from newbie : I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language for Plan9; I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story: - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it? - has it been 'banned' from Plan9? - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the messages I saw)... Thank for your attention. Michael.
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
But if autotools could fly under Plan9 it is not so bad as i think :)) autotools is every bit as bad as one could think.
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
An implementation of Kaffe, a FOSS Java virtual machine, is available for Plan 9. I have never gotten it to work. http://plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp/netlib/kaffe/ On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote: Thanks, it is great news. Actually i have been shocked, may first point of view was that it is too much for me, try to port some software without gnu autotools support. But if autotools could fly under Plan9 it is not so bad as i think :)) I have forgot, another one question: what about Java under Plan9? Is it possible to have JVM? Or no suitable package available? )) 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If the archive actually has a configure script, the best way to start configuring is with: % ape/psh # ./configure --prefix=$home --build=i386 --bindir=$home/bin/ $objtype --lib=$home/lib On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote: Thanks for a fast reply ) I'll check out documents about APE, if my questions will be actual after that, i will post thous here. 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Autotools is in the GCC package. However, there is a nice and clean way to port alien software using APE: page /sys/doc/ape.ps On Feb 2, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote: Hello everyone :) I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about it :) And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system (autoconf, automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some alternative? :) I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't find any documentation about how i should do this in plan9 style ) PS: sorry for my horrible English :) 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work, though. On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote: Another question from newbie : I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language for Plan9; I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story: - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it? - has it been 'banned' from Plan9? - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the messages I saw)... Thank for your attention. Michael.
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
Thanks! )) 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: An implementation of Kaffe, a FOSS Java virtual machine, is available for Plan 9. I have never gotten it to work. http://plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp/netlib/kaffe/ On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote: Thanks, it is great news. Actually i have been shocked, may first point of view was that it is too much for me, try to port some software without gnu autotools support. But if autotools could fly under Plan9 it is not so bad as i think :)) I have forgot, another one question: what about Java under Plan9? Is it possible to have JVM? Or no suitable package available? )) 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If the archive actually has a configure script, the best way to start configuring is with: % ape/psh # ./configure --prefix=$home --build=i386 --bindir=$home/bin/ $objtype --lib=$home/lib On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote: Thanks for a fast reply ) I'll check out documents about APE, if my questions will be actual after that, i will post thous here. 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Autotools is in the GCC package. However, there is a nice and clean way to port alien software using APE: page /sys/doc/ape.ps On Feb 2, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote: Hello everyone :) I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about it :) And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system (autoconf, automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some alternative? :) I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't find any documentation about how i should do this in plan9 style ) PS: sorry for my horrible English :) 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work, though. On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote: Another question from newbie : I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language for Plan9; I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story: - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it? - has it been 'banned' from Plan9? - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the messages I saw)... Thank for your attention. Michael.
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
Autotools badness is way beyond most peoples wildest imagination... uriel On Feb 2, 2008 6:10 PM, Charles Forsyth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But if autotools could fly under Plan9 it is not so bad as i think :)) autotools is every bit as bad as one could think.
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
* Uriel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Autotools badness is way beyond most peoples wildest imagination... Unfortunately, you don't have to imagine.
[9fans] $200 walmart PC
works like a champ. I yanked the drives out of the old K7-based box, dropped them into the walmart PC, after removing the 80G gOS drive, plugged it into the net, and was up in no time. So these are really effective Plan 9 boxes. 512G memory feels so roomy! ron
Re: [9fans] $200 walmart PC
On Feb 2, 2008 1:30 PM, ron minnich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So these are really effective Plan 9 boxes. 512G memory feels so roomy! I'm thinking that 512G is pretty roomy at this time no matter how you shake it up. :-) - Dan C. (Who thinks that Ron meant to write 512M)
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
On 02/02/2008, Martin Neubauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Uriel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Autotools badness is way beyond most peoples wildest imagination... Unfortunately, you don't have to imagine. So what are the facts to back up so many posts regarding autotools badness? Just curious. -- Fidonet: 2:345/432.2
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
On Feb 2, 2008 2:22 PM, Juan M. Mendez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So what are the facts to back up so many posts regarding autotools badness? I mostly manage to avoid working on things where I've had to use them as a producer, so I don't have the whole toolchain lying around. I'm more than happy to judge them on their output, though. Just to pick the first gnu* directory i spotted in my src directory in my $home, gnutls: : vav; wc config* Make* 15004928 44208 config.guess 6223005 17933 config.h 6212773 16967 config.h.in 6769 26859 211980 config.log 5711566 14869 config.rpath 15485795 57952 config.status 16084255 32448 config.sub 46730 159658 1393861 configure 6321709 19218 configure.in 8383222 27923 Makefile 59 3332210 Makefile.am 8383158 27552 Makefile.in 62336 217261 1867121 total That's an awful lot of work just to get the thing to build. Oh, but it's all in the service of portability, I hear you say! Well, let's contrast this to what we see on Plan 9: : root; pwd /sys/src : root; wc mkfile mkfile.proto 9/*/mkfile cmd/mkfile cmd/mklib cmd/mkmany cmd/mkone cmd/mksyslib cmd/*/mkfile | tail -1 53238409 78037 total That's for nearly every command, plus al the kernels. Every architecture. Less than a tenth the size. And there's nothing magical about Plan 9 here. Once can build things on Unix in just the same way; some packages manage to resist the temptation. That level of gluttony would, perhaps, be forgivable if it worked reliably. But god forbid you try to do something slightly farther afield than the packager anticipated (which, frequently, is Linux/386 plus maybe a BSD or two), or that the versions of the tools used anticipated. Things will break, badly, in arbitrary places in an incomprehensible mess of interconnected dependencies. It's just the wrong solution to portability. Anthony
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
So what are the facts to back up so many posts regarding autotools badness? Just curious. part of the issue is that autotool solves a problem that doesn't exist on plan 9 systems. one doesn't need to test for compilers, exotic library problems or portability issues. (small rant: unfortunately, porting a lot of gnu stuff to plan 9 makes some sort of compatability goo necessary again.) another problem with autoconf is it encourages a style of programming that exploits every last nook and cranny of a system's compiler's capabilities when the vast majority of applications will do just fine with the least common denominator. if one's goal is to run on a variety of unix systems, this just is poor engineering. as a case in point, my sacrificial linux machine is a 993mhz pIII. mplayer, an application one would think would benefit from fancy optimizations on such a slow machine, shows absolutely no visible performance benefit from sse2 instructions. it is fast enough already. imho, p9p and russ' unix extracts from p9p show a much cleaner way to port unix stuff. his method requires about 10 lines of system-specific stuff and about 75 lines of Makefile. one last gripe: autotools often take longer to ./configure than to compile with gcc. curious that gcc is famed for slowness. - erik
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
Autotools increases portability by 57%, but then decreases portability by 75% (mv -f, ls -i not available in Plan 9), decreases usability by 750%, and decreases sanity by 7500%. I wanted to contribute to AbIWord but it took me a long time before I got it built. :-( Then I discovered troff in the back of Kernighan/Pike and am much happier :-) On Feb 2, 2008, at 1:27 PM, Martin Neubauer wrote: * Uriel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Autotools badness is way beyond most peoples wildest imagination... Unfortunately, you don't have to imagine.
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
* Pietro Gagliardi ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Autotools increases portability by 57%, but then decreases Actually, they increase the _impression_ of portability by 57%. The other effects are real, though.
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
On Feb 2, 2008 11:22 AM, Juan M. Mendez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So what are the facts to back up so many posts regarding autotools badness? Just curious. 1. it's not needed. See plan9 ports and lots of other tools that somehow get by without it. 2. a 150,000 line configure shell script? That right there should tell you something's seriously wrong. but it happens. 3. it's not portable. Since the goal is portability, something has been lost here. 4. Warning from the openib stack: you have version 1.59 (or some such) of autotools, and I need 1.60 Oh, ok, there's a version of the configuration tools? What's wrong with this picture? It would all be funny but people actually use this stuff, and that's sad. ron
Re: [9fans] Serious Problem Running Plan 9 on Virtual PC
On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:03:31 -, Bakul Shah [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you tried qemu? It works fine for me. I am right now trying (and being disappointed with) VirtualBox which is essentially QEMU in disguie (or so says the Wikipedia article). As with VPC, I tried both Plan 9 and FreeBSD on it. The FreeBSD VM is copying the distribution right now and doing it blazing fast compared to the sluggish IDE activity on VPC. Still, Plan 9 would not even boot live on it. Somewhere after choosing where to boot from, things slow down to a halt and that is it. Seems like Plan 9 is all too manipulative and these virtualizers would not take that ;-) -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: [9fans] Serious Problem Running Plan 9 on Virtual PC
...Seems like Plan 9 is all too manipulative and these virtualizers would not take that ;-) I have never used VPC or virtual box, but qemu works fine for me on a ppc mac. The install was slow but I expected that, I just started it and went out for a beer. Now its installed it boots and runs fine. -Steve
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
Juan M. Mendez wrote: On 02/02/2008, Martin Neubauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Uriel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Autotools badness is way beyond most peoples wildest imagination... Unfortunately, you don't have to imagine. So what are the facts to back up so many posts regarding autotools badness? Just curious. An alternative interpretation is that the facts are skewed by the Bell Labs reality distortion field. The syllogism goes something like this: All things not made at Bell Labs are bad GNU is not made at Bell Labs Therefore, GNU is bad
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
An alternative interpretation is that the facts are skewed by the Bell Labs reality distortion field. The syllogism goes something like this: All things not made at Bell Labs are bad GNU is not made at Bell Labs Therefore, GNU is bad If you think about what the letters of GNU stand for, you might appreciate that the forms are in mutual opposition. They provide completely different approaches to software. Good and Bad are value judgments. If you think GNU is the right way to build things, Plan 9 is probably not for you, and vice versa. -rob
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
Except that Bell Labs has shown much more appreciation for things invented outside than anyone else. Some of the best ideas in Unix were lifted from Multics, the genius was to drop all the cruft. CSP is another good example, ignored by a world that thinks pthreads is the only way to write concurrent applications... and there are many other examples that anyone that has done even the most cursory reading of the Plan 9 will already know about. Now, can you point to *anything* gnu has ever produced that is not at best a hideously grotesque copy of something that might have made sense thirty years ago. uriel P.S.: Sorry for being so easily trolled, but seems that I'm not the only one ;) On Feb 3, 2008 2:17 AM, Robert William Fuller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Juan M. Mendez wrote: On 02/02/2008, Martin Neubauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Uriel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Autotools badness is way beyond most peoples wildest imagination... Unfortunately, you don't have to imagine. So what are the facts to back up so many posts regarding autotools badness? Just curious. An alternative interpretation is that the facts are skewed by the Bell Labs reality distortion field. The syllogism goes something like this: All things not made at Bell Labs are bad GNU is not made at Bell Labs Therefore, GNU is bad
[9fans] CUPS printing
Hi, I've got a question that you might be able to answer - I've just installed Plan9 on Parallels and I've got the networking set up OK. Now I want to set up a printer - I've got a HP deskjet printer attached to an OSX server (so I could connect to it via CUPS or SAMBA) - is there anyway to get Plan9 to print to it Thanks Keith
Re: [9fans] CUPS printing
Plan 9 uses neither CUPS nor CIFS (the protocol used by Samba). 1) Find your printer in Parallels. You might need it connected to USB. 2) Read http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Printer_configuration/ index.html 3) Once you have your device ID, set it to LPDEST by adding the line LPDEST = device ID here to the TOP of /usr/$user/lib/profile. 4) Test it out: lp /sys/doc/title.ps On Feb 2, 2008, at 7:49 PM, Keith Poole wrote: Hi, I've got a question that you might be able to answer - I've just installed Plan9 on Parallels and I've got the networking set up OK. Now I want to set up a printer - I've got a HP deskjet printer attached to an OSX server (so I could connect to it via CUPS or SAMBA) - is there anyway to get Plan9 to print to it Thanks Keith
[9fans] Color change?
Hello. I just went up from a 24-bit display to a 32-bit display in QEMU, and I noticed that rio, acme, and games/mahjongg had different colors. Is this normal/expected/in the source or images? Thanks.
Re: [9fans] Color change?
Hello. I just went up from a 24-bit display to a 32-bit display in QEMU, and I noticed that rio, acme, and games/mahjongg had different colors. Is this normal/expected/in the source or images? Thanks. no. - erik
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
An alternative interpretation is that the facts are skewed by the Bell Labs reality distortion field. The syllogism goes something like this: All things not made at Bell Labs are bad GNU is not made at Bell Labs Therefore, GNU is bad if this holds, then plan 9 uses ip, smtp, dns, ntp, ethernet, x86, c. these were not invented at bell labs thus using plan 9 is bad. - erik
[9fans] Plan9 Trademark ?
Is Plan 9 trademarked? IANAL but there could be a problem http://www.plan9software.com/
Re: [9fans] Plan9 Trademark ?
Plan 9 is an incomplete name. That company refers to themselves as PLAN9, which is not trademarked. Plan 9 from Bell Labs is the full name of the OS, and it is copyrighted. I don't know if Plan 9 from Outer Space is copyrighted. On Feb 2, 2008, at 8:37 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is Plan 9 trademarked? IANAL but there could be a problem http://www.plan9software.com/
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
An alternative interpretation is that the facts are skewed by the Bell Labs reality distortion field. The syllogism goes something like this: All things not made at Bell Labs are bad GNU is not made at Bell Labs Therefore, GNU is bad if this holds, then plan 9 uses ip, smtp, dns, ntp, ethernet, x86, c. these were not invented at bell labs thus using plan 9 is bad. - erik I don't know that x86 qualifies as non-bad. John
Re: [9fans] A newbie question...
On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 00:30:38 -, Rob Pike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An alternative interpretation is that the facts are skewed by the Bell Labs reality distortion field. The syllogism goes something like this: All things not made at Bell Labs are bad GNU is not made at Bell Labs Therefore, GNU is bad If you think about what the letters of GNU stand for, you might appreciate that the forms are in mutual opposition. They provide completely different approaches to software. Good and Bad are value judgments. If you think GNU is the right way to build things, Plan 9 is probably not for you, and vice versa. -rob Is that the Rob Pike? The R? If so, please accept me humble reverence, sire! Hallowed be thy practice (of programming)! P. S. Down here in my country, Iran, we have this tradition of inventing sacred things out of thin air. A considerable proportion of the divine and the sacred spilled all over the globe began with that frailty of ours :-D -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
