[abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
James Allwright wrote: >The inconsistency is deliberate. The point is that when you play >a hornpipe or anything else with dotted rhythm (or swing, or >whatever you want to call it), keeping a 3:1 ratio is rather >harder than keeping a 2:1 ratio and doesn't really add much >musically apart from a certain pedantic pleasure in knowing that >you are playing exactly what your notation says. This is why >abc2midi makes the assumption that a>b is meant to be played as >a 2:1 ratio. I think this is in accordance with the original >spirit of '>' even if this is not spelt out in the standard. It sounds like you're saying that ">" cannot be used to notate the first notes of "Mari's Wedding" to play as I've always heard it played. This would be unacceptable. __ /\/\/\/\ <__> | | | | | David Barnert <__> | | | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <__> | | | | | Albany, N.Y. <__> \/\/\/\/ Ventilator Concertina Bellows Bellows (Vocation) (Avocation) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
On Tue, 28 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > James Allwright wrote: > > >The inconsistency is deliberate. The point is that when you play > >a hornpipe or anything else with dotted rhythm (or swing, or > >whatever you want to call it), keeping a 3:1 ratio is rather > >harder than keeping a 2:1 ratio and doesn't really add much > >musically apart from a certain pedantic pleasure in knowing that > >you are playing exactly what your notation says. This is why > >abc2midi makes the assumption that a>b is meant to be played as > >a 2:1 ratio. I think this is in accordance with the original > >spirit of '>' even if this is not spelt out in the standard. > > It sounds like you're saying that ">" cannot be used to notate the > first notes of "Mari's Wedding" to play as I've always heard it > played. This would be unacceptable. Or any strathspey ? Have I understood this right, abc2midi does this in all cases ? That can't be right. But, it can be used to *notate* it, sure. Just, abc2midi won't playback right unless that's what you happen to want. yaps, using the same parser, will _display_ it fine. -- Richard Robinson "The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
On Tue 28 May 2002 at 08:32AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > James Allwright wrote: > > >The inconsistency is deliberate. The point is that when you play > >a hornpipe or anything else with dotted rhythm (or swing, or > >whatever you want to call it), keeping a 3:1 ratio is rather > >harder than keeping a 2:1 ratio and doesn't really add much > >musically apart from a certain pedantic pleasure in knowing that > >you are playing exactly what your notation says. This is why > >abc2midi makes the assumption that a>b is meant to be played as > >a 2:1 ratio. I think this is in accordance with the original > >spirit of '>' even if this is not spelt out in the standard. > > It sounds like you're saying that ">" cannot be used to notate the > first notes of "Mari's Wedding" to play as I've always heard it > played. This would be unacceptable. > No-one else has used Mairi's Wedding to define the meaning of ">". What ">" and "<" gives you in abc2midi is a notation for tunes in 6/8 masquerading as tunes in 4/4. This covers hornpipes and probably strathspays (though I can't tell since I don't get to hear very many of those). This is not a mistake. Perhaps you should tell the generations of musicians who have notated 6/8 tunes in 4/4 that that is unacceptable. Actually, having abc2midi as an "unacceptable" program is kind of cool. I like to think of it being a bit of rebel software :-). James Allwright To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
On Tue, 28 May 2002, James Allwright wrote: > On Tue 28 May 2002 at 08:32AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > James Allwright wrote: > > > > >The inconsistency is deliberate. The point is that when you play > > >a hornpipe or anything else with dotted rhythm (or swing, or > > >whatever you want to call it), keeping a 3:1 ratio is rather > > >harder than keeping a 2:1 ratio and doesn't really add much > > >musically apart from a certain pedantic pleasure in knowing that > > >you are playing exactly what your notation says. This is why > > >abc2midi makes the assumption that a>b is meant to be played as > > >a 2:1 ratio. I think this is in accordance with the original > > >spirit of '>' even if this is not spelt out in the standard. > > > > It sounds like you're saying that ">" cannot be used to notate the > > first notes of "Mari's Wedding" to play as I've always heard it > > played. This would be unacceptable. > > No-one else has used Mairi's Wedding to define the meaning of ">". > What ">" and "<" gives you in abc2midi is a notation for tunes in > 6/8 masquerading as tunes in 4/4. This covers hornpipes and probably > strathspays (though I can't tell since I don't get to hear very many > of those). Strathspeys are definitely not "6/8 masquerading as 4/4". In most cases it would definitely be wrong to play them as 2-and-one (if I say "in all cases" someone'll dig up a counterexample. I wouldn't be suprised, they can be weird things) - much more like 3-and-one. I would question _your_ use of the word "notation", too :) I'd call it an interpretation of the notation. After all, your parser reads it as "note, greater/less than, note", and yaps displays it as we'd all expect :) (I've been looking at your parser recently - I'm in the process of borrowing it for an improved version of my tunes-comparison project; which should be ready for the web before long). -- Richard Robinson "The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
James Allwright wrote: | > It sounds like you're saying that ">" cannot be used to notate the | > first notes of "Mari's Wedding" to play as I've always heard it | > played. This would be unacceptable. | | No-one else has used Mairi's Wedding to define the meaning of ">". | What ">" and "<" gives you in abc2midi is a notation for tunes in | 6/8 masquerading as tunes in 4/4. This covers hornpipes and probably | strathspays (though I can't tell since I don't get to hear very many | of those). This is not a mistake. Perhaps you should tell the generations | of musicians who have notated 6/8 tunes in 4/4 that that is unacceptable. | | Actually, having abc2midi as an "unacceptable" program is kind of cool. | I like to think of it being a bit of rebel software :-). Actually, what would be better would be to have it recognize R:hornpipe as meaning that > implies a triplet, while R:strathspey rewrites > as >>. While strathspeys do have triplets, they are always notated as such (and have three notes). But it's common to "overdot" both the long+short and short+long (snap) rhythms to the extent that you can. You also sometimes hear the small notes played evenly, though this isn't common. But this would definitely decrease your rebel points. Maybe you could make up for it by having options that generate the latest in metal/industrial/whatever that critics are railing against. Then we could run through O'Neill's or Playford hear how all the tunes sound in that form. (I could list a bunch of other rhythms that could be mapped to a lopsided division like this. I'm sure that lots of others could, too.) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
On Tue, 28 May 2002, John Chambers wrote: > But this would definitely decrease your rebel points. Maybe > you could make up for it by having options that generate > the latest in metal/industrial/whatever that critics are > railing against. Then we could run through O'Neill's or > Playford hear how all the tunes sound in that form. > > (I could list a bunch of other rhythms that could be mapped > to a lopsided division like this. I'm sure that lots of > others could, too.) :-) I think it's time someone wrote some of the programs in Chris Walshaw's "Abc International" section. "abc-session", and the like. I've been promising myself for years to write a random bagpipe-march generator, one day. I wrote one manymany years ago on the Sinclair Spectrum, but that machine's Basic was so slow it stopped for about 10 seconds at the end of each bar to think about the next, which wasn't too good. But these days, generating ABC ... Seriously, I definitely think that such questions of style should be put into some kind of options/settings file rather than hard-coded. To have a strathspey get played like a schottische might be fun (once in a while. Bleh. I live in England. It'd be fun to hear a strathspey played like a strathspey once in a while), but as a default, it's wrong. -- Richard Robinson "The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
John Chambers writes: >Actually, what would be better would be to have it >recognize R:hornpipe as meaning that > implies a triplet, >while R:strathspey rewrites > as >>. While strathspeys do >have triplets, they are always notated as such (and have >three notes). But it's common to "overdot" both the >long+short and short+long (snap) rhythms to the extent that >you can. You also sometimes hear the small notes played >evenly, though this isn't common. > That's all possible. One of the many nice features of Henrik Norbeck's abcmus is that the user can set the ratios for broken rhythms via the stress program. Ditto with the swing for straight rhythm. It uses the R: and M: fields to identify the type of tune, and lets one set the swing for straight and broken rhythm separately for each type of tune. You can set the ratio to be about anything you like. So it's possible to have the ratio 2:1 for broken rhythm in hornpipes and 3:1 in strathspeys. I just checked the settings in my copy, and found that for hornpipes in common time, the measures |AFDE FEDF| and |A>FD>E F>ED>F| are played exactly the same way! (That's not necessary, it's just the way it's set up. The ratio, by the way, is 7:5, not 2:1 or 3:1. Probably a little too straight for most people, but I kinda like it.) The ratios are quickly changed, so it's easy to experiment with "overdotted" rhythms to see what they sound like. Cheers, John Walsh To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
I've been trying to find a piece of music where F>F2 actually would make sense. In the end I had to write one myself. Except for the V: header fields - which are idiomatic for BarFly - this should be pretty straight forward ABC. There are a few nasty little details here, though, so maybe it'd be suitable as a test tune for an abc parser. ;-) Enjoy Frank http://www.musicaviva.com --- X:1 T:none C:Frank Nordberg V:1 program 1 64 V:2 program 1 25 transpose -12 M:10/16 L:1/8 Q:5/16=100 K:Flyd _G V:1 z>z2 z>z2|:z>z2 z>z2|F>F2 F2FE/ F3/-F/B/-| V:2 .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|:.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)| % V:1 B>AG < FE/F/|G>G2 G2BG/ F>AD/|[1((3C/D/Cz2:| V:2 .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|[1.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/):| % V:1 [2((3C/D/C(F/G//A//B//||c3/-c- c3/-c)|(cdcAB)|c3/-c- c3/-c| V:2 [2.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)||.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|\ .G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)| % V:1 (cdcAB)|d(c/(3d/c/B/ A->A2-|[M:5/16]A> (3FD/C/|[M:10/16]B,>DC/ B,3/-B,-|B,)>z2 z>z2|| V:2 .G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|\ [M:5/16].G,G/(C/B,/)|[M:10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)| --- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
James Allwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What ">" and "<" gives you in abc2midi is a notation for tunes in > 6/8 masquerading as tunes in 4/4. This covers hornpipes and probably > strathspays (though I can't tell since I don't get to hear very many > of those). This is not a mistake. Yes it is, as far as strathspeys are concerned. Many people play »>« stuff in strathspeys tending towards 7:1 rather than 3:1 (that is, »A>A« sounds like »A>>A« rather than »(3A2A«) but very few people if any consider strathspeys pseudo-12/8. The »>« notation is so useful for strathspeys, many of which consist of nothing but »X>Y« and »X« (and »<«) is just what the doctor ordered. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caveat: untested, so there may be typos, or even thoughtos. -- Donald Arseneau To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
Frank Nordberg wrote: >I've been trying to find a piece of music where F>F2 actually would make >sense. In the end I had to write one myself. >Except for the V: header fields - which are idiomatic for BarFly - this >should be pretty straight forward ABC. There are a few nasty little >details here, though, so maybe it'd be suitable as a test tune for an >abc parser. ;-) Ooh that's dirty! Ties across metre changes, across into and out of broken rhythm pairs, broken rhythms used as part of triplets... And it actually works as a piece of music too. Might I suggest "An Evil Grin" as a title? Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
Phil Taylor wrote: > > Ooh that's dirty! Ties across metre changes, across into and out of > broken rhythm pairs, broken rhythms used as part of triplets... Well, the general idea was to cover as many problems with the >, ties, slurs and triplet brackets as possible. And then I just threw in the global accidental gimmick just to make the matter even worse. > And it actually works as a piece of music too. Thanks :-) But I've got this bad feeling that's only true if you use BarFly I was rather shocked I saw and heard the output from abc2ps and abc2midi. I mean, for all it's weirdness, it's just plain abc, and though I did expect some problems, I definitely didn't expect two such prominent abc applications to come up with sheer gibberish. I really wonder what the results from other abc applications are. In case anybody want to compare, I've posted BarFly's output at: http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/turkish-spam.mid and: http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/turkish-spam.gif It's a slightly longer version than the one I posted at the list. The new abc can be found at: http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/turkish-spam.abc > > Might I suggest "An Evil Grin" as a title? That's a good one, but since the tune's got some vague "oriental" feel and since it's supposed to comment on recent events at abcusers, I though maybe "Turkish Spam" would be better... Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
Frank asked "I really wonder what the results from other abc applications are." Well, (deep breath) Muse didn't like it a lot. It generates a bug report saying "ABC ties don't match Muse ties. Please report this bug to me." That is one of quite a learge number of messages in Muse that are never supposed to appear (Assertions in the jargon), so in other words it broke Muse. Muse also produced many complaints (the listing below only works with a fixed space font) in which it in effect reported its own limitations without being broken. I think "Evil Grin" would be just fine as a title. T:none C:Frank Nordberg V:1 program 1 64 V:2 program 1 25 transpose -12 M:10/16 L:1/8 Q:5/16=100 K:Flyd _G ^ >>> Unknown symbol in K: field V:1 z>z2 z>z2|:z>z2 z>z2|F>F2 F2FE/ F3/-F/B/-| V:2 .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|:.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ ^ >>> Cannot tie across a Repeat control. (Muse restriction - tie deleted.) .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)| % V:1 B>AG < FE/F/|G>G2 G2BG/ F>AD/|[1((3C/D/Cz2:| V:2 .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|[1.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/):| % V:1 [2((3C/D/C(F/G//A//B//||c3/-c- c3/-c)|(cdcAB)|c3/-c- c3/-c| V:2 [2.F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)||.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|\ .G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)| % V:1 (cdcAB)|d(c/(3d/c/B/ A->A2-|[M:5/16]A> (3FD/C/|[M:10/16]B,>DC/ ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol ":5/16]A> (3FD/C/|[M:10/16]B,>DC/" ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol "5/16]A> (3FD/C/|[M:10/16]B,>DC/" ^ >>> Cannot tie across a Repeat control. (Muse restriction - tie deleted.) ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol "6]A> (3FD/C/|[M:10/16]B,>DC/" ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol ":10/16]B,>DC/" ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol "0/16]B,>DC/" ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol "6]B,>DC/" B,3/-B,-|B,)>z2 z>z2|| V:2 .G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|.G,G/(C/B,/) G/G,/G/(C/B,/)|\ [M:5/16].G,G/(C/B,/)|[M:10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\ ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol ":5/16].G,G/(C/B,/)|[M:10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\" ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol "5/16].G,G/(C/B,/)|[M:10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\" ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol "6].G,G/(C/B,/)|[M:10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\" ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol ":10/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\" ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol "0/16].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\" ^ >>> Ignoring unexpected ABC symbol "6].F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)|\" .F,F/(C/B,/) F/F,/F/(C/B,/)| To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
On Thu, 2002-05-30 at 16:11, Frank Nordberg wrote:
>
> I really wonder what the results from other abc applications are.
For what it's worth, abcm2ps 2.10.9 (February 10, 2002) didn't have any
problem with it apart from the global accidentals, which it gave one
warning about ("Unknown token in key specifier in line 9.10"). So, it
didn't print any G flats, but it printed everything else just fine.
There was one additional error it gave: "Cannot handle note length for
note", with no line number given. I'm not sure where this error
occurred, since the output looked fine. It usually means that there's
some odd duration like C5 that it can't resolve into a single notehead.
I can post a PDF (23K) or PostScript (43K) file containing the output if
anyone's interested.
- Eric
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
Eric Galluzzo wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2002-05-30 at 16:11, Frank Nordberg wrote:
> >
> > I really wonder what the results from other abc applications are.
>
> For what it's worth, abcm2ps 2.10.9 (February 10, 2002) didn't have any
> problem with it apart from the global accidentals, which it gave one
> warning about ("Unknown token in key specifier in line 9.10"). So, it
> didn't print any G flats, but it printed everything else just fine.
> There was one additional error it gave: "Cannot handle note length for
> note", with no line number given. I'm not sure where this error
> occurred, since the output looked fine. It usually means that there's
> some odd duration like C5 that it can't resolve into a single notehead.
>
> I can post a PDF (23K) or PostScript (43K) file containing the output if
> anyone's interested.
It'd be nice to have a look at it.
Does anybody have a Macintosh port of abcm2ps, btw?
Frank
http://www.musicaviva.com
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: The F > F (and F > F2) problems
On Sat, 2002-06-01 at 06:43, Frank Nordberg wrote: > > > Eric Galluzzo wrote: > > > > For what it's worth, abcm2ps 2.10.9 (February 10, 2002) didn't have any > > problem with it apart from the global accidentals [snip] > > I can post a PDF (23K) or PostScript (43K) file containing the output if > > anyone's interested. > > It'd be nice to have a look at it. The PDF is attached. - Eric frank-untitled.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document
