Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Phil Taylor]

Jack Campin wrote:

>A couple of my musician friends don't have computers of their own,
>they use Hotmail or Yahoo accounts at work or at internet cafes.
>Installing an ABC application at either isn't on.  Hotmail doesn't
>even know how to display an attached GIF.
>
>How can somebody on one of these systems use an emailed ABC file if
>they aren't familiar enough with the notation to read the source?

Well, the ultimate solution is contained in your last sentence, but
failing that, how about approaching your local library?  I would
imagine that most libraries would be glad to install abc software
on their public-access terminals.  I'll ask my brother (who is a
librarian) about it.

There is also the tune-o-tron site:

http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html

which uses (I think) abc2ps, Ghostscript & abc2midi to convert abc
tunes which you paste into a form into gif, pdf or midi, removing
the need for any locally-installed software.

Phil Taylor
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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[dman]

On Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 12:12:09AM +0100, Jack Campin wrote:
| A couple of my musician friends don't have computers of their own,
| they use Hotmail or Yahoo accounts at work or at internet cafes.
| Installing an ABC application at either isn't on.  Hotmail doesn't
| even know how to display an attached GIF.

What nice service ...

| How can somebody on one of these systems use an emailed ABC file if
| they aren't familiar enough with the notation to read the source?

I think that familiarity with the notation is one of ABCs goals so
that it can be used as-is in plain ASCII form.  Anyways, how much
hard drive access is there?  Surely the web browser has a cache
directory it can write to at the very least.  A solution would be to
save the GIF attachment to that public writable directory and then
point the web browser (or other tool) to that GIF on disk to view it.
It is really hard to use a computer that lacks the necessary tools
when you have to opportunity to install those tools.  Maybe the cafe
managers would be willing to listen to suggestions, especially if it
could improve business.

-D

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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Frank Nordberg]

Jack Campin wrote:
> 
> A couple of my musician friends don't have computers of their own,
> they use Hotmail or Yahoo accounts at work or at internet cafes.
> Installing an ABC application at either isn't on.  Hotmail doesn't
> even know how to display an attached GIF.
> 
> How can somebody on one of these systems use an emailed ABC file if
> they aren't familiar enough with the notation to read the source?

Have a look at the online tools listed at the abc applications directory at:
http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/abcapp/index.tpl
(select "online" in the OS menu and click on the search button)

In addition, the tune submission page at John Chamber's site is
effectively an online interface for jabc2ps and abc2midi, allowing you
to enter an abc tune and get it as sheet music or midi. The reason it
isn't listed in the directory, is that I'm not sure how happy John is
about people using it that way.


Frank Nordberg
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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[John Chambers]

Frank Nordberg writes:
| Jack Campin wrote:
| > A couple of my musician friends don't have computers of their own,
| > they use Hotmail or Yahoo accounts at work or at internet cafes.
| > Installing an ABC application at either isn't on.  Hotmail doesn't
| > even know how to display an attached GIF.
| > How can somebody on one of these systems use an emailed ABC file if
| > they aren't familiar enough with the notation to read the source?
|
| Have a look at the online tools listed at the abc applications directory at:
| http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/abcapp/index.tpl
| (select "online" in the OS menu and click on the search button)
|
| In addition, the tune submission page at John Chamber's site is
| effectively an online interface for jabc2ps and abc2midi, allowing you
| to enter an abc tune and get it as sheet music or midi. The reason it
| isn't listed in the directory, is that I'm not sure how happy John is
| about people using it that way.

Well, actually, I wrote it to  use  it  that  way  myself,  when  I'm
somewhere  far  away from my home machine.  It hasn't been noticed by
many people, but a few have used it. I don't mind this at all.  I can
always  remove  it (or just rename it) if there is any sort of abuse.
The main warning would probably be that I consider it an  experiment,
and its behavior is likely to change from one week to the next.

And, of course, one reason for not publicising it is that I'd like to
encourage  others  to experiment with similar things, rather than use
mine.  Then I can look at their site and steal some ideas.  This does
seem to have been a successful strategy ...

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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[auchan]

What is the URL for John's site, please?

Thanks,
Aubrey
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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Frank Nordberg]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> What is the URL for John's site, please?

It's
http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/


Whish reminds me, I haven't posted the URL list from the Free Sheet
Music Direcotry for a while. Here are the 122 URLs listed in the ABC
category of the directory. Please notify me if I've missed any sites -
or if there are some that shouldnt have been there



Homepage von Hermann Fritz
http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a7425519/

The Brussels Caledonian Corneymusers Pipe Band Page
http://www.multimania.com/corneymusers/

"Scots-L" Scottish music and culture resource pages
http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~ibb/scd/Music/

The ABC project
http://abc.sourceforge.net/

SAINAK member page
http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/ohgaki/sainak/sainak.html

The Playback Machine
http://www.mbay.net/~brendah/articles/PDA.Jul.96/

Sven Buehling's Homepage
http://www.uni-jena.de/~osb/tradswed/

Dexter N. Muir, ABC Tunes
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dexy/celtic.htm

The Left Handed Fiddler
http://members.xoom.com/Leffidd/

Online ABC Music Formatting
http://www.formulus.com/hymns/abc2gif.html

Flatpicker.com
http://www.flatpicker.com

Dan Cobb's Extended Home Page
http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~cobb/

Transferring, playing and printing tunes
http://www.sff.net/people/julia.west/filk/abtabc.htm

The Minimal Ceilidh Tune Book
http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~thomas.green/tunebook/

ABCTwin
http://www.logeny.com/abctwin.htm

Jim Mahoney
http://www.gradcenter.marlboro.edu/~mahoney

TRAD - Traditional Irish Music
http://www.firepowr.com/

Co-Mando.com
http://www.co-mando.com/

Les Infants du Catiau
http://users.skynet.be/infants/musiques/

Lewes Favourites
http://members.aol.com/LewesArmsFolk/Lewesfav.html

Concertina.net
http://www.concertina.net/

Folk Music in ABC format
http://www.mucl.de/~mdoering/konzertina/en/music/abctunes.htm

Blarney Stone Pub Session Tunebook
http://members.home.com/eskin/tunebook.html

Abc archive of lute music
http://msg.wins.uva.nl/~walstra/ABCArchive/

Ceol agus Rinnce
http://www.c7r.com/

Irishtunes.net
http://irishtunes.net/irishtunes.html

The Zouki "Vanity, Vanity, All Is Vanity" Web-Page
http://www.capecod.net/~bblack/

Notationsprogramme für Atari-Systeme
http://home.t-online.de/home/Markus_Lutz/atari.html

J.C.'s abc music
http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/

La Taberna
http://www.taberna.com.ar/

Folkband Falaleiro
http://home.t-online.de/home/pheld/noten.htm

Tablatures systéme Universel
http://diato.org/tablat.htm

José João Dias de Almeida
http://shiva.di.uminho.pt/~jj/

Tunes at Ceolas
http://www.ceolas.org/tunes/

Chris Walshaw
http://www.gre.ac.uk/~c.walshaw/abc/

Rob's bagpipe page
http://famdeboer.www.cistron.nl/bagpipe.html

Mike Gaskin's Home Page
http://Fox.nstn.ca:80/~mgasikn/violin.html

Henrik and Lilo's Homepage
http://hjem.get2net.dk/widell/

Traditional-style tunes for today
http://home.clara.net/gmatkin/tunes.htm

Sydney Scottish Fiddlers ABC tunes
http://home.primus.com.au/timbarker/

Henrik Norbeck
http://home.swipnet.se/hnorbeck/abc.htm

Runabc intro
http://ifdo.pugmarks.com/~seymour/runabc/top.html

Kazimodal
http://kazimodal.trad.org/

Ceili House Band Home Page
http://members.aol.com/boynehunt/ceili.html

Manche trad
http://members.aol.com/jmarchenry

KONY Song Share
http://members.aol.com/somido/abcsongs.html

Simon Wascher
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/homepage_abc.htm

Stephen Klein
http://members.tripod.com/~Rosin_the_bow/tunes.html

Jef's page
http://moinejf.free.fr/

"Bruno" Dale Reid's Renaissance Dance and Home Page
http://people.we.mediaone.net/brunodale/dances.html

Irish guitar
http://perso.club-internet.fr/banwarth/engguitare.htm

L'Escolo de la Mountagno
http://perso.club-internet.fr/ocoronel/

James Allwright's Home Page
http://perun.hscs.wmin.ac.uk/~jra/

Allan Ng - fiddler, Germanist and nerd
http://alan-ng.net/alan/

The Piper's Corner
http://pw2.netcom.com/~crfowler/pcorner.htm

BarFlyPage
http://www.barfly.dial.pipex.com

Chris Ricker's Fiddle Page
http://tnt.vianet.on.ca/pages/rickere/index.shtml

Roots of folk
http://users.erols.com/olsonw/

Riley School of Irish Music
http://w3.one.net/~rsim/

Bassett Street Hounds Border Morris Tunes
http://web.syr.edu/~htkeays/morris/hounds/

Diatonica Transkriptions
http://www.8ung.at/diatonica/abc_eng.html

Accordionlinks
http://www.AccordionLinks.com/publisher.cfm

Robert Blakeley, Traditional Irish Music
http://www.akula.com/~blakeley/music/index.html

Nigel Gatherer
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/index.html

HF's Music Page
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~exxhf/music/music.html

Celtic Bar-B-Q
http://www.blueskiesink.com/bar-b-q/index.htm

Chris Ormston - Northumbrian piper
http://www.blueskiesink.com/Ormston/default.htm

The plumber of hornpipes
http://www.blueskiesink.com/reavy/

Andy Alexis' Hammered Dulcimer Page
http://www.calweb.com/~ndlxs/dulcimer.html

Mark Fitzsimons - Celtic Musician
http://www.celticmusic.co.nz/greenman/mark/

Roger Landes -Dragon Reels
http://www.celticmusic.com/roger_

Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Laura Conrad]

> "Frank" == Frank Nordberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


Frank> Blacklisted sites:

Why are the blacklisted sites blacklisted?


-- 
Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097  fax: (801) 365-6574 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Frank Nordberg]

Laura Conrad wrote:
> 
> > "Frank" == Frank Nordberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> Frank> Blacklisted sites:
> 
> Why are the blacklisted sites blacklisted?

The Session because it's become a membership site, the others because
they are currently gone from the web. When a site disappears, I usually
put it on the "blacklist" rather than remove it from the database, in
case it returns.

Frank
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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Laura Conrad]

> "Frank" == Frank Nordberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> Why are the blacklisted sites blacklisted?

Frank> The Session because it's become a membership site, the
Frank> others because they are currently gone from the web. When a
Frank> site disappears, I usually put it on the "blacklist" rather
Frank> than remove it from the database, in case it returns.

In American English, blacklist has a pretty negative connotation.
Maybe you should change the name to "inactive" or something.

-- 
Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097  fax: (801) 365-6574 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[John Chambers]

Phil Taylor writes:
| John Chambers wrote:
| >Possible, but it would require a bit of a change to current  parsers.
| >Like  most ABC programs, my code tries hard to ignore everything that
| >isn't part of an ABC "tune".  And it's real hard to write  code  that
| >matches  English-language  warnings  or  restrictions.  If they're in
| >other languages, it's even harder.
|
| I was thinking of more formal instructions which could be placed in
| a field in the abc, e.g.
|
| I:RobotsDontIndex
|
| or
|
| I:RobotsWholeFileOnly
|
| and which (ideally) might become part of the abc standard.

Putting such instructions inside  the  ABC  "tunes"  would  certainly
help.  But I'd question whether this would have the desired result.

In the case of my search bot, it does read the entire file.  Its job,
after  all,  is to build an index of the ABC tunes that it finds.  It
pretty much has to read the entire  file.   So  the  second  I  field
wouldn't change its behavior at all.  The first would, but would just
mean that the file wouldn't be indexed.  You can  do  this  with  the
robots.txt  file,  but this I field would be better for ABC if that's
what you want.

The extraction of single tunes is done by other programs, CGI scripts
in  my  Tune  Finder's case.  And even they still download the entire
file, because again that's all they can do.  There's no way to ask  a
web  server for a portion of a file; you just have to read through it
from the beginning.  You can disconnect after you've found  what  you
want,  but you can't avoid reading everything before that.  (And it's
likely that if you disconnect, the server will have sent  the  entire
file  by  the  time it realizes that you're gone, since file transfer
times are comparable to the two round trips that it takes for TCP  to
terminate a connection.)

The "extraction" part comes about because of a web front  end  to  my
tune  index  files that know how to do this.  In at least one case, I
can again say that there's no choice.  One of the formats returned is
MIDI. This is done by feeding the selected tune to abc2midi, which is
the only program that I know of that can run on unix as a  subprocess
to a CGI script, read ABC, and produce MIDI. One of its properties is
that it only translates the first tune in its input.  So if you  want
to  hear  the 17th tune in the file, you must precede abc2midi with a
filter that cuts out everything before the X:17 line.

It's not obvious to me how the above I lines would apply to this. The
first  would just mean that the tune wouldn't be in the index at all.
The second would mean that all MIDI  requests  would  get  the  first
tune,  in  which case you might as well not bother (unless that's the
tune that the user asked for).

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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Phil Taylor]

John Chambers wrote:

>It's not obvious to me how the above I lines would apply to this. The
>first  would just mean that the tune wouldn't be in the index at all.
>The second would mean that all MIDI  requests  would  get  the  first
>tune,  in  which case you might as well not bother (unless that's the
>tune that the user asked for).
>

What should happen in the second case is that when that tune appears
in a list of hits, the buttons which retrieve GIF, ps or midi would
be disabled, and the abc button would retrieve the whole file.
(I've no idea how easy that would be to implement - presumably the
index would need an extra field to hold the information.)

Presumably this would not affect normal search robots at all, since they
won't index .abc files anyway?

Phil Taylor


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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[dman]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 11:03:51PM +0100, Phil Taylor wrote:
| John Chambers wrote:
| 
| >It's not obvious to me how the above I lines would apply to this. The
| >first  would just mean that the tune wouldn't be in the index at all.
| >The second would mean that all MIDI  requests  would  get  the  first
| >tune,  in  which case you might as well not bother (unless that's the
| >tune that the user asked for).
| 
| What should happen in the second case is that when that tune appears
| in a list of hits, the buttons which retrieve GIF, ps or midi would
| be disabled, and the abc button would retrieve the whole file.
| (I've no idea how easy that would be to implement - presumably the
| index would need an extra field to hold the information.)

This can be done when working with a real GUI toolkit, but to do this
with HTML pages and CGI scripts means redirecting the user to a new
page with the given UI properties.  The other solution is to write an
applet in Java or Python (use the Java implementation called Jython)
that will use AWT/Swing and basically be a "real" application, though
it runs on the clients system so it would need a way to remotely
access the index and the actual data.

-D

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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Jack Campin]

>> I'm getting quite tempted by the idea of putting all the ABC on my
>> site into archive files so as to counter search engine abuse.
> If you have access to the root level directory on your site you can put
> up a Robots.txt file to tell webspiders not to index part or all of your
> site.  If you don't have such access there's also a Robots META tag you
> can include in each page that you don't want indexed.

I'm quite happy with indexing, it's random extraction of content I want
to discourage.  The WWW culture has been over this issue already, with
general consensus (backed up in the Shetland Times vs Shetland News case
by legal precedent); site links are always ok, pulling out bits of other
people's pages and plonking them into unattributed frames isn't.


[Tune Finder]
: One of the formats returned is MIDI. This is done by feeding the
: selected tune to abc2midi, which is the only program that I know
: of that can run on unix as a subprocess to a CGI script, read ABC,
: and produce MIDI. One of its properties is that it only translates
: the first tune in its input.

The Mac port didn't behave that way last time I tried it...


: So if you want to hear the 17th tune in the file, you must precede
: abc2midi with a filter that cuts out everything before the X:17 line.

I don't find this a problem, as I'm providing ABC for people who are
or are prepared to become ABC users (that's why I take care to make
it readable as source).  If your engine refused to convert any of my
stuff into other formats that'd be fine by me.


One piece of file-context-dependence that I am likely to introduce on my
site fairly soon is BarFly macros.  For some stuff I want to transcribe,
these make for a big improvement to source readability and accuracy of
transcription.  I believe some of the Windows implementors may be thinking
about supporting them (Henrik?  Laurie?)  but there seems to be no
interest as yet from the Unix camp.  I'd rather get the ABC right first
and wait for the programmers to catch up.  In this instance, the macros
need not even be in the same file as the tunes, though I don't intend to
exploit that possibility for a while yet.

===  ===


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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Anselm Lingnau]

John Chambers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> There's no way to ask  a
> web  server for a portion of a file; you just have to read through it
> from the beginning.

As a matter of fact you can ask a web server for a portion of a file, 
according to recent versions of HTTP (see RFC 2616, search for `range 
unit'). Of course the HTTP server needs to play along. Also it seems 
that for ABC it might be more trouble than it's worth, since you would 
have to remember the exact position of each tune in the file, and if 
the file maintainer adds a few bytes at the beginning everything goes 
south until the next time your indexer looks at the file.

Anselm
-- 
Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You see things, and you say `Why?'
But I dream things that never were, and say `Why not?'-- G. B. Shaw


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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Anselm Lingnau]

Jack Campin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> One piece of file-context-dependence that I am likely to introduce on my
> site fairly soon is BarFly macros. [...] but there seems to be no
> interest as yet from the Unix camp.  I'd rather get the ABC right first
> and wait for the programmers to catch up.

We don't really have to wait for the programmers to catch up. If I
understand BarFly macros correctly, they're simply bits of text that get
replaced by other bits of text. If we're suitably desperate, writing a
simple preprocessor to do that shouldn't take more than a Perl
interpreter and a rainy afternoon, and it will basically macro-enable
all Unix-based abc tools at the cost of a minor inconvenience. The
programs themselves can be fixed in due course once the idea is firmly
established (and properly documented?).

If someone (Phil?) sends me a detailed description of what BarFly macros
do and how they are defined in BarFly abc files I'd be happy to give it
a try on the next rainy afternoon. (Right now it is sunny outside and
going on 30°C.) As of now I'm not really desperate but it looks like a
fun little project that might be useful to someone. And I'm always on 
the lookout for free beer when I'm travelling :^)

Anselm
-- 
Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Calm down.  It's only ones and zeros.   -- Sam Kass

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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Jack Campin]

>| What should happen in the second case is that when that tune appears
>| in a list of hits, the buttons which retrieve GIF, ps or midi would
>| be disabled, and the abc button would retrieve the whole file.
>| (I've no idea how easy that would be to implement - presumably the
>| index would need an extra field to hold the information.)
> This can be done when working with a real GUI toolkit, but to do this
> with HTML pages and CGI scripts means redirecting the user to a new
> page with the given UI properties.  The other solution is to write an
> applet in Java or Python (use the Java implementation called Jython)
> that will use AWT/Swing and basically be a "real" application, though
> it runs on the clients system so it would need a way to remotely
> access the index and the actual data.

Why does it need any special software?  The Tune Finder generates HTML
index pages with links that invoke CGI scripts to do the conversion.
If the links aren't put on the index pages, the user can't do those
invocations (or not without so much work it would be easier to just
get the tunes and and an ABC app and do it yourself).

A line of TuneFinder index contains a list of linked single-letter
buttons, like this one to generate MIDI:

http://rigel.csuchico.edu/~pubscout/tunes/perrie.html&X=1&T=PERRIEWERRIE&N=PerrieWerrie.midi";>M

All the index-generating script needs to do, for tunes which are not to
be converted, is to replace that button with " ".  SQL (I presume
that's what the database uses?) provides the means to identify which
tunes require which treatment and process them accordingly.  No need for
any of that do be done on the client machine.



===  ===


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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[John Chambers]

Anselm Lingnau writes:
| John Chambers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
|
| > There's no way to ask  a
| > web  server for a portion of a file; you just have to read through it
| > from the beginning.
|
| As a matter of fact you can ask a web server for a portion of a file,
| according to recent versions of HTTP (see RFC 2616, search for `range
| unit'). Of course the HTTP server needs to play along. Also it seems
| have to remember the exact position of each tune in the file, and if
| the file maintainer adds a few bytes at the beginning everything goes
| south until the next time your indexer looks at the file.

You're right.  I looked at this a while back, and found that  it  was
essentially  unusable.   First,  among the sites with ABC, I couldn't
find any web server other than the one here that actually implemented
this feature.  And it's quite common for people to store ABC in large
multi-tune files.  They don't always add tunes at the end;  they  are
more likely to use some logical or alphabetical order.  New tunes are
inserted at the appropriate place in the  file,  and  the  tunes  are
renumbered  at random times.  This is entirely reasonable, of course,
and it makes offsets unusable.

The general answer to this is XML, which allows you to label parts of
a  file with meaningful names.  It would be easy then for a client to
ask a server for a specific named portion of a file.  But it's  going
to be a while before we see XML used with ABC.

The ABC T and P header lines are an ABC-specific version of this,  of
course.   And we do have tools around that can extract sections using
these labels.  But while this is a convenience for  users,  it  still
means  that  the  software  must  download  the entire file until the
desired tune is found.

I'm getting tempted to do some prototyping of XML wrappers around ABC
on  my site (in my copious spare time ;-).  And we do have people who
object to downloading a portion of their files. Presumably they'd use
XML  to  just  give  a name to the entire file, making its contents a
single binary object that must be downloaded as in its entirety.

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Re: [abcusers] ABC in an internet cafe

[Phil Taylor]

Anselm Lingnau wrote:

>If someone (Phil?) sends me a detailed description of what BarFly macros
>do and how they are defined in BarFly abc files I'd be happy to give it
>a try on the next rainy afternoon. (Right now it is sunny outside and
>going on 30°C.) As of now I'm not really desperate but it looks like a
>fun little project that might be useful to someone. And I'm always on
>the lookout for free beer when I'm travelling :^)

Have a look at:

http://www.barfly.dial.pipex.com/bfextensions.html

Macros are described about half way down the page.  Static macros
are very easy to implement, while transposing macros are a little
more complicated.  If you need any more info or examples please
mail me.

Phil Taylor


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