Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically
Buddha Buck wrote off-list (the best place) to the effect that snip One thing I hear from your comment is that the MS Apps folks had access to pre-release API's to base their apps on. snip Which meant that the MS App folks got a head-start on development on the new versions snip and I replied (off-list) Correct! I believe that to be the valid complaint. It was 2-edged (the early, changing versions of OLE were a nightmare, they broke schedules, they broke marriages and they broke people) but still valid. I have been out since '96 so I don't know if it still goes on. I would add that I personally think that the conspiracy theories are tosh and that businesses are *supposed* to compete but people don't like it when they win. Most businesses play as close to the rules as they can and sometimes they step over the mark. In the case of the Netscape thing, MS was badly frightened and felt it was fighting for its life, it was so far behind. I don't think that big monopolies are a good thing, but the nature of the economics of scale in software tends to produce them and we need new law which we haven't got (neither in the US nor elsewhere). Enough. I'm concerned that this is a non-ABC thread so I'll stop here and only reply further off-line, but I thought I should reply to this lest I be seen as an MS PR bod (which I am not!). Laurie - Original Message - From: Buddha Buck [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip One thing I hear from your comment is that the MS Apps folks had access to pre-release API's to base their apps on. snip Which meant that the MS App folks got a head-start on development on the new versions snip - Original Message - From: Gary J Sibio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:01 AM Subject: Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically I'm responding tomore than just your post here so not everything here applies to what you wrote. At 11:49 PM 4/14/02 +0100, you wrote: You seemed to miss the point. I *was* in MS. Which part of MS were you in? 1) I did miss your point that you worked for MS. 2) You were speaking of interfaces; I was speaking of API calls. 3) Someone asked about evidence 3a) the Justice Department suit. They recommended splitting up Microsoft because they were able to use code in the operating system to their benefit which was not generally made available to other developers. 3b) Anybody who writes code for Windows knows that there are undocumented API calls because they have been uncovered by individuals who then spread the word about them via the Internet, books or journals. While Microsoft recommends against their use because they can be changed without notice. Of couse that does not apply to MS who knows exactly how and when these changes will take place. 4) Someone griped that this is an ABC group and not a MS-bashing group which, to a point, is a valid issue and this is the last I intend to post on this topic. However, it is also for people who write ABC software - if it wasn't for the software, ABC would be pretty useless, wouldn't it - and have to deal with the fact that MS does have its little tricks. The upshot is, if you like the way MS operates, that's your business but don't try to convince me they deal evenhandedly with third-party developers. I've been screwed over by them too often to buy it. Unfortunately, market realities demand that MS has to be dealt with. Gary J. Sibio To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically
FWIW Muse does not use any secret, or undocumented parts of the Windows interface. (During my time in the Windows Systems group in MS I never came across any interfaces that were intended to be secret. What I did find were places where an app had been developed to an early-version interface that we in Windows had thought better of and replaced in the released product by something that worked better. Meanwhile the guys in the apps group didn't feel much like rewriting *their* stuff just because we were too stupid to have all our second thoughts first. So the thing would be left in but undocumented). Of course, there may have been secrets that I wasn't told (almost by definition of secret). L. - Original Message - From: John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 3:58 AM Subject: Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically Rick writes: | Laurie (ukonline) wrote: | | No, sorry - no Linux version. | | (You mean Linux doesn't have a Windows emulation subsystem!!) | | Shudder!!! (To the backdrop of loud wailing and gnashing of teeth!!) ;-) Well, actually, it does have several. Wine and Lindows come to mind. They both do have limitations, though, related to the fact that Windows' inner workings are secret. There are Microsoft products that use undocumented parts of the OS, and it's real hard to do a proper emulation of things that you aren't permitted to know anything about. One of the linux news stories lately has been Microsoft's attempt to squash Lindows by burying them with legal costs. MS claims that Lindows is a trademark infringement. Supposedly it is similar enough to Windows to cause confusion on the part of their customers. This has, naturally, led to a lot of humor. Suggestions that it's true; MS's customers generally aren't smart enough to tell the difference. And Microsoft is also filing suit against several major real estate firms for selling houses that contain windows not licensed by Microsoft. That sort of thing. There's also a cute followup suit from the BE OS people, claiming that Windows ME infringes their name. After all, ME differs in only one letter from BE. They point to the Lindows suit as evidence that Microsoft itself agrees with the principle. There's some strange humor in these circles ... To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically
Laurie write: | FWIW Muse does not use any secret, or undocumented parts of the Windows | interface. | | (During my time in the Windows Systems group in MS I never came across any | interfaces that were intended to be secret. What I did find were places | where an app had been developed to an early-version interface that we in | Windows had thought better of and replaced in the released product by | something that worked better. Meanwhile the guys in the apps group didn't | feel much like rewriting *their* stuff just because we were too stupid to | have all our second thoughts first. So the thing would be left in but | undocumented). Of course, there may have been secrets that I wasn't told | (almost by definition of secret). Yeah; in my experience this is the usual origin of such secrets. There are lots of conspiracy theories, and probably a few of them are valid. But this sort of organizational chaos is probably much more common. Never attribute to malice ... This isn't much consolation for a software developer, of course. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically
At 10:38 AM 4/14/02 +0100, you wrote: (During my time in the Windows Systems group in MS I never came across any interfaces that were intended to be secret. What I Microsoft keeps the secret stuff for itself. Most programmers (that is, the ones that don't work for MSFT) don't know about them because they are secret. This gives MSFT a distinct advantage and why MSFT should have been split up. Gary J. Sibio To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically
Ulf Bro wrote: Abc2ps gives a very nice looking sheet which can afterwards become converted to pdf with ps2pdf. I have noticed that this results in relatively small files suitable for emailing to the other band members who can print them out even if they for some reason still happen to have Windows on their computers. :-) -- :-) Hey, I am only scratching at this subject. I am a bum musician. But 12 months ago I moved from NoteWorthy Composer under Windows to abc under Linux and there is no way I'm going back. Even I can recognise elegance when I see it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ! -- Joe Mc Cool C.Eng, SMIEEE Tangent Computer Research BT71 7LN (www.tangent-research.com) voice:(44)2837-548074fax:(44)-870-0520185 The more you say the less the better. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically
No, sorry - no Linux version. (You mean Linux doesn't have a Windows emulation subsystem!!) L. - Original Message - From: Ulf Bro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically Am Samstag, 13. April 2002 01:05 schrieb Laurie (ukonline): Nice advert. :-) the USA. I suppose while we're doing adverts I should add how it can also translate ABC into guitar tablature (or mandolin, balalaika bouzouki etc). I have mentioned exactly this to the co-mando (mandoline players' email list). You haven't written a Linux version of Muse, have you? Ulf To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically
Rick writes: | Laurie (ukonline) wrote: | | No, sorry - no Linux version. | | (You mean Linux doesn't have a Windows emulation subsystem!!) | | Shudder!!! (To the backdrop of loud wailing and gnashing of teeth!!) ;-) Well, actually, it does have several. Wine and Lindows come to mind. They both do have limitations, though, related to the fact that Windows' inner workings are secret. There are Microsoft products that use undocumented parts of the OS, and it's real hard to do a proper emulation of things that you aren't permitted to know anything about. One of the linux news stories lately has been Microsoft's attempt to squash Lindows by burying them with legal costs. MS claims that Lindows is a trademark infringement. Supposedly it is similar enough to Windows to cause confusion on the part of their customers. This has, naturally, led to a lot of humor. Suggestions that it's true; MS's customers generally aren't smart enough to tell the difference. And Microsoft is also filing suit against several major real estate firms for selling houses that contain windows not licensed by Microsoft. That sort of thing. There's also a cute followup suit from the BE OS people, claiming that Windows ME infringes their name. After all, ME differs in only one letter from BE. They point to the Lindows suit as evidence that Microsoft itself agrees with the principle. There's some strange humor in these circles ... To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically
From: Doug Rogers/Yowza Software [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:00:09 -0700 I must say that after reading about the limitations, or seeing some of the solutions ( such as: ^f-|f-|f-|_g-|g-|^^e-|e-|^f ), well, it's a real treat to simply work with a real, graphical score, and use a couple of mouse clicks to put in ties, alternate endings, text in different fonts, chords, a huge vocabulary of different symbols, etc. On the other hand, it's also a real treat to be able to typeset a simple tune (such as the tunes my morris dance teams use) in only about twice as long as it takes to play it through once, to have the source code for the typeset music take up only about 300-400 bytes, and to be able to email the source code to anybody, regardless of what kind of computer they own, and have them be able to generate an identical score in a matter of seconds. WYSIWYGs are certainly more intuitive, but ABC handles all of the examples you mentioned, and I never have to take my hands off the keyboard. I agree that the learning curve is quicker for graphical programs, and that you have to remember a lot more when using ABC. However, I've never encountered a mouse-based typesetting program that can typeset music faster than I can write it out by hand. I can typeset music using ABCs at over four times the speed I can write it by hand. If you'd like some stats on a more complex piece, my ABC transcription for two violins of the Bach Little Fugue in G Minor took a couple of hours to code (less time than it took me to write 1/4 of the piece out by hand), and is just over 4k. Once the two-violin version was finished, transcribing it for violin viola took only about ten minutes. The first few seconds were spent changing the clef for the second instrument, and the rest of the time was spent deciding which of the passages would sound better in a different octave. Jeff Bigler To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically
Hi Doug, Interesting, I was just thinking about the same thing over the weekend. I've put quite a few hours of time over the last four years into 5 Line Skink, and I asked myself whether it was worth continuing, given the high quality of other packages out there. I came to a slightly different conclusion than you, based on, I think, slightly different requirements. I'm a folk musician, and I play fiddle, cittern, mandolin and guitar. On any given evening that I play, I might end up playing a couple of hundred tunes from memory. I use abc more as a machine-readable tunebook than as a way to create calligraphic-quality scores. I might search for a set of three or four tunes to print out as a set to give out at a session so others can learn them, and I fairly frequently enter tunes, either because I got a much-photocopied almost illegible piece of paper or in order to record something I learned by ear. For me, then, being able to quickly scroll through a list of tunes, being able to use abc as a sort of free-form database (show me all the jigs in G Dorian), and being able to spend only ten minutes to get a recognizable bare-bones version of a tune so I don't forget it, is more important than the graphical interface. I think that software like yours which can import abc is also important, because it allows people who want to add the advanced layout features to the score to do that, while preserving the collective time and effort invested in recording the huge body of music currently in abc. In other words, I agree, the graphical music handling package has an important place, but I concluded that the package that handles tunebooks as a quick reference for players like me is also important. I don't believe that 5 Line Skink will ever compete with Sibelius or Finale, but neither do I expect O'Neill's Music of Ireland to be available in native Finale format. My two cents wil Doug Rogers/Yowza Software wrote: Dear ABCer's: Over the past few years several fans of ABC notation urged me to add the ability to import and export ABC to my notation software ( MusEdit, http://www.musedit.com ) and I did that about six months ago. Since then I've been monitoring the ABC list for new developments in this language. There are lots of proposed changes, and once they settle down I'll be adding the new standards to my software (all updates to MusEdit are free to folks who purchase the program). But I feel a need to comment on ABC vs. graphical interfaces... I know that the big advantage of ABC is that it is text-based and therefore readable by anyone, and by a lot of software, and it's also platform independent. But it sure is nice to use software which is graphics based for something which is as inherently graphical as music notation. A good looking musical score can be as pretty as a calligraphic medieval manuscript, in my opinion. And although, for example, MusEdit is a Windows program, it can (like other notation software I suppose) create very nice looking .png (portable network graphics) images which are cross-platform in the sense that they can be viewed on Linux, Mac, and PC's, et al. I've been reading for the past months about whether or not ABC can handle slides, slash chords, alternate endings, etc. and then reading about how some of these features are encoded into the language... I must say that after reading about the limitations, or seeing some of the solutions ( such as: ^f-|f-|f-|_g-|g-|^^e-|e-|^f ), well, it's a real treat to simply work with a real, graphical score, and use a couple of mouse clicks to put in ties, alternate endings, text in different fonts, chords, a huge vocabulary of different symbols, etc. Maybe most ABC people do edit their scores with a graphical editor, but I guess I'm writing this to remind those who don't that for a pretty small investment (less than $100 for MusEdit and several other notation packages) you can have the ease and pleasure of working in the more natural graphical way with your music. And when you need to you can export / import the music as ABC. It's sad to see how the nice aesthetic features of a score get stripped away when you export and then reimport a score through the ABC language (it's like turning that beautiful medieval manuscript into a few paragraphs of text in plain courier font), but at least you don't have to restrict yourself to such bare-bones music all the time if you have your own graphical editor. Just a reminder / suggestion... Doug Rogers Yowza Software http://www.musedit.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically
Nice advert. I guess I should remind people that Muse is a graphical music editor that imports and exports ABC and costs only £20 which is around $35 for those in the USA. I suppose while we're doing adverts I should add how it can also translate ABC into guitar tablature (or mandolin, balalaika bouzouki etc). Plays, prints, is very easy to use, has a comprehensive help file, can write scores with up to 8 parallel parts (V: etc in ABC) which you can arrange either one or two per staff. Supports the four clefs (good for violas, trombones etc) Transposes (good for saxophones, singers etc.), supports guitar chords played above a capo, can handle any tuning when generating guitar tablature (or generating 5-line notation from tablature), gives you 30 days free trial and some function (such as displaying ABC on the screen as a 5-line score) permanently free, is a small, quick download (written in C, shunning MFC etc to avoid bloat), fast screen drawing (written in C not Java), I could go on, but I guess I already have been. Apologies for boring those of you who knew all this already. Laurie - Original Message - From: Doug Rogers/Yowza Software [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:00 PM Subject: [abcusers] The virtues of handling music graphically ... I guess I'm writing this to remind those who don't that for a pretty small investment (less than $100 for MusEdit and several other notation packages) ... To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
