Re: [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some questions

[Bill Prince]

I have been reading rumors about Tesla switching their vehicles to a 
48VDC system for lights and accessories, etc. If they're doing that, I 
can see lead acid losing out, especially with the size, weight, and life 
expectancy issues.



bp


On 9/5/2023 11:17 AM, Robert wrote:
Lead acid is still the go to for combustion vehicles and low 
temperatures without grid to heat.  That might change but for now they 
is still plenty of market.   That said, when the vendors for LFP 
decide to change the BMSs to do what is needed and the lower temp 
chemistries are worked out, yes, lead acid will go away.   If lithium 
Titanate becomes economical that will destroy lead acid...


On 9/5/23 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I have had little lithium experience to date but I think the answer 
to all of your questions is YES.
The solar guys have been quoting deals like this: 305ah 3.2 Grade B 
cell ($89) x 32 = $2,848 for 31kwh, 610ah, 51.2v 16s2p configuration 
for a 48v system
That is 9 cents per watt hour.  Half the cost of lead acid, will do 
many more cycles.  Much lighter.  Much smaller.  I think that you 
should sell your stock in the lead acid battery factories.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* Brough Turner - netBlazr
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 5, 2023 5:38 AM
*To:* Chuck McCown via AF
*Cc:* Brough Turner
*Subject:* [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some 
questions
I understand LiPoFe is preferable to Li-ion (longer life, less chance 
of fire).  Is this correct?


Can the BMS compensate for a for lead-acid UPS's charging profile?
Is there a battery with a BMS that can be monitored via a network 
connection.
Any recommendations for where to buy batteries in pallet-level 
quantities?


Thanks,
Brough


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Re: [AFMUG] AC voltage alarm thresholds

[dmmoffett]

I appreciate the input, thank you!

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2023 7:30 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AC voltage alarm thresholds

 

265V is a common top voltage threshold, but you'll need to look at the 
equipment specs. 

 

The US grid is specified to produce 120/240V +-5%.  So 240 could be up to 254V 
and still be in spec. (240V+12V)

 

Equipment is supposed to accept at least +-10%, so up to 264V.  (240V+24V).

 

Personally I'd set the threshold at at least 255V.

 

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023, 4:09 AM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:

Do any of you smart guys know how far out of whack does AC voltage have to be 
to cause trouble? 

 

We have an NMS monitoring rectifier input voltage and it’s current alarm 
threshold is 250V.  Occasionally that goes off and everyone ignores it.  I’d 
like to set an alarm threshold where we should actually be alarmed about it.  

 

The Vertiv rectifier spec sheets claim we get full efficiency up to 300VAC, and 
the alarm threshold in their default config is 326V.   So I’m not so concerned 
about those.  There’s probably other stuff on fire before the rectifier gives a 
hoot, but the other stuff might matter.  We usually have an air conditioner 
separate from the rectifier, and occasionally in places there’s a UPS with 
something on it that can’t run on DC.  

 

-Adam

 

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Re: [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some questions

[Mathew Howard]

I'm not sure if the life or risk of fire is significantly different or not
with LiFePo4 vs Li-ion, but they're more suitable for a lead acid
replacement because of the voltage and charging profile, if I understand
correctly.

>From what I've seen, they generally are fine with a lead-acid charging
profile, but you probably want to verify that it doesn't go above ~58v
(assuming this is a 48v system). A higher end BMS might be able to deal
with higher voltages, but I haven't looked into that, so I couldn't say for
sure.

I've ordered from 18650batterystore.com a couple of times. They seem to
have some of the best prices around, but there could be better options for
large quantities.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 9:53 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I have had little lithium experience to date but I think the answer to all
> of your questions is YES.
>
> The solar guys have been quoting deals like this:  305ah 3.2 Grade B cell
> ($89) x 32 = $2,848 for 31kwh, 610ah, 51.2v 16s2p configuration for a 48v
> system
>
> That is 9 cents per watt hour.  Half the cost of lead acid, will do many
> more cycles.  Much lighter.  Much smaller.  I think that you should sell
> your stock in the lead acid battery factories.
>
> Best Regards,
> Chuck McCown
>
> McCown Technology Corporation
> 8401 N Commerce Dr
> Lake Point, Utah 84074
> 801-250-9503 Office
> 435-830-4306 Cell
> www.mccowntech.com
> www.microtrench.pro
> www.terabitnetworks.com
>
> *From:* Brough Turner - netBlazr
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 5, 2023 5:38 AM
> *To:* Chuck McCown via AF
> *Cc:* Brough Turner
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some
> questions
>
> I understand LiPoFe is preferable to Li-ion (longer life, less chance of
> fire).  Is this correct?
>
> Can the BMS compensate for a for lead-acid UPS's charging profile?
>
> Is there a battery with a BMS that can be monitored via a network
> connection.
>
> Any recommendations for where to buy batteries in pallet-level quantities?
>
> Thanks,
> Brough
>
> --
> --
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>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some questions

[TJ Trout]

Do you really need a ups? What's the use case?

I understand LiPoFe is preferable to Li-ion (longer life, less chance of
> fire).  Is this correct? *Yes*
>
> Can the BMS compensate for a for lead-acid UPS's charging profile? *No,
> but most lifepo4 16s will be similar to vlra voltages, ideally you want to
> adjust charger output to compensate*
>
> Is there a battery with a BMS that can be monitored via a network
> connection. *maybe, usually would be monitored by your inverter, etc, not
> necessarily needed *
>
> Any recommendations for where to buy batteries in pallet-level quantities?
> *batteryhookup*
>
>
>
On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 11:18 AM Robert  wrote:

> Lead acid is still the go to for combustion vehicles and low temperatures
> without grid to heat.  That might change but for now they is still plenty
> of market.   That said, when the vendors for LFP decide to change the BMSs
> to do what is needed and the lower temp chemistries are worked out, yes,
> lead acid will go away.   If lithium Titanate becomes economical that will
> destroy lead acid...
>
> On 9/5/23 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> I have had little lithium experience to date but I think the answer to all
> of your questions is YES.
>
> The solar guys have been quoting deals like this:  305ah 3.2 Grade B cell
> ($89) x 32 = $2,848 for 31kwh, 610ah, 51.2v 16s2p configuration for a 48v
> system
>
> That is 9 cents per watt hour.  Half the cost of lead acid, will do many
> more cycles.  Much lighter.  Much smaller.  I think that you should sell
> your stock in the lead acid battery factories.
>
> Best Regards,
> Chuck McCown
>
> McCown Technology Corporation
> 8401 N Commerce Dr
> Lake Point, Utah 84074
> 801-250-9503 Office
> 435-830-4306 Cell
> www.mccowntech.com
> www.microtrench.pro
> www.terabitnetworks.com
>
> *From:* Brough Turner - netBlazr
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 5, 2023 5:38 AM
> *To:* Chuck McCown via AF
> *Cc:* Brough Turner
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some
> questions
>
> I understand LiPoFe is preferable to Li-ion (longer life, less chance of
> fire).  Is this correct?
>
> Can the BMS compensate for a for lead-acid UPS's charging profile?
>
> Is there a battery with a BMS that can be monitored via a network
> connection.
>
> Any recommendations for where to buy batteries in pallet-level quantities?
>
> Thanks,
> Brough
>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
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>


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Thank you,

TJ Trout
Volt Broadband
209.480.3122 Cell
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Re: [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some questions

[Robert]

Lead acid is still the go to for combustion vehicles and low 
temperatures without grid to heat.  That might change but for now they 
is still plenty of market.   That said, when the vendors for LFP decide 
to change the BMSs to do what is needed and the lower temp chemistries 
are worked out, yes, lead acid will go away.   If lithium Titanate 
becomes economical that will destroy lead acid...


On 9/5/23 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I have had little lithium experience to date but I think the answer to 
all of your questions is YES.
The solar guys have been quoting deals like this: 305ah 3.2 Grade B 
cell ($89) x 32 = $2,848 for 31kwh, 610ah, 51.2v 16s2p configuration 
for a 48v system
That is 9 cents per watt hour.  Half the cost of lead acid, will do 
many more cycles.  Much lighter.  Much smaller.  I think that you 
should sell your stock in the lead acid battery factories.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* Brough Turner - netBlazr
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 5, 2023 5:38 AM
*To:* Chuck McCown via AF
*Cc:* Brough Turner
*Subject:* [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some 
questions
I understand LiPoFe is preferable to Li-ion (longer life, less chance 
of fire).  Is this correct?


Can the BMS compensate for a for lead-acid UPS's charging profile?
Is there a battery with a BMS that can be monitored via a network 
connection.

Any recommendations for where to buy batteries in pallet-level quantities?

Thanks,
Brough


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AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some questions

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I have had little lithium experience to date but I think the answer to all of 
your questions is YES.  

The solar guys have been quoting deals like this:  305ah 3.2 Grade B cell ($89) 
x 32 = $2,848 for 31kwh, 610ah, 51.2v 16s2p configuration for a 48v system

That is 9 cents per watt hour.  Half the cost of lead acid, will do many more 
cycles.  Much lighter.  Much smaller.  I think that you should sell your stock 
in the lead acid battery factories.  

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: Brough Turner - netBlazr 
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2023 5:38 AM
To: Chuck McCown via AF 
Cc: Brough Turner 
Subject: [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some questions

I understand LiPoFe is preferable to Li-ion (longer life, less chance of fire). 
 Is this correct?



Can the BMS compensate for a for lead-acid UPS's charging profile?

Is there a battery with a BMS that can be monitored via a network connection.

Any recommendations for where to buy batteries in pallet-level quantities?


Thanks,
Brough



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[AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some questions

[Brough Turner - netBlazr]

I understand LiPoFe is preferable to Li-ion (longer life, less chance of fire). 
 Is this correct?

Can the BMS compensate for a for lead-acid UPS's charging profile?

Is there a battery with a BMS that can be monitored via a network connection.

Any recommendations for where to buy batteries in pallet-level quantities?

Thanks,
Brough
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Re: [AFMUG] AC voltage alarm thresholds

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

265V is a common top voltage threshold, but you'll need to look at the
equipment specs.

The US grid is specified to produce 120/240V +-5%.  So 240 could be up to
254V and still be in spec. (240V+12V)

Equipment is supposed to accept at least +-10%, so up to 264V.  (240V+24V).

Personally I'd set the threshold at at least 255V.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023, 4:09 AM  wrote:

> Do any of you smart guys know how far out of whack does AC voltage have to
> be to cause trouble?
>
>
>
> We have an NMS monitoring rectifier input voltage and it’s current alarm
> threshold is 250V.  Occasionally that goes off and everyone ignores it.
> I’d like to set an alarm threshold where we should actually be alarmed
> about it.
>
>
>
> The Vertiv rectifier spec sheets claim we get full efficiency up to
> 300VAC, and the alarm threshold in their default config is 326V.   So I’m
> not so concerned about those.  There’s probably other stuff on fire before
> the rectifier gives a hoot, but the other stuff might matter.  We usually
> have an air conditioner separate from the rectifier, and occasionally in
> places there’s a UPS with something on it that can’t run on DC.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
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[AFMUG] AC voltage alarm thresholds

[dmmoffett]

Do any of you smart guys know how far out of whack does AC voltage have to
be to cause trouble? 

 

We have an NMS monitoring rectifier input voltage and it's current alarm
threshold is 250V.  Occasionally that goes off and everyone ignores it.  I'd
like to set an alarm threshold where we should actually be alarmed about it.


 

The Vertiv rectifier spec sheets claim we get full efficiency up to 300VAC,
and the alarm threshold in their default config is 326V.   So I'm not so
concerned about those.  There's probably other stuff on fire before the
rectifier gives a hoot, but the other stuff might matter.  We usually have
an air conditioner separate from the rectifier, and occasionally in places
there's a UPS with something on it that can't run on DC.  

 

-Adam

 

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