Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Mike Hammett]

I haven't checked on the grid-tie portion, but in many areas of the country, 
the only code or permits that apply to agricultural parcels pertain to the 
septic system. Anything up to the meter is fair game. Around here, it's hte 
electric company that touches the meter anyway. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Bill Prince" <part15...@gmail.com> 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 9:52:23 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax 

I doubt there's anywhere in the US where a permit/electrician is not required 
for a grid-tie system. Line workers would be in serious risk if it's not done 
per code. That said, up to the point of actually connecting the system to your 
utility it's not rocket science. 

bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> 
On 10/15/2015 1:00 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: 



That's assuming you need an electrician or a permit. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" <li...@packetflux.com> 
To: "af" <af@afmug.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:38:56 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax 


Ummm. You can't do a grid tie without one in almost every area. The utility 
won't install a net metering meter without one. 
On Oct 14, 2015 8:37 PM, "Seth Mattinen" < se...@rollernet.us > wrote: 


On 10/14/15 7:51 PM, Mathew Howard wrote: 


I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in 
install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll 
see once they actually start selling something. 




I guess just don't get caught installing these in an area where you need an 
electrician and a permit. That's often the major cost factor, not the 
components. 

~Seth 

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[D. Ryan Spott]

Can you install these 'under the direction of a licensed electrician?'

Can you install all but the wiring and then bring in the electrician for 
the final hook-up?


Can you find a local electrician and partner with them?

Makin' money is makin' money.

ryan

On 10/14/15 8:37 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:

On 10/14/15 7:51 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:

I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in
install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll
see once they actually start selling something.



I guess just don't get caught installing these in an area where you 
need an electrician and a permit. That's often the major cost factor, 
not the components.


~Seth



--
D. Ryan Spott | NGC457, llc
broadband | telco | colo | communities
PO Box 1734 Sultan, WA 98294
425-939-0047

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Lewis Bergman]

Unless it is the dumbest idea ever. Then it's just dumb. I haven't read the
rest of the thread but I see no way they can be disruptive on the price
front. I don't think they have any control over the largest cost factor and
a nice GUI isn't going to cut it.

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 12:46 PM D. Ryan Spott  wrote:

> Can you install these 'under the direction of a licensed electrician?'
>
> Can you install all but the wiring and then bring in the electrician for
> the final hook-up?
>
> Can you find a local electrician and partner with them?
>
> Makin' money is makin' money.
>
> ryan
>
> On 10/14/15 8:37 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
> > On 10/14/15 7:51 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
> >> I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in
> >> install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll
> >> see once they actually start selling something.
> >
> >
> > I guess just don't get caught installing these in an area where you
> > need an electrician and a permit. That's often the major cost factor,
> > not the components.
> >
> > ~Seth
>
>
> --
> D. Ryan Spott | NGC457, llc
> broadband | telco | colo | communities
> PO Box 1734 Sultan, WA 98294
> 425-939-0047
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Harold Bledsoe]

You need a permit in Georgia in most counties. They want to tax you on the
increased value (main reason), and they want to make sure it is installed
to code (roof weight, electrical, etc.).

The powerco here requires an electrician to do the tie in. Also in general
you need a license to do anything more than low voltage. We needed to
schedule an appointment with the powerco to show that the system shuts down
when the power is cut.

Our home owner's insurance policy considers it part of the home since it is
attached and will cover it under the policy after you send the right docs
and pictures.

In summary, in Georgia you really need to have a contractor's license and
have a licensed electrician do the tie in. Maybe it is different state by
state but what state allows AC work without a license?

Hal
On Oct 15, 2015 4:00 AM, "Mike Hammett" <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:

> That's assuming you need an electrician or a permit.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
> --
> *From: *"Forrest Christian (List Account)" <li...@packetflux.com>
> *To: *"af" <af@afmug.com>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:38:56 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
> Ummm.   You can't do a grid tie without one in almost every area.   The
> utility won't install a net metering meter without one.
> On Oct 14, 2015 8:37 PM, "Seth Mattinen" <se...@rollernet.us> wrote:
>
>> On 10/14/15 7:51 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>
>>> I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in
>>> install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll
>>> see once they actually start selling something.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I guess just don't get caught installing these in an area where you need
>> an electrician and a permit. That's often the major cost factor, not the
>> components.
>>
>> ~Seth
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Rory Conaway]

The best batteries for this type of situation are the flow batteries.  Cost is 
still an issue but there is a huge amount of research going into them including 
a new alkaline flow battery.  They don’t degrade over multiple of cycles like a 
lithium battery.  The current vanadium ones are too expensive.  So unless the 
Tesla battery drops in price by 70%, I don’t see them being a commercial 
alternative if you have spend several thousand dollars replacing them in 5-8 
years.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

The "best" battery may be somewhat subjective. I like the Tesla option, but 
it's not shipping yet. It would not work with the UBNT setup, as the battery 
uses 400+ volts; so it's more of the DC-to-inverter style of system.

I think I prefer the big DC systems, as it allows the use of much smaller gauge 
wires going from the the array to the inverter.

I also prefer the higher voltages that are common in Europe now (1000 volts). 
Most areas in the US are 600 volts maximum (there are very few exceptions now). 
Going from 600 VDC to 1000 VDC can reduce the overall cost of the system by 
almost 50%.



bp

<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>


On 10/14/2015 7:05 PM, Sterling Jacobson wrote:
What’s the best battery system currently?

I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring them in 
48 volt to the inverter.

Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the array and 
using it at the house on inverter?

Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar as 
possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.

Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?

Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

$1 per watt for DIY systems.
That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3 times 
that or more.

From: Sterling Jacobson<mailto:sterl...@avative.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a battery 
bank?

I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
To: af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something like 
that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price will be.
It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown 
<ch...@wbmfg.com<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
$/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost 
effective method.

Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all kinds of 
other things to the local building inspection authority here to do a grid tie 
system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels and disconnects 
that are required here.

From: Craig Schmaderer<mailto:cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.  
https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Eric Kuhnke]

Liquid metal / flow batteries are not really commercially available, unless
you want a "trial" plant for utility scale that is a multiple of 2, 4 or
more 20 foot sized ISO cargo containers...

It's not something you can buy with an AMEX card and have shipped to your
business.

The best commercially available batteries are the Aquion liquid salt
batteries, which are claimed to have an 8x greater number of cycle lifespan
than the best AGM lead acid. They are, however, quite bulky and heavy.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 11:20 PM, Rory Conaway <r...@triadwireless.net>
wrote:

> The best batteries for this type of situation are the flow batteries.
> Cost is still an issue but there is a huge amount of research going into
> them including a new alkaline flow battery.  They don’t degrade over
> multiple of cycles like a lithium battery.  The current vanadium ones are
> too expensive.  So unless the Tesla battery drops in price by 70%, I don’t
> see them being a commercial alternative if you have spend several thousand
> dollars replacing them in 5-8 years.
>
>
>
> Rory
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> The "best" battery may be somewhat subjective. I like the Tesla option,
> but it's not shipping yet. It would not work with the UBNT setup, as the
> battery uses 400+ volts; so it's more of the DC-to-inverter style of system.
>
> I think I prefer the big DC systems, as it allows the use of much smaller
> gauge wires going from the the array to the inverter.
>
> I also prefer the higher voltages that are common in Europe now (1000
> volts). Most areas in the US are 600 volts maximum (there are very few
> exceptions now). Going from 600 VDC to 1000 VDC can reduce the overall cost
> of the system by almost 50%.
>
>
> bp
>
> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>
>
>
>
> On 10/14/2015 7:05 PM, Sterling Jacobson wrote:
>
> What’s the best battery system currently?
>
>
>
> I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring them
> in 48 volt to the inverter.
>
>
>
> Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the array
> and using it at the house on inverter?
>
>
>
> Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar as
> possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.
>
>
>
> Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?
>
>
>
> Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> $1 per watt for DIY systems.
>
> That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3
> times that or more.
>
>
>
> *From:* Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.net>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.
>
>
>
> I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.
>
>
>
> But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a
> battery bank?
>
>
>
> I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.
>
>
>
> I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
> *To:* af <af@afmug.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something
> like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price
> will be.
>
> It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
> $/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
>
> Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost
> effective method.
>
>
>
> Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all
> kinds of other things to the local building inspection authority here to do
> a grid tie system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels
> and disconnects that are required here.
>
>
>
> *From:* Craig Schmaderer <cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.
> https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Mike Hammett]

That's assuming you need an electrician or a permit. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" <li...@packetflux.com> 
To: "af" <af@afmug.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:38:56 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax 


Ummm. You can't do a grid tie without one in almost every area. The utility 
won't install a net metering meter without one. 
On Oct 14, 2015 8:37 PM, "Seth Mattinen" < se...@rollernet.us > wrote: 


On 10/14/15 7:51 PM, Mathew Howard wrote: 


I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in 
install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll 
see once they actually start selling something. 




I guess just don't get caught installing these in an area where you need an 
electrician and a permit. That's often the major cost factor, not the 
components. 

~Seth 

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[chuck]

The meters here will charge you for power you put back into the grid unless 
the power company sets/replaces them with meters that measure the direction. 
Sneaky way to force you to get a grid tie agreement with them.


-Original Message- 
From: Seth Mattinen

Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

On 10/14/15 7:51 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:

I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in
install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll
see once they actually start selling something.



I guess just don't get caught installing these in an area where you need
an electrician and a permit. That's often the major cost factor, not the
components.

~Seth 

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Paul McCall]

Interesting  concept. So, you would just use a smaller # of batteries and 
expect the solar array to run your household “live” x% of the time, and if 
doesn’t’ have enough, then it relies on utility power?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:23 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I have a grid tie inverter.  Reduces my bill.  A back up generator I much 
cheaper that batts.

From: Sterling Jacobson<mailto:sterl...@avative.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:05 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

What’s the best battery system currently?

I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring them in 
48 volt to the inverter.

Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the array and 
using it at the house on inverter?

Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar as 
possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.

Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?

Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

$1 per watt for DIY systems.
That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3 times 
that or more.

From: Sterling Jacobson<mailto:sterl...@avative.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a battery 
bank?

I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
To: af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something like 
that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price will be.
It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown 
<ch...@wbmfg.com<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
$/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost 
effective method.

Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all kinds of 
other things to the local building inspection authority here to do a grid tie 
system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels and disconnects 
that are required here.

From: Craig Schmaderer<mailto:cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.  
https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Bill Prince]

There is a company out here that is selling a relatively small 
(SLA-type) battery system for use with grid-tie solar. It has 
connections between the solar panels/inverter/grid. It "fools" the 
inverter into believing that the grid is still on by disconnecting the 
grid, and feeding a "pseudo grid" into the grid side of the inverter. If 
the sun is up, it leaves the panels connected as the primary source of 
power. If the sun is not up, it feeds battery to the inverter as "pseudo 
battery".


It's still several thousand dollars. I don't know that it makes sense 
from an economic standpoint, but it's less expensive than a full-battery 
type system.


bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

On 10/15/2015 8:33 AM, Paul McCall wrote:


Interesting  concept. So, you would just use a smaller # of batteries 
and expect the solar array to run your household “live” x% of the 
time, and if doesn’t’ have enough, then it relies on utility power?


*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:23 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I have a grid tie inverter.  Reduces my bill.  A back up generator I 
much cheaper that batts.


*From:*Sterling Jacobson <mailto:sterl...@avative.net>

*Sent:*Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:05 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

What’s the best battery system currently?

I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring 
them in 48 volt to the inverter.


Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the 
array and using it at the house on inverter?


Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar 
as possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.


Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?

Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

$1 per watt for DIY systems.

That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3 
times that or more.


*From:*Sterling Jacobson <mailto:sterl...@avative.net>

*Sent:*Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a 
battery bank?


I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
*To:* af <af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or 
something like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what 
the real price will be.


It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com 
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:


$/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not
discussed.

Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the
most cost effective method.

Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and
all kinds of other things to the local building inspection
authority here to do a grid tie system.  Not sure this would fly. 
Did not see all the labels and disconnects that are required here.


*From:*Craig Schmaderer <mailto:cr...@skywaveconnect.com>

*Sent:*Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Subject:*[AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their
website. https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Bill Prince]

Batteries are hard. Battery technology moves at about 1/20th the pace of 
most everything else. Maybe slower.


bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

On 10/15/2015 8:20 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Wonder how hard it is to make a flow battery.  ...
*From:* Eric Kuhnke <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, October 15, 2015 1:10 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
Liquid metal / flow batteries are not really commercially available, 
unless you want a "trial" plant for utility scale that is a multiple 
of 2, 4 or more 20 foot sized ISO cargo containers...


It's not something you can buy with an AMEX card and have shipped to 
your business.


The best commercially available batteries are the Aquion liquid salt 
batteries, which are claimed to have an 8x greater number of cycle 
lifespan than the best AGM lead acid. They are, however, quite bulky 
and heavy.
On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 11:20 PM, Rory Conaway <r...@triadwireless.net 
<mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>> wrote:


The best batteries for this type of situation are the flow
batteries. Cost is still an issue but there is a huge amount of
research going into them including a new alkaline flow battery. 
They don’t degrade over multiple of cycles like a lithium

battery.  The current vanadium ones are too expensive.  So unless
the Tesla battery drops in price by 70%, I don’t see them being a
commercial alternative if you have spend several thousand dollars
replacing them in 5-8 years.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

The "best" battery may be somewhat subjective. I like the Tesla
option, but it's not shipping yet. It would not work with the UBNT
setup, as the battery uses 400+ volts; so it's more of the
DC-to-inverter style of system.

I think I prefer the big DC systems, as it allows the use of much
smaller gauge wires going from the the array to the inverter.

I also prefer the higher voltages that are common in Europe now
(1000 volts). Most areas in the US are 600 volts maximum (there
are very few exceptions now). Going from 600 VDC to 1000 VDC can
reduce the overall cost of the system by almost 50%.


bp

<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

  


On 10/14/2015 7:05 PM, Sterling Jacobson wrote:

What’s the best battery system currently?

I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and
wiring them in 48 volt to the inverter.

Is there a better method than that for storing solar power
from the array and using it at the house on inverter?

Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from
the solar as possible to power the house, then leaned on mains
if it wasn’t enough.

Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?

Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck
McCown
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM


    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

$1 per watt for DIY systems.

That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to
cost you 3 times that or more.

*From:*Sterling Jacobson <mailto:sterl...@avative.net>

*Sent:*Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM

        *To:*af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself
installed.

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running
DC to a battery bank?

I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent
inverter.

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew
Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
        *To:* af <af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or
something like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere
near what the real price will be.

It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than
cheap.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

   

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Mathew Howard]

You don't use batteries at all, you just sell excess power you generate
back to the grid during the day, and buy what you need from the utility at
night.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Paul McCall <pa...@pdmnet.net> wrote:

> Interesting  concept. So, you would just use a smaller # of batteries and
> expect the solar array to run your household “live” x% of the time, and if
> doesn’t’ have enough, then it relies on utility power?
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:23 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> I have a grid tie inverter.  Reduces my bill.  A back up generator I much
> cheaper that batts.
>
>
>
> *From:* Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.net>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:05 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> What’s the best battery system currently?
>
>
>
> I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring them
> in 48 volt to the inverter.
>
>
>
> Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the array
> and using it at the house on inverter?
>
>
>
> Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar as
> possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.
>
>
>
> Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?
>
>
>
> Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> $1 per watt for DIY systems.
>
> That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3
> times that or more.
>
>
>
> *From:* Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.net>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.
>
>
>
> I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.
>
>
>
> But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a
> battery bank?
>
>
>
> I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.
>
>
>
> I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
> *To:* af <af@afmug.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something
> like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price
> will be.
>
> It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
> $/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
>
> Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost
> effective method.
>
>
>
> Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all
> kinds of other things to the local building inspection authority here to do
> a grid tie system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels
> and disconnects that are required here.
>
>
>
> *From:* Craig Schmaderer <cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.
> https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Mathew Howard]

I wonder if something like that could be designed to get around the
electrician/permit problem. What I'm thinking of, is a small system that
isn't designed to feed anything back into the grid, but instead generate
less than what you're using, store it in some smallish batteries and feed
it back into your house as needed. The whole system could be setup as low
voltage down to the inverter to get around needing an electrician to wire
it, if it was small enough you could even just plug it into an outlet...
but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be legal, and I'm not really sure how you
would stop it from feeding back into the grid.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Paul McCall <pa...@pdmnet.net> wrote:

> Bill, that is kinda what I was thinking.  If the price was not several
> thousand dollars, that might be a good option
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 15, 2015 11:44 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> There is a company out here that is selling a relatively small (SLA-type)
> battery system for use with grid-tie solar. It has connections between the
> solar panels/inverter/grid. It "fools" the inverter into believing that the
> grid is still on by disconnecting the grid, and feeding a "pseudo grid"
> into the grid side of the inverter. If the sun is up, it leaves the panels
> connected as the primary source of power. If the sun is not up, it feeds
> battery to the inverter as "pseudo battery".
>
> It's still several thousand dollars. I don't know that it makes sense from
> an economic standpoint, but it's less expensive than a full-battery type
> system.
>
>
> bp
>
> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>
>
>
>
> On 10/15/2015 8:33 AM, Paul McCall wrote:
>
> Interesting  concept. So, you would just use a smaller # of batteries and
> expect the solar array to run your household “live” x% of the time, and if
> doesn’t’ have enough, then it relies on utility power?
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:23 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> I have a grid tie inverter.  Reduces my bill.  A back up generator I much
> cheaper that batts.
>
>
>
> *From:* Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.net>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:05 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> What’s the best battery system currently?
>
>
>
> I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring them
> in 48 volt to the inverter.
>
>
>
> Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the array
> and using it at the house on inverter?
>
>
>
> Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar as
> possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.
>
>
>
> Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?
>
>
>
> Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> $1 per watt for DIY systems.
>
> That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3
> times that or more.
>
>
>
> *From:* Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.net>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.
>
>
>
> I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.
>
>
>
> But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a
> battery bank?
>
>
>
> I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.
>
>
>
> I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
> *To:* af <af@afmug.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something
> like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price
> will be.
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Paul McCall]

Bill, that is kinda what I was thinking.  If the price was not several thousand 
dollars, that might be a good option

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 11:44 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

There is a company out here that is selling a relatively small (SLA-type) 
battery system for use with grid-tie solar. It has connections between the 
solar panels/inverter/grid. It "fools" the inverter into believing that the 
grid is still on by disconnecting the grid, and feeding a "pseudo grid" into 
the grid side of the inverter. If the sun is up, it leaves the panels connected 
as the primary source of power. If the sun is not up, it feeds battery to the 
inverter as "pseudo battery".

It's still several thousand dollars. I don't know that it makes sense from an 
economic standpoint, but it's less expensive than a full-battery type system.



bp

<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>


On 10/15/2015 8:33 AM, Paul McCall wrote:
Interesting  concept. So, you would just use a smaller # of batteries and 
expect the solar array to run your household “live” x% of the time, and if 
doesn’t’ have enough, then it relies on utility power?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:23 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I have a grid tie inverter.  Reduces my bill.  A back up generator I much 
cheaper that batts.

From: Sterling Jacobson<mailto:sterl...@avative.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:05 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

What’s the best battery system currently?

I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring them in 
48 volt to the inverter.

Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the array and 
using it at the house on inverter?

Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar as 
possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.

Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?

Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

$1 per watt for DIY systems.
That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3 times 
that or more.

From: Sterling Jacobson<mailto:sterl...@avative.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a battery 
bank?

I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
To: af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something like 
that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price will be.
It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown 
<ch...@wbmfg.com<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
$/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost 
effective method.

Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all kinds of 
other things to the local building inspection authority here to do a grid tie 
system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels and disconnects 
that are required here.

From: Craig Schmaderer<mailto:cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.  
https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[chuck]

Wonder how hard it is to make a flow battery.  ...

From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 1:10 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Liquid metal / flow batteries are not really commercially available, unless you 
want a "trial" plant for utility scale that is a multiple of 2, 4 or more 20 
foot sized ISO cargo containers...


It's not something you can buy with an AMEX card and have shipped to your 
business.


The best commercially available batteries are the Aquion liquid salt batteries, 
which are claimed to have an 8x greater number of cycle lifespan than the best 
AGM lead acid. They are, however, quite bulky and heavy. 


On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 11:20 PM, Rory Conaway <r...@triadwireless.net> wrote:

  The best batteries for this type of situation are the flow batteries.  Cost 
is still an issue but there is a huge amount of research going into them 
including a new alkaline flow battery.  They don’t degrade over multiple of 
cycles like a lithium battery.  The current vanadium ones are too expensive.  
So unless the Tesla battery drops in price by 70%, I don’t see them being a 
commercial alternative if you have spend several thousand dollars replacing 
them in 5-8 years.



  Rory



  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
  Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax



  The "best" battery may be somewhat subjective. I like the Tesla option, but 
it's not shipping yet. It would not work with the UBNT setup, as the battery 
uses 400+ volts; so it's more of the DC-to-inverter style of system.

  I think I prefer the big DC systems, as it allows the use of much smaller 
gauge wires going from the the array to the inverter.

  I also prefer the higher voltages that are common in Europe now (1000 volts). 
Most areas in the US are 600 volts maximum (there are very few exceptions now). 
Going from 600 VDC to 1000 VDC can reduce the overall cost of the system by 
almost 50%.




bp<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> On 10/14/2015 7:05 PM, Sterling Jacobson wrote:

What’s the best battery system currently?



I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring them 
in 48 volt to the inverter.



Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the array 
and using it at the house on inverter?



Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar as 
possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.



Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?



Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM


To: af@afmug.com
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax


$1 per watt for DIY systems.

That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3 
times that or more.  



From: Sterling Jacobson 

Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax



Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.



I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.



But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a 
battery bank?



I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.



I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
To: af <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax



I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something 
like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price will 
be.

It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.



On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  $/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.

  Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost 
effective method.  



  Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all 
kinds of other things to the local building inspection authority here to do a 
grid tie system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels and 
disconnects that are required here.  



  From: Craig Schmaderer 

  Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM

      To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax



  Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.  
https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Bill Prince]

I doubt there's anywhere in the US where a permit/electrician is not 
required for a grid-tie system. Line workers would be in serious risk if 
it's not done per code. That said, up to the point of actually 
connecting the system to your utility it's not rocket science.


bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

On 10/15/2015 1:00 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

That's assuming you need an electrician or a permit.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


*From: *"Forrest Christian (List Account)" <li...@packetflux.com>
*To: *"af" <af@afmug.com>
*Sent: *Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:38:56 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Ummm.   You can't do a grid tie without one in almost every area.   
The utility won't install a net metering meter without one.


On Oct 14, 2015 8:37 PM, "Seth Mattinen" <se...@rollernet.us 
<mailto:se...@rollernet.us>> wrote:


On 10/14/15 7:51 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:

I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you
factor in
install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I
guess we'll
see once they actually start selling something.



I guess just don't get caught installing these in an area where
you need an electrician and a permit. That's often the major cost
factor, not the components.

~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

It's called a non grid tie inverter.
On Oct 15, 2015 9:17 AM, "Mathew Howard" <mhoward...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I wonder if something like that could be designed to get around the
> electrician/permit problem. What I'm thinking of, is a small system that
> isn't designed to feed anything back into the grid, but instead generate
> less than what you're using, store it in some smallish batteries and feed
> it back into your house as needed. The whole system could be setup as low
> voltage down to the inverter to get around needing an electrician to wire
> it, if it was small enough you could even just plug it into an outlet...
> but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be legal, and I'm not really sure how you
> would stop it from feeding back into the grid.
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Paul McCall <pa...@pdmnet.net> wrote:
>
>> Bill, that is kinda what I was thinking.  If the price was not several
>> thousand dollars, that might be a good option
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 15, 2015 11:44 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a company out here that is selling a relatively small (SLA-type)
>> battery system for use with grid-tie solar. It has connections between the
>> solar panels/inverter/grid. It "fools" the inverter into believing that the
>> grid is still on by disconnecting the grid, and feeding a "pseudo grid"
>> into the grid side of the inverter. If the sun is up, it leaves the panels
>> connected as the primary source of power. If the sun is not up, it feeds
>> battery to the inverter as "pseudo battery".
>>
>> It's still several thousand dollars. I don't know that it makes sense
>> from an economic standpoint, but it's less expensive than a full-battery
>> type system.
>>
>>
>> bp
>>
>> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/15/2015 8:33 AM, Paul McCall wrote:
>>
>> Interesting  concept. So, you would just use a smaller # of batteries and
>> expect the solar array to run your household “live” x% of the time, and if
>> doesn’t’ have enough, then it relies on utility power?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:23 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a grid tie inverter.  Reduces my bill.  A back up generator I much
>> cheaper that batts.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.net>
>>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:05 PM
>>
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>
>>
>>
>> What’s the best battery system currently?
>>
>>
>>
>> I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring
>> them in 48 volt to the inverter.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the array
>> and using it at the house on inverter?
>>
>>
>>
>> Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar as
>> possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?
>>
>>
>>
>> Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>
>>
>>
>> $1 per watt for DIY systems.
>>
>> That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3
>> times that or more.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.net>
>>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
>>
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.
>>
>>
>>
>> But what’s this price vs. buying p

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Chuck McCown]

$/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost 
effective method.  

Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all kinds of 
other things to the local building inspection authority here to do a grid tie 
system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels and disconnects 
that are required here.  

From: Craig Schmaderer 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.  
https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Mathew Howard]

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something
like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price
will be.

It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> $/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
> Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost
> effective method.
>
> Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all
> kinds of other things to the local building inspection authority here to do
> a grid tie system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels
> and disconnects that are required here.
>
> *From:* Craig Schmaderer <cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
> Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.
> https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Sterling Jacobson]

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a battery 
bank?

I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
To: af <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something like 
that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price will be.
It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown 
<ch...@wbmfg.com<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
$/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost 
effective method.

Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all kinds of 
other things to the local building inspection authority here to do a grid tie 
system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels and disconnects 
that are required here.

From: Craig Schmaderer<mailto:cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.  
https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Ken Hohhof]

They resisted calling it sunBeam?

From: Craig Schmaderer 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 6:25 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.  
https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[That One Guy /sarcasm]

guaranteed not to burst into flame 95% of the time, 81.9% efficiency if
secondary lasers are diffracted onto panels

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> $/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
> Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost
> effective method.
>
> Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all
> kinds of other things to the local building inspection authority here to do
> a grid tie system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels
> and disconnects that are required here.
>
> *From:* Craig Schmaderer <cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
> Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.
> https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/
>



-- 
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Seth Mattinen]

On 10/14/15 7:51 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:

I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in
install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll
see once they actually start selling something.



I guess just don't get caught installing these in an area where you need 
an electrician and a permit. That's often the major cost factor, not the 
components.


~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

There are a lot of inexpensive racking systems that when combined with
micro inverters shrink installation time to next to nothing.

They snap together with perfect alignment,  you bolt the rack to the roof
and attach panels.  It's really not rocket science.

I really wonder how much research was done here
On Oct 14, 2015 8:22 PM, "Bill Prince" <part15...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The play is the cost of the labor. UBNT claims that you can install a
> 9-panel array in 17 minutes. Hard to believe, but I've seen 20-panel arrays
> take a couple of days to install. The difference in labor is immense (if
> true). What's the cost of 2 days labor (probably 2 people)?
>
> I'm not convinced. I might do my own installation up to the point of
> actually connecting the solar system to the grid; so maybe this is not
> relevant.
>
> Around here, the big delta is the cost of permitting/inspections.
>
> bp
> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>
>
>
> On 10/14/2015 8:17 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
>
> I've been at a lot of solar industry shows this year,  and I'm really not
> convinced that there is anything really disruptive here.
>
> I've seen better & faster mounting systems.  Grid tie inverters are a dime
> a dozen.   Solar panels are cheap.What is the play here?
>
> The idea is apparently to provide a plug and play kit of solar to wisps to
> add to their offerings.   I'm not sure how this is going to work with the
> number of hoops you have to jump through to do this in most localities.
> Are the wisps going to hire a licensed electrician to do this and send
> everyone to solar installer classes?
> On Oct 14, 2015 7:51 PM, "Mathew Howard" <mhoward...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in
>> install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll see
>> once they actually start selling something.
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
>> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>>
>>> $1.5 per watt, complete rooftop grid tie system, including micro
>>> inverters,  mounting,  etc.
>>>
>>> I'm a bit out of touch,  but this didn't seem very disruptive to me.
>>> On Oct 14, 2015 6:46 PM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> $1 per watt for DIY systems.
>>>> That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3
>>>> times that or more.
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.net>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a
>>>> battery bank?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
>>>> *To:* af <af@afmug.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something
>>>> like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price
>>>> will be.
>>>>
>>>> It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> $/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
>>>>
>>>> Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most
>>>> cost effective method.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all
>>>> kinds of other things to the local building inspection authority here to do
>>>> a grid tie system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels
>>>> and disconnects that are required here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Craig Schmaderer <cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
>>>>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>>>>
>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their
>>>> website.  https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

Ummm.   You can't do a grid tie without one in almost every area.   The
utility won't install a net metering meter without one.
On Oct 14, 2015 8:37 PM, "Seth Mattinen"  wrote:

> On 10/14/15 7:51 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>
>> I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in
>> install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll
>> see once they actually start selling something.
>>
>
>
> I guess just don't get caught installing these in an area where you need
> an electrician and a permit. That's often the major cost factor, not the
> components.
>
> ~Seth
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Mathew Howard]

Yep, it's not something that anyone can just go and do... there's going to
be a lot of hassle involved with getting these things hooked up.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> Ummm.   You can't do a grid tie without one in almost every area.   The
> utility won't install a net metering meter without one.
> On Oct 14, 2015 8:37 PM, "Seth Mattinen"  wrote:
>
>> On 10/14/15 7:51 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
>>
>>> I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in
>>> install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll
>>> see once they actually start selling something.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I guess just don't get caught installing these in an area where you need
>> an electrician and a permit. That's often the major cost factor, not the
>> components.
>>
>> ~Seth
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Seth Mattinen]

On 10/14/15 8:38 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

Ummm.   You can't do a grid tie without one in almost every area.   The
utility won't install a net metering meter without one.


Yeah that's kinda my point... maybe we're just not disruptive enough to 
see the way around that.


~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Chuck McCown]

$1 per watt for DIY systems.
That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3 times 
that or more.  

From: Sterling Jacobson 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.

 

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

 

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a battery 
bank?

 

I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.

 

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
To: af <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

 

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something like 
that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price will be.

It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.

 

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  $/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.

  Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost 
effective method.  

   

  Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all kinds 
of other things to the local building inspection authority here to do a grid 
tie system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels and 
disconnects that are required here.  

   

  From: Craig Schmaderer 

  Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

   

  Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.  
https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

 

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Sterling Jacobson]

What’s the best battery system currently?

I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring them in 
48 volt to the inverter.

Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the array and 
using it at the house on inverter?

Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar as 
possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.

Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?

Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

$1 per watt for DIY systems.
That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3 times 
that or more.

From: Sterling Jacobson<mailto:sterl...@avative.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a battery 
bank?

I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
To: af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something like 
that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price will be.
It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown 
<ch...@wbmfg.com<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
$/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost 
effective method.

Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all kinds of 
other things to the local building inspection authority here to do a grid tie 
system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels and disconnects 
that are required here.

From: Craig Schmaderer<mailto:cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.  
https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Chuck McCown]

I have a grid tie inverter.  Reduces my bill.  A back up generator I much 
cheaper that batts.  

From: Sterling Jacobson 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 8:05 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

What’s the best battery system currently?

 

I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring them in 
48 volt to the inverter.

 

Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the array and 
using it at the house on inverter?

 

Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar as 
possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.

 

Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?

 

Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

 

$1 per watt for DIY systems.

That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3 times 
that or more.  

 

From: Sterling Jacobson 

Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

 

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.

 

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

 

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a battery 
bank?

 

I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.

 

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
To: af <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

 

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something like 
that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price will be.

It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.

 

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  $/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.

  Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost 
effective method.  

   

  Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all kinds 
of other things to the local building inspection authority here to do a grid 
tie system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels and 
disconnects that are required here.  

   

  From: Craig Schmaderer 

  Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM

  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

   

  Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.  
https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

 

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I've been at a lot of solar industry shows this year,  and I'm really not
convinced that there is anything really disruptive here.

I've seen better & faster mounting systems.  Grid tie inverters are a dime
a dozen.   Solar panels are cheap.What is the play here?

The idea is apparently to provide a plug and play kit of solar to wisps to
add to their offerings.   I'm not sure how this is going to work with the
number of hoops you have to jump through to do this in most localities.
Are the wisps going to hire a licensed electrician to do this and send
everyone to solar installer classes?
On Oct 14, 2015 7:51 PM, "Mathew Howard" <mhoward...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in
> install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll see
> once they actually start selling something.
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
>> $1.5 per watt, complete rooftop grid tie system, including micro
>> inverters,  mounting,  etc.
>>
>> I'm a bit out of touch,  but this didn't seem very disruptive to me.
>> On Oct 14, 2015 6:46 PM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>
>>> $1 per watt for DIY systems.
>>> That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3
>>> times that or more.
>>>
>>> *From:* Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.net>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a
>>> battery bank?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
>>> *To:* af <af@afmug.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something
>>> like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price
>>> will be.
>>>
>>> It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> $/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
>>>
>>> Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most
>>> cost effective method.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all
>>> kinds of other things to the local building inspection authority here to do
>>> a grid tie system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels
>>> and disconnects that are required here.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Craig Schmaderer <cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>>>
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>>
>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.
>>> https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

$1.5 per watt, complete rooftop grid tie system, including micro
inverters,  mounting,  etc.

I'm a bit out of touch,  but this didn't seem very disruptive to me.
On Oct 14, 2015 6:46 PM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> $1 per watt for DIY systems.
> That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3
> times that or more.
>
> *From:* Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.net>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
> Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.
>
>
>
> I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.
>
>
>
> But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a
> battery bank?
>
>
>
> I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.
>
>
>
> I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
> *To:* af <af@afmug.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something
> like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price
> will be.
>
> It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
> $/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
>
> Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost
> effective method.
>
>
>
> Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all
> kinds of other things to the local building inspection authority here to do
> a grid tie system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels
> and disconnects that are required here.
>
>
>
> *From:* Craig Schmaderer <cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>
>
>
> Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.
> https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Bill Prince]

It depends on whether you subscribe to the micro inverter philosophy or 
not. Micro inverters are great if you have a lot of treees (or 
something), and have some panels that are shaded a lot.


Personally, I like having the panels in the clear, and going for maximum 
voltage in the array.


bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

On 10/14/2015 7:38 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:


$1.5 per watt, complete rooftop grid tie system, including micro 
inverters,  mounting,  etc.


I'm a bit out of touch,  but this didn't seem very disruptive to me.

On Oct 14, 2015 6:46 PM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com 
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:


$1 per watt for DIY systems.
That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost
you 3 times that or more.
*From:* Sterling Jacobson <mailto:sterl...@avative.net>
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to
a battery bank?

I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
*To:* af <af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or
something like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near
what the real price will be.

It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

$/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not
discussed.

Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not
the most cost effective method.

Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics
and all kinds of other things to the local building inspection
authority here to do a grid tie system.  Not sure this would
fly.  Did not see all the labels and disconnects that are
required here.

*From:*Craig Schmaderer <mailto:cr...@skywaveconnect.com>

*Sent:*Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM

        *To:*af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Subject:*[AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their
website. https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Bill Prince]

The "best" battery may be somewhat subjective. I like the Tesla option, 
but it's not shipping yet. It would not work with the UBNT setup, as the 
battery uses 400+ volts; so it's more of the DC-to-inverter style of system.


I think I prefer the big DC systems, as it allows the use of much 
smaller gauge wires going from the the array to the inverter.


I also prefer the higher voltages that are common in Europe now (1000 
volts). Most areas in the US are 600 volts maximum (there are very few 
exceptions now). Going from 600 VDC to 1000 VDC can reduce the overall 
cost of the system by almost 50%.


bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

On 10/14/2015 7:05 PM, Sterling Jacobson wrote:


What’s the best battery system currently?

I remember buying a bunch of large batteries for our sites and wiring 
them in 48 volt to the inverter.


Is there a better method than that for storing solar power from the 
array and using it at the house on inverter?


Ideally it would be an inverter that took as much power from the solar 
as possible to power the house, then leaned on mains if it wasn’t enough.


Is there even an inverter that intelligent for homes yet?

Or are we just stuck with on/off use of the solar/batteries?

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:46 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

$1 per watt for DIY systems.

That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3 
times that or more.


*From:*Sterling Jacobson <mailto:sterl...@avative.net>

*Sent:*Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a 
battery bank?


I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
*To:* af <af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or 
something like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what 
the real price will be.


It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com 
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:


$/watt is the only thing that matters to me. Pricing was not
discussed.

Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the
most cost effective method.

Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and
all kinds of other things to the local building inspection
authority here to do a grid tie system. Not sure this would fly. 
Did not see all the labels and disconnects that are required here.


*From:*Craig Schmaderer <mailto:cr...@skywaveconnect.com>

*Sent:*Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM

    *To:*af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Subject:*[AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their
website. https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Mathew Howard]

I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you factor in
install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but I guess we'll see
once they actually start selling something.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> $1.5 per watt, complete rooftop grid tie system, including micro
> inverters,  mounting,  etc.
>
> I'm a bit out of touch,  but this didn't seem very disruptive to me.
> On Oct 14, 2015 6:46 PM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>
>> $1 per watt for DIY systems.
>> That is without battery.  A full battery system is going to cost you 3
>> times that or more.
>>
>> *From:* Sterling Jacobson <sterl...@avative.net>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>
>>
>> Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself installed.
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.
>>
>>
>>
>> But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and running DC to a
>> battery bank?
>>
>>
>>
>> I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a decent inverter.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
>> *To:* af <af@afmug.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>
>>
>>
>> I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,.. or something
>> like that, but I have no idea if that's anywhere near what the real price
>> will be.
>>
>> It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more than cheap.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
>>
>> $/watt is the only thing that matters to me.  Pricing was not discussed.
>>
>> Mounting looks good.  Normally integrated inverters and not the most cost
>> effective method.
>>
>>
>>
>> Like to know the pricing.  Also, you have to submit schematics and all
>> kinds of other things to the local building inspection authority here to do
>> a grid tie system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the labels
>> and disconnects that are required here.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Craig Schmaderer <cr...@skywaveconnect.com>
>>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>>
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.
>> https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Bill Prince]

The play is the cost of the labor. UBNT claims that you can install a 
9-panel array in 17 minutes. Hard to believe, but I've seen 20-panel 
arrays take a couple of days to install. The difference in labor is 
immense (if true). What's the cost of 2 days labor (probably 2 people)?


I'm not convinced. I might do my own installation up to the point of 
actually connecting the solar system to the grid; so maybe this is not 
relevant.


Around here, the big delta is the cost of permitting/inspections.

bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

On 10/14/2015 8:17 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:


I've been at a lot of solar industry shows this year,  and I'm really 
not convinced that there is anything really disruptive here.


I've seen better & faster mounting systems.  Grid tie inverters are a 
dime a dozen.   Solar panels are cheap. What is the play here?


The idea is apparently to provide a plug and play kit of solar to 
wisps to add to their offerings.   I'm not sure how this is going to 
work with the number of hoops you have to jump through to do this in 
most localities.   Are the wisps going to hire a licensed electrician 
to do this and send everyone to solar installer classes?


On Oct 14, 2015 7:51 PM, "Mathew Howard" <mhoward...@gmail.com 
<mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I think the idea is that it's supposed to be cheaper when you
factor in install costs... I have my doubts that'll work out, but
I guess we'll see once they actually start selling something.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account)
<li...@packetflux.com <mailto:li...@packetflux.com>> wrote:

$1.5 per watt, complete rooftop grid tie system, including
micro inverters,  mounting,  etc.

I'm a bit out of touch,  but this didn't seem very disruptive
to me.

On Oct 14, 2015 6:46 PM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

$1 per watt for DIY systems.
That is without battery.  A full battery system is going
to cost you 3 times that or more.
*From:* Sterling Jacobson <mailto:sterl...@avative.net>
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:37 PM
    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
        *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt
SunMax

Yeah, they said $1.50 a watt purchased, but do it yourself
installed.

I guess it’s nice having it converted on panel to AC.

But what’s this price vs. buying panels yourself and
running DC to a battery bank?

I want both. I want the panels and the battery with a
decent inverter.

I don’t care so much about selling back to the grid.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:27 PM
        *To:* af <af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt
SunMax

I think they mentioned something about under $1.50/watt,..
or something like that, but I have no idea if that's
anywhere near what the real price will be.

It looked to me like they're trying for simplicity more
than cheap.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Chuck McCown
<ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

$/watt is the only thing that matters to me. Pricing
was not discussed.

Mounting looks good. Normally integrated inverters and
not the most cost effective method.

Like to know the pricing. Also, you have to submit
schematics and all kinds of other things to the local
building inspection authority here to do a grid tie
system.  Not sure this would fly.  Did not see all the
labels and disconnects that are required here.

*From:*Craig Schmaderer <mailto:cr...@skywaveconnect.com>

*Sent:*Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM

    *To:*af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>

*Subject:*[AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this
on their website. https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/

[AFMUG] Did I miss Chucks opinion on Ubnt SunMax

[Craig Schmaderer]

Not sure when they released this, but I just saw this on their website.  
https://www.ubnt.com/sunmax/