Re: [agi] How do we hear music
When we listen to music there are many elements that come into play that create our memory of how the song goes. If you take a piece of instrumental music, you have the melody, a succession of tones in a certain order, duration of each note in the melody, timbre, or tonal quality, (guitar vs trombone), time, how fast the song is played. Phrasing, what part of the melody is emphasized using volume, change of tone quality etc... Is the melody played slurred with all the notes run together or staccato played with short notes. Too take it a step further how do we recognize a solo played by Miles Davis rather than Dizzy Gillespie playing the same song both on trumpet but sound completely different in style. How do we recognize when two different conductors direct the same music with the same orchestra but yet make it sound different? . On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Matt Mahoney matmaho...@yahoo.com wrote: deepakjnath wrote: Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? For the same reason that gray looks green on a red background. You have more neurons that respond to differences in tones than to absolute frequencies. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com -- *From:* deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.com *To:* agi agi@v2.listbox.com *Sent:* Thu, July 22, 2010 3:59:57 PM *Subject:* [agi] How do we hear music Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? cheers, Deepak *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
David, There must be a fair amount of cog sci/AI analysis of all this - of how the brain analyses and remembers tunes - and presumably leading theories (as for vision). Do you or anyone know more here? Also, you have noted something of extreme importance, wh. is a lot more than a step further. OTOH you've been analysing how we recognize the same, general tune in different, individual renditions. OTOH you've pointed out, we also recognize the INDIVIDUAL differences of/variatiions on the same genre/class - we appreciate the different ways Davis/Gillespie play as well as that they're playing the same tune. Now correct me but isn't the individual dimension of images of all kinds, almost entirely missing from AI? The capacity to recognize what makes individuals of a species individual, and not just that they belong to the same species. Isn't visual object recognition for example almost entirely focussed on recognizing general objects rather than individual objects - that that's an example of a general doll, rather than an individual particularly beaten up, or just slightly and disturbingly altered doll? No doubt AI can recognize individual fingerprints, but it's the capacity to recognize individuals as variations on the general - to recognize that he has a particularly sarcastic smile, or she has a particularly lyrical, fluid walk, or that that tune contrasts harmonious and discordant music (as per rap) in a distinctive way - that's missing, no? From: David Butler Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 3:44 PM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music When we listen to music there are many elements that come into play that create our memory of how the song goes. If you take a piece of instrumental music, you have the melody, a succession of tones in a certain order, duration of each note in the melody, timbre, or tonal quality, (guitar vs trombone), time, how fast the song is played. Phrasing, what part of the melody is emphasized using volume, change of tone quality etc... Is the melody played slurred with all the notes run together or staccato played with short notes. Too take it a step further how do we recognize a solo played by Miles Davis rather than Dizzy Gillespie playing the same song both on trumpet but sound completely different in style. How do we recognize when two different conductors direct the same music with the same orchestra but yet make it sound different? . On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Matt Mahoney matmaho...@yahoo.com wrote: deepakjnath wrote: Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? For the same reason that gray looks green on a red background. You have more neurons that respond to differences in tones than to absolute frequencies. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com -- From: deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.com To: agi agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 3:59:57 PM Subject: [agi] How do we hear music Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? cheers, Deepak agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
Mike, All chinese look the same for me. But for a chinese person they don't. Why is this? Is there another clue here? Thanks, Deepak On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote: David, There must be a fair amount of cog sci/AI analysis of all this - of how the brain analyses and remembers tunes - and presumably leading theories (as for vision). Do you or anyone know more here? Also, you have noted something of extreme importance, wh. is a lot more than a step further. OTOH you've been analysing how we recognize the same, general tune in different, individual renditions. OTOH you've pointed out, we also recognize the INDIVIDUAL differences of/variatiions on the same genre/class - we appreciate the different ways Davis/Gillespie play as well as that they're playing the same tune. Now correct me but isn't the individual dimension of images of all kinds, almost entirely missing from AI? The capacity to recognize what makes individuals of a species individual, and not just that they belong to the same species. Isn't visual object recognition for example almost entirely focussed on recognizing general objects rather than individual objects - that that's an example of a general doll, rather than an individual particularly beaten up, or just slightly and disturbingly altered doll? No doubt AI can recognize individual fingerprints, but it's the capacity to recognize individuals as variations on the general - to recognize that he has a particularly sarcastic smile, or she has a particularly lyrical, fluid walk, or that that tune contrasts harmonious and discordant music (as per rap) in a distinctive way - that's missing, no? *From:* David Butler dbut...@flomedia.com *Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2010 3:44 PM *To:* agi agi@v2.listbox.com *Subject:* Re: [agi] How do we hear music When we listen to music there are many elements that come into play that create our memory of how the song goes. If you take a piece of instrumental music, you have the melody, a succession of tones in a certain order, duration of each note in the melody, timbre, or tonal quality, (guitar vs trombone), time, how fast the song is played. Phrasing, what part of the melody is emphasized using volume, change of tone quality etc... Is the melody played slurred with all the notes run together or staccato played with short notes. Too take it a step further how do we recognize a solo played by Miles Davis rather than Dizzy Gillespie playing the same song both on trumpet but sound completely different in style. How do we recognize when two different conductors direct the same music with the same orchestra but yet make it sound different? . On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Matt Mahoney matmaho...@yahoo.comwrote: deepakjnath wrote: Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? For the same reason that gray looks green on a red background. You have more neurons that respond to differences in tones than to absolute frequencies. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com -- *From:* deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.com *To:* agi agi@v2.listbox.com *Sent:* Thu, July 22, 2010 3:59:57 PM *Subject:* [agi] How do we hear music Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? cheers, Deepak *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com -- cheers, Deepak --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
It seems to me that the hardest thing for AI to comprehend would be the evolutionary and social aspects of intelligence. What is good for today may not be good for tomorrow or vice verse. As an example, the acceptance of Stravinsky's The right of Spring as a great work of art/music. When it was introduced it was not accepted at all. It was ahead of it's time harmonically. The same can be said of a lot of visual art. It also could be said that a great many people today do not like Stravinsky, some like country music or Mozart. Does this mean that one is better than the other? How does AI differentiate and decide for itself what is good and what is bad in art, morals and culture? To me, art, morals/culture represent the social aspect of intelligence. The internet seems to be speeding up the evolution of social intelligence. (it at least represents, in an immediate and accessible way, the vast differences in opinion and culture that we have on this planet). Do we need to create thousands of AI's to be able to create social intelligence within AI? Would it be a dangerous thing to create a single AI and let it decide? On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote: David, There must be a fair amount of cog sci/AI analysis of all this - of how the brain analyses and remembers tunes - and presumably leading theories (as for vision). Do you or anyone know more here? Also, you have noted something of extreme importance, wh. is a lot more than a step further. OTOH you've been analysing how we recognize the same, general tune in different, individual renditions. OTOH you've pointed out, we also recognize the INDIVIDUAL differences of/variatiions on the same genre/class - we appreciate the different ways Davis/Gillespie play as well as that they're playing the same tune. Now correct me but isn't the individual dimension of images of all kinds, almost entirely missing from AI? The capacity to recognize what makes individuals of a species individual, and not just that they belong to the same species. Isn't visual object recognition for example almost entirely focussed on recognizing general objects rather than individual objects - that that's an example of a general doll, rather than an individual particularly beaten up, or just slightly and disturbingly altered doll? No doubt AI can recognize individual fingerprints, but it's the capacity to recognize individuals as variations on the general - to recognize that he has a particularly sarcastic smile, or she has a particularly lyrical, fluid walk, or that that tune contrasts harmonious and discordant music (as per rap) in a distinctive way - that's missing, no? *From:* David Butler dbut...@flomedia.com *Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2010 3:44 PM *To:* agi agi@v2.listbox.com *Subject:* Re: [agi] How do we hear music When we listen to music there are many elements that come into play that create our memory of how the song goes. If you take a piece of instrumental music, you have the melody, a succession of tones in a certain order, duration of each note in the melody, timbre, or tonal quality, (guitar vs trombone), time, how fast the song is played. Phrasing, what part of the melody is emphasized using volume, change of tone quality etc... Is the melody played slurred with all the notes run together or staccato played with short notes. Too take it a step further how do we recognize a solo played by Miles Davis rather than Dizzy Gillespie playing the same song both on trumpet but sound completely different in style. How do we recognize when two different conductors direct the same music with the same orchestra but yet make it sound different? . On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Matt Mahoney matmaho...@yahoo.comwrote: deepakjnath wrote: Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? For the same reason that gray looks green on a red background. You have more neurons that respond to differences in tones than to absolute frequencies. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com -- *From:* deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.com *To:* agi agi@v2.listbox.com *Sent:* Thu, July 22, 2010 3:59:57 PM *Subject:* [agi] How do we hear music Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? cheers, Deepak *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
Deepak, I have some insight on this question. There was a study regarding change blindness. One of the study's famous experiments was having a person ask for directions on a college campus. Then in the middle of this, a door would pass between the person asking directions and the student giving directions. What they found is that many people didn't realize the person had changed. BUT, 100% of the people that did notice the change were the same age or younger than the person they were observing! So, they did another experiment to rule out the different possible explanations. They took young people and dressed them as construction workers. Then, they performed the experiment again with similar age groups. They found that the people that had noticed the change before no longer did! Why? Well, the evidence leads us to believe that people pay much closer attention to the details of people they consider to be similar to them. So, we notice fewer details when we are observing people of a group we consider our out-group. In other words, we don't think we belong to the same group as the person we are observing. That is why asians all look the same to you :) I think the purpose of this is analogous to attention. We only learn about things we consider important. Or we only pay attention to things we think are important. So, for whatever reason, we think that out-group people are not as important to us, and we don't need to spend our brain's resources on remembering details about them. Dave On Jul 26, 2010 2:58 PM, deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.com wrote: Mike, All chinese look the same for me. But for a chinese person they don't. Why is this? Is there another clue here? Thanks, Deepak On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: David, T... -- cheers, Deepak *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
Deepak, No it's basically a distraction from the problem. With time and closer inspection, they will all look different. Correction, it IS useful. It probably tells us something about how the brain and an AGI must work First you start with a round blob shape for a class of objects - a face blob, and then you refine it and refine it, add more and more detail, for different individuals. What makes Chinese difficult to individuate at first, is they have a particular characteristic wh. would be highly distinctive for a Western individual - relatively slanted eyes. Imagine if a new race all had square jaws. You can't take your eyes off that feature at first. With time you learn to make adjustments for it, and notice the individual characteristics within the narrower eyes. Ditto elephants are hard to individuate at first because they all have these massively distinctive features of huge ears and trunks. You start general, and gradually individuate - but you have to individuate - your life depends on being able to distinguish individual characteristics as well as general forms. From: deepakjnath Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 7:56 PM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music Mike, All chinese look the same for me. But for a chinese person they don't. Why is this? Is there another clue here? Thanks, Deepak On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: David, There must be a fair amount of cog sci/AI analysis of all this - of how the brain analyses and remembers tunes - and presumably leading theories (as for vision). Do you or anyone know more here? Also, you have noted something of extreme importance, wh. is a lot more than a step further. OTOH you've been analysing how we recognize the same, general tune in different, individual renditions. OTOH you've pointed out, we also recognize the INDIVIDUAL differences of/variatiions on the same genre/class - we appreciate the different ways Davis/Gillespie play as well as that they're playing the same tune. Now correct me but isn't the individual dimension of images of all kinds, almost entirely missing from AI? The capacity to recognize what makes individuals of a species individual, and not just that they belong to the same species. Isn't visual object recognition for example almost entirely focussed on recognizing general objects rather than individual objects - that that's an example of a general doll, rather than an individual particularly beaten up, or just slightly and disturbingly altered doll? No doubt AI can recognize individual fingerprints, but it's the capacity to recognize individuals as variations on the general - to recognize that he has a particularly sarcastic smile, or she has a particularly lyrical, fluid walk, or that that tune contrasts harmonious and discordant music (as per rap) in a distinctive way - that's missing, no? From: David Butler Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 3:44 PM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music When we listen to music there are many elements that come into play that create our memory of how the song goes. If you take a piece of instrumental music, you have the melody, a succession of tones in a certain order, duration of each note in the melody, timbre, or tonal quality, (guitar vs trombone), time, how fast the song is played. Phrasing, what part of the melody is emphasized using volume, change of tone quality etc... Is the melody played slurred with all the notes run together or staccato played with short notes. Too take it a step further how do we recognize a solo played by Miles Davis rather than Dizzy Gillespie playing the same song both on trumpet but sound completely different in style. How do we recognize when two different conductors direct the same music with the same orchestra but yet make it sound different? . On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Matt Mahoney matmaho...@yahoo.com wrote: deepakjnath wrote: Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? For the same reason that gray looks green on a red background. You have more neurons that respond to differences in tones than to absolute frequencies. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com From: deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.com To: agi agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 3:59:57 PM Subject: [agi] How do we hear music Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? cheers, Deepak agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription agi | Archives
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
thanks Dave, This means that there is a system in the brain that decides on the details that we capture from our external environment. Something like an auto focus or a system that increases or decreases the resolution of the picture as it deems fit. We could call this an auto attention focusing system. It would be interesting to know what kind of priming helps the brain decide these kind of things. What is it that the brain needs to be exposed to get these prejudices. Does this affect our choice of mates. Are we at all free willed? or these filters make us do the things that we do? Cheers, Deepak On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:42 AM, David Jones davidher...@gmail.com wrote: Deepak, I have some insight on this question. There was a study regarding change blindness. One of the study's famous experiments was having a person ask for directions on a college campus. Then in the middle of this, a door would pass between the person asking directions and the student giving directions. What they found is that many people didn't realize the person had changed. BUT, 100% of the people that did notice the change were the same age or younger than the person they were observing! So, they did another experiment to rule out the different possible explanations. They took young people and dressed them as construction workers. Then, they performed the experiment again with similar age groups. They found that the people that had noticed the change before no longer did! Why? Well, the evidence leads us to believe that people pay much closer attention to the details of people they consider to be similar to them. So, we notice fewer details when we are observing people of a group we consider our out-group. In other words, we don't think we belong to the same group as the person we are observing. That is why asians all look the same to you :) I think the purpose of this is analogous to attention. We only learn about things we consider important. Or we only pay attention to things we think are important. So, for whatever reason, we think that out-group people are not as important to us, and we don't need to spend our brain's resources on remembering details about them. Dave On Jul 26, 2010 2:58 PM, deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.com wrote: Mike, All chinese look the same for me. But for a chinese person they don't. Why is this? Is there another clue here? Thanks, Deepak On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: David, T... -- cheers, Deepak *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com -- cheers, Deepak --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
Okay Mike, Let me write down my theory of this phenomenon. my intuition is that brain learns in steps and deltas. The brain takes in a fixed amount of only new information at a time. So when a person who doesn't have too much impressions (image memories) of a chinese person sees a chinese, He takes in the round face and the eyes etc which are new info to the seer. When the seer sees another chinese person the older chinese persons image comes back into the working memory. The new person is stored as delta of the other person. As the seer sees more and more people the basic structure is no longer new. The new features that get captured become the subtle variations from the basic structure. This ability to identify new information becomes a crucial function of the brain. Thus as time passes with images of chinese people, the seer will be able to capture subtle variation and recognize the person. People who are not musically trained find it difficult to distinguish between notes. But repeated listening to the notes engrave the structure of notes to the memory. And complex and subtle variations of the notes become apparent to the listener as the base notes are already stored in the memory and so no longer new. cheers, Deepak On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote: Deepak, No it's basically a distraction from the problem. With time and closer inspection, they will all look different. Correction, it IS useful. It probably tells us something about how the brain and an AGI must work First you start with a round blob shape for a class of objects - a face blob, and then you refine it and refine it, add more and more detail, for different individuals. What makes Chinese difficult to individuate at first, is they have a particular characteristic wh. would be highly distinctive for a Western individual - relatively slanted eyes. Imagine if a new race all had square jaws. You can't take your eyes off that feature at first. With time you learn to make adjustments for it, and notice the individual characteristics within the narrower eyes. Ditto elephants are hard to individuate at first because they all have these massively distinctive features of huge ears and trunks. You start general, and gradually individuate - but you have to individuate - your life depends on being able to distinguish individual characteristics as well as general forms. *From:* deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.com *Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2010 7:56 PM *To:* agi agi@v2.listbox.com *Subject:* Re: [agi] How do we hear music Mike, All chinese look the same for me. But for a chinese person they don't. Why is this? Is there another clue here? Thanks, Deepak On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote: David, There must be a fair amount of cog sci/AI analysis of all this - of how the brain analyses and remembers tunes - and presumably leading theories (as for vision). Do you or anyone know more here? Also, you have noted something of extreme importance, wh. is a lot more than a step further. OTOH you've been analysing how we recognize the same, general tune in different, individual renditions. OTOH you've pointed out, we also recognize the INDIVIDUAL differences of/variatiions on the same genre/class - we appreciate the different ways Davis/Gillespie play as well as that they're playing the same tune. Now correct me but isn't the individual dimension of images of all kinds, almost entirely missing from AI? The capacity to recognize what makes individuals of a species individual, and not just that they belong to the same species. Isn't visual object recognition for example almost entirely focussed on recognizing general objects rather than individual objects - that that's an example of a general doll, rather than an individual particularly beaten up, or just slightly and disturbingly altered doll? No doubt AI can recognize individual fingerprints, but it's the capacity to recognize individuals as variations on the general - to recognize that he has a particularly sarcastic smile, or she has a particularly lyrical, fluid walk, or that that tune contrasts harmonious and discordant music (as per rap) in a distinctive way - that's missing, no? *From:* David Butler dbut...@flomedia.com *Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2010 3:44 PM *To:* agi agi@v2.listbox.com *Subject:* Re: [agi] How do we hear music When we listen to music there are many elements that come into play that create our memory of how the song goes. If you take a piece of instrumental music, you have the melody, a succession of tones in a certain order, duration of each note in the melody, timbre, or tonal quality, (guitar vs trombone), time, how fast the song is played. Phrasing, what part of the melody is emphasized using volume, change of tone quality etc... Is the melody played slurred with all the notes run together or staccato
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
I'm not sure that's too diff. from what I'm saying. The interesting question is what does the brain use as its general class model against wh. to compare new individuals? It's unlikely to be a or the first individual face/object as you seem to be suggesting. Another factor here is that you interpret all these objects with your body - you understand other faces and bodies by projecting your own body into them - a remarkable example of that is the ability of a c. 2 month old infant to imitate the mouth movements of parents ( remember it hasn't seen its own mouth yet). From: deepakjnath Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 8:38 PM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music Okay Mike, Let me write down my theory of this phenomenon. my intuition is that brain learns in steps and deltas. The brain takes in a fixed amount of only new information at a time. So when a person who doesn't have too much impressions (image memories) of a chinese person sees a chinese, He takes in the round face and the eyes etc which are new info to the seer. When the seer sees another chinese person the older chinese persons image comes back into the working memory. The new person is stored as delta of the other person. As the seer sees more and more people the basic structure is no longer new. The new features that get captured become the subtle variations from the basic structure. This ability to identify new information becomes a crucial function of the brain. Thus as time passes with images of chinese people, the seer will be able to capture subtle variation and recognize the person. People who are not musically trained find it difficult to distinguish between notes. But repeated listening to the notes engrave the structure of notes to the memory. And complex and subtle variations of the notes become apparent to the listener as the base notes are already stored in the memory and so no longer new. cheers, Deepak On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Deepak, No it's basically a distraction from the problem. With time and closer inspection, they will all look different. Correction, it IS useful. It probably tells us something about how the brain and an AGI must work First you start with a round blob shape for a class of objects - a face blob, and then you refine it and refine it, add more and more detail, for different individuals. What makes Chinese difficult to individuate at first, is they have a particular characteristic wh. would be highly distinctive for a Western individual - relatively slanted eyes. Imagine if a new race all had square jaws. You can't take your eyes off that feature at first. With time you learn to make adjustments for it, and notice the individual characteristics within the narrower eyes. Ditto elephants are hard to individuate at first because they all have these massively distinctive features of huge ears and trunks. You start general, and gradually individuate - but you have to individuate - your life depends on being able to distinguish individual characteristics as well as general forms. From: deepakjnath Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 7:56 PM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music Mike, All chinese look the same for me. But for a chinese person they don't. Why is this? Is there another clue here? Thanks, Deepak On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: David, There must be a fair amount of cog sci/AI analysis of all this - of how the brain analyses and remembers tunes - and presumably leading theories (as for vision). Do you or anyone know more here? Also, you have noted something of extreme importance, wh. is a lot more than a step further. OTOH you've been analysing how we recognize the same, general tune in different, individual renditions. OTOH you've pointed out, we also recognize the INDIVIDUAL differences of/variatiions on the same genre/class - we appreciate the different ways Davis/Gillespie play as well as that they're playing the same tune. Now correct me but isn't the individual dimension of images of all kinds, almost entirely missing from AI? The capacity to recognize what makes individuals of a species individual, and not just that they belong to the same species. Isn't visual object recognition for example almost entirely focussed on recognizing general objects rather than individual objects - that that's an example of a general doll, rather than an individual particularly beaten up, or just slightly and disturbingly altered doll? No doubt AI can recognize individual fingerprints, but it's the capacity to recognize individuals as variations on the general - to recognize that he has a particularly sarcastic smile, or she has a particularly lyrical, fluid walk, or that that tune contrasts harmonious and discordant music (as per rap) in a distinctive way
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
My theory is that there is no general class. What ever you see new is a new class for you. If you see that again then this becomes a variation of the earlier class. Basically the brain is able to detect if something it sees in new and store it along with an emotion of excitement. This is why young people are excited to see things because many things are new for them. New experiences gives a kind of emotional high. This high helps to register the new experience as a class. Now if there are things that just variations of the new class then there is not too much excitement. The neurons initially are nascent and as it sees new objects the neurons become that memory. So when we see a car for the first time, the car neurons are created. Basic class. When we see an audi, our brain create a variation of car neuron. Each time u see a car, the car neurons in the brain get excited. Common things become boring. A star if he is seen always doesn't create that excitement anymore. This is why the stars who are over exposed lose their star value.. The emotions also play a huge role in forming memories. - This we will take up as another thread. The ability of the child to move its mouth comes from another phenomenon namely mirror neurons. - Its basically means that a visual input of a movement of the mouth creates memories that can be used to activate motor nerves to move the mouth. This is a feedback mechanism. Its similar to recording. When we record an mp3 song we can use it to play back. similarly when we hear a sound in our brain, the brain finds a way to reproduce the sound through the mouth. I know this is very confusing, I will try to explain this better in a later post. But the question is interesting. How does the baby know where its mouth is? Thanks, Deepak On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote: I'm not sure that's too diff. from what I'm saying. The interesting question is what does the brain use as its general class model against wh. to compare new individuals? It's unlikely to be a or the first individual face/object as you seem to be suggesting. Another factor here is that you interpret all these objects with your body - you understand other faces and bodies by projecting your own body into them - a remarkable example of that is the ability of a c. 2 month old infant to imitate the mouth movements of parents ( remember it hasn't seen its own mouth yet). *From:* deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.com *Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2010 8:38 PM *To:* agi agi@v2.listbox.com *Subject:* Re: [agi] How do we hear music Okay Mike, Let me write down my theory of this phenomenon. my intuition is that brain learns in steps and deltas. The brain takes in a fixed amount of only new information at a time. So when a person who doesn't have too much impressions (image memories) of a chinese person sees a chinese, He takes in the round face and the eyes etc which are new info to the seer. When the seer sees another chinese person the older chinese persons image comes back into the working memory. The new person is stored as delta of the other person. As the seer sees more and more people the basic structure is no longer new. The new features that get captured become the subtle variations from the basic structure. This ability to identify new information becomes a crucial function of the brain. Thus as time passes with images of chinese people, the seer will be able to capture subtle variation and recognize the person. People who are not musically trained find it difficult to distinguish between notes. But repeated listening to the notes engrave the structure of notes to the memory. And complex and subtle variations of the notes become apparent to the listener as the base notes are already stored in the memory and so no longer new. cheers, Deepak On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote: Deepak, No it's basically a distraction from the problem. With time and closer inspection, they will all look different. Correction, it IS useful. It probably tells us something about how the brain and an AGI must work First you start with a round blob shape for a class of objects - a face blob, and then you refine it and refine it, add more and more detail, for different individuals. What makes Chinese difficult to individuate at first, is they have a particular characteristic wh. would be highly distinctive for a Western individual - relatively slanted eyes. Imagine if a new race all had square jaws. You can't take your eyes off that feature at first. With time you learn to make adjustments for it, and notice the individual characteristics within the narrower eyes. Ditto elephants are hard to individuate at first because they all have these massively distinctive features of huge ears and trunks. You start general, and gradually individuate - but you have to individuate - your life depends
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 23:38 +0100, Mike Tintner wrote: Michael:but those things do have patterns.. A mushroom (A) is like a cloud mushroom (B). if ( (input_source_A == An_image) AND ( input_source_B == An_image )) One pattern is that they both came from an image source, and I just used maths + logic to prove it Michael, This is a bit desperate isn't it? It's a common misconception that high level queries aren't very good. Imagine 5 senses, sight, touch taste .. etc. We confirm the input is from sight. By doing this we potentially reduce the combination of what it could be by 4/5 ~ 80%. which is pretty awesome. Computer programs know nothing. You have to tell them everything (narrow AI) or allow the mechanics to find out things for themselves. They both come from image sources. So do a zillion other images, from Obama to dung - so they're all alike? Everything in the world is alike and metaphorical for everything else? And their images must be alike because they both have an 'o' and a 'u' in their words, (not their images)- unless you're a Chinese speaker. Pace Lear, that way madness lies. Why don't you apply your animation side to the problem - and analyse the images per images, and how to compare them as images? Some people in AGI although not AFAIK on this forum are actually addressing the problem. I'm sure *you* can too. -- From: Michael Swan ms...@voyagergaming.com Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 8:28 AM To: agi agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 03:45 +0100, Mike Tintner wrote: Let's crystallise the problem - all the unsolved problems of AGI - visual object recognition, conceptualisation, analogy, metaphor, creativity, language understanding and generation - are problems where you're dealing with freeform, irregular patchwork objects - objects which clearly do not fit any *patterns* - the raison d'etre of maths . To focus that , these objects do not have common parts in more or less precisely repeating structures - i.e. fit patterns. A cartoon and a photo of the same face may have no parts or structure in common. Ditto different versions of the Google logo. Zero common parts or structure Ditto cloud and mushroom - no common parts, or common structure. Yet the mind amazingly can see likenesses between all these things. Just about all the natural objects in the world , with some obvious exceptions, do not fit common patterns - they do not have the same parts in precisely the same places/structures. They may have common loose organizations of parts - e.g. mouths, eyes, noses, lips - but they are not precisely patterned. So you must explain how a mathematical approach, wh. is all about recognizing patterns, can apply to objects wh. do not fit patterns. You won't be able to - because if you could bring yourselves to look at the real world or any depictions of it other than geometric, (metacognitively speaking),you would see for yourself that these objects don't have precise patterns. It's obvious also that when the mind likens a cloud to a mushroom, it cannot be using any math. techniques. .. but those things do have patterns.. A mushroom (A) is like a cloud mushroom (B). if ( (input_source_A == An_image) AND ( input_source_B == An_image )) One pattern is that they both came from an image source, and I just used maths + logic to prove it. But we have to understand how the mind does do that - because it's fairly clearly the same technique the mind also uses to conceptualise even more vastly different forms such as those of chair, tree, dog, cat. And that technique - like concepts themselves - is at the heart of AGI. And you can sit down and analyse the problem visually, physically and see also pretty obviously that if the mind can liken such physically different objects as cloud and mushroom, then it HAS to do that with something like a fluid schema. There's broadly no other way but to fluidly squash the objects to match each other (there could certainly be different techniques of achieving that - but the broad principles are fairly self evident). Cloud and mushroom certainly don't match formulaically, mathematically. Neither do those different versions of a tune. Or the different faces of Madonna. But what we've got here is people who don't in the final analysis give a damn about how to solve AGI - if it's a choice between doing maths and failing, and having some kind of artistic solution to AGI that actually works, most people here will happily fail forever. Mathematical AI has indeed consistently failed at AGI. You have to realise, mathematicians have a certain kind of madness. Artists don't go around saying God is an artist, or everything is art. Only
RE: [agi] How do we hear music
-Original Message- You have all missed one vital point. Music is repeating and it has a symmetry. In dancing (song and dance) moves are repeated in a symmetrical pattern. Question why are we programmed to find symmetry? This question may be more core to AGI than appears at first sight. Chearly an AGI system will have to look for symmetry and do what Hardy described as beautiful maths. Symmetry is at the heart of everything; without symmetry the universe collapses. Intelligence operates over symmetric verses non-symmetric IMO. But everything is ultimately grounded in symmetry. BTW kind of related, was just watching this neat video - the soundtrack needs to be redone though :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dpRPTwsKJs Why does the brain have bi-lateral symmetry I wonder and why is the heart not symmetric? Some researchers say consciousness is both heart and brain. John --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 03:45 +0100, Mike Tintner wrote: Let's crystallise the problem - all the unsolved problems of AGI - visual object recognition, conceptualisation, analogy, metaphor, creativity, language understanding and generation - are problems where you're dealing with freeform, irregular patchwork objects - objects which clearly do not fit any *patterns* - the raison d'etre of maths . To focus that , these objects do not have common parts in more or less precisely repeating structures - i.e. fit patterns. A cartoon and a photo of the same face may have no parts or structure in common. Ditto different versions of the Google logo. Zero common parts or structure Ditto cloud and mushroom - no common parts, or common structure. Yet the mind amazingly can see likenesses between all these things. Just about all the natural objects in the world , with some obvious exceptions, do not fit common patterns - they do not have the same parts in precisely the same places/structures. They may have common loose organizations of parts - e.g. mouths, eyes, noses, lips - but they are not precisely patterned. So you must explain how a mathematical approach, wh. is all about recognizing patterns, can apply to objects wh. do not fit patterns. You won't be able to - because if you could bring yourselves to look at the real world or any depictions of it other than geometric, (metacognitively speaking),you would see for yourself that these objects don't have precise patterns. It's obvious also that when the mind likens a cloud to a mushroom, it cannot be using any math. techniques. .. but those things do have patterns.. A mushroom (A) is like a cloud mushroom (B). if ( (input_source_A == An_image) AND ( input_source_B == An_image )) One pattern is that they both came from an image source, and I just used maths + logic to prove it. But we have to understand how the mind does do that - because it's fairly clearly the same technique the mind also uses to conceptualise even more vastly different forms such as those of chair, tree, dog, cat. And that technique - like concepts themselves - is at the heart of AGI. And you can sit down and analyse the problem visually, physically and see also pretty obviously that if the mind can liken such physically different objects as cloud and mushroom, then it HAS to do that with something like a fluid schema. There's broadly no other way but to fluidly squash the objects to match each other (there could certainly be different techniques of achieving that - but the broad principles are fairly self evident). Cloud and mushroom certainly don't match formulaically, mathematically. Neither do those different versions of a tune. Or the different faces of Madonna. But what we've got here is people who don't in the final analysis give a damn about how to solve AGI - if it's a choice between doing maths and failing, and having some kind of artistic solution to AGI that actually works, most people here will happily fail forever. Mathematical AI has indeed consistently failed at AGI. You have to realise, mathematicians have a certain kind of madness. Artists don't go around saying God is an artist, or everything is art. Only mathematicians have that compulsion to reduce everything to maths, when the overwhelming majority of representations are clearly not mathematical - or claim that the obviously irregular abstract arts (think Pollock) are mathematical. You're in good company - Wolfram, a brilliant fellow, thinks his patterns constitute a new kind of science, when the vast majority of scientists can see they only constitute a new kind of pattern, and do not apply to the real world. Look again - the brain is primarily a patchwork adapted to a patchwork, very extensively unpatterned world - incl. the internet itself - adapted primarily not to neat, patterned networks, but to tangled, patchwork, non-mathematical webs. See fotos. The outrageous one here is not me. -- From: Michael Swan ms...@voyagergaming.com Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 2:19 AM To: agi agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music Hi, Sometimes outrageous comments are a catalyst for better ideas. On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 01:48 +0200, Jan Klauck wrote: Mike Tintner trolled And maths will handle the examples given : same tunes - different scales, different instruments same face - cartoon, photo same logo - different parts [buildings/ fruits/ human figures] Unfortunately I forgot. The answer is somewhere down there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eigenvalue,_eigenvector_and_eigenspace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_recognition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_fitting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_identification No-one has successfully integrated these concepts
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
You have all missed one vital point. Music is repeating and it has a symmetry. In dancing (song and dance) moves are repeated in a symmetrical pattern. Question why are we programmed to find symmetry? This question may be more core to AGI than appears at first sight. Chearly an AGI system will have to look for symmetry and do what Hardy described as beautiful maths. - Ian Parker On 23 July 2010 04:02, Mike Archbold jazzbo...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:59 PM, deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.comwrote: Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? Probably due to evolution? Maybe at some point prior to words pitch was used in some variation. You (an astrolopithicus etc, the spelling is f-ed up, I know) is not going to care what key you are singing Watch out for that sabertooth tiger in. If you got messed up like that, can't hear the same song in a different key, you are cancelled out in evolution. Just a guess. Mike Archbold cheers, Deepak *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com/ *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
Michael:but those things do have patterns.. A mushroom (A) is like a cloud mushroom (B). if ( (input_source_A == An_image) AND ( input_source_B == An_image )) One pattern is that they both came from an image source, and I just used maths + logic to prove it Michael, This is a bit desperate isn't it? They both come from image sources. So do a zillion other images, from Obama to dung - so they're all alike? Everything in the world is alike and metaphorical for everything else? And their images must be alike because they both have an 'o' and a 'u' in their words, (not their images)- unless you're a Chinese speaker. Pace Lear, that way madness lies. Why don't you apply your animation side to the problem - and analyse the images per images, and how to compare them as images? Some people in AGI although not AFAIK on this forum are actually addressing the problem. I'm sure *you* can too. -- From: Michael Swan ms...@voyagergaming.com Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 8:28 AM To: agi agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 03:45 +0100, Mike Tintner wrote: Let's crystallise the problem - all the unsolved problems of AGI - visual object recognition, conceptualisation, analogy, metaphor, creativity, language understanding and generation - are problems where you're dealing with freeform, irregular patchwork objects - objects which clearly do not fit any *patterns* - the raison d'etre of maths . To focus that , these objects do not have common parts in more or less precisely repeating structures - i.e. fit patterns. A cartoon and a photo of the same face may have no parts or structure in common. Ditto different versions of the Google logo. Zero common parts or structure Ditto cloud and mushroom - no common parts, or common structure. Yet the mind amazingly can see likenesses between all these things. Just about all the natural objects in the world , with some obvious exceptions, do not fit common patterns - they do not have the same parts in precisely the same places/structures. They may have common loose organizations of parts - e.g. mouths, eyes, noses, lips - but they are not precisely patterned. So you must explain how a mathematical approach, wh. is all about recognizing patterns, can apply to objects wh. do not fit patterns. You won't be able to - because if you could bring yourselves to look at the real world or any depictions of it other than geometric, (metacognitively speaking),you would see for yourself that these objects don't have precise patterns. It's obvious also that when the mind likens a cloud to a mushroom, it cannot be using any math. techniques. .. but those things do have patterns.. A mushroom (A) is like a cloud mushroom (B). if ( (input_source_A == An_image) AND ( input_source_B == An_image )) One pattern is that they both came from an image source, and I just used maths + logic to prove it. But we have to understand how the mind does do that - because it's fairly clearly the same technique the mind also uses to conceptualise even more vastly different forms such as those of chair, tree, dog, cat. And that technique - like concepts themselves - is at the heart of AGI. And you can sit down and analyse the problem visually, physically and see also pretty obviously that if the mind can liken such physically different objects as cloud and mushroom, then it HAS to do that with something like a fluid schema. There's broadly no other way but to fluidly squash the objects to match each other (there could certainly be different techniques of achieving that - but the broad principles are fairly self evident). Cloud and mushroom certainly don't match formulaically, mathematically. Neither do those different versions of a tune. Or the different faces of Madonna. But what we've got here is people who don't in the final analysis give a damn about how to solve AGI - if it's a choice between doing maths and failing, and having some kind of artistic solution to AGI that actually works, most people here will happily fail forever. Mathematical AI has indeed consistently failed at AGI. You have to realise, mathematicians have a certain kind of madness. Artists don't go around saying God is an artist, or everything is art. Only mathematicians have that compulsion to reduce everything to maths, when the overwhelming majority of representations are clearly not mathematical - or claim that the obviously irregular abstract arts (think Pollock) are mathematical. You're in good company - Wolfram, a brilliant fellow, thinks his patterns constitute a new kind of science, when the vast majority of scientists can see they only constitute a new kind of pattern, and do not apply to the real world. Look again - the brain is primarily a patchwork adapted to a patchwork, very extensively unpatterned world - incl. the internet itself - adapted primarily
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
No the answers are not there. That's complete rubbish; You won't be able to produce a point from your collective links that addresses any of the problems listed. You seem blithely unaware that these are all unsolved problems. From: L Detetive Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 3:54 AM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music So you must explain how a mathematical approach, wh. is all about recognizing patterns, can apply to objects wh. do not fit patterns. No, we mustn't. You must read the links we've posted or stop asking the same things again and again. The answers are all there. -- L agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
And that is the proof that you didn' -- L --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
And that is the proof that you didn't read anything (or didn't understand, more probably). But it was expected. -- L --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
[agi] How do we hear music
Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? cheers, Deepak --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
deepakjnath wrote: Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? For the same reason that gray looks green on a red background. You have more neurons that respond to differences in tones than to absolute frequencies. -- Matt Mahoney, matmaho...@yahoo.com From: deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.com To: agi agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 3:59:57 PM Subject: [agi] How do we hear music Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? cheers, Deepak agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
Schemas are what maths can't handle - and are fundamental to AGI. Maths are what Mike can't handle - and are fundamental to AGI. -- L --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
And maths will handle the examples given : same tunes - different scales, different instruments same face - cartoon, photo same logo - different parts [buildings/ fruits/ human figures] revealing them to be the same - how exactly? Or you could take two arseholes - same kind of object, but radically different configurations - maths will show them to belong to the same category, how? IOW do you have the slightest evidence for what you're claiming? And to which part of AGI, is maths demonstrably fundamental? Any idea? Or are you just praying? From: L Detetive Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 11:49 PM To: agi Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music Schemas are what maths can't handle - and are fundamental to AGI. Maths are what Mike can't handle - and are fundamental to AGI. -- L agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
Are you suggesting that I teach you some math? I learned it by myself, why can't you? Stop being lazy (and ridiculous), please. -- L --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
Mike Tintner trolled And maths will handle the examples given : same tunes - different scales, different instruments same face - cartoon, photo same logo - different parts [buildings/ fruits/ human figures] Unfortunately I forgot. The answer is somewhere down there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eigenvalue,_eigenvector_and_eigenspace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_recognition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_fitting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_identification revealing them to be the same - how exactly? Why should anybody explain that mystery to you? You are not an accepted member of the Grand Lodge of AGI Masons or its affiliates. Or you could take two arseholes - same kind of object, but radically different configurations - maths will show them to belong to the same category, how? How will you do it? By licking them? --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
You could add this one too, Jan: http://scholar.google.com.br/scholar?hl=enq=%22fourier-mellin+transform%22btnG=Searchas_sdt=2000as_ylo=as_vis=1 No more excuses for being lazy now. The answers for all proposed questions are inside those links. -- L --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
Hi, Sometimes outrageous comments are a catalyst for better ideas. On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 01:48 +0200, Jan Klauck wrote: Mike Tintner trolled And maths will handle the examples given : same tunes - different scales, different instruments same face - cartoon, photo same logo - different parts [buildings/ fruits/ human figures] Unfortunately I forgot. The answer is somewhere down there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eigenvalue,_eigenvector_and_eigenspace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_recognition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_fitting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_identification No-one has successfully integrated these concepts into a working AGI, despite numerous attempts. Even though these concept feel general, when implemented, only narrow or affected by combinatorial explosion have succeeded. revealing them to be the same - how exactly? Why should anybody explain that mystery to you? You are not an accepted member of the Grand Lodge of AGI Masons or its affiliates. Or you could take two arseholes - same kind of object, but radically different configurations - maths will show them to belong to the same category, how? How will you do it? By licking them? Personal attacks only weaken your arguments. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
No-one has successfully integrated these concepts into a working AGI, So I could say for ANY method. -- L --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
So you must explain how a mathematical approach, wh. is all about recognizing patterns, can apply to objects wh. do not fit patterns. No, we mustn't. You must read the links we've posted or stop asking the same things again and again. The answers are all there. -- L --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] How do we hear music
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:59 PM, deepakjnath deepakjn...@gmail.com wrote: Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in which we store memory? Probably due to evolution? Maybe at some point prior to words pitch was used in some variation. You (an astrolopithicus etc, the spelling is f-ed up, I know) is not going to care what key you are singing Watch out for that sabertooth tiger in. If you got messed up like that, can't hear the same song in a different key, you are cancelled out in evolution. Just a guess. Mike Archbold cheers, Deepak *agi* | Archives https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ | Modifyhttps://www.listbox.com/member/?;Your Subscription http://www.listbox.com/ --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
