DIS: Re: BUS: Journey
On 23 July 2010 21:14, Aaron Goldfein wrote: > On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 12:13, Geoffrey Spear wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 1:00 PM, comex wrote: >>> I CFJ on the statement: "comex has a Leadership Token." >> >> I disfavor this case. > > Me too. Also, comex, no. Don't do it. The whole Space Alert ruleset is > riddled with these kind of errors. We all implicitly understand how it > works, but I'm sure there are at least a dozen technical errors that > will cause all kinds of things to break, scams to be created, and so > on. > I'm sorry about that, and I think I knew beforehand that I wouldn't be able to create something that big that stood up to Agora's standards of rigour. Still, it was adopted, and now I'm just unsure about whether to view the inevitable CFJs as hindering the gameplay, or as a success in the quest of generating more gameplay... -- -Tiger
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Journey
On 23 July 2010 22:00, comex wrote: > On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Aaron Goldfein > wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 12:13, Geoffrey Spear wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 1:00 PM, comex wrote: I CFJ on the statement: "comex has a Leadership Token." >>> >>> I disfavor this case. >> >> Me too. Also, comex, no. Don't do it. The whole Space Alert ruleset is >> riddled with these kind of errors. We all implicitly understand how it >> works, but I'm sure there are at least a dozen technical errors that >> will cause all kinds of things to break, scams to be created, and so >> on. > > I'm interested in playing this game "fairly", but there are lots of > things that I can't even decide whether are scams. For example, make > a large map and the ship will run out of energy, then be useless at > the end; is that intended? > I think the biggest standalone problem is that a longer journey gives the enemy more threat points, so that an incredibly long journey can be riddled with a lot of threats. On second thought it would have been better the other way around: the shorter time you have to try and kill the Shuttle, the more resources should you be given to do so with. Running out of energy however is impossible; the Shuttle can generate 3 Charges per day by pushing the Reactor Recharge button in the Engine Room. -- -Tiger
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Journey
Tiger wrote: > I'm sorry about that, and I think I knew beforehand that I wouldn't be > able to create something that big that stood up to Agora's standards > of rigour. Still, it was adopted, and now I'm just unsure about > whether to view the inevitable CFJs as hindering the gameplay, or as a > success in the quest of generating more gameplay... Both, but the first will clear up quickly enough once we actually walk through a round or two. Speaking personally, I voted for it expecting that it'd need an initial bug-shake of this sort. If a large change will hinder one or more core mechanisms of the game until debuggged, *then* it's worth more careful debugging pre-adoption.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Journey
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010, Ed Murphy wrote: > Tiger wrote: > > > I'm sorry about that, and I think I knew beforehand that I wouldn't be > > able to create something that big that stood up to Agora's standards > > of rigour. Still, it was adopted, and now I'm just unsure about > > whether to view the inevitable CFJs as hindering the gameplay, or as a > > success in the quest of generating more gameplay... This isn't a bad thing per se. The only difficulty is doing a bug shakeout run (where bugs are dealt with by the intended spirit and claification) in an Agoran Rules environment when a bug might create a broader scam. Proto: Contests Yet Again - Very Simple, in one rule. A player CAN make a document into a Contest without 3 objections. The player doing so becomes the Contestmaster. The Contest SHOULD be a list of instructions for playing a type of game. The contest SHOULD be fair and generally allow all players to join and participate on an equal footing as governed by the instructions of the contest. A player CAN join a contest by announcement; this is the only way a player CAN join a contest. The contest SHOULD include instructions for determining winner(s) of the contest. When a player fulfills said conditions, the contestmaster SHALL announce the winners asap; such an announcement, if factually correct, causes the names players to fulfill the Winning Condition of Game Club. The contestmaster is the recordkeepor of all matters containing to the contest, and SHALL publish a weekly report of the contest listing all members and relevant activities and other records for the contest. The contestmaster is, prima facie, the adjudicator of contest instructions and disputes. Disputes SHOULD, in general, be resolved with the spirit of the instructions in mind. The contestmaster CAN change the instructions without 3 objections, but SHOULD only do so to improve gameplay or resolve disputes within the spirit of the original contest. If a court case arises with respect to the conduct of the contest or the application and interpretation of its instructions, the courts SHOULD give primacy of interpretation to the contestmaster's interpretations, SHOULD judge UNDETERMINED if the contestmaster has not been given a fair chance to suggest a resolution, and SHOULD only find against the contestmaster if e is found to be acting with arbitrary and capricious disregard for the Contest's instructions and/or spirit. Anyone CAN cause a contest to cease to be a contest provided e does so both with Notice and with 3 supporters. [is this the right phrasology for a combined with Notice/support requirement?]
DIS: Re: OFF: [IADoP] Organization Chart
On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 16:39 -0400, Wooble wrote: > From: System Administrator > Subject: OFF: [IADoP] Organization Chart Err, what? -- ais523
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [IADoP] Organization Chart
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 4:42 PM, ais523 wrote: > On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 16:39 -0400, Wooble wrote: >> From: System Administrator >> Subject: OFF: [IADoP] Organization Chart > > Err, what? That's what happens when you leave a shell logged in as root for wiztesting in nethack.
DIS: Re: BUS: The Job Isn't Getting Done
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Aaron Goldfein wrote: > I intend, with 4 supporters, to initiate an election to decide the > holder of the PSM office. comex's last weekly report as PSM was in > May. Considering we just had a PSM election that everyone ignored, this seems fairly unlikely to help.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Journey
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > Proto: Contests Yet Again - Very Simple, in one rule. > > A player CAN make a document into a Contest without 3 objections. > The player doing so becomes the Contestmaster. The Contest SHOULD > be a list of instructions for playing a type of game. The Capitalization of Contest shouldn't change here; also, "the contestmaster of that contest" perhaps. > contest SHOULD be fair and generally allow all players to join > and participate on an equal footing as governed by the instructions > of the contest. A player CAN join a contest by announcement; this > is the only way a player CAN join a contest. > > The contest SHOULD include instructions for determining winner(s) > of the contest. When a player fulfills said conditions, the > contestmaster SHALL announce the winners asap; such an announcement, > if factually correct, causes the names players to fulfill the > Winning Condition of Game Club. No need for the contestmaster here. Alternative: "The contest CAN and SHOULD define a Winning Condition as if it were a rule, except that the Cleanup Procedure occurs with the authority of the contest." ...I think I like yours better, actually. > The contestmaster is the recordkeepor of all matters containing > to the contest, and SHALL publish a weekly report of the contest > listing all members and relevant activities and other records for > the contest. "pertaining"; alt. "The contestmaster's weekly report contains all matters defined by the instructions to be part of eir weekly report, as well as the instructions." > The contestmaster is, prima facie, the adjudicator of contest > instructions and disputes. Disputes SHOULD, in general, be resolved > with the spirit of the instructions in mind. The contestmaster CAN > change the instructions without 3 objections, but SHOULD only do so > to improve gameplay or resolve disputes within the spirit of the > original contest. +1 for bringing back "equity". > If a court case arises with respect to the conduct of the contest > or the application and interpretation of its instructions, the > courts SHOULD give primacy of interpretation to the contestmaster's > interpretations, SHOULD judge UNDETERMINED if the contestmaster > has not been given a fair chance to suggest a resolution, and > SHOULD only find against the contestmaster if e is found to be > acting with arbitrary and capricious disregard for the Contest's > instructions and/or spirit. I bet ais523 will complain that this only affects how judges SHOULD judge and not the interpretation of the rules under normal circumstances. > Anyone CAN cause a contest to cease to be a contest provided > e does so both with Notice and with 3 supporters. [is this the > right phrasology for a combined with Notice/support requirement?] "With 3 Support and With Notice" is sufficient.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Journey
On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 17:35 -0400, comex wrote: > >If a court case arises with respect to the conduct of the contest > >or the application and interpretation of its instructions, the > >courts SHOULD give primacy of interpretation to the contestmaster's > >interpretations, SHOULD judge UNDETERMINED if the contestmaster > >has not been given a fair chance to suggest a resolution, and > >SHOULD only find against the contestmaster if e is found to be > >acting with arbitrary and capricious disregard for the Contest's > >instructions and/or spirit. > > I bet ais523 will complain that this only affects how judges SHOULD > judge and not the interpretation of the rules under normal > circumstances. Good catch. A rule that encourages incorrect judgements is a rather bad thing. -- ais523
DIS: Re: BUS: A wild asteroid appeared!
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 5:52 PM, comex wrote: > This should be pretty easy to defeat, but there are only two hours > before the Shuttle rams into it... Note, however, that arguably the start-of-week action happens first, so pressing buttons won't take effect until after the Shuttle is destroyed. ...Which, per CFJ 2819, is impossible, so it doesn't matter in any case; I'm facing an invincible shuttle.
DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: It was a good try
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 6:02 PM, Aaron Goldfein wrote: > Proposal: It was a good try (AI = 1, II = 1) > > Repeal Rules 2297-2302. > > End Proposal > > I pay a fee to make the above Distributable. AGAINST. Please propose instead to fix the gameplay, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Journey
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010, ais523 wrote: > On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 17:35 -0400, comex wrote: > > >If a court case arises with respect to the conduct of the contest > > >or the application and interpretation of its instructions, the > > >courts SHOULD give primacy of interpretation to the contestmaster's > > >interpretations, SHOULD judge UNDETERMINED if the contestmaster > > >has not been given a fair chance to suggest a resolution, and > > >SHOULD only find against the contestmaster if e is found to be > > >acting with arbitrary and capricious disregard for the Contest's > > >instructions and/or spirit. > > > > I bet ais523 will complain that this only affects how judges SHOULD > > judge and not the interpretation of the rules under normal > > circumstances. > > Good catch. A rule that encourages incorrect judgements is a rather bad > thing. How about something like "To be appropriate, such a judgement (as long as it involves interpretation of contest instructions and does not conflict with the rules) must take into account a contestmaster's interpretations..."
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Journey
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 6:22 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: >> Good catch. A rule that encourages incorrect judgements is a rather bad >> thing. > > How about something like "To be appropriate, such a judgement (as long as it > involves interpretation of contest instructions and does not conflict with > the rules) must take into account a contestmaster's interpretations..." How about "Contest instructions should be interpreted..." (referring to all players, ala Rule 217)?
DIS: To repair listlessness
Proto: Reinventing The List (AI-2)
Create the following rule, The List of Succession, Power=2:
The List of Succession is an ordered list of all current
players except the current Speaker. The first (1st) position
is the "highest" ("top") position on the list and the last (Nth
position, where N is the number of players on the list), is the
"lowest" ("bottom") position. The List of Succession is part
of the Herald's weekly report, and players' positions on the
list are self-ratifying.
When a person is moved forward ("up") P places on the list,
they are moved to be just above (immediately higher than) the
person P places ahead of em on the list - if there are not P
players higher than em, e is moved to the top of the list.
When a person is moved backwards ("down") P places on the list,
they are moved to be just below (immediately lower than) the
person B places behind em on the list - if there are not B
players lower than em, e is moved to the bottom of the list.
Any attempt to move the Speaker on the list fails, as e is not
on the list. The Speaker may only be added to the list as part
of an Ascension, described elsewhere.
Whenever a player other than the Speaker is not on the list, or
eir position on the list is found by a judge to be UNDETERMINED
or UNDECIDABLE, e is added to the list below the lowest player
whose position on the list is known.
Amend Rule 402 (Identity of the Speaker) to read:
An Ascension is initiated by announcing that a player (the
ascending player) other than the Speaker ascends to the role of
Speaker. A player CAN initiate an Ascension for a given
ascending player only when explicitly permitted by the rules.
When an Ascension is initiated, the current Speaker is removed
from office and placed on the bottom of the list of succession,
and immediately thereafter the ascending player becomes the
Speaker and is removed from the list of succession.
If no player has ascended in the previous 60 days, or the
current Speaker is inactive or the office is vacant, than any
player CAN initiate an ascension for the highest active player
on the List of Succession.
Destiny is a player switch tracked by the Herald with values
Unmarked (default) and Marked. When a player wins the game,
e becomes Marked. If no player has ascended in the previous 7
days, than any player CAN initiate an ascension for any single
specified Marked player. When a player ascends, e becomes
Unmarked.
[When multiple players win, they can cycle through speakership at
7-day intervals with order of winning not mattering]
Amend Rule 103 (Role of the Speaker) to read:
The Speaker is an imposed office and a figurehead of Agora. The
Speaker is a person who has proven themselves to be worthy of
the title, and for a time can direct Agoran government affairs.
If e has not already done so this month, or if e hasn't done
so since e gained office, the Speaker CAN Reshuffle Cabinet, by
announcement. A Cabinet Reshuffle announcement is a list of four
other players numbered 1-4 on the list. This announcement moves
the named players to positions 1-4 on the List of Succession.
Amend Rule 2255 (Cards) by changing its title to "The Cabinet"
Amend Rule 2255 to read:
A rule with a power equal to or greater than this rule may
associate a Position Name with numbered position on the List of
Succession. The player occupying a named position on the list
is considered to be the holder of the names position and have
the powers and duties described by the Rules for that position.
The holder of a so-named position is a Cabinet Member.
Additionally, a rule with a power equal to or greater than this
rule may associate an integer Influence Level with a specific
numbered position on the List of Succession.
The following positions on the List of Succession are named, and
have inidicated Influence Levels. All other positions on the
list have an Influence Level of 3. The Speaker has an Influence
Level of 3.
First Position: Justiciar.
Influence Level: 10
Position: The Justiciar may be granted particular abilities or
privileges associated with the judicial process as described
elsewhere in the Rules.
Second Position: Minister without Portfolio
Influence Level: 7
Position: The Minister without Portfolio CAN, With Notice,
perform any action permitted to an officer by virtue of
holding that office.
Third
DIS: Re: BUS: Log
ais523 wrote: > On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 18:44 -0500, Aaron Goldfein wrote: >> I press the Record the Captain's Log button. > > I intend, with 2 support, to initiate a mutiny. > (Basically: if nobody succeeds in getting the support, then Yally gets a > bonus, and wins if he manages it twice in a month. If I, or anyone else, > does manage to cause the mutiny, Yally is punished by not being able to > take further Space Alert actions this trip, and it doesn't matter who > initiated the mutiny.) OTOH, if the trip fails then the Enemy gains a Leadership Token (R2293: 1/3 of a win or -4 Rests or +7 ergs), whereas if the trip succeeds then everyone still aboard gains a capacitor (+1 erg the next week); so if it looks like the ship is running out of crew, then you may prefer to let the Captain have eir bonus in order to get yours / deny the Enemy eirs.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Log
On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 19:53 -0700, Ed Murphy wrote: > OTOH, if the trip fails then the Enemy gains a Leadership Token (R2293: > 1/3 of a win or -4 Rests or +7 ergs), whereas if the trip succeeds then > everyone still aboard gains a capacitor (+1 erg the next week); so if it > looks like the ship is running out of crew, then you may prefer to let > the Captain have eir bonus in order to get yours / deny the Enemy eirs. If someone's being selfish enough to try to record the log, it's likely they wouldn't help much anyway. Besides, under the current rules, it's theoretically impossible for the trip to fail; "damage" has no meaning, and the Shuttle exists platonically anyway. -- ais523
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Log
On Mon, 26 Jul 2010, ais523 wrote: > On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 19:53 -0700, Ed Murphy wrote: > > OTOH, if the trip fails then the Enemy gains a Leadership Token (R2293: > > 1/3 of a win or -4 Rests or +7 ergs), whereas if the trip succeeds then > > everyone still aboard gains a capacitor (+1 erg the next week); so if it > > looks like the ship is running out of crew, then you may prefer to let > > the Captain have eir bonus in order to get yours / deny the Enemy eirs. > > If someone's being selfish enough to try to record the log, it's likely > they wouldn't help much anyway. Current bugs aside, I can't see a situation where I wouldn't rather "punish the traitor" even it means helping the enemy somewhat. The balance is just off, and it behooves the players to take a hard line. It would be more interesting if it were a bit harder to eject the captain. For example, if you had to be on the bridge to declare or support mutiny, I could see that watching each others' backs against someone triggering the log when everyone else was busy elsewhere could add to the gameplay. As it is, not so much. -G.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Log
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 22:56, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > On Mon, 26 Jul 2010, ais523 wrote: >> On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 19:53 -0700, Ed Murphy wrote: >> > OTOH, if the trip fails then the Enemy gains a Leadership Token (R2293: >> > 1/3 of a win or -4 Rests or +7 ergs), whereas if the trip succeeds then >> > everyone still aboard gains a capacitor (+1 erg the next week); so if it >> > looks like the ship is running out of crew, then you may prefer to let >> > the Captain have eir bonus in order to get yours / deny the Enemy eirs. >> >> If someone's being selfish enough to try to record the log, it's likely >> they wouldn't help much anyway. > > Current bugs aside, I can't see a situation where I wouldn't rather "punish > the traitor" even it means helping the enemy somewhat. The balance is just > off, and it behooves the players to take a hard line. It would be more > interesting if it were a bit harder to eject the captain. For example, if > you had to be on the bridge to declare or support mutiny, I could see that > watching each others' backs against someone triggering the log when everyone > else was busy elsewhere could add to the gameplay. As it is, not so much. > > -G. Yeah. See. I'm not a traitor. I was just trying to stimulate this kind of original thought.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Log
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010, Aaron Goldfein wrote: > Yeah. See. I'm not a traitor. I was just trying to stimulate this kind > of original thought. If I had a shiny new spaceship my first thought would be to see what all the buttons did, too.
