Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly report

[Owen Jacobson]

On Jan 6, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Aris Merchant  
wrote:

> Hate to to point this out, and I may be wrong, but... This report appears not 
> to reflect the several proposals you pended. Might want to update that. So 
> everyone knows, I'm not planning to release my report till all of this is 
> sorted out. I don't want it to be invalid, so I'm at least waiting for the 
> CFJ.

Note the date on the replacement report:

> Secretary's Weekly Report
> 
> Date of this report: Thu  6 Jan 2017
> Date of last report: Sun 27 Nov 2016

My two pending proposals are in my draft for next week’s report:

> - previous report -
> Thu,  6 Jan 2017 05:20:50  Payday [Players: ais523 (+20), Alexis (+20),
>   aranea (+30), Aris (+20), Charles (+10),
>   G. (+40), Henri (+10), Murphy (+10),
>   nichdel (+40), o (+20), omd (+10),
>   Roujo (+10), Sci_Guy12 (+10),
>   Sprocklem (+10), Tekneek (+10),
>   the Warrigal (+10), Yally (+10),
>   天火狐 (+10)]
> - time of last report -
> Thu,  6 Jan 2017 05:35:22  o paid Agora 4 Shinies
> Fri,  7 Jan 2017 01:13:38  o paid Agora 4 Shinies

They’re not lost, though if you insist, I’ll reissue this week’s again with 
them included, instead.

> The list of transactions for the payday is very long. Maybe consider just 
> adding a reference? Not sure about Agora, but in the real world incorporation 
> by reference is permitted, and it would improve readability if you just had 
> the change to Agora's balance and that.

I had the same reaction, honestly. In practice, the rules require a really 
excessive amount of cross-checkable data, and should probably be modified. I’m 
also likely over-tracking: the weekly report could probably do without a 
shiny-by-shiny breakdown of payments made.

I’m using Ledger (http://ledger-cli.org ) to manage the 
data, which helps immeasurably - I could easily satisfy the need to “report” by 
posting the ledger file itself (plain text, as below) or a generated excerpt.

— 8< — example ledger — 8< —
2016-12-05 * Proposal 7838 enacted
Agora 1,000 Shinies
Proposal:7838

2017-01-06 * Payday
Player:ais52320 Shinies
Player:Alexis20 Shinies
Player:aranea30 Shinies
Player:Aris  20 Shinies
Player:Charles   10 Shinies
Player:G.40 Shinies
Player:Henri 10 Shinies
Player:Murphy10 Shinies
Player:nichdel   40 Shinies
Player:o 20 Shinies
Player:omd   10 Shinies
Player:Roujo 10 Shinies
Player:Sci_Guy12 10 Shinies
Player:Sprocklem 10 Shinies
Player:Tekneek   10 Shinies
Player:Warrigal, the 10 Shinies
Player:Yally 10 Shinies
Player:天火狐 10 Shinies
Agora   = 700 Shinies

2017-01-06 * Pend proposal "Not an Apple campsite"
Agora 4 Shinies
Player:o
— 8< — example ledger — 8< —

-o



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DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly report

[Aris Merchant]

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 6:00 PM Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 5:30 PM Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
> I retract the “report” for Thu  6 Jan 2017. It is incorrect. The following
> report contains corrections:
>
>
>
> Secretary's Weekly Report
>
>
>
> Date of this report: Thu  6 Jan 2017
>
> Date of last report: Sun 27 Nov 2016
>
>
>
>
>
> Recent events (all times UTC)
>
>
>
> - previous report -
>
> - time of last report -
>
> Thu,  6 Jan 2017 05:20:50  Payday [Players: ais523 (+20), Alexis (+20),
>
>   aranea (+30), Aris (+20), Charles
> (+10),
>
>   G. (+40), Henri (+10), Murphy (+10),
>
>   nichdel (+40), o (+20), omd (+10),
>
>   Roujo (+10), Sci_Guy12 (+10),
>
>   Sprocklem (+10), Tekneek (+10),
>
>   the Warrigal (+10), Yally (+10),
>
>   天火狐 (+10)]
>
>
>
>
>
> Personal Lockouts: None
>
>
>
>
>
> Global Lockout: No
>
>
>
>
>
> Balances:
>
>
>
>  700 Shinies  Agora
>
>   -1,000 Shinies  Proposal:7838
>
>  300 Shinies  Players
>
>   20 ShiniesAlexis
>
>   20 ShiniesAris
>
>   10 ShiniesCharles
>
>   40 ShiniesG.
>
>   10 ShiniesHenri
>
>   10 ShiniesMurphy
>
>   10 ShiniesRoujo
>
>   10 ShiniesSci_Guy12
>
>   10 ShiniesSprocklem
>
>   10 ShiniesTekneek
>
>   10 ShiniesWarrigal, the
>
>   10 ShiniesYally
>
>   20 Shiniesais523
>
>   30 Shiniesaranea
>
>   40 Shiniesnichdel
>
>   20 Shinieso
>
>   10 Shiniesomd
>
>   10 Shinies天火狐
>
> Hate to to point this out, and I may be wrong, but... This report appears
not to reflect the several proposals you pended. Might want to update that.
So everyone knows, I'm not planning to release my report till all of this
is sorted out. I don't want it to be invalid, so I'm at least waiting for
the CFJ.

The list of transactions for the payday is very long. Maybe consider just
adding a reference? Not sure about Agora, but in the real world
incorporation by reference is permitted, and it would improve readability
if you just had the change to Agora's balance and that.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Payday

[Owen Jacobson]

On Jan 6, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Jan 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> 
>> G. 4  50 Shinies
> 
> I'm afraid this fails in some way again, because I'm no longer
> Speaker and hold only 3 offices.  -G.

Augh, crud.

I think that’s easier to clean up than my original mess. I can’t (and wouldn’t, 
anyways) use the “I don’t have the authority, my office has the authority” 
trick a second time, but since only this one payment is incorrect, I think all 
I need to do is to correctly pay you, then reissue the Secretary’s weekly 
report again.

-o



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DIS: Re: BUS: Judgement in CFJ 3467

[Josh T]

もう一つの問題をご検討願います。「天火狐」には、不可欠な言葉遊びがあります。「あまつ」＋（「か＋ぎつね」）で、火を統御する天狐の意味であるが、「てんか」＋「ご」と異分析され、落雷を統御する霊狐になります。さらに、「てんか」の読みは「天下」まだは「天花」と書けることがあり、洒落が入り込ませます。「天火狐」の字訳は意味を置き去りにするから、お勧めしません。

しかし、あれこれ考えてみると「あまつかぎつね」と読みのほうが好まれています。別の解決策が見つかないならば、「あまつかぎつね」の字訳まだは翻訳を使てくれます。

天火狐

On 6 January 2017 at 14:08, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
>
> > 
> ===
> > 3467, called by ais523, 07 Nov 2016
> >
> >   天火狐 is a player.
>
> Judge's Evidence:
>
> Message sent to PF by Josh T :
>   皆様、
>
>   このゲームのプレイヤの一名になると思うために、以下のあだ名を使って登録してみます。
>
>   天火狐
>
>
> Judgement in CFJ 3467:
>
> There are two separate questions here.  The first is whether the
> person that sent a message from Josh T's email address is registered
> as a player, and the second is whether that player's Agoran nickname
> is 天火狐.  (note: the CFJ is timed so that the judgement does not
> consider self-ratification of the Registrar's report).
>
> By the excellently-written precedent set by Judge Maud in CFJ 1460
> (https://cfj.qoid.us/1460), by-announcement actions taken in non-
> English languages generally fail.  The relevant part of the judgement
> is clear and subsequent rule changes have not altered its
> applicability:
>
>  "...submitting a purported communication to an officer in a
>   language one has no reason to believe that officer understands,
>   and which, as it turns out, the officer does not understand,
>   violates the Gricean maxims
>
>   (4) Avoid obscurity of expression.  and
>   (5) Avoid ambiguity.
>
>   Such a purported communication does not communicate, and so it
>   would not be unreasonable to hold that the purported
>   communication is no communication at all.
>
>   I therefore hold that an Agoran player need not regard, nor be
>   required to act upon, a message written in a language e does not
>   understand, whether or not it is sent to a public forum."
>
> However, registration is a special case for communication.  An intent
> to register must be "reasonably" clear (R869). CFJ 1263 explored this
> issue (https://cfj.qoid.us/1263).  At the time of CFJ 1263, the rules
> required a potential new player to publicly "request" registration
> (though the request was automatically successful upon publication).
> CFJ 1263 found that saying "I hereby register" was close enough to a
> request, even though, by all grammatical considerations, it wasn't a
> request.  For standard by-announcement actions, "requesting" to do
> something would be very different than saying "I do something", but
> the difference was considered worth overlooking with the specific aim
> of not alienating new players.
>
> Interpretations of the registration clause over time (there have been
> many CFJs) have very much kept this "less nit-picky" tradition alive.
> In the context of modern translation engines, grammatical or other
> translation quirks are likely to be less confusing than the very real
> difference between a "request" and an "action" in English, and that
> was allowed by CFJ 1263.
>
> The translation given by Google Translate, as of the time of this
> judgement, is as follows:  "ladies and gentlemen, In order to think
> that it will be one of the players of this game, I try to register
> using the following nickname.  The sky fox".  This, I find, is
> "reasonably clear" for registration standards, so the person with the
> email address name Josh T did in fact register.
>
> However, does this mean eir appropriate Agoran nickname is 天火狐?
> Maybe not.  The important question for the English-dominated Agora is
> clarity; as a non-Japanese speaker, I'm likely, at a glance, to assume
> any three Japanese characters probably refer to that person, even if
> substitutions are made, therefore an Latin alphabet character set is
> necessary, I believe, for clarity.
>
> Also, by sending a message to this board, e would likely expect us to
> translate it.  It seems strange to translate the content, but not the
> signature.  Therefore, "the sky fox" is a more likely claim for a
> nickname than 天火狐.  On the other hand "天" may have other
> connotations ("heaven" is one given), therefore 天火狐 will always be
> the most accurate rendition of eir signature.  Also, there is a
> problem with 天火狐; these characters on their own, when plugged into a
> translator, detect as Chinese, and are apparently the symbols used for
> the software package Firefox.
>
> In choosing between these when interpreting the registration message,
> I would suggest a middle ground - a transliteration, as this allows
> clarity in English, and allows us to assert the Japanese context of
> the original message, without changing the precise meaning of the name.
> The Japanese transliteration of the name gives "ten higitsune", which
> seems clear.  Therefore I find that, by the registration message,
> "ten higitsune" registered, but it is inappropriate to say that 天火狐
> did so. 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Secretary] Payday

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> {{{
> Modify the rule “Economics” by removing the paragraph
> 
> The Secretary CAN cause Agora to pay any player or organization by
> announcement if doing so is specified by a rule.
> 
> Modify the rule “Payday” by replacing the first paragraph with
> 
> At the start of each month, if Agora's Balance is not 0 or less,
> the Secretary CAN and SHALL, within 7 days, cause Agora to pay
> each player 10 shinies, plus another 10 shinies for each office
> that player holds.
> 
> [“CAN and SHALL” appears to be the traditional wording for enabling and
> imposing a responsibility on an office. See rule 107, rule 955, rule 103
> for examples.]
> }}}

You also need to add a CAN to this part:
   If Agora's Balance becomes 0 or less before every player is paid,
   the Secretary SHALL continue to cause Agora to pay until every
   player has been paid.

But in general, why not make it automatic to transfer the right amount 
with the announcement, therefore the amount transferred is always "right" 
and if you make a mistake, it's just about correcting the Report (and
people can spend in the meantime):

Modify the rule “Payday” to read:

  In a timely fashion after the start of each month, if Agora's Balance
  is greater than 0, the Secretary CAN and SHALL initiate a Payday by
  announcement.  The initiation of a Payday causes Agora to pay each
  player 10 shinies, plus another 10 shinies for each office that player
  holds.

DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Payday

[Kerim Aydin]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> G. 4  50 Shinies

I'm afraid this fails in some way again, because I'm no longer
Speaker and hold only 3 offices.  -G.