DIS: [proto] Prohibited wins
Drafted this on discord, there was some disagreement about whether this
was a good idea at all, but I think this wording fixes the identified
problems:
Amend Rule 2449 by appending the following paragraphs:
{
The above notwithstanding, persons do not win the game if conduct in
violation of the rules was substantially, reasonably directly,
reasonably necessarily, and reasonably immediately, a cause of the
conditions causing them to win.
The above notwithstanding, persons do not win the game if they
previously won the game due to conditions arising out of the same
instance of the same set of circumstances.
A public document purporting to make a correct claim that one or more
persons won the game at the time of the message (or, at the time of the
message, satisfied conditions causing them to win the game) is a
self-ratifying attestation that those persons won the game at the time
of the message. A person SHALL NOT create such a public document unless
e reasonably believes that there is a non-frivolous argument for its
truth; doing so is the Class 6 Crime of Falsifying Laurels.
}
--
Jason Cobb
Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Obstructive Pooling] Deposit
On 3/24/22 17:37, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: > On Thu, 2022-03-24 at 17:28 -0400, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: >> I transfer all of my win cards and winsomes to ais523 for the sole >> purpose of depositing them into Obstructive Pooling. > Just to confirm, is this 1 Win Card and 3 Winsomes? > > (I'll put out an Accountant's Report if we're clear on how many assets > were moved, so that we don't lose track of who conceptually owns them.) > Yep, I believe so (it is according to last forbes and I don't think my holdings have changed since then). -- Jason Cobb Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason
DIS: Re: BUS: [Obstructive Pooling] Deposit
On Thu, 2022-03-24 at 17:28 -0400, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > I transfer all of my win cards and winsomes to ais523 for the sole > purpose of depositing them into Obstructive Pooling. Just to confirm, is this 1 Win Card and 3 Winsomes? (I'll put out an Accountant's Report if we're clear on how many assets were moved, so that we don't lose track of who conceptually owns them.) -- ais523
DIS: Re: BUS: The Revenge of Quine
On 2022-03-24 14:22, secretsnail9 via agora-business wrote: > This is the same issue as before. #0 gets cached and starts executing, #1 > is created, but then #1 cannot be cached because it was not created before > the execution of #0. I politely suggest you retract the cfj. I most likely will. I'll think about it today and answer later. -- juan
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal](@Treasuror) Birds v2
On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 10:28 AM nix via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> > Create a rule with title "Permits", power 1.0, and the following text:
> > {
> >
> >Beast Permitted is a secured negative boolean person switch,
> >tracked by the Avicultor in eir weekly report. A player with a
> >Beast Permitted switch set to True is 'Beast Permitted'.
> >
> >A player CAN buy a beast permit by paying a fee of 50 boatloads
> >of coins. When a player buys a beast permit, eir Beast Permitted
> >switch is set to True.
> >
> >A player CAN relinquish eir beast permit by announcement. When a
> >player relinquishes eir beast permit, eir Beast Permitted switch
> >is set to False.
> >
> >A player CAN renew eir beast permit by paying a fee of 25
> >boatloads of coins.
> >
> >When permits expire, the Avicultor CAN and SHALL review each
> >Beast Permitted player, with notice, in a timely fashion. When a
> >Beast Permitted player is reviewed, if e has niether bought a
> >beast permit nor renewed eir beast permit in the past 30 days,
> >eir Beast Permitted switch is set to False.
> >
> > }
>
This makes this game uninteresting to anyone who joined late or doesn't
> have a large excess of coins. Why pay to play a game you're already
> behind in? I don't know what this really adds to the gameplay either.
>
The bird permits don't prevent anyone from playing, and also don't add so
much to help you as to make the game unwinnable for other players. The game
is plenty interesting without a permit, I think, and the option to expend a
large amount of resources for a bit of an advantage in the game seems like
a fun balance of actual worth and the desire to win. And the notion of
"being behind" in the game is a bit silly to me, because of how exactly the
game works. I think you're underestimating how likely it is for the leading
birdholder to suddenly lose most of their birds, maybe even to someone with
no birds, evening the playing field greatly. The amount of coins needed to
win, and to get a permit, is indeed large, but the main fun of the system
comes from getting even just a single bird, and being able to play with it
and use its power, regardless of if you'll win this subgame specifically.
> Create a rule with title "Bird Migration", power 1.0, and the following
> > text:
> > {
> >
> >A player CAN buy bird food by paying a fee of 5 boatloads of
> >coins.
> >
> >A player CAN release a specified bird e owns, by announcement.
> >When a bird is released, it is transferred to Agora.
> >
> >Once per month, a Beast Permitted Player CAN transfer a
> >specified bird owned by Agora to emself by announcement.
> >
> >Once per month, the Avicultor CAN publish a migration notice by
> >announcement, specifying all necessary information and choices;
> >this constitutes eir monthly report. The Avicultor SHALL publish
> >such a notice in a timely fashion after the beginning of each
> >Agoran month.
> >
> >The number of times each player bought bird food in the previous
> >month is included in the migration notice.
> >
> >A bird not owned by the player(s) who bought bird food the most
> >times during the previous month is a Hungry Bird.
> >
> >For each Hungry Bird, a random choice among all players who
> >bought bird food during the previous month is included alongside
> >that bird in the migration notice.
> >
> >When a migration notice is published, Hungry Birds are
> >transferred to their corresponding randomly chosen players in an
> >order specified by the migration notice.
> >
> >If a bird being transferred to a player would cause that player
> >to have more birds than the number of times e bought bird food
> >during the previous month, that bird is instead transferred to
> >Agora.
> >
> > }
> I like this system in some ways, it's an interesting alternative to
> auctions. However, it's once again only beneficial to rich players. It
> doesn't matter how many birds I have, so if I have 1 or 5 if I pay the
> most for feed, I keep all of them, AND have a chance to gain others.
> There's no scaling cost or risk for accumulation.
>
>
You DON'T have a chance to gain others if you don't buy more bird food than
you have birds. The scaling cost comes from the upkeep of having to stay
the person with the most bird food each month, along with a minimum amount
of bird food each month if you want to have a chance of winning. The
minimum amount of bird food you need to buy in a previous month to win the
game is 10, otherwise you cannot get 10 birds. Risk increases as you get
more birds, too, because players are more likely to go for the most bird
food when you're close to winning. There's also the opportunity
DIS: @Assessor Re: @Promotor Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 8655-8656
On 3/24/22 14:44, nix via agora-business wrote: > On 3/20/22 20:48, nix via agora-business wrote: >> On 3/20/22 05:03, Aspen via agora-official wrote: >>> ID Author(s) AITitle >>> --- >>> 8655& Jason, nix 1.0 Restricted Petitions >>> 8656& Jason 1.0 Mathematical de-notation >> >> On both proposals I vote: FOR unless someone has voted unconditionally >> against, in which case I unconditionally vote AGAINST. >> >> -- >> nix >> Herald >> >> > > I change my votes to both be: FOR unless someone has voted > unconditionally AGAINST, in which case I vote AGAINST. > > -- > nix > Herald > Oops, meant to tag Assessor not Promotor here. Sorry Aspen. -- nix Herald
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] The End of Sets
On 3/24/22 12:49, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: > This should specify the order of the repeals – repealing two rules > without specifying the order doesn't work. (This is an important > mechanic, both for working out the resulting gamestate in cases where > it matters, and for catching accidental breakage that might repeal much > of the ruleset simultaneously.) True, this part is fixed in the upcoming revision thanks to some discord feedback. > I plan to vote against this proposal regardless, though; not only do I > think the Set economy is still functional, I'm very wary of proposals > to repeal the economy without putting a lot of thought into a viable > replacement. Historically, attempts to repeal the economy without > replacing it tend to cause Agora to fall into a multiple-month slump > (and we already just repealed Glitter). I think most people agree with the wariness overall. My thoughts are that this still leaves boatloads and stones, and there's 2 or 3 promising economic proposals floating around on list and in discord. At some point Sets has to move before those things happen. I also have a small economic proposal planned for later. -- nix Herald
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] The End of Sets
On Thu, 2022-03-24 at 16:21 +, nix via agora-business wrote: > Add a new P=3 rule titled "The Winds Die Down" with the following > text: > > When the winds die down repeal R2620 "Cards & Sets", R2623 "Popular > Proposal Proposer Privilege", R2629 "Victory Auctions", R2624 "Card > Administration", R2622 "Pending Proposals", R2651 "Proposal > Recycling", and R2653 "Buying Strength". > > When the winds die down, remove all text inbetween ~~ (including the > ~s) from all rules. > > When the winds die down, repeal this rule. This should specify the order of the repeals – repealing two rules without specifying the order doesn't work. (This is an important mechanic, both for working out the resulting gamestate in cases where it matters, and for catching accidental breakage that might repeal much of the ruleset simultaneously.) I plan to vote against this proposal regardless, though; not only do I think the Set economy is still functional, I'm very wary of proposals to repeal the economy without putting a lot of thought into a viable replacement. Historically, attempts to repeal the economy without replacing it tend to cause Agora to fall into a multiple-month slump (and we already just repealed Glitter). -- ais523
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal](@Treasuror) Birds v2
Large scale: As is, I'm against. Why is elaborated on in-line.
That said, I really enjoy the aesthetic of this game. I think between
this and hexeract you have neat conceptual ideas for games. It's just a
matter of matching that with compelling gameplay.
On 3/23/22 13:03, secretsnail9 via agora-business wrote:
> I submit the following proposal and pay a pendant to pend it:
>
> Title: Birds! v2
> AI: 1.0
> Author: secretsnail
> Coauthors: Jason, Telna
>
> Create a rule with title "Birds", power 1.0, and the following text:
> {
>
>A bird is a unique indestructible liquid asset defined by the
>rules. To define a bird, the definition must include:
> (i) A name unique among birds;
> (ii) A scroll, which is a document specifying the effects of the
> bird.
>
>Ownership of birds is entirely restricted to Agora and active
>players. If a bird is owned by the Lost and Found Department or
>in abeyance, it is immediately transferred to Agora.
>
>The Avicultor is an office, and the recordkeepor of birds.
>
>A player that is not Beast Permitted SHALL NOT transfer a bird e
>owns to another player; doing so is the Class 3 Crime of
>Unpermitted Beast Transit.
I believe you could make this entirely ineffective with CAN NOT. But
this way is also kind of funny.
>
> }
>
> Create a rule with title "Permits", power 1.0, and the following text:
> {
>
>Beast Permitted is a secured negative boolean person switch,
>tracked by the Avicultor in eir weekly report. A player with a
>Beast Permitted switch set to True is 'Beast Permitted'.
>
>A player CAN buy a beast permit by paying a fee of 50 boatloads
>of coins. When a player buys a beast permit, eir Beast Permitted
>switch is set to True.
>
>A player CAN relinquish eir beast permit by announcement. When a
>player relinquishes eir beast permit, eir Beast Permitted switch
>is set to False.
>
>A player CAN renew eir beast permit by paying a fee of 25
>boatloads of coins.
>
>When permits expire, the Avicultor CAN and SHALL review each
>Beast Permitted player, with notice, in a timely fashion. When a
>Beast Permitted player is reviewed, if e has niether bought a
>beast permit nor renewed eir beast permit in the past 30 days,
>eir Beast Permitted switch is set to False.
>
> }
This makes this game uninteresting to anyone who joined late or doesn't
have a large excess of coins. Why pay to play a game you're already
behind in? I don't know what this really adds to the gameplay either.
>
> Create a rule with title "Playing with Birds", power 1.0, and the following
> text:
> {
>
>Except as otherwise specified by the rules, the owner of a bird
>CAN play with it by announcement, specifying any values needed
>to interpret the bird's effects.
>
>When a bird is played with, the Rule defining that bird applies
>the effects in that bird's scroll, and then that bird is
>transferred to Agora.
>
> }
>
> Create a rule with title "Bird Migration", power 1.0, and the following
> text:
> {
>
>A player CAN buy bird food by paying a fee of 5 boatloads of
>coins.
>
>A player CAN release a specified bird e owns, by announcement.
>When a bird is released, it is transferred to Agora.
>
>Once per month, a Beast Permitted Player CAN transfer a
>specified bird owned by Agora to emself by announcement.
>
>Once per month, the Avicultor CAN publish a migration notice by
>announcement, specifying all necessary information and choices;
>this constitutes eir monthly report. The Avicultor SHALL publish
>such a notice in a timely fashion after the beginning of each
>Agoran month.
>
>The number of times each player bought bird food in the previous
>month is included in the migration notice.
>
>A bird not owned by the player(s) who bought bird food the most
>times during the previous month is a Hungry Bird.
>
>For each Hungry Bird, a random choice among all players who
>bought bird food during the previous month is included alongside
>that bird in the migration notice.
>
>When a migration notice is published, Hungry Birds are
>transferred to their corresponding randomly chosen players in an
>order specified by the migration notice.
>
>If a bird being transferred to a player would cause that player
>to have more birds than the number of times e bought bird food
>during the previous month, that bird is instead transferred to
>Agora.
>
> }
I like this system in some ways, it's an interesting alternative to
auctions. However, it's once again only beneficial to rich players. It
doesn't matter how many birds I have, so if I have 1 or 5 if I pay the
most for
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] The Hexeract
On 3/23/22 11:38, secretsnail9 via agora-business wrote: > I submit the following proposal: > > Title: The Hexeract > AI: 1.0 > Author: secretsnail > Coauthors: Jason pretty much covered the copy editing. So bigger picture thoughts: * I would vote AGAINST this as is. Ultimately there's too little interactivity (that isn't zero-sum) and the hexeract seems overly complex for gameplay that's actually a quite simple grind. The only interactivity really is allowing people to pass your fence without blocking them (which btw would be better as With Support than Without Objection, considering the timescale. This would also enable contracts and promises to facilitate it.). It feels like real-world play would be very individual. * Proposals this big should have a blurb at the top describing them. Your examples should also be blurbs attached to the proposal, not rule text. In fact, writing them as rule text creates the possibility that the rule says two different things (if the example and the mechanic don't actually match up), which can make the game more broken. * This might be more personal preference, but I'd divide this into multiple rules something like: Grids, The Hex & Moves on the Hex, Mountains & the Wincon, The other assets & the Hexor. It'd be more readable and easier to amend this way. But again, that's more-so style. -- nix Herald
