Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
I have a hard time believing that everyone would consistently over-shoot with their expectations of winning - why not under-shoot? Both you and Gaelan have brought up that people will be like that. I think it's naive to assume that everyone is going to be that optimistic, inaccurate in assessing their chances, or petty enough to fight for a wee little bit more of a percentage at the risk of being put aside because someone else who is a lot more agreeable would just take the simple even cut and replaces them. But yeah, if it's the same system of insta-winning, just determined in some other way (this is what your Skill system is referring to, yes?), it's the same problem but in a different flavor. Blognomic is a lot more cutthroat than Agora and this principle is very present (very similar to how it was in Diplonomic, I'd imagine, because its structure was very similar to BN), but there is a thin veil of idealism and hope that holds it back from being cold and obscene like the example here. Nomic, played totally straight, is not a very fun game. (imo) On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 7:16 PM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > On 8/24/2020 9:37 AM, Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion wrote: > > It's not as much of an issue that the payout is low, it's that if it's > > pulled off, you can't really win by any way other than this maneuver > > itself. (Aside from some obscure scam, but even then, it's going to be > very > > hard to pull off unless the initial rules already are flawed and > scammable) > > > > We could do a mental experiment. In a theoretical 6-player game with > > yourself included in it, you'll be in a random turn between 1st and 6th, > > and I'll control 4 players, and when it's my turn, I'll always propose > the > > insta-win proposal (a randomly selected player among the 4 win the game > and > > the game ends). > > > > What do you do? > > Propose a system of "skill" to determine the winner whereby some of your 4 > players believe they have a better than 1/4 chance of winning. You can > put it forward as a proto if the randomly-selected proposal is up first. > > (also: I agree this problem is very real it drove the Diplonomic endgame > to a certain extent). > > -G. > > >
Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
On 8/24/2020 9:37 AM, Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion wrote: > It's not as much of an issue that the payout is low, it's that if it's > pulled off, you can't really win by any way other than this maneuver > itself. (Aside from some obscure scam, but even then, it's going to be very > hard to pull off unless the initial rules already are flawed and scammable) > > We could do a mental experiment. In a theoretical 6-player game with > yourself included in it, you'll be in a random turn between 1st and 6th, > and I'll control 4 players, and when it's my turn, I'll always propose the > insta-win proposal (a randomly selected player among the 4 win the game and > the game ends). > > What do you do? Propose a system of "skill" to determine the winner whereby some of your 4 players believe they have a better than 1/4 chance of winning. You can put it forward as a proto if the randomly-selected proposal is up first. (also: I agree this problem is very real it drove the Diplonomic endgame to a certain extent). -G.
Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
It's not as much of an issue that the payout is low, it's that if it's pulled off, you can't really win by any way other than this maneuver itself. (Aside from some obscure scam, but even then, it's going to be very hard to pull off unless the initial rules already are flawed and scammable) We could do a mental experiment. In a theoretical 6-player game with yourself included in it, you'll be in a random turn between 1st and 6th, and I'll control 4 players, and when it's my turn, I'll always propose the insta-win proposal (a randomly selected player among the 4 win the game and the game ends). What do you do? On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 6:28 PM Cuddle Beam wrote: > I see that argument brought up a lot. > > So, sure. Let's assume that you decide not to participate in the cabal and > decide to wait and go do a different move because you're motivated to go > win in a different way. The cabal, having more people, would be a lot more > likely to have one person go ahead of you. > > They go and propose the instawin without you. What can you do? Nothing > lmao. You've lost. > > This is of course ignoring some obscure scam in the initial rules or > having them injected somehow, but it would have to somehow out-race the > first/a very early proposal ending the game immediately. > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 4:05 PM Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> >> >> > On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:32 PM, Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion < >> agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: >> > >> > First turn, after (necessarily) talking to a cabal of players to get it >> > passed: "Randomly choose a player among me and [the cabal]. That player >> > wins and the game ends." >> >> Admittedly, you have more experience playing "cutthroat" nomics than I >> do. That being said, I'm not quite sure if I would vote for a proposal like >> that. I guess it's a good deal iff you think your odds of winning "fair and >> square" (i.e. finding a way to have specifically you win, as opposed to >> getting lucky with a cabal proposal) are lower than 1/(size of cabal). So >> you'd need a majority of players to be pretty sure they were below average, >> which doesn't strike me as particularly likely. >> >> Gaelan > >
Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
I see that argument brought up a lot. So, sure. Let's assume that you decide not to participate in the cabal and decide to wait and go do a different move because you're motivated to go win in a different way. The cabal, having more people, would be a lot more likely to have one person go ahead of you. They go and propose the instawin without you. What can you do? Nothing lmao. You've lost. This is of course ignoring some obscure scam in the initial rules or having them injected somehow, but it would have to somehow out-race the first/a very early proposal ending the game immediately. On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 4:05 PM Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > > On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:32 PM, Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > > First turn, after (necessarily) talking to a cabal of players to get it > > passed: "Randomly choose a player among me and [the cabal]. That player > > wins and the game ends." > > Admittedly, you have more experience playing "cutthroat" nomics than I do. > That being said, I'm not quite sure if I would vote for a proposal like > that. I guess it's a good deal iff you think your odds of winning "fair and > square" (i.e. finding a way to have specifically you win, as opposed to > getting lucky with a cabal proposal) are lower than 1/(size of cabal). So > you'd need a majority of players to be pretty sure they were below average, > which doesn't strike me as particularly likely. > > Gaelan
Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
I think the interesting gameplay arises in passing rules in different cabals, such that you win without either having known. > On Aug 24, 2020, at 10:05, Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion > wrote: > > > >> On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:32 PM, Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion >> wrote: >> >> First turn, after (necessarily) talking to a cabal of players to get it >> passed: "Randomly choose a player among me and [the cabal]. That player >> wins and the game ends." > > Admittedly, you have more experience playing "cutthroat" nomics than I do. > That being said, I'm not quite sure if I would vote for a proposal like that. > I guess it's a good deal iff you think your odds of winning "fair and square" > (i.e. finding a way to have specifically you win, as opposed to getting lucky > with a cabal proposal) are lower than 1/(size of cabal). So you'd need a > majority of players to be pretty sure they were below average, which doesn't > strike me as particularly likely. > > Gaelan
Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
> On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:32 PM, Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion > wrote: > > First turn, after (necessarily) talking to a cabal of players to get it > passed: "Randomly choose a player among me and [the cabal]. That player > wins and the game ends." Admittedly, you have more experience playing "cutthroat" nomics than I do. That being said, I'm not quite sure if I would vote for a proposal like that. I guess it's a good deal iff you think your odds of winning "fair and square" (i.e. finding a way to have specifically you win, as opposed to getting lucky with a cabal proposal) are lower than 1/(size of cabal). So you'd need a majority of players to be pretty sure they were below average, which doesn't strike me as particularly likely. Gaelan
Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
Plain nomic played pragmatically to win is a horrible game imo. I suspect this will devolve into people making blocs or something like usual, and the secrecy element doesn't seem to do anything to change that. It seems to *actually encourage* making cabals, and the game can easily immediately end once you have a team that is a Proposal-passing majority. First turn, after (necessarily) talking to a cabal of players to get it passed: "Randomly choose a player among me and [the cabal]. That player wins and the game ends." But, anyways. I'm up for trying it out. (PSST, if someone wants to make such a cabal, count me in). On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 4:02 AM Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > I wrote this ruleset up a while ago, and there's been some interest when I > brought it up on the discord, so I figured I'd bring it up again. I'll set > it up as a free tournament soon, but wanted to get some feedback first. > That being said, my preference would be to do relatively minimal iteration > on the ruleset before we start playing, because, you know, nomic. > > Gaelan > > --- > > [TL;DR: Suber Nomic, but the ruleset isn’t published and proposals are > private. The intention is that you’d make your proposal and share the text > with just enough people to get a majority voting for it.] > > Initial Set of Rules > Immutable Rules > 101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the > form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in > effect when the tournament begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules > 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable). > > 102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are > mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from > immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless > of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless > of their numbers. > > 103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or > amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an > amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule > into a mutable rule or vice versa. > > 104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They > will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes. > > 105. Every player is an eligible voter. > > 106. All proposed rule-changes shall be sent to the Gamemaster before they > are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in > which they were voted on. > > 107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the > completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly > states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application. > > 108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The > numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper > way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal > is adopted. > > If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the > proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the > number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended > or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of > the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment. > > 109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be > adopted if and only if three quarters of the eligible voters, rounded up, > vote for it. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated > explicitly in a proposal to take effect. > > 110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable > rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the > purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not > "conflict" with that immutable rule. > > 111. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from > achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and > the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a > winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are > mutable) be amended or repealed. When a player wins, the Gamemaster shall > announce this fact, and the tournament ends with that player as the winner. > > 112. A player always has the option to forfeit the tournament rather than > continue to play or incur a tournament penalty. No penalty worse than > losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed. > > 113. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of > rule-changes must never become completely impermissible. > > 114. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes > are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or > repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or
Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
On 8/19/20 10:02 PM, Gaelan Steele via agora-discussion wrote: > I wrote this ruleset up a while ago, and there's been some interest when I > brought it up on the discord, so I figured I'd bring it up again. I'll set it > up as a free tournament soon, but wanted to get some feedback first. That > being said, my preference would be to do relatively minimal iteration on the > ruleset before we start playing, because, you know, nomic. > > Gaelan > > --- > > [TL;DR: Suber Nomic, but the ruleset isn’t published and proposals are > private. The intention is that you’d make your proposal and share the text > with just enough people to get a majority voting for it.] > > Initial Set of Rules > Immutable Rules > 101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the > form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in > effect when the tournament begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 > (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable). > > 102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are > mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from > immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of > their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of > their numbers. > > 103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or > amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an > amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule > into a mutable rule or vice versa. > > 104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will > be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes. > > 105. Every player is an eligible voter. > > 106. All proposed rule-changes shall be sent to the Gamemaster before they > are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which > they were voted on. > > 107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion > of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. > No rule-change may have retroactive application. > > 108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The > numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way > shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is > adopted. > > If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal > to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of > the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or > repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the > proposal to amend or repeal the amendment. > > 109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be > adopted if and only if three quarters of the eligible voters, rounded up, > vote for it. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated > explicitly in a proposal to take effect. > > 110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable > rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the > purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not > "conflict" with that immutable rule. > > 111. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from > achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the > means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner > when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be > amended or repealed. When a player wins, the Gamemaster shall announce this > fact, and the tournament ends with that player as the winner. > > 112. A player always has the option to forfeit the tournament rather than > continue to play or incur a tournament penalty. No penalty worse than losing, > in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed. > > 113. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of > rule-changes must never become completely impermissible. > > 114. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are > as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal > their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is > impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of > a rule. > > 115. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and > unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is > permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits > it. > > 116. All judgements about the legality of a move or the interpretation or > application of a rule shall be made by the Gamemaster. > > Mutable Rules > 201. Players may take turns at any time, but may not do so less than 23 hours > after a previous turn and must
Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
Updated version that consolidates all of my reporting duties into one daily message. Gaelan --- Initial Set of Rules Immutable Rules 101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect when the tournament begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable). 102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers. 103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa. 104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes. 105. Every player is an eligible voter. 106. All proposed rule-changes shall be sent to the Gamemaster before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on. 107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application. 108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted. If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment. 109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if three quarters of the eligible voters, rounded up, vote for it. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect. 110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule. 111. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed. When a player wins, the Gamemaster shall announce this fact, and the tournament ends with that player as the winner. 112. A player always has the option to forfeit the tournament rather than continue to play or incur a tournament penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed. 113. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible. 114. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule. 115. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it. 116. All judgements about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule shall be made by the Gamemaster. Mutable Rules 201. Players may take turns at any time, but may not do so less than 23 hours after a previous turn and must do so within 49 hours after the beginning of the tournament, becoming a player, or their previous turn. Parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points. 202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change, and (2) by the Gamemaster calculating a random number from one to six and adding that number of points to the player's score. A player takes a turn by privately communicating their intention to do so, along with the proposed rule-change, to the Gamemaster. When a player takes a turn, the Gamemaster shall announce player taking the turn and the number of points gained by the player. The Gamemaster shall also announce the number of the proposed rule-change and a cryptographic
DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
I wrote this ruleset up a while ago, and there's been some interest when I brought it up on the discord, so I figured I'd bring it up again. I'll set it up as a free tournament soon, but wanted to get some feedback first. That being said, my preference would be to do relatively minimal iteration on the ruleset before we start playing, because, you know, nomic. Gaelan --- [TL;DR: Suber Nomic, but the ruleset isn’t published and proposals are private. The intention is that you’d make your proposal and share the text with just enough people to get a majority voting for it.] Initial Set of Rules Immutable Rules 101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect when the tournament begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable). 102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers. 103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa. 104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes. 105. Every player is an eligible voter. 106. All proposed rule-changes shall be sent to the Gamemaster before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on. 107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application. 108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted. If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment. 109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if three quarters of the eligible voters, rounded up, vote for it. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect. 110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule. 111. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed. When a player wins, the Gamemaster shall announce this fact, and the tournament ends with that player as the winner. 112. A player always has the option to forfeit the tournament rather than continue to play or incur a tournament penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed. 113. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible. 114. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule. 115. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it. 116. All judgements about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule shall be made by the Gamemaster. Mutable Rules 201. Players may take turns at any time, but may not do so less than 23 hours after a previous turn and must do so within 49 hours after the beginning of the tournament, becoming a player, or their previous turn. Parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points. 202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one
Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
On 11/4/19 1:06 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: It also might be interesting to make a solid, unchangeable, "only one person can win" rule. Though that could end up like Diplomacy where a majority alliances "wins" but then it becomes a draw if you try to play it to a single winner. Oooh - I haven't done Diplonomic in a long time that's a good one (that's nomic where the initial "play" rules start out as Diplomacy. Murderous.) Based on a glance at the rules of Diplomacy, that sounds interesting. -- Jason Cobb
Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
On 11/4/2019 8:56 AM, Cuddle Beam wrote: I like this a lot but just a comment on how it may turn out. If we're playing nomic purely to win, running totally nude without our civilized clothing of morality and goodwill, it might be best to go full ham on "Benefit a Majority, Punish a Minority", or "bampam", which pops up quite a bit on Blognomic, which I think is very comparable to what this would be, a short game of nomic. This is exactly what happened in the Agora XX Tournament, too (which was pure a "start-from-scratch ruleset, blitz speed, play purely to win" nomic). The main interesting bit was conspiring to be in the majority (and hiding the majority from the minority). That's if you were in the majority, which in that case was a bit of a setup. If you were in the minority, you got the "playing along - bam suddenly the majority reveals itself and no one else ever had a chance". It might be interesting as a resetting round (so different majorities could win) but then it's basically blognomic? Nothing wrong with that. It also might be interesting to make a solid, unchangeable, "only one person can win" rule. Though that could end up like Diplomacy where a majority alliances "wins" but then it becomes a draw if you try to play it to a single winner. Oooh - I haven't done Diplonomic in a long time that's a good one (that's nomic where the initial "play" rules start out as Diplomacy. Murderous.) -G.
Re: DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
I like this a lot but just a comment on how it may turn out. If we're playing nomic purely to win, running totally nude without our civilized clothing of morality and goodwill, it might be best to go full ham on "Benefit a Majority, Punish a Minority", or "bampam", which pops up quite a bit on Blognomic, which I think is very comparable to what this would be, a short game of nomic. Basically, the first player could propose a rule where some (smallest possible) majority has a winner (points set to 200) asap-ly randomly selected by the Gamemaster. Boom, someone wins. Game over. (barring some obscure scam) Or if you want to do the inverse, you could propose that some (biggest possible) minority can't win. Ever. Or that all of their actions are now controlled by the opposing majority. Without much stopping people from being total fucking assholes, the game could become very degenerate, very fast. Which I'd find thrilling to watch. Just pointing out that it could reasonably happen. On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 6:03 AM Gaelan Steele wrote: > [TL;DR: Nomic, but the ruleset isn’t published and proposals are private. > The intention is that you’d make your proposal, and share the next with > just enough people to get a majority voting for it.] > > Initial Set of Rules > Immutable Rules > 101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the > form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in > effect when the tournament beigins. The Initial Set consists of Rules > 101-116 (immutable) and 201-216 (mutable). > > 102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are > mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from > immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless > of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless > of their numbers. > > 103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or > amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an > amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule > into a mutable rule or vice versa. > > 104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They > will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes. > > 105. Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must > participate in every vote on rule-changes. > > 106. All proposed rule-changes shall be sent to the Gamemaster before they > are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in > which they were voted on. > > 107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the > completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly > states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application. > > 108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The > numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper > way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal > is adopted. > > If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the > proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the > number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended > or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of > the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment. > > 109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be > adopted if and only if three quarters of the eligible voters, rounded up, > vote for it. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated > explicitly in a proposal to take effect. > > 110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable > rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the > purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not > "conflict" with that immutable rule. > > 111. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from > achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and > the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a > winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are > mutable) be amended or repealed. When a player wins, the Gamemaster shall > announce this fact, and the tournament ends with that player as the winner. > > 112. A player always has the option to forfeit the tournament rather than > continue to play or incur a tournament penalty. No penalty worse than > losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed. > > 113. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of > rule-changes must never become completely impermissible. > > 114. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes > are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or > repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of
DIS: Proto-tournament: Nomaoic
[TL;DR: Nomic, but the ruleset isn’t published and proposals are private. The intention is that you’d make your proposal, and share the next with just enough people to get a majority voting for it.] Initial Set of Rules Immutable Rules 101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect when the tournament beigins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-216 (mutable). 102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers. 103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa. 104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes. 105. Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule-changes. 106. All proposed rule-changes shall be sent to the Gamemaster before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on. 107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application. 108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted. If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment. 109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if three quarters of the eligible voters, rounded up, vote for it. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect. 110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule. 111. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed. When a player wins, the Gamemaster shall announce this fact, and the tournament ends with that player as the winner. 112. A player always has the option to forfeit the tournament rather than continue to play or incur a tournament penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed. 113. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible. 114. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule. 115. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it. 116. All judgements about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule shall be made by the Gamemaster. Mutable Rules 201. Players may take turns at any time, but not more than 23 hours after a previous turn by the same plater. Parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points. 202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change, and (2) by the Gamemaster calculating a random number from one to six and adding that number of points to the player's score. A player takes a turn by privately communicating their intention to do so, along with the proposed rule-change, to the Gamemaster. When a player takes a turn, the Gamemaster shall announce the number of the proposed rule-change, a cryptographic hash of its contents, and the number of
